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11:00 PM
why is it a failing?
 
It's not good at creating compromises
Things are often a bit all-or-nothing
 
@AndreaFaulds don't get me wrong... I instantly like any RFC trying to add scalar type hints (specially if strict), I just criticize your RFC a lot because I don't think it has a chance to pass :)
 
@AndreaFaulds That may or may not be good.
You know how compromises are commonly just a solution that everyone hates equally much and satisfies nobody.
 
Look at how a bill goes through the European Parliament and Council of the European Union
vs. how an RFC passes in internals
 
compromise can lead to the best solution (at least most workable) or it can lead to design-by-committee
 
11:01 PM
with the EP and CoEU, a bill goes through one, is amended, goes through the other, goes back and so on and so forth until a compromise is reached
 
@AndreaFaulds One critical difference it that we never meet physically (or something similar like video chat) as a group.
 
What we have is all-or-nothing
 
@AndreaFaulds what they have is nothing-or-nothing
 
@LeviMorrison Sure
 
so at least we have something
 
11:03 PM
@ircmaxell I wouldn't say so
 
@LeviMorrison there were a few get-togethers in the early 2000's
 
Things get watered down, but they usually get passed
 
An earmark is a legislative money (especially congressional) provision that directs approved funds to be spent on specific projects, or that directs specific exemptions from taxes or mandated fees. The term "earmark" is used in this sense in several countries, such as the United States and South Africa. Earmarks come in two varieties: Hard earmarks, or "hardmarks", found in legislation, and soft earmarks, or "softmarks", found in the text of congressional committee reports. Hard earmarks are legally binding, whereas soft earmarks are not but are customarily acted upon as if they were. Typically...
 
@AndreaFaulds this is very unlikely for scalar type hints because "50 shades of strictness" people have on their minds xD
 
It's no coincidence that this chatroom is more successful at white-boarding ideas in than internals.
2
 
11:03 PM
@AndreaFaulds We don't need compromises. We need things which everybody is really happy with.
 
@bwoebi well, at least enough people are really happy with
 
@bwoebi Impossible for this specific issue
 
@AndreaFaulds then perhaps that tells you everything you need to know
 
As I've said before, the problem is people want to force a model upon others
 
@AndreaFaulds that's precisely what an implementation does
 
11:04 PM
@ircmaxell Oh sure, but in this specific case it's a problem because it's not a widely-agreed upon model
and there are multiple models
 
yes there are multiple models
 
we need a carefully crafted evil RFC that passes by one vote diff :)
 
@ircmaxell well, you nearly never will match everybody… but IMO at least 75% should be happy enough with it.
 
@bwoebi or 2/3 :D
 
especially with things you'll hardly be able to change later…
 
11:06 PM
I was thinking about PHP 8 or 9 or 10 and what I'd like to see in them. I'd love all varargs stuff to be required to use ... and more unification of internal and user-land function calls.
 
@NikiC well, in 95% of cases, where you reach 2/3, you reach 75% too.
 
(one vote diff up the 2/3 margin, of course)
 
For instance, right now if you don't provide enough parameters to a function the behavior is different for internal functions and user-land.
 
@LeviMorrison yes, should I be taking the time to refactor it and all?
 
@LeviMorrison that IMO doesn't need a major to be fixed.
 
11:09 PM
This is my new plan for the $this from incompat ctx removal: github.com/php/php-src/pull/1026
 
function foo(int $bar, int? $baz, int! $quux), all cause casting, no suffix raises a warning on data loss, question suffix raises a notice or strict on data loss and sets to null, bang suffix causes a fatal on data loss. There, everyone gets what they want, except people who hate punctuation. Maybe add a "number" type so people that get angsty about floats/ints/bignumbs will shut up.
 
@crypticツ Eh, don't worry too much. If you see major duplication I'd be worried, or if the tests are really complex maybe refactor a little bit.
 
@NikiC so, you want to encourage things like $that = "this"; $$that->method(); ?
 
@bwoebi I think it does because I don't like what either type of function does.
 
@bwoebi Please, there are children watching.
 
11:10 PM
@bwoebi no...?
It wouldn't work anyway
 
@NikiC stop
 
… okay, didn't read all the four points yet
 
this is a bad plan
you will fail
 
Why?
It's a lot more sensible than just always fataling
and it's symmetric for usage from class/non-class scope
 
Removing calls from incompatible context will break things no matter how you go about it
Your current suggestion doesn't account for pseudo-static methods calling pseudo-static methods, right?
 
11:14 PM
what?
 
pseudo-static methods?
 
Yes, of course it will break things, that's the point
 
@marcio PHP 4 didn't have static methods
@NikiC Don't Be Evil
(oh god i'm becoming Derick help)
 
The difference is that this will only break usages that actually rely on assuming a stupid $this value
while not breaking on cases where methods just weren't annotated as static but really are
 
@AndreaFaulds thank god I never used PHP4 or <
 
11:16 PM
@NikiC looked again, looks sane. Then we can properly make it fatal in PHP 8.
 
@Andrea I would recommend you to reread the PR description, I'm relatively sure that you did not understand it.
 
@NikiC yeah, I needed to read it twice too. Maybe add some examples?
 
@bwoebi I'll write a mail to internals tomorrow if time allows
 
It's good to have things first deprecated for a few years (which theoretically should be enough time for all legacy apps to get an update…) before removing them.
 
11:20 PM
@bwoebi it's not really everyone you need to match. If you had to get Derick, You, Andrea and Lester to agree, I'd feel sorry for you
 
@ircmaxell lol
We'd end up implementing strict typehints and throwing a "Warning: You are using strict typehints. Are you sure?" that's impossible to disable :P
 
btw
 
To accommodate Derick that is
 
hahahaha
 
Derick is to be referred to as Sheldon Cooper from now on. As subtly as possible
Don't forget to set date.timezone! #phpbnl15 http://t.co/cS6M0MjAlJ
check out that picture ^^
 
11:22 PM
Wow.
 
@ircmaxell It already was said in here… but well… I have no idea who Sheldon Cooper really is… A quick search didn't give me too much information about his characteristics…
 
if you've ever met him IRL, you'd know how much that fits
@bwoebi The Big Bang Theory lead character
 
@bwoebi give a few years and mostly will only tweak error_reporting to ignore deprecateds :)
 
@ircmaxell yeah, that's what I found out too… but who is that… which characteristics match between Derick and him?
 
And if you haven't seen BBT, imagine stereotypical ubergeek sperglords as written by somewhat smart people but for a mainstream US audience. It's horrifying.
 
11:25 PM
@bwoebi all I can say is you have to watch the show. Nobody can tell you who Sheldon is. You can only find out for yourself. Over 8 23-episode seasons of character development.
 
@Charles Ah, this was what I wanted to know… makes sense now.
 
ok, someone merge this patch, PLEASE: gist.github.com/beberlei/f98718ba51dd837e9304
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
:-P
 
@ircmaxell you have push karma.
 
@bwoebi yes, but I also have enough sense to not lose them :-P
 
damn :-P
 
11:27 PM
Why does it even do that instead of default to GMT or pull it from the system settings?
I never understood that.
 
then again, if they weren't lost when I "quit", I dunno
 
You'll get right-enough behavior doing the latter...
 
@Charles can't reliably pull from system settings
 
We should make a RFC for PHP 7 to get rid of this date.timezone warning. Authored by all room 11 regulars.
 
yes
we talked about that the other day
get rid of the warning and just assume GMT
 
11:29 PM
I know. But we also should do it now.
 
go for it. it's a few line patch, nothing significant
even the RFC can be as simple as "We shouldn't be trolls"
and we can rename the T_PAIDONTKNOW_NEKHOWTOSPELLIT to something sane with the same RFC
 
@ircmaxell well, this at least is a bit funny...
 
:-P
 
Huh, somehow I thought timezone sniffing was part of POSIX. That's stupid.
Aahaha every linux distro does it differently on top of it all
Goddamnit, computers, why are you so horrible?
 
because of us
computers are smart. RFC authors are the... "odd" ones
 
11:34 PM
"Odd" is a very safe word given the people being described.
 
GMT vs UTC
 
You have to have a special level of insanity.
 
@Charles some of them were very smart
HTTP/1.1, given a few oddities is overall quite excellent at its job
 
Smart doesn't exclude insane. Sometimes the insanity manifests itself as being willing to deal with a real standards committee.
 
guy wantz var_dump on Go github.com/davecgh/go-spew, not that anyone cares #envy-php
 
11:43 PM
@Charles that's a very true realization
 
I read the following warning in bindec's documentation:
> The parameter must be a string. Using other data types will produce unexpected results.
So I got curious.
 
oh no
 
php > var_dump(bindec(10));
int(2)
^ Okay, that's reasonable if not magical, I thought.
php > var_dump(bindec(16));
int(1)
 
ummm
 
I am fairly certain how it works.
It converts to a string and then stops conversion at the first non-zero, non-one character *
 
11:48 PM
oh, that's not crazy
 
* except that's not how it works.
 
it actually fi...
uhhh
 
It actually converts to string, strips all non-zero, none-one characters, and then does the bindec conversion.
php > var_dump(bindec(1021));
int(5)
It's clearly documented as being "unexpected". I'm not sure why you wouldn't just error lol
 
because zpp.
 
@LeviMorrison ffs php
 
11:51 PM
don't get me started on those
dexhex/oct/bin converts negative numbers to two's complement
so -1 is ffffffffffffffff
 
@LeviMorrison no it doesnt... actually, yes it does
 
trigger_error("Wha'chu smokin, Willis?", E_WTF);
 
@ircmaxell Well, maybe not strip them but ignores them.
 
@bwoebi it's not ZPP
it's doing it manually with convert_to_string_ex
 
11:52 PM
It logically strips them. As you linked it just skips when it doesn't match.
 
@ircmaxell wtf...
 
\o/ I love PHP!
 
@bwoebi so it never errors
because errors are evil
 
github.com/bwoebi/php-src/compare/date.timezone_warning_removal … and now the RFC… errr… does it even need a RFC? :-)
 
@bwoebi yeah, play nice
 
11:56 PM
@ircmaxell nah, I just wanted to PR this and let Derick merge it. … nah just joking, of course I'll RFC it…
 
you know he'll ignore it :-D
 
@LeviMorrison if it errors it should error on any string containing invalid digits. not because a number was passed
 
@NikiC Sure. But mainly it is just fubar currently imo
 

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