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1:03 PM
It's because it breaks people's code without having an large upside.
 
git status @SOChat Y U NO WORK AS CONSOLE???
 
rm -rf *
 
@Danack they who used those are not people
 
@Danack <script language=php> echo "foo" %>
 
guys
 
1:06 PM
It's short tags that are the real problem, IMO
 
how can i execute jquery on an element that will be loaded (after page load )
 
@Bassem how is this related to php? and did you even try to google it?
 
can event delegation helps me on that ?
 
@patrick
what is chat room for ?
 
1:08 PM
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<blah>
<?php foreach ($blah as $whatevs) { ?>
    <whatevs><?php echo $whatevs ?></whatevs>
<?php } ?>
</blah>
^ yay code that randomly doesn't work in some places
 
@Bassem yep, delegate is the way, but you should really ask in a jquery related room
 
@Bassem avoiding work
 
who put this in there...? room-11.github.io/#dont_10
 
ok , thanks @stefanotorresi for ur professional way of answer
 
1:09 PM
Hey guys.
 
@DaveRandom Did you get our pizza?
 
Afternoon all
 
Whats up with this PHP7
 
@Fabor I got my pizza, you didn't get any though :-P
 
What does php7 'vagrant' mean?
 
1:10 PM
It means that PHP 7 is currently living on the streets
2
 
@DaveRandom heh, true :(. I got protein powder though.
 
vagrant is a virtual machine running on your server so that development environments may stay consistant
 
/me goes to get lunch before I piss people off
 
Oh okay.
 
1:11 PM
@DaveRandom vagrant or vagabond ....
 
thanks @patrick
 
By the way, does anyone have a link for the planned features of PHP7?
I'm excited for its release.
 
Thanks, was too lazy to open a new tab and type it in.
 
hahaha
 
1:12 PM
I hope you sensed the irony in my statement.
 
@HassanAlthaf key shortcuts are your friend
I think there is some stuff on the php.net site - but don't quote me on it. I know it is under heavy development - just no idea what they are doing!!
 
@HassanAlthaf see this infographic that doesn't really aggregates a lot information pages.zend.com/TY-Infographic.html
 
@HassanAlthaf did you ever get a grade for your project?
 
@Patrick I didn't win any award.
Got a participation certificate.
Not even a single judge came to assess my project. :/
Not participating ever again
 
Wow that is like an acedemic slap in the face ...
 
1:15 PM
I know.
 
Sorry not trophy for you - here is a piece of paper for taking part ...
Could I ask what it was for?
 
Imagine a whiteboard cleaner getting the 3rd prize which doesn't take even a minute to make and already exists.
 
still wondering how come "It’s going to have Space Ships" made number #2
 
It was for Science and Technology Fair
 
What came first??
 
1:16 PM
@HassanAlthaf sucks... well at least you got something decent on github. That's definitely worth more than an award once you start looking for a job.
 
The thing that came first deserved it.
Automated T-Shirt folder
 
What was the competition for?
Thats kind of cool! I have one of those but she likes to be called "girlfriend"
 
Science and Technology Fair, the best innovative groups/individuals get to participate in the national science fair.
 
hello , any way to create a temporary file on a button click download it and then remove it ?
 
@HassanAlthaf that sounds pretty cool tbh!
@Joseph yes
 
1:18 PM
@Joseph why do you want to create a file if you are going to remove it?
 
There are multiple ways to do this, but you need to give us context not just a random question you could google in seconds
 
Yeah @Patrick I can proudly say I built it when I was 14.
 
If the file contains stuff you want to inject the approach would be different
 
@JustSteveKing @Patrick on a button click i want to zip some files download them , then remove the zip after download is complete
 
@HassanAlthaf quite impressive
 
1:19 PM
What is impressive man?
It was an Accounting System
Wasn't that hard lmao
But it sure did attract too many people.
 
@HassanAlthaf building something like that and doing well at 14
 
I will fix the FrontController pattern in that thing later which I misunderstood
Made it viewing @Patrick 's amazing tutorial here: github.com/PatrickLouys/no-framework-tutorial
I am waiting for more stuff on it, it's really useful. Haha.
 
@HassanAlthaf stop mixing tabs and spaces in your project
 
@Fabor Sure, that "protein powder" that you inject into your groin :-P
 
@HassanAlthaf don't get too excited, it's hard to find time for it :(
 
1:22 PM
@DaveRandom lol. I dunno which protein powder you've been looking at -_-
 
@HassanAlthaf I like it! the next step for me would be to wrap it all in that pretty pretty MVC hahaha
 
Also "Your password cannot be more than 255 characters long." doesn't make much sense @HassanAlthaf
 
@JustSteveKing no you shouldn't
 
Ahh it was @Patrick who wrote that! I have read that a few times :)
 
@JustSteveKing MVC ain't that fun bruh.
 
user895378
1:23 PM
morning
 
Yo rdawg
 
user895378
@DaveRandom I was specifically hoping for a maximally performant way to do this ;)
 
user895378
like ... one that wasn't OO
 
No it should only be used when makes sense - it just tends to be a habit to wrap it all up
 
@PeeHaa It does. It means that your password cannot contain more than 255 characters to avoid stupid people who like to lag the system by throwing in some 5000 odd characters.
@Patrick Don't worry man, all good!
 
user895378
I might hack up your code into a single function so I can do it with only one fcall :)
 
@PeeHaa mind putting a pull request or something? I'll update it later cuz im too lazy right now to clone it and edit it.
 
@HassanAlthaf 72 characters is the max
 
user895378
@NikiC you may be interested in the reply. That situation is such a cluster ...
 
1:25 PM
@Patrick My program is a mess. Can you put a pull request there mate?
@PeeHaa you recommend 72 characters max?
 
@HassanAlthaf nope can't, I'm at work ;)
 
@HassanAlthaf It's a technical limit of the password api
 
@PeeHaa you can overcome that limit by prehashing
 
@PeeHaa so if there are more than 72 characters inserted in the password_* then it will reject?
 
@rdlowrey Well, there are a lot of optimisations that can be made, but it depends what you want it to support. If your ranges are always valid CIDR ranges then there's some funky bitwise shit you can do, but if you support arbitrary ranges then you can't - but tbh the big unavoidable perf hit will always be parsing the address string, because of the :: shorthand.
 
1:26 PM
@StefanoTorresi prehashing wat now??
@HassanAlthaf Nope it will truncate
@StefanoTorresi Don't do that
 
@PeeHaa what he says makes sense, you could md5 the raw string and then hash that md5 hashed string with password_hash
 
no
nope
hell no
 
@PeeHaa nothing wrong with it if done right
 
noooooooo
@StefanoTorresi How do you know you are doing it right?
 
user895378
@DaveRandom Can't you just push it through inet_pton() instead of parsing it yourself?
 
@StefanoTorresi Have you actually read it through the end? :P
 
absolutely
 
@rdlowrey dammit :-P
 
I didn't just now, but I am 99% sure @ircmaxell will say something like just don't (or something like that)
 
user895378
@DaveRandom clearly you forgot that php has a function for everything ... except if you're doing http stuff :)
 
1:30 PM
/me opens the link
> Is it possible to do so safely? Yes. Is it a good idea to do it? No
 
@PeeHaa i take that you havent read the whole article in 2 minutes instead
 
Not that far off
@StefanoTorresi I just linked the important bit
24 secs ago, by PeeHaa
> Is it possible to do so safely? Yes. Is it a good idea to do it? No
All I need to know
 
@PeeHaa well if you don't mind i've read the full article, i've discussed it with other people that i trust, so i trust my assessment more than yours, thanks
 
lol
ok
 
user895378
Input needed: Given the current list of ext/zlib functions should the following six new global functions planned for PHP7 have their names prefixed with zlib_...
 
user895378
1:32 PM
deflate_init()
deflate_add()
deflate_flush()
inflate_init()
inflate_add()
inflate_flush()
 
the point is the same i made earlier: there is nothing wrong with it, if done right
 
user895378
?
 
@StefanoTorresi I already said ok
But @HassanAlthaf. No don't do it
 
@PeeHaa I would never. ;P
I am too lazy to add md5() around the string and then do password_hash
lmao
 
@HassanAlthaf You should never do that
 
1:34 PM
yup
i will never
for 2 reasons
 
@HassanAlthaf that's the wrong way to do it, indeed
 
1. Cuz u said no. 2. I am too lazy
 
3) and more important because it is broken
 
yus sir
can you do stacks and stuff in Java or Pascal?
oh pascal. :/ I expected a better language for A/L.
Pascal is a piece of shit
 
@rdlowrey Can't you just put it all in a namespace? /me ducks for cover
 
1:38 PM
@marcio I voted no because... I didn't want to see them removed. :)
 
user895378
@PeeHaa No because it would massively break BC for all code using old ext/zlib functions.
 
user895378
And it would just be awkward to have some things in the extension namespaced and some not.
 
@rdlowrey Well you have to start somewhere :)
 
user895378
(though I agree namespacing all of them is the right choice)
 
You would have to tease people to start getting to all on namespaces by only releasing new stuff in namespaces ;)
 
user895378
1:40 PM
Well the alternative would be to duplicate all of the existing functions inside a namespace and deprecate the global ones.
 
user895378
But internals would moan about this ad nauseum.
 
Yeah I know :( Still it just has to happen at some point either way :|
 
user895378
I don't want to discuss that stupid bikeshed color. I just want to push this missing functionality into php7.
 
user895378
So assuming namespaces aren't an option what should be done with those functions?
 
@rdlowrey I think I would prefer without prefix based on nothing than "it looks nicer"
 
1:44 PM
imho zlib_ prefix would look like the next most sensible choice after namespacing
but it's still bikeshedding a bit heh
 
user895378
The problem is that there's no official PHP stance on how to do this.
 
programming visualized:
 
@rdlowrey You don't say :P
 
user895378
The powers that be need to decide if new extensions development should use namespaces once and for all.
 
user895378
Because otherwise the same question keeps being asked over and over.
 
user895378
1:45 PM
The lack of centralized leadership in PHP makes me crazy sometimes :)
 
user895378
We really need a BDFL for some things.
 
lets throw @ocramius into lava, make him become Darth Vader, and he will take over it.
fwiw i've got lava. i live near a vulcan.
 
wait, what?
 
Hey, I'm not coming to Africa.
:P
 
1:47 PM
i'll teach you scuba diving again, i promise.
 
In lava?
what is this? Quake III Arena?
 
2:00 PM
@rdlowrey You'd have to have an incredibly deep and wide hierarchy to get any observable improvement (except maybe at Facebook)
/cc @Worf
 
@rdlowrey well ... you guys will have to push for creation of some kind of "board of directors"
 
Room 11 shall take over!
 
user895378
I wouldn't mind voting for a three-person BDFL triumvirate for each year. Or maybe two years.
 
@Ocramius lol
 
@StefanoTorresi @Amelia As said, common sense and sanity is required. If you don't have them… well, yeah, you evidently need a coding standard.
 
2:03 PM
I vote for @NikiC to be that person
 
I distinctly remember learning the word "triumvirate" in year 7 history while plagiarizing from an encyclopedia. For the kids out there an encyclopedia was like wikipedia but on paper.
 
@rdlowrey Anthony, Nikita and Rasmus. That's enough.
 
Why Rasmus?
 
no need for (bi-)annual votes
 
user895378
Rasmus could be a lifetime member and you could vote for two people each cycle.
 
2:04 PM
@bwoebi You can't guarantee your contributors will share your same common sense :p
 
user895378
Spoiler Alert: common sense isn't always as common as we'd like to think :)
 
"common sense" and "share" don't work in the era of twitter and facebook.
 
and that's why we have coding standards.
:D
 
@lisachenko because he has a conservative view but is open for new features and … isn't stupid.
(and is creator)
 
posted on April 01, 2015 by kbironneau

/* by Frankie */

 
2:06 PM
I'm such a weak dictator. Here you guys are proposing a triumvirate with no fear of retribution.
 
Rasmus can have a veto right, but I'd like to see him as a moderator for features, but not as a dictator
 
user895378
That's why you have three people and not one.
 
Rasmus + 3 more?
 
So what do you want from me with regards to a PHP Internals conference? @ircmaxell @PhilSturgeon
 
user895378
No, you have to have an odd number to avoid deadlocks.
 
2:08 PM
Good point
 
@LeviMorrison A location, and an open bar.
 
@salathe Guess I can't host it at BYU :)
(I mean, I guess there is probably a bar somewhere in Provo but I don't know where it is)
 
I think veto rights and board of directors is an horrible idea, the RFC process is fine we just need less ambiguous rules.
 
No, voting is stupid democracy somewhen...
 
What do we want? more and more internal politics to dispute votes from one of the people from the "cabal"?
 
2:12 PM
@LeviMorrison i wonder what was the difference now :P do you still have the results?
 
2/3 rights for core feature - and we can expect almost no features, because of votes...
 
We should have a quorum for RFC votes, 50% of all eligible voters. :DD
 
i'm expecting it to be around 1%, probably less
 
@lisachenko you can also expect more unilateral poor quality decisions from a board of directors than from voting ;)
 
@salathe That would make for a very stable language :D
 
2:14 PM
Maybe made total 5 votes? 3 from core members, 1 aggregate vote from RFC voting and one more vote from PHP community
 
The swiss system works pretty well. Dumbed down, there is a "board of directors" of 7. If the people don't like something, they can get a set number of supporters (100k) to force a national wide vote on something.
Maybe something like that would work well
People with karma = the people
 
@Patrick PHP community to vote?
 
@NikiC Maybe stable isn't the right word, but yes, unchanging. :)
 
Most decisions get made by the board. If a lot of people disagree, they can override
 
@Patrick I'm afraid of who those 7 will be]
 
2:16 PM
@Patrick We don't nee d a cabal IMMO. But if we get it, I expect to have exactly the opposite situation. Most decisions taken by voters, and if the board doesn't like they can interfere.
And any interference should be very well justified.
 
@PeeHaa Stas, Zeev, Andi, Laruence, Dmitry, MWOP... (who else works for Zend?)
 
@PeeHaa just ask all PHP developers to vote for directors, like moderator votes of SO
 
@marcio I just looked at github.com/php/php-src/pull/1158 again. So in the end this ended up with the same problem as the original patch, but moving things into ext/tokenizer instead of zend_language_scanner
 
@lisachenko Yo dawg I geard you like votes so I set up a vote to see who can vote
:)
 
@PeeHaa sure!
 
2:19 PM
@lisachenko hehe, a PHP internals popularity contest! :)
 
Democracy and political programs, elections...
 
maybe we need some phparties ;)
 
@salathe why not? We can select our directors like in political games
House of PHP Lords )
 
@NikiC hi. Not really the same problem. When we did things during lexing there was no way to backtrack and lookaheads were fragile (because we lookaheaded on characters not on tokens). When we post process the ex/tokenizer we have the entire token stream and it's much safer to do anything.
 
it's strange enough that we vote at all ...
 
2:21 PM
@lisachenko Because I'd never be popular enough *cries a little*
 
Good morning
 
user895378
@ircmaxell morning
 
Seriously guys, do you really want to take all the decentrilezed power we have (so anyone can just come and contribute) and put most of the decision taking on the people that haven't been actively contributing with the "new" PHP?
 
@ircmaxell morning
 
@ircmaxell mogguh
 
2:23 PM
@marcio anyone can contribute, but this will lead to strange things without single vision and single concept
 
Two teams of biological researchers spend several months conducting research on the same subject, coming to different conclusions. Imagine if they conduct a vote among faculty members to decide whose research is correct ... voting on what is correct doesn't really make sense.
moin @ircmaxell
 
@JoeWatkins hmm who used the word "correct"?
 
well there is correct implementation, but nobody listens to reason when an rfc is in full swing ...
 
@JoeWatkins but you are assuming that the "cabal" will have the same scientific commitment towards the language design process, and that's unlikely.
 
you get people saying things like "we believe that ______", you can't really argue with someones beliefs, even if those beliefs are contrary to what is known ...
 
2:27 PM
@salathe do we remove the php4 stuff?? bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=69342
 
Highly FUD speculative argument ahead >>>>> I believe that if we had a cabal we would be merging coercive scalar type hints on master now :P
 
@JoeWatkins that's because for many things there is not one correct way, there are many approaches with different tradeoffs
the more people are involved, the more variety there is, the less efficient the voting system will be. some people like it, some don't... and there is no easy way out, because consensus has to be reached anyway, and it's an inherently difficult thing, everyone has its own biases.
all hail a BDFL, if he shares your own biases
 
@rdlowrey pastebin.com/NnVTHAQC <-- hopefully a better jumping off point for you, if you're not bothered about supporting arbitrary ranges (valid subnets only)
 
user895378
@DaveRandom thanks! I love Dallas!
 
Ok ... so I would recommend the governing body of PHP to be called: Pack of Lords
 
2:31 PM
    $maskBin = pack(
        'n*',
        ...array_fill(0, $blocks, 0xffff),
        ...array_pad([((2 ** (16 - ($cidr % 16))) - 1) ^ 0xffff], 8 - $blocks, 0)
    );
^ I like this
 
and I would agree with ircmaxell's idea that the number of people should be 6
requiring 2/3 to approve shit
 
@StefanoTorresi but there are multiple incorrect ways, we can say something is wrong much easier than we can say something is right. If an RFC includes assertions in it's rationale that do not fit reality, and this happens, then we should be able to stop that RFC getting to a vote, on the basis that it's rationale is actually incorrect.
I don't think a bdfl is the answer ...
I don't know what the answer is ...
 
bdsm?
 
@JoeWatkins can't we do it already during discussion phase?
 
@marcio most valuable discussions don't take place before voting, don't know why and by then you are married to your idea and don't accept criticism of it
 
2:40 PM
Question: I have an application that has hardcoded / as directory separator everywhere
Works fine on linux and windows except for cli on windows
IS there a way to fix it without changing all the code?
I tried:
if(php_sapi_name() === 'cli') {
set_include_path(str_replace('\\','/',__DIR__)."/");
chdir(str_replace('\\','/',__DIR__)."/");
}

but it doesn't work (the requires in included scripts don't work because the include path is updated "improperly")
 
@JoeWatkins that's a problem with the RFC process itself IMMO, people tend to ignore the RFCs they don't like instead of going against the RFCs during discussion, mostly for political reasons. And only when they see the imminence of a voting they decide to post the negative comments to bleed the RFC. I think this can be fixed without a board of directors.
 
@JoeWatkins yea, i agree with that, i wasn't suggesting that a bdfl is the solution, because it would only works for those who share his biases. it's just another way of doing things, and like technical matters, there are multiple valid ways each with its own tradeoffs. besides, it will never happen, so it's just chat ;)
 
@PeeHaa yep
 
@salathe kthxbye
 
@marcio I think that is largely due to the nature of discussions on internals (people don't want to participate)
 
2:43 PM
I also want to include a vote from PHP developers without PHP karma ) With some weight...
100k developer votes == 10 voting points in RFC
 
@nikita2206 yolophp used to use <script language=php>, but that was before it became the world's first and only PHP 7-exclusive framework
 
@ircmaxell 100% agree with you :) if we had more healthy discussions and conducts these issues would be rare.
 
yolophp is usually ahead of the curve
Laravel is for artisans, yolophp is for hipsters
 
@marcio you won't have that for anything that's not a closed circle
 
any sql guru's? I cant figure our how to do sql CASE.. it says incorrect syntax near case:
@StartDate datetime = null
,@EndDate datetime = null
)
AS
BEGIN

CASE
WHEN @StartDate IS NULL

THEN
SELECT * FROM ContentA
ELSE
SELECT * FROM ContentB
END
 
2:48 PM
ok so I narrowed down my issue
 
@JoJo what are you trying to do?
 
chdir("C:/test/test");
getcwd();// C:\test\test
how to change that?
 
pass a date param as an option, so I allow datetime to be null, if @startdate is null run one query otherwise the other query
I just have dummy select statements in the example
 
@JoJo It can be better to have this logic in PHP side, not in SQL query
 
I just suck at CASE statements ugh lol
 
2:50 PM
@StefanoTorresi take the Scalar Type Hints war (battle II) as an example. The FUD and worst parts of discussion were caused by the people that should have respected the processes more than anyone else. That's what takes the credibility away. Not the amount of people involved.
 
you can try with COALESCE operator
 
@JoJo you won't need them in 99.9% of cases
 
wow, I never knew that @Patrick
hmm maybe i will rethink...
 
lol I just fixed it @salathe. Git out of my ticket!1111 :P
Well feel free to close it now that it is assigned to you :)
 
so uh
this is mostly of interest to the JS room but
I remade Crockford Facts
 
2:55 PM
@salathe oh really, I would never guess that :P. Anyway, glad it was removed
 
@marcio I personally think that what you're referring to involved more people than you would imagine, because... politics.
in politics, you don't commit to anything if you don't have people who stand by you
so ultimately, the numbers do matter
 
@StefanoTorresi the bottom line for me is that I still prefer to have an apparently chaotic democracy that has been moving PHP forward than switching to a cabal or board of directors that will probably be much more unbalanced than the current voting process.
 
@marcio totally legitimate thought, I'll personally delay my own judgement untill I'll have results to compare
but I like changes, that I can say for sure
 
Using the word politics is not...useful. Politics is organised around parties, and people agreeing to a common set of ideas to get elected. The PHP RFC process doesn't have politics, it has sociological 'stuff', for each separate RFC.
 
Ahoy hoy
 
3:03 PM
@Danack it's similar... you have people agreeing to a common set of ideas and voting about it.
 
@DanLugg ohai
 
While it's easy enough to say "all the things" can this room shout out some specific reasons (specific bugs, features, etc.) to switch from 5.2.13?
So far, all I can come up with is "all the things", but that doesn't seem specific or objective enough
 
@DanLugg namespaces. sane typing. loads of vulnerabilities. fucking sanity
 
Security patches.
 
@StefanoTorresi a concession on my part: I think a board with veto power (prior to voting) could be ok as long as the interventions get really well justified. But moving the entire decision taking to a cabal sounds like a big regression to me.
 
3:06 PM
Dan Lugg: Have you gone through the migration guides at the end of the manual? They point out key features, BC breaks, etc
 
@Danack I know there're tons, but any specific ones? What about the post hash-bucket DDOS, did that get patched back to 5.2.*?
 
I don't know, sorry.
 
@AllenJB Funny, I've seldom gone through those guides; perfect though, thanks
 
@DanLugg Not from PHPs side. But distro may have backported
 
Hmm, okay. Not sure how this install was setup
Thanks though, gonna hafta dig
 
3:10 PM
@PeeHee, I assigned it to you to finish cleaning up the other functions :)
 
@DanLugg Do you use fileinfo anywhere?
 
@salathe heheheh tnx :P
 
There have been like 50 libmagic vulnerabilities fixed since 5.2
 
Not sure, gigantic codebase, just perusing it now
 
Or using unserialize on not fully trusted data? Probably also 10 vulnerabilities fixed there
 
3:11 PM
Legacy FTW! Can I buy a gun?
 
@DanLugg That depends. Where do you live?
 
user1804599
Hello, world!
 
@райтфолд hello impossible to ping user
2
 
@PeeHaa Actually, his name should show up if you type just @
 
WTF insert magic meme
Does it do that for all non standard characters or something?
 
3:14 PM
Presumably
 
TIL tnx
 
user1804599
Anonymous classes are good.
 
@райтфолд How's your ocaml?
 
user1804599
I have never used OCaml, but I have used F#!
 
3:19 PM
I don't recall April fools being this popular over a decade ago. Last few years seems people make a thing of it
I wonder how many divorce papers are served on April 1st
 
3:32 PM
@CarrieKendall that's surprisingly readable
 
@CarrieKendall I prefer com.google
 
yup :-)
 
Anonymous
TIL; .google is a tld
 
ROooAWR =] its easter .. yaaay mini vacation
 
A story of "Be Careful What You Wish For"

Dan: *rubs lamp* Hi Mr. Genie! I don't like .NET anymore, I want a 9-to-5 PHP job!
Genie: *chuckles* No problem...
Dan: Wait! I didn't specify version requirements!
Genie: *does his magic* Here's your new job! Have fun with 5.2!
Dan: NoOooOoOOoOooOoOoOoooOOoooo
2
 
3:44 PM
=]
 
Though, even after 2 days I've already got people on the upgrade bandwagon
 
But will it require years of refactoring before the upgrades can happen?
 
I'm calling rewrite on this one, tbh
 
great job.. improving the lifes of everybody involved
 
I can't wait for generics.... github.com/Rican7/incoming/blob/…
 
3:55 PM
 
user895378
/me doesn't trust any links today
 
(yes, I am coming back to PHP, see link)
@rdlowrey come on, people make plenty of serious announcements on April Fool's Day
Like Gmail.
 
user895378
Totally.
 
3:58 PM
/ignores dockblocks xD
 
:P
 

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