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6:02 PM
o___O
 
Defining method signatures with quantifiers; super-dee-duper ;-)
 
phpstorm gave up on phpdbg it seems ... youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/WI-21414#comment=27-767292
 
well ... fuck 'em
 
really?
 
really :(
 
6:10 PM
I want to reply to and do not want to put any effort to make the tool "embeddable" as a visual debugger backend and say "it's open source. If it's valuable to you for it to be embeddable, work with them to get it done. Don't just expect someone to do work that doesn't directly benefit them because it will benefit you"
 
I don't have time to fix it ... it could be fixed ... but they have a shitty attitude, there are plenty of people waiting to work me that do not have a shitty attitude, so as you eloquently put t @tereško, fuck 'em ...
it wouldn't be any effort, few days work ... there would have been no point in spending that time on writing that stuff before anybody wanted to embed it ...
the list of things I have to do when I have space to think is large, this has to goto the bottom, if they or @bwoebi wants to pick it up they can ... but don't think I'll be interacting with those guys directly ...
 
:-(
 
what they are asking of you is for you to provide free labor to improve a commercial tool
 
@tereško Free for OSS teams
I think that is nice
 
and how do I become an "OSS team" ?
 
6:19 PM
this is also true ... additionally, if they were my kind of programmer, none of this would be an issue, it is embeddable, if you really know what you are doing, you can build phpdbg as a shared library and access all of it via jni ... which is what I would be doing ... not trying to parse output in the way they are ... but whatever ... they are wanting me to do their job or them ... I don't object to providing what they need, but bottom of list ...
 
@tereško By sending them a mail, showing some oss project and asking for license basically
 
@AlmaDo you arrived yet?
 
@shortCircuit to where?
 
I think I have to tell them their attitude sucks ...
would I be wrong to get involved in the conversation now, just to tell them they suck and explain their options for moving forward, either diy or improve attitude and wait ?
 
> Most important, it does not have any proper protocol suitable for reliable integration with any IDE.
so add a protocol. if that's their main problem, just add one.
 
6:30 PM
well sure, but I have a list of things I have committed to write and spend time on ... all of those people I look forward to working with ... these guys are dicks ...
they never asked me to do anything ...
 
i accepted it but it wont let me upvote because my rep is too low :( thx again though! i love u (no homo) haha — lean13 Jan 3 '12 at 14:00
@JoeWatkins Are you going to add the features they need?
You should tell them that their communication is lacking, and that if they were missing a feature from phpdbg's end, all they had to do is write an email, and you would have worked something out
 
at the risk of sounding childish, why should I ?
> Its not up to PhpStorm, its up to the authors of the phpdbg
 
@JoeWatkins So... return types?
Josh Watzman from Hack/HHVM asked me about it today
 
@LeviMorrison it's going to be a week or two probably, everything is rather hectic, I did try to sit down with it at weekend but get nowhere ...
 
Yeah, understandable
Find a new flat yet?
 
6:39 PM
we have a shortlist we want to view
they are in devon ...
 
Nice.
 
then there's the one on IoW and one in Kent, but we're not too hopeful we'll actually get those, both have lots of downsides and are a bit expensive/dreamy ...
I think we're goin to drive there tomorrow/next day ... not sure yet ...
sorry about the hold up on everything ... it is everything ...
 
@JoeWatkins And then you tell them "Well, if I needed to do something, why didn't you ask?"
 
I don't want this to be true, it should not be true ... firstly because all of the things their very successful commercial product relies on are open source, their primary option should be to contribute, secondly because I shouldn't be expected to read the minds of teams I haven't interacted with in any significant way, nobody has ever mentioned it would even be an ideal ... I was given no hints ...
 
I don't get the fuzz here
They are asked to integrate with phpdbg, they look into it and find that it does not support integration (at least currently), so they don't integrate
Sounds very logical to me
 
6:46 PM
so they report to voters that we are unwilling to do things they have never asked any one of us to do because of something I said in a podcast ...
 
@NikiC it does, but how they phrased the "and do not want to put any effort to make the tool "embeddable" as a visual debugger backend" is the problem
 
@NikiC It's not OK to bash out against phpdbg's authors like that.
 
if they said "it doesn't support it, so we can't", fine. But to say "they don't want to put any effort in" without actually trying to have the discussion...
 
I feel like you're reading too much into that
I mean, I also had the impression that phpdbg is supposed to be a CLI tool. So I can understand that they figured the same ^^
 
huge difference between saying "it's not designed to work with us" and "they don't want to make it work with us". One is a fact about current status. The other is opinion about future status
 
6:51 PM
okay, I can see that
 
I agree, saying we are unwilling to do things that were never requested of us seems like an outright lie to me ...
 
@JoeWatkins it's a punt, getting the responsibility for the lack of the feature from them to someone else...
 
@AmlaDo , ah my internet is bad . I was hoping you could tell me about the issue @DacveRandom was saying, in terms of implementing in simpler terms
 
super annoying, it's not like they mentioned it and I said I wasn't keen even, it was never requested of us, at all ... I'll spend time on almost anything, you only have to ask ... I'm sure bob and felipe would too ...
 
I can pastebin what I have done .. But its actually nothing useful
 
6:55 PM
@JoeWatkins worth replying to the thread saying that?
 
@ircmaxell I think it does. One of the things I dislike to see is how easily someone cancels all work and efforts done by someone else.
It's disrespectful and unprofessional, especially from a company that seemingly loves OS so much.
 
user895378
Hey @JoeWatkins is it too late for me to do that phpdbg socket stuff we had talked about in time for 5.6? Like, if I do it this week?
 
@rdlowrey I think is okay .. you are better to coordinate with bob and felipe, they are on irc ... or bob is here ....
 
user895378
I don't give a rodent's behind about PhpStorm and its weird camel casing of the PHP recursive acronym.
 
At the very least, it is up to you to communicate your needs to us.

You have asserted here that we are unwilling to spend time on stuff that was never requested of us.

All you have to do is ask, and do so with the kind of attitude that invites us to work with you.
@ircmaxell @SecondRikudo @Gordon @rdlowrey @bwoebi @NikiC ?
(I'm not even sorry)
 
7:08 PM
lgtm
 
hurrah for fronting. lets all be enemies \o/
 
Maybe s/on stuff/on work/
 
@JoeWatkins I wouldn't go that far...
 
@Gordon don't want to be enemies, not going to apologize for not doing things that were never requested of us ... it's either "sorry, we should have read your mind" or "we can't read minds"
 
@SecondRikudo that is funny. lets also have a meta for meta. and then a meta for that meta. oh, inception!!!
 
7:09 PM
You have asserted here that we are unwilling to spend time on stuff that was never requested of us. The truth is that we'd be happy to work together towards a common goal, in a constructive fashion.
 
better ^
 
Where u go? @AlmaDo
 
@Gordon Actually, that's solved by asking question about meta, on meta.
 
@ircmaxell okay, thnx
 
user895378
@JoeWatkins I like @ircmaxell's version better :)
 
7:11 PM
@ircmaxell Again, s/spend time on stuff/spend time on work/
 
@SecondRikudo needs more meta
 
@Gordon MOAR
 
yeh maybe "on features that were never requested"
 
user895378
But seriously, if you could do something very basic to make parsing the output easier I could do the websocket interface in a snap.
 
@JoeWatkins keeps it constructive while getting the point across. Be the bigger person on this one, since it's users that would benefit the most
 
user895378
7:12 PM
It could even be faux-xml ... something like <output>blah blah</output><prompt/>
 
@rdlowrey debugging over websocket?
 
or did I come into a separate conversation?
 
user895378
@ircmaxell Yeah I did a basic PoC using a websocket front-end to phpdbg a couple months back so you could just fire up a browser tab running phpdbg.
 
@ircmaxell daniel is working on a web interface for remote debugging ...
 
user895378
7:12 PM
Pretty sweet.
 
@rdlowrey dude, that's awesome-sauce
 
user895378
I got side-tracked and never finished it, but it's not that difficult for me to finish up. I just need to do a PR to make interfacing with phpdbg over tcp a bit simpler.
 
user895378
I'll do that for sure this week, Joe.
 
@rdlowrey do all the pr's, bob is watching he will sort it ... if he doesn't (he might be busy, haven't seen him today), I'll do it ...
 
user895378
@JoeWatkins Well, Bob bombards me with impatience on the regular.
 
user895378
7:15 PM
I'm happy to send a PR and bug the crap out of him ;)
 
@ircmaxell yeah I want to be ... but feel a bit attacked ...
@rdlowrey bug the crap out of him, or pop into #phpdbg on IRC and ask felipe ...
 
user895378
K, I'll get it sorted this week.
 
@JoeWatkins it's cool. People will realize what happened. And it will make you look all the better if you don't get vindictive over it
I'm not saying jump on it 100%, definitely not
 
I'm around if you get no answer, I'll look at it @rdlowrey ... I'm sure it will be fine ... got a windows vm ?
 
user895378
@JoeWatkins I do my dev in windows and all my nix work in a terminal so that's not an issue.
 
7:18 PM
you can phpdbg in windows ?
 
user895378
I haven't ever tried to run phpdbg in windows, actually.
 
work in a branch @rdlowrey, it will be noticed and you won't have to bug anyone ... if you can get a build going in windows and are happy with it, I'm happy with it ...
 
user895378
lol, push access, eh? Joe must like living dangerously.
 
user895378
But yeah, I'll quarantine anything I do in its own branch.
 
@ircmaxell yeah, I know you're right ...
 
7:22 PM
@ircmaxell is always right.
 
no, it's just a perspective
 
yeah but the right one usually :D
I did try to be constructive ... but from my perspective they cannot get it to work, don't have a satisfactory understanding of their own environment and so decided to trash us ... that pisses me off ...
 
I definitely agree
 
You may want to fix that XSS issue on your site ;-) — PeeHaa 7 mins ago
:-D
Explanation by demo :P
 
I have no reason whatsoever to make phpdbg build as a shared library, no reason to export symbols, no reason to write the headers the way they are ... we did put effort in to making it properly embedable but because there's no magic console option, and they don't understand what they are looking at, we can't be bothered to do stuff ... I expect way better from a successful team relying on free stuff ... I expect better from anyone human actually ...
 
7:28 PM
I thought there was some link somewhere to invite somebody to chat
 
turns out the effort we did put in was wasted, since they don't even understand it is there they probably couldn't use it if I pointed it out ...
 
ow wait. 1 rep
 
@PeeHaa Dat OP name
 
@rdlowrey Meh, I think that typehints are a defining feature of PHP.
It's one of the few things that makes use better than Python ^^
 
@NikiC agree. Well, more precisely, I believe that it's that it supports mixed-mode usage, where you can hint where you want, and not where you don't that are the defining feature :-)
 
7:31 PM
I'm not sure if she's actually called "Gaza", or if that's her nickname to show support for Gaza... :|
 
I support Gaza, but that's just to piss you off ;-)
 
@ircmaxell anyway, if I didn't want to hear reason I wouldn't have asked for reason ;) rant over ...
 
@JoeWatkins :-)
 
@PeeHaa Well then, how about a nice hot cup of go f*** yourself? :)
 
:D
 
user895378
7:33 PM
@NikiC Hmm ... interesting. I'm not sure I agree unless saying that the current type hint paradigm (without scalars) is a defining feature.
 
user895378
Maybe a better way to express my opinion is ...
 
user895378
The dual support for loose types alongside strict typing is the defining feature.
 
user895378
Not typehinting itself.
 
user895378
Oh, that's basically what @ircmaxell just said ;)
 
I dislike the term typehinting
Who are we hinting to?
 
7:35 PM
types :P
 
We're giving instructions to the compiler, so that's not hinting
 
user895378
Hinting to IDEs :)
 
Other people.
 
@rdlowrey Those are done by annotations.
 
@rdlowrey Great minds think alike. And fools rarely differ...
 
user895378
7:36 PM
Or maybe I just spent too much of my formative coding years on @ircmaxell's blog so I've inherited his biases.
 
@cowburn a little part of php would die ... so I'd be sad ... like you might be if you had a wart removed ...
 
user895378
I'd say PHP4 is more tumor than wart.
 
It's a wart with a zipcode.
 
user895378
gross. lol, but gross.
 
@JoeWatkins I see what you did there :-P
 
7:37 PM
Or at least it's own PO box.
 
hehe
 
OMFG you found my linkedin profile @DaveRandom! STALKER!
 
quick, what is it!
 
@ircmaxell I bet it's called Lusitanian's Mother or something similar.
 
Staph searching for it. I want to burry it in the search engine results!11 :P
@SecondRikudo At the time I didn't know his mom yet. That thing must be 10 years old and has been abandoned for 10 years :P
 
7:44 PM
@JoeWatkins I think you are a bit too quick to jump here. bunch of people upvoted the thread mentioning how xdebug sucks and that this should be the official replacement. then when they look into they figure out that the isn't any api per see and that it isn't a drop-in xdebug replacement and that you even mentioned in the podcast. if the guy is mad at somebody, he is probably mad about the people commenting and upvoting the thread without a clue how phpdbg works.
 
I think it would have been better if they managed to evaluete a bit sooner or if they would contacted you to get your help, but I don't think that it is right to call them pricks.
which reminds me that we need moar docs on phpdbg
 
> Its not up to PhpStorm, its up to the authors of the phpdbg
not true
> Do not make any mistake here. They certainly did not make "better xdebug"
debatable, certainly not true
> do not want to put any effort to make the tool "embeddable" as a visual debugger backend
not true
> ATM it solves none of real xdebug problems in a real world setup
not true, there is hardly configuration
> breakpoints
not true, loads more options
> performance
not true, totally different design, provably more performant
they were being pricks, there's probably some truth to what you say, but there's no reason to lash out at us and trash us in public ... none ...
anyway, I didn't say it to them, I said it to my friends ... I was reasonable in public ...
(it's not unreasonable to call a spade a spade)
the docs are on my list @Tyrael
 
@JoeWatkins umm, this chat is public ;)
 
yeah it is, but it's among friends ... and I didn't say anything wrong anyway ... I didn't even go as far as I wanted too ... so don't see the problem ...
 
7:55 PM
It's sad when someone is attacked instead of collaborated with: http://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/WI-21414#comment=27-767211 When a paid dev accuses a OSS of "not putting effort"
 
am just saying
aha. @ircmaxell summons a shitstorm
 
aaaand now the war is on :/
 
:-)
 
lol
 
I'm not involved in it, so I can do so without being vengeful :-D
 
7:58 PM
@JoeWatkins I think in it's current form xdebug is easier to rig into an ide and debug php web apps with it.
I know that xdebug is much slower and hijacks the opcodes so changes behavior
(btw. it would be nice to explain the differences in the docs)
 
@Tyrael totally reasonable, which is what is meant by debatable ...
 
I'm just saying that those answers were mostly targeted to the users who said that it shoudl replace xdebug
and not to discredit your work
 
that's not how it reads, to someone who done the work ... find it hard to believe you'd have a different perspective in my shoes, find it hard to believe you wouldn't want someone to say something ...
 
hi is there anybody know how can i go to this website cpanel. i checked 2020 port and 2082 and 8080 but all of them doesn't work i think it is windows host
 
8:01 PM
nobody likes a shitstorm, nobody likes to be walked over either ... you don't get to say things that aren't true without being called on it anywhere ... why not here too ...
 
(probably not the best blogpost on the topic, was just googling something quick)
 
@Markberg No. Nobody knows. Ask you host
 
I agree with the sentiment ... but don't see that we should behave differently if we do assume positive intent ... they still never asked us for stuff they said we are unwilling to do .. all I actually done was pointed that out and invited them to ask us ... nothing wrong with that is there ?
 
@PeeHaa can i ask why!!
 
8:08 PM
in Das JavaScript :: GERMANY, 1 min ago, by towc
anyway... what's an OSS?
 
@Markberg That reads as an question but the double exclamation points tell me it is an order. So....... 42?
 
@JoeWatkins I tried to give a positive contribution to the PHPDBG/PhpStorm JetBrains issue.
 
@PeeHaa would u plz to give me a reference to know about it
 
@Markberg Because it's not possible. Ask your host.
For more information, please ask here chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/57235/php-for-novices
 
7 mins ago, by PeeHaa
@Markberg No. Nobody knows. Ask you host
What else do you want me to tell you? The contact info of your host?
Thing is only your host can give you this information
 
8:12 PM
ok i find it because i thought it is the kind of info that everybody should know, should have to ask my host thank u
 
@JoeWatkins aparently they did oO
> b) actually we talked to you:
Q "can we separate stdout for debugger & script?"
A "You can turn colored output on, that should help you matching the different types of input"
 
he was explainnig the software the way it is ...
bob responded to that, that doesn't actually constitute a feature request does it ?
 
@JoeWatkins nope
whichis the irony :-)
 
> I should mention Xdebug maintainers fixed most major bugs we've reported during last 4 years, though we had to work on making them understand the usefulness of IDE for debugging for real php developers.
real php developers xkcd.com/378
 
@Gordon lol
 
8:22 PM
can I tell them to fix their attitude yet ?
 
@Markberg berg why do you want to go to this website cpanel ?
 
@JoeWatkins no, that won't help anyone. beat them with friendliness.
 
user895378
Apparently only real php developers use IDEs ... guess that leaves me out :/
 
Everytime I read the JavaScript transcript, I feel like I'm reading 4chan.
5
 
@Gordon php_mysql_real_developer()?
2
 
user895378
8:28 PM
ha
 
in Das JavaScript :: GERMANY, 1 min ago, by ircmaxell
So how's life over here in the 4chan^H^H^H^H^Hjavascript world?
 
lol, all they need is greentext potato epics and porn.
I had to share with them.
 
8:43 PM
@ircmaxell the thread and linked resources point that they have been contacted and confirmed no interest for proper integration protocol
 
@ircmaxell What a douche.
 
gets better:
@unirgy I personally know every single one of them, and they confirmed they were never contacted... So...
and out of that he took:
@ircmaxell Great! will expect faster debugging! :)
 
s/douche/twat cactus/
 
I just kicked someone out my local pub. They may have been 25 years older than me, but I still feel all manly.
 
@Danack You own the pub?
 
8:56 PM
@Danack You kicked the elderly out? :P
 
@PeeHaa Creepy old man was being really creepy.
 
@Danack I was just looking at the gals
 
60 year old guy going up to, putting arm around 21 year old girl and asking if she wants a boyfriend.
ick.
 
@Danack That sounds reasonable to me.
Maybe she did want a boyfriend.
Don't be quick to judge.
 
8:58 PM
Actually she said no, then he followed her back to her table.....after going up to every other woman in the pub.
 
That's called a linear search.
 
:P
 
@DanLugg I laughed way more than I should have
 
:-D
 
function ackersum($a, $b) {
    if ($a == 0) {
        return $b;
    } elseif ($b == 0) {
        return $a;
    } elseif ($a == 1) {
        return $b + 1;
    }

    return ackersum(1, (ackersum($a - 1, $b) + ackersum($a, $b - 1)) / 2);
}
I call it, the ackersum
 
9:03 PM
@ircmaxell you have a last-minute-rename issue
 
(0, 0): 0 - 8.1062316894531E-6 seconds
(1, 1): 2 - 1.9073486328125E-6 seconds
(2, 2): 4 - 8.1062316894531E-6 seconds
(3, 3): 6 - 8.1062316894531E-6 seconds
(4, 4): 8 - 2.288818359375E-5 seconds
(5, 5): 10 - 8.2015991210938E-5 seconds
(6, 6): 12 - 0.00029897689819336 seconds
(7, 7): 14 - 0.0011301040649414 seconds
(8, 8): 16 - 0.004331111907959 seconds
(9, 9): 18 - 0.016032218933105 seconds
(10, 10): 20 - 0.065190076828003 seconds
(11, 11): 22 - 0.26308488845825 seconds
(12, 12): 24 - 0.91911792755127 seconds
 
9:32 PM
@ircmaxell @unirgy Anthony, I've contacted all 3 devs listed at http://phpdbg.com/ back in March to get insight & have a reply from one
 
Well, 'bout time for me to be hittin' the ole dusty trail.
BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERnight.
 
Enjoy yourself, and don't lose a leg :D
If you meet some foreigners in need of help.
 
evenin'
 
9:47 PM
Evening.
 
@mikhail_vink @ircmaxell @unirgy we never recieved anything that looked like a feature request ... we were asked how to use it ... not same
@ircmaxell ^
 
yup
 
evening @webarto :)
 
10:04 PM
@ircmaxell why does it even need to be an RPM? :(
 
there we go, fixed my unit tests
all 4900 of them :P
someone had a test with the same class name <_<
 
@ircmaxell [tag:don't-forget-to-whine-about-licenses-and-make-everyones-life-really-hard-fo‌​r-no-reason-at-all-before-rpming-all-the-things]
 
at least they kept my license properly :-)
 
10:33 PM
I probably missed the point of that
 
10:47 PM
nvm, thought of another talk that I've already seen :D
 
:-)
 
Guys, I asked it yesterday but for some reason it didn't draw any attention though I find it curious - does the current implementation (or the next phpng generation will) allow to build new languages around php vm the same way clojure/scala are built around jvm?
 
11:03 PM
you can build wahtever you want around the Zend engine
but it would need to have PHP semantics, since it's really tied deeply to PHP (not generic)
 
@JoeWatkins any experience changing oxygen sensors? :)
 
@ircmaxell so it simply means "no"
 
11:37 PM
@PeeHaa I did?
Oh it went a bit mental on my gmail contacts, maybe it was that
 
@DaveRandom I thought I was special :(
 
You are. But it's a different kind of special.
:-P
 
Potato :P
Not a bad channel.
 
11:55 PM
hello,
Is it a wrong way to get a veriable from database?
$row=mysqli_fetch_array($result);
$pass_database=$row['password'];
 
Does it work?
 
No.. Please see the
http://justlive24.com/template/registration.html
my errorLog saying
syntax error, unexpected T_VARIABLE
You can check my full code here. I am just experimenting with mysql and php. i am absolutely newbie. Please help me to understand the fault.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/24747680/unexpected-t-variable
 

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