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5:00 PM
@TinyGiant Everything was deleted, all comments. And no, expecting a mod to go through hundreds of comments to weed out the useful is not reasonable. If you want something to stick around, don't post it in a comment.
 
That's all I ask, I don't want it closed (well, I do, but I don't care about that argument), I just want a clarification for the people who aren't from the U.S. to be able to understand it more effectively.
 
It seems reasonable enough to me.
 
@Shog9 forced
 
5:00 PM
And from a site above all possible reproach, no less. Or, at least, one that will never be accused of being left-leaning.
 
user4639281
@terdon there is plenty of other constructive opposition that has been silenced. Including the fact that this room even exists
 
I have a coworker with more PTO than she is allowed to use (so the remainder will expire) who won't donate the overage to me, and I have a post on meta that, for all the wrong reasons, refuses to die
So I'm only here so I don't get fined
 
@TinyGiant What are you talking about? The comment linking to this room is still there. Other comments have been removed, yes, but that's standard operating procedure. If an answer defending an opposing viewpoint is deleted, then you can cry double standards. But deleting comments is normal and par for the course.
 
@TylerH rofl
 
5:02 PM
Actual order, in case you're interested ^
 
@MadaraUchiha Best
 
"but that's standard operating procedure" <-- then why are there still a load of comments on SE?
It isn't "Standard" to nuke all comments on sight.
 
because... not all questions are getting hundreds of comments
 
user4639281
@terdon this rooms existence serves only to silence those who disagree
 
Not all questions are closed by 120 different people also.
 
5:03 PM
@TinyGiant muffle. At most.
 
@TinyGiant Allowing people to freely discuss something serves to silence those who disagree? Um. OK.
 
PS since there are tons of mods and CMs here, can one of them consider blacklisting per meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/341843/…
 
@Shog9 I think this question has done more to devide then to unify
3
 
That produc placement :p
 
Meta has been a mess all day
 
5:04 PM
@terdon "Freely". You can discuss that in that corner over there. No, not on the plaza, just that corner.
 
user4639281
@JanDvorak again, welcome to /dev/null do you think anyone is going to read any of this?
 
@MadaraUchiha that takes me to the 'sign up for emails' splash page
 
@Magisch well, I mean, that's normal
 
@TinyGiant do you think I'm not?
 
@Tunaki had to get it some exposure...
 
5:04 PM
@TylerH There a link "continue to website" hidden in there
 
@Cerbrus Yes, just like we do for every single other question anywhere on the SE network.
 
@Tunaki and luckily, closing the tab and opening it a second time just goes straight there
 
But yes, this room has less visibility than comments would have
 
good guy annoying developer
 
@TylerH haha
 
user4639281
5:05 PM
@JanDvorak Ngreat so we all get to explain our objections to others who object in a place where no one who can do anything will
 
@terdon Nonsense. we don't limit discussion to chat
 
@TinyGiant isn't that how pubs work? Hey, I even have a beer with me.
 
@Cerbrus Uhm. No, it isn't. Comments are regularly cleared from posts and, in fact, thath happens as soon as they turn into a discussion.
 
@terdon More often, they're not.
"Moving comments to chat" isn't the rule. It's the exception.
 
@Cerbrus Only because no mod has noticed them. Please read the help center: stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/comment
 
5:07 PM
Not to mention deleting them on sight
 
user4639281
Again, if we object we are told to take our objections elsewhere where sensible people won't be exposed to our moral repugnancy.
 
Right at the bottom, under "when not to comment", it explicitly states that comments are not for discussion and that any discussion belong in chat.
 
Hmmm, did I just encounter a ? A recent answer was posted so I clicked the live notification bar to show it, and it showed below the 56 answers line but above the pagination buttons
 
user4639281
@terdon except that has never been true on meta
 
This ^ And asking a constructive question about the topic is "discussion"? Where does it say deleting comments is standard procedure?
Oh look, it's locked!
 
5:09 PM
!vote this isn't silencing
 
Finally
 
@Magisch eh, we've been through all this before. At least this time it's more interesting than "we're building something -> HOW DARE YOU!"
2
 
@TinyGiant Less so on meta, yes. But also there. Certainly when the comments reach the triple digits and are deteriorating into an endless debate.
 
@TylerH You've loaded a new answer?
@terdon That's the exception, even on meta.
 
5:10 PM
How long will it stay locked, though? The lock prevents new answers.
 
@Shog9 fair enough. You guys have to suffer the meta drama so it's your call anyways.
:D
 
@JanDvorak lock is for 24 hours right now
 
@Cerbrus yes I loaded a new answer and it appeared below the "N answers" line (correct behavior) but above the pagination buttons (incorrect behavior)
 
@JanDvorak Why does it needs new anwers?
 
user4639281
None of the actions taken by moderators and employees are representative of my stack overflow. I'm not even sure if I want to continue participating after what has gone on here.
 
5:11 PM
@Cerbrus it doesn't.
 
@TylerH Did it load'm below that, before?
@JanDvorak So, no problem :D
 
@TylerH i noticed that, but even under the pagination it would be incorrect (unless you are sorted by newest first)
 
@Cerbrus yes
@Sklivvz I am sorted by newest first
 
@TylerH Ah, bug!
 
Locking this now to give us a second to absorb all of the feedback here (and on other questions discussing this post), and all of that noise is also causing the SO mods a fair bit of grief that we should really own instead; an official response will be coming from me tomorrow. — Tim Post ♦ 1 min ago
3
 
5:12 PM
@Sklivvz afaik, it always loaded new answers at the top.
 
@Sklivvz Thanks. I can't wait to see the official resolution.
 
@EBrown Out of stars...
 
@Magisch Well, people also made it escalate. I have no idea why. Say that you disagree and move on. They will consider it next time and hopefully act accordingly. There was no point in focussing so much about whether the question should be closed/whatever.
 
That never happened to me before.
@bwoebi We said we disagreed with a majority of close votes.
Dinner...
 
@Cerbrus Yes, and then we iterated round that point ad absurdum
 
user4639281
5:14 PM
@bwoebi don't fight injustice, just say you disagree with the injustice and move on
 
@TinyGiant fighting injustice is fine if it's worth.
 
@TinyGiant Yeah... that works every time :-D
 
@bwoebi ad nauseam
 
This isn't worth it. This is doing more harm than it heals.
 
user4639281
So you're saying our fight is worthless?
 
5:14 PM
Isn't it?
 
@TinyGiant this particular fight is, yes.
 
user4639281
The whole question is doing more harm than it is good!
 
Yeah, we know that already ;-)
 
@bwoebi What is the good coming out of this?
 
They did it and fine. As long as they won't do that repeatedly, all fine.
It already is there and now it's too late to do a lot about it.
 
user4639281
5:16 PM
I disagree. The actions here are not fine and never will be fine.
 
@TinyGiant I didn't say the actions were fine.
 
The best we can do is to wait for the official resolution and hope it won't cause a mass exile from this site.
 
user4639281
The actions are what I'm fighting against. Posting the question was also an action
 
Dude... you're out of ammo, dude
 
user4639281
@JanDvorak It's all for naught anyways
 
5:18 PM
zen time!
 
@JanDvorak Personally, I haven't posted much on SO in a while and I think this might be the end of me participating with it. Whether or not anyone agrees with me is irrelevant, I never really 'hung out' with the community much, and I think I'll probably just go back to my solitude of working on my own stuff in private.
 
user4639281
It's not like anything we've said here will change anything
 
@TinyGiant Yes. But there are things which aren't worth fighting against, even if you disagree.
 
user4639281
@bwoebi thanks for belittling my position.
 
What was the good that was supposed to come out of this anyway?
 
5:19 PM
Zen time, please!
 
@Tunaki Well, that you have to ask Joel.
 
If anyone wants to do some good meta activity, you can help with opening the CV review queue...
 
@bwoebi Yes, so we're all discussing for nothing.
 
user4639281
@JanDvorak Screw zen, I'm out for blood.
 
@Tunaki right.
 
5:20 PM
@TinyGiant try a blood orange instead
 
user4639281
Nah, I'd rather the blood of those who act unjustly in the name of their personal political views.
 
RIP SO
 
user4639281
Exactly my issue. This divisive nonsense is ruining my favorite website
2
 
No, I mean, Stack Overflow will perish if you kill its CEO
 
The one place you could go to not see political posts and hate feuds on the internet, was here. Why did it have to come here as well?
 
5:26 PM
@TinyGiant The post was divisive, the reaction was divisive too though.
 
user4639281
@bwoebi the existence of the post is in and of itself divisive and offensive.
 
I'm divided on what's more divisive of the two
@TinyGiant your insistence to discuss it doesn't help seal the gap
 
user4639281
@JanDvorak I never said I was going to kyll him, just a little biting.
 
@TinyGiant it is not offensive per se.
@JanDvorak right.
 
user4639281
@bwoebi it's a gross abuse of the system and shows complete disregard for all those who would uphold the rules and policies necessary to make this website succeed
 
5:29 PM
What bothers me is all the comments were "off-topic" yet the main post itself wasn't? With an off-topic post, what do you expect from the comments?
 
user4639281
The rules are meaningless now @tricky they are whatever a mod or employee makes up as they go along
 
@TinyGiant stop it
You can resume when the official answer comes in and supports your view
 
user4639281
@JanDvorak It's fairly clear to me that Joel, the employees, and the moderators have no respect for the site policy, hence it must be meaningless
 
I am reminded yet again of this issue: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/297974/…
 
I wouldn't throw moderators, as a whole, in that bucket though.
 
5:36 PM
@bwoebi this is the second time, iirc
 
Where an answer said: "The owners and operators of Stack Exchange and Stack Overflow have made it amply clear that while we as users and contributors are not permitted to use the site and our audience here to promote our political and social beliefs, they, as the owners may."
 
@Shog9 as the post is no longer featured and locked now, it looks like the featured on meta in the sidebar on both main and meta got stuck. Can you do your magic to invalidate that sidebar cache?
 
@KevinB then I'm not aware of that first time
 
@Tricky12 Lemme explain that (I'll leave a note on meta later)... This blew up over the weekend; there were nearly 200 comments when I moved them to this chatroom, with the discussion becoming increasingly repetitious; there was also a separate meta discussion that covered the critical parts of the discussion (topicality).
Normally, discussing topicality in comments is fine, since folks can actually read the comments. But expecting readers to make sense of a thread that size is unrealistic, and it was becoming a burden to moderate (esp. given limited availability of mods and employees).
 
You need more mods then
 
5:40 PM
hmm... maybe even 3rd.
 
It would've been nice if the folks who got into it that first night had heeded the prompts to take it to chat when they were going back-and-forth for hours on end... But that didn't happen, and it's possible that the system broke due to scale there anyway.
This is why there's a "move comments to chat" option: for exactly these sorts of scenarios.
 
@Shog9 The only issue I really saw with the purging of comments was when one user asked for information on the order in question. Other than that I think they should have been purged to chat, since they were well over-exhaustive. (Watched some of the later reactions come in, lot's of unnecessary back and forth.)
 
@Shog9 I understand that, but I suppose for me I don't see what outcome was expected when you make a post like that. Obviously it was going to cause a lot of flare, that is the nature of politics.
 
@EBrown I'll go through them today after breakfast & see what I can salvage. Didn't have time yesterday.
 
@Shog9 It's fine, I found that user on another question/answer combo and mentioned to them since the pings auto-delete as well.
 
5:42 PM
@Tricky12 I'm not sure what you're getting at; I can't exactly throw up my hands and say, "well, let it all go to hell"
 
I just wanted to help people find the exact text so they were more appropriately informed. While I disagreed with the fact it was posted here and the opinion of Joel, I do respect the fact that he wants to vent frustration. This was going to become a problem for SO at some point, better he post it than some random who gets flamed into tarnation from it.
At least this way the community is more encouraged to respond, regardless of opinion.
 
@Shog9 I didn't mean any post you made, I meant the original post as a whole. The bottom line for me is that it seems unfair that had anyone else made that post, or similar, it would have been deleted immediately. That seemed to be a large part of the repetitiveness of course.
 
yeah; I suspect that's a lot of the motivation there - better one big fire than thousands of little ones
 
i mean, closing works,
 
@Shog9 Aye! :) I think it warrants discussion, at least this way 'the community' can blame the owner instead of some other user. The current discussion is 'why is Joel and co. allowed to "abuse" the system like this' where the other one would have been a lot of bashing of whichever unfortunate user asked about it first.
 
5:45 PM
@Tricky12 so, that's an interesting point, because of course folks do post inflammatory stuff on a fairly regular basis and while most of it does eventually get deleted it's not nearly so clear-cut as you make it sound.
 
The purpose of the SE/SO company (do you prefer SO now?) is to take the brunt of political decisions like this.
 
We all remember the ones that are just... execrably bad... and get nothing but downvotes
But... Well, lemme find an example
279
Q: SO careers should stop accepting business from predatory employers

Pekka 웃There is strong evidence that Crossover is an employer most of us would not touch with a pole. It's the pointy-haired boss, on steroids and with nuclear weapons. Read the stuff (e.g. on Quora), subtract all the hearsay, BS, and disgruntled interviewees and the picture is still horrific. Employe...

 
@Shog9 I did have a couple questions I came up with during this whole endeavor about the network/tech side if you (or someone else) could answer/comment on them.
 
I remember a survey posted on meta that resulted in a couple declined spam flag and ended up in the positive numbers.
 
They're entirely unrelated to the issue in that meta post (or any issue derived from it), they're either proposals for features (based on what I would have liked to see from the technical side of the network with that meta post) or potential bugs (which may not be).
 
5:49 PM
yeah; so what I'm kinda getting at here is... We don't actually know how this would've panned out if anyone else had posted it
 
Aye, could have been good, could have been bad. If Joel posts it the result is very predictable.
 
There's this, but it's been affected my the wake of Joel's post: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/342561/…
 
right. The effect works both ways: Joel gets a lot more attention and good will because of who he is, but he also knows how to write such that he gets that attention, which is why he is who he is. Meanwhile, folks who might've just shrugged it off have in some cases stuck to this because of the perception that it's being treated specially (which of course it is, but... See previous sentence)
 
I thought most of his views came from Twitter
 
Indeed. While there's a lot of positive and negative backlash this allows the community to gather together and duke it out over one central message, where it's easy to gather and disseminate the information. It makes it easier for mods to filter out potentially unwanted content, especially in the case of extraordinarily long comment discussions on the question.
 
5:54 PM
@JanDvorak I'm sure some did... But it was also on the sidebar of just about every page on SO for two days, so...
 
Good point
 
@EBrown Also means we can have a chatroom like this instead of a thousand little comment threads
 
@EBrown Also, easier != easy. Sorting through long comment threads is tedious work and far from trivial. I've never had to deal with hundreds, but it's already hard enough at dozens.
 
I have a colorization script for the chat, but not for the comment threads
 
Don't get me wrong, this'll still blow up on Skeptics and Politics, since it's actually their bread & butter...
 
5:55 PM
The comment threads there were actually crashing Chrome for me
 
@Shog9 And it means that if users start getting overly hostile, one location to deal with instead of dozens.
 
At Skeptics there would have had have to be a concrete claim to verify or refute
 
@EBrown yeah - which has already come in handy several times
 
@Shog9 That I can believe. If you find a troublesome user (or a user who posts a message which is particularly aggressive, but only out of frustration) less context is needed: you know what the topic at hand should be, and can judge quicker and easier.
 
@JanDvorak to not be shut down, yes. Doesn't mean stuff wouldn't be / hasn't been / isn't posted, moderators accused of favoritism, etc... Essentially this whole discussion in a microcosm.
 
5:58 PM
True
 
@Shog I'm looking forward to the official response tomorrow. I assume Tim won't be taking on the task all by himself, so here's my input to the community team: please no sugar coating, and please address the entire situation, including how employees used their moderation powers. It'll be important in order to win back the trust of the disgruntled part of the community.
 
I can forgive the team, but only if they ask for forgiveness
 
@EBrown yeah, the last bit is particularly nice, since there are outlets for the frustration. Folks can post their opinions on meta, talk about it in chat, etc. When the context is, for example, a narrow question on Politics, there's no clear outlet: posting your opinion is straight-up off-topic, and so things tend to just escalate.
 
I don't know what information you see when handling flags (I have probably seen screenshots, but I never committed them to memory) but I'm sure you have at least the basic minimal information: Username, comment, question title, poster name (asker on the question, answerer on the answer) and the person who flagged it. Just seeing the title 'Time to take a stand' means you know what the topic is, and can handle flags faster and more effectively, and know what else to investigate for.
@Shog9 I've never used Skeptics or Politics, but I'll take your word for it. :)
 
@EBrown Factor in the fact that SO mods need to deal with quite literally hundreds of flags a day.
 
6:02 PM
@terdon I think it's more like thousands a day.
 
A larger mod base would help
 
From what I was told by one of the employees, they get hundreds and thousands of contact requests, meta posts, etc daily that they have to handle.
 
@EBrown Nah, it's hundreds but that's bad enough.
Hundreds per mod, mind you.
 
Ah, I was talking in general.
 
I think I remember it being something like ~200 or so. I may well be wrong though.
 
6:05 PM
I wish I could gather that data through the API... grumbles
 
154
Q: 2016: a year in moderation

Shog9 This came up in an internal discussion with some Stack Overflow moderators earlier today: even those of you who are pretty familiar with how this site works often have no idea how often various actions are performed. I've previously tried to address this with a report on deletion and a tool f...

 
@Shog9 That doesn't help what I want to do...lol
 
this conversation seems to be bleeding into other areas of the site, (other chatrooms, as an example); where people are expressing their frustration with being exposed to political discourse.
 
@Claies try to calm it down
 
> Escalations to the CM team: 925
Really?
 
6:11 PM
@JanDvorak it is still relatively calm, but it's a statement of how poorly this is being managed.
 
That's ~3 a day.
 
@Claies That always happens
It's not a one-time thing
 
@EBrown that's this:
53
A: Can we have a moderator only "flag for community team/developer attention" link on posts?

Shog9 Note: The tool has been updated, and now looks like this. Not calling this complete just yet, but we've added something toward this end: This is available from the "mod" menu on user pages, and generates a ticket in our internal queue that'll look something like this: You can use this ...

 
People always discuss stuff that goes on meta in chats
Especially when it upsets them.
 
@Shog9 Huh....when you say 'Community' handled a flag, does that mean enough users flagged it that it auto-deleted/whatevered the flagged message?
Ah, footnotes.
> This includes comments deleted by their own authors (which also account for some number of handled comment flags).
I'm assuming that when a user deletes their own comment regardless of why it was flagged there are no penalties?
 
6:17 PM
@EBrown no penalties for deleted comments anyway
 
@Shog9 Now, I have a question about that, if you wouldn't mind me asking. (It's a scenario I'm curious on.)
 
@EBrown hmm?
 
@Shog9 If a user posts a comment, and it's flagged as spam 4 times (I believe 5 is required for auto-deletion, but if it's 3 then assume it's flagged 2 times) and the author deletes it, then reposts it, and repeats this process multiple times, does that throw a flag for mods/CM's to see?
(Just curious, I have no intention of doing this, but I always wonder how the algorithms you employ would handle some more dynamic situations.)
 
3 red flags on a comment is enough, six on posts
At least probably
 
@EBrown there are auto-flags that kick in here, but the thresholds are fairly high
 
6:22 PM
@Shog9 Ah, alright. Just curious. :)
 
Should there be an autoflag when a user post the same comment to the same post more than once?
 
6:48 PM
@JanDvorak There should, and probably is
 

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