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11:00 AM
@AlmaDo That might be a ... minor ... challenge :)
 
I think I'm doing a LogicException right now
if (!strpos($authTokens, 'qop="'))
 
@NikiC Okay. Do it. I'll wait till tomorrow
 
Well, erm... Without the !, it's true. If I add the !, it's false. Am I being retarded?
"If this string doesn't contain this"
 
@Jimbo you write false !== strpos
then it is contained
 
Fair enough, verbosity it is
I'm not doing it in reverse though
Symfony love doing if (false === variable). In English it should be "If this variable is false"
 
11:03 AM
@Jimbo putting constant to the left of an operator is a good and easy was to avoid confusing = and ==
 
@Jimbo I hate that
 
It should read like natural language, I've always been told that
 
@AlmaDo fuck that.
 
Yes fuck that
3
:)
 
"If false is equal to this variable" < "If this variable is equal to false"
 
11:04 AM
@AlmaDo Doesn't justify the mini-confusion it gives decent programmers.
 
pile-on
 
//discuss
 
It's a good rule to follow if you're a "programmer" from some country that starts with I and ends with A.
 
hmm, didn't realize that people actually install my shiet... 160k installs O_o
 
@SecondRikudo As is Wordpress :D
 
11:08 AM
Any decent editor detects that error automatically....and as it's harder to read then it's for no benefit.
 
@Jimbo coding is not writing english.
and English is a pretty much effed up language anyway
 
@Ocramius No, but in order to make it as easy to read as possible, it needs to be readable as a native language
 
TBH I want to force === everywhere....which still isn't helped by having the constant on the left.
 
and seeing as we all code in English, that's what I meant
I wasn't being racist. I'm only like that toward Indian people.
 
@Jimbo my native languages are German and Italian - Yoda-style comparisons read well in both
:D
 
11:09 AM
@SecondRikudo what ?
 
@Danack I have few assignments in if blocks tbh
if (! $something = $repo->find($thing)) { throw NONO(); }
only case where $something is on the left :P
 
@Ocramius Er, it's not meant to be an assignment, thats a demonstration of a typo...
 
@NullPoiиteя Tricks like value == $variable and comma-first
 
@Danack yes, what I mean is that I have variables on the left only when it's actually meant to be an assignment
 
Which are meant to increase error detection
 
11:12 AM
@SecondRikudo What have you got against Indonesia?
 
@DaveRandom I was wondering when someone would say Indonesia :P
 
@Danack Your editor only detected an actual syntax error there
Only incidential because an fcall is involved
Normally it would be valid and I'd be highly annoyed if the editor complained about it
 
@NikiC would fail also with if (CONSTANT = $foo) {
 
Totally hate the if ((... = ...)) pattern that you usually use in C to shut up the compiler
 
11:13 AM
@NikiC yeah, but we don't assign to pointers in PHP :D
 
@Ocramius same issue ^^
but php ide's thankfully don't complain about it
and you can just write if ($foo = ...)
 
well, the tools still do
 
bah - I guess I meant something more like:
 
and phpstorm also complains about that
I disabled that inspection
 
 function foo($bar) {
     if ($bar = false) {
        echo "bar is false";
     }
     else {
         echo "$bar";
     }
 }
Get's picked up as an unused param.
 
11:17 AM
@SecondRikudo btw it takes time and quality to make reputation and i am agree with you .... most of developer here dont know basic things of probgamming like blog.kvijayanand.in/php-tutorial/…
 
time and/or quality hehe
I stopped at step 1.
 
?
 
and mai i ask what is that ? for me its opening THE book :P
 
@AlmaDo ^^^
@NullPoiиteя password VARCHAR(20) .. stop
 
why use that for passwords?
 
11:19 AM
LOL :D (grrr )
 
it can't fit any strong hash..
 
@AlmaDo i dont think he knows about the hash even :D
 
well. storing them as plain-text? okay, I'm off that case
 
ya that would be safe ..... (irony ) ----------
 
Hnnnnng my eyes!
 
user652649
11:28 AM
hello guys i need some help, i'm refactoring (for the millionth time) one of my applications and i'm stuck with the implementation of those functions that update entities in the database
 
user652649
at the moment i use to keep track locally of changes using two collections, one containing the original objects (MyEntity[] $original), one containing the instances that were changed during the requested update (MyEntity[] $changed)
 
Repository::save(Entity $entity)
 
more like add
 
user652649
this implies that when the task is supposed to be complete i need to call $this->flushChangesToDatabase(); which actually executes the needed UPDATEs
 
user652649
now if possible i want to get rid of this and apply the changes one by one directly to the database but not sure
 
user652649
11:30 AM
do you think it's a good idea? can you think of a case where keeping track of changes locally would be better?
 
user652649
hope i have been clear xD
 
user652649
@Jimbo i'm surprised that nobody said "static?? NO NO NO NO NO"
 
@Wesabi Oh, when describing object API's :: doesn't mean static. It's merely stating "this object has this method"
 
Yup ... :: is just the scope resolution operator.
 
user652649
:D
 
11:35 AM
However, with the left hand operand being a class name (in code) ... then yeah, static :)
 
user652649
anyway, it's about implementation, not api
 
user652649
the api should be pretty solid already (i guess :|)
 
why do you keep the originals?
 
user652649
i think i mostly did that to reduce number of UPDATEs that update the same row
 
hmm, as in, you calculate the exact column differences?
 
user652649
11:38 AM
yes
 
user652649
also to know the actual original MTime i think
 
seems like unnecessary duplication ...
 
@Wesabi As hesitant to recommend it, for you it sounds like time to give up and use Doctrine.
It does all of that for you.
Hmm - anyone know what to call case 2 in the example:
//Case 1 - explicit param names
$foo->setBar($bar);
$foo->setFot($fot);

//Case 2 - what is this called
$foo->setParams([
    'bar' => $bar,
    'fot' => $fot
]);
 
For these few weeks I had to work with Apple's Core Data, which isn't very different from Doctrine =D
 
user652649
it would be too much code to change @Danack even if i agree that i should take a serious look at doctrine
 
11:42 AM
Other than a bag of shite waiting to break when someone renames a variables.
 
@Danack Setting a param hash? /shrug, I've never seen that style of code given a name before
 
@Jimbo do you fancy lunch? If not I'll pop out now
 
@Danack Faith driven injection? :P
 
@Farkie Just busy with something right this sec, probably be 30 minutes or so for me, another time then
 
11:44 AM
Oki catch you later
 
@Danack Ah yes, AWS SDK is infamous for that ... everything is a bloody string.
 
user652649
@Ocramius can you take a look at my question? ^ thank you :*
 
@Danack Btw, I read that link as guzzle puzzle ;-)
 
@Jack mtdowling is a nice guy....but he needs to stop copying stuff from Symfony.
 
@Wesabi introduce a transaction object and do an automatic flush of all repos bound to it at the end of a transaction :)
then wrap operations in your code-base in transactions
not sure if that's the use-case
 
11:49 AM
@Danack I thought Jeremy was the original author of it?
 
user652649
but since i'm in a transaction and i'm allowed to commit and rollback, i can write directly to database (without keeping track of entities changes) @Ocramius
 
@Wesabi well, then it doesn't make a difference if Repository#add() just writes to the storage
 
user652649
yes, considering that the transaction itself keeps track of changes which i can either COMMIT; (== $this->flushChanges()) or ROLLBACK;
 
@Jack The current version is based completely on Guzzle and mtdowling is the author of that....and it seems when the AWS SDK moved to the current version, it picked up the style of doing config from Guzzle, which in turn copied it from Symfony.
 
user652649
did i understand right? so would you get rid of it?
 
11:52 AM
array $config all the things.
 
@Wesabi flushing and committing are different concepts
 
@Danack Ahh, gotcha :)
 
Who wants to argue against statics in PHP? chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/8595/the-2nd-monitor
 
user652649
@Ocramius well, yes :D
 
But I believe the strings as param names has always been part of it.
 
user652649
11:53 AM
talking about my very code
 
@Wesabi you should reword that then :P
 
Do PHP Exceptions have a maximum string length for the message?
 
user652649
:D
 
user652649
anyway thanks guys for the help, you are always gold
 
@Jimbo not afaik
 
user652649
11:55 AM
ah, another question, is repository supposed to have a save() method? i thought repositories were meant just for caching
 
hmm, isn't it the unitOfWork that has the save()?
 
repositories are just abstractions on top of a storage
they're not necessarily only in-memory strategies
 
@Jimbo yes, 2 gigabytes on windows.
 
> One of the developers of PhpDbg seems to dislike IDEs for some reason.
Hmm ... link
 
user652649
@Ocramius something to read about this? :P
 
11:59 AM
oops. SO main is down?
 
Nope
 
@Wesabi not really, no
 
yes, after refreshing it's up (shown page "we are offline")
 
@Wesabi I'm really bad at referencing where I get my knowledge from :-(
It's mainly practical tho
 
12:00 PM
Sep 15 '13 at 5:31, by Joe Watkins
I morally object to the use of IDE's ... it is wrong ...
That's my favourite I think
 
@DaveRandom haha
 
@Wesabi I just dislike applying fowler's definitions 1:1. For example, I think his UnitOfWork is effed up :P
 
user652649
that's because you invented oop programming @Ocramius
 
user652649
xD
 
@Wesabi =_= no, but really, playing around with it for a while, there's no decent way of working with his proposed interface
I'm still figuring it out though, it's one of my largest refactorings for d2
 
12:04 PM
@DaveRandom Hmm, the lack of a protocol does seem to be the crux.
 
What if I send @JoeWatkins a PHPStorm license? :D
 
He'll probably use the license to wipe his behind.
 
haha
 
such a bad idea
 
12:07 PM
POW
 
ok, send it deeeper..
 
I personally would like to advocate a dedicated site
 
horrible
 
vhttp://stackoverflow.com/questions/24736091/code-pulled-from-git-removed-my-upd‌​ates-in-same-file-local
0
Q: code pulled from git removed my updates in same file (local)

user3755198I have pulled my code from git , i know that there are some conflicts may happen .So i did following commands for git pull. Sudo git pull then i got following screen Then i moved my local changes to buffer using sudo git stash then i got this screen Then i pulled new code from git sud...

 
12:08 PM
@user3755198 Wow, you couldn't wait at least 10 minutes before dumping that question here?
 
@Jack "it's urgent" (:
 
and how is that related to php besides the fact that your git repo has php files in it?
removed the tag ... sorry, not applicable to this room anymore.
 
lol
now we know good way to kick vampires out?
 
^.^
 
anyway, we could always delete a question if don't want to answer, hehe :p
 
12:11 PM
I was under the understanding that you should stash your changes before making a pull?!
 
from the room you mean?
 
(and not the otherway around?)
 
yeah, git stash first (or commit into different branch)
 
Here, in room 11, we are very friendly and gladly will accept your question. Don't hesitate to post a link - we would delete the question gently and with applying all the efforts
:p
 
(i like how git calls it "stash" like "stash that overthere and we'll go through it when we have the time" xD)
 
12:13 PM
also, i don't like to do indiscriminate git pull ... that's just (clears throat) bad form :)
 

PHP For Novices

For all things PHP. Novice questions welcomed, don't ask to as...
 
@Jack what would you call it? terriblequestions.SE?
 
when I git pull I do with with --force (I'm THAT edgy)
 
PHP room. room #11. PHP for novices room. room #57235. Well, that's hell of a trip
 
@DaveRandom I was thinking of jays-quarry.stackexchange.com
@MoshMage That sounds to me like "I don't know what I'm doing" lol
 
12:16 PM
I can't hear JSON without thinkin Heavy Rain anymore.
 
@Jack it's not always I need to pull, if I'm pulling I fucked something up so I'm just like "yyyyyyeeeah, I'll rewrite everything no worries" xD
 
Yeah, I'll just git amputate my leg, no worries ;-)
 
@Jack Don't do that, he's git pulling your leg!
 
Anyone familiar with Docker?
 
@Jack bah.. you can always fork it
 
12:21 PM
git: unknown utensil 'fork'
 
^ looser :p
 
Yeah, I must have an old version.
 
@AlmaDo than what?
 
Hmm, SO having some issues?
 
12:22 PM
Cheers @Danack
 
Hello
@Jack:
Stack Overflow is currently offline for maintenance
 
Yup
They're having two load balancers fighting it out.
Wait, why is @StackStatus following Ryan Seacrest?
 
/me chuckles
Just had a bug report with a "parse JASON" alert
 
You don't parse Jason, Jason parses you :)
 
Closed bug with "I don't know a Jason"
 
12:29 PM
@Farkie pics or it didn't happen. you know the ordeal :P
 
2. Ensure your current production systems are solid <--- Gulp :-/
 
Pretty certain "ordeal" is not the right word there...
 
deal would suffice
Getting the pics could be an ordeal.
 
@Fabien Yeh, we have a big problem with liquid computers. It's got to the point where we had to employ a bloke to stand next to our cabs in the data centre with a mop and bucket.
 
lol
Who'd thought ice wasn't a good container for server hardware.
Well one of the (larger) benefits of using Wirehive is they provide some pretty hefty SLA. So granted we don't have a Sys Admin... we could ask them to do a sizeable majority of setup.
We're pushing for 1VM per dev in the cloud for development. One container for staging. And production is client dependant.
 
12:33 PM
@Fabien Why would you put your dev VMs in the cloud?
 
Access anywhere was their reasoning
 
why not?
 
Well for a start it's a bit of a waste of money, and for another thing I have 3 dev VMs to mimic various prod envs
 
meh, spot pricing makes them pretty cheap in comparison.
 
:D $boss paying for Digital BBQ now .. @DaveRandom you gunna go?
 
12:42 PM
how could one teach the project manager, that estimates from developers need a safety margin ?
 
heh HTTP Error 503. The service is unavailable. on SO
 
Time for some Scriabin and actual work to be done :)
 
yep
 
@tereško A swift punch to the nose?
 
@NikiC if it was just db drivers, then sure...
 
12:45 PM
@Farkie Can't, needed for Child duty apparently :-(
 
:(
 
@ircmaxell wth is that? O_o
 
@ircmaxell Alright that's obviously fake
 
12:49 PM
lol
 
Anyone ever had issues with Protected multilib versions:
 
@ircmaxell many more here: govnokod.ru/best?time=ever
 
bool isComputerOn() { return true; }
3
 
my favorite so far: govnokod.ru/55
 
blin :D
 
12:50 PM
Trying to install openssl-devel and getting that error.
Protected multilib versions: libselinux-2.0.94-5.3.el6_4.1.i686 != libselinux-2.0.94-5.3.0.1.el6.centos.plus.x86_64
 
define("_WINDOWS_",file_exists("c:\autoexec.bat") ? TRUE : FALSE);
oh yeah
or even "better" govnokod.ru/913
 
oh lord, I need to stop, otherwise I'll do nothing else
 
bwahahahaha
 
@AlmaDo is that the ACKERSUM?
 
@ircmaxell it's just for real men. Who's calculating sum with a hard way
 
12:53 PM
although it is wrong
the return line should be: return SUM(1, (SUM(A, B - 1) + SUM(A - 1, B)) / 2));
 
nothing is wrong if it's about govnokod (not sure if anybody understand what does that mean)
 
naive
 
"Great repository names are short and memorable. Need inspiration? How about finna-be-octo-wookie." #githuuuuuub
 
12:57 PM
argh, why did i click back into this room ...
 
18
A: Calling a function with explicit parameters vs. call_user_func_array()

ircmaxellThe reason is that there is overhead on call_user_func_array. It has the overhead of an additional function call. Typically this is in the range of microseconds, but it can become important in two cases: Recursive Function Calls Since it's adding another call to the stack, it will double the...

 
@ircmaxell hehe yeah, i'm not quite sure whether that was the reasoning behind this particular implementation .. but yeah, it's not complete nonsense :)
 
Given a table of moderation flags, would you favor naming the temporal column flaggedOn or createdOn? I sort of like generalizing my column names when the intent is similar across tables, such that all temporal record-creation-time columns would be named createdOn, but I'm just curious for opinions.
Also, good morning my fellow elevenites.
 
@DanLugg created :)
 
Not createdAt?
 
1:07 PM
createdAt
 
I prefer the on suffix, frankly. The question was more of the flagged or created terminology; in any case, I'm hearing love for created ;-)
 
because it's a creation date of the entity. Entity knows nothing about thing that it's "flag for moderation" inside inself
 
^^ That was part of my rationalization too
 
if you name it "flaggedOn" that's kind of breaking Law of Demeter, lol
 
Oh, it's a date without time?
 
1:08 PM
@Jack Hmm, good point.
 
@JoeWatkins have you seen the reply from the JetBrains guy: youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/WI-21414#comment=27-767057
 
@AlmaDo I actually don't follow that...
It doesn't know too much about itself something external.
 
^ it's not applicable in SQL, just a.. comparison
 
No, I get that; I was just trying to follow the analogy.
@Jack On = date, At = datetime?
That makes more sense, actually. Thanks @Jack
 
@Tyrael I think he's otherwise engaged, we were talking about it earlier and he didn't appear then either
 
1:13 PM
Known bug for anyone else Docker CentOS 6.5 libselinux protected multilib version here and here
 
@DanLugg No problem :)
 
@Jack idiot check please: why doesn't this work?
It still works fine when neither of the two new args are passed, when you pass the second arg you always get null
 
let me shee
 
@DaveRandom no problem, I'm fairly sure he will read it when he has time.
 
Wondering if passing str/strlen from zpp to zend_hash_find doesn't work like I think it should?
 
user895378
1:21 PM
@DaveRandom I agree; stream contexts must die. They're a weird artifact of procedural C. Having objects on which you set options is eminently more sensible IMO.
 
@DaveRandom Is **tmp somehow magically populated?
ohhh okay i see it lol
 
@Fabien I still say you're trying to jump too far at once, and that just packaging up applications to be deployed as a single 'thing' on your current server setup would be more likely to have a good outcome.
@rdlowrey Talking of which - are you going to get involved with this at all?
 
user895378
@JoeWatkins Re: the JetBrains phpstorm issue ...
 
@DaveRandom the problem is that array key lengths is actually the size ... so including the \0 :)
 
user895378
> Most important, it does not have any proper protocol suitable for reliable integration with any IDE.
 
user895378
1:24 PM
^ That's the main difficulty with the websocket thing.
 
user895378
It can be done, but it's difficult without some specific format/protocol.
 
user895378
Parsing unformatted shell output is time-consuming.
 
@Danack I'm just fishing around atm. People have given there 2 cents and I am looking in to those options. My problems are straight forward. We need an easy and good way to deploy our sites from Development -> Staging -> Production. That's all I am trying to set up.
 
user895378
@Danack No, I'm not. Any userland stream work is a waste of time (IMO) and an enormous performance bottleneck. A compiled solution is the only thing that has any use for me.
 
Thought as much.
 
user895378
1:27 PM
Let me rephrase. It's not a waste of time. It's just that, performance-wise, I have no use for it. It's far too slow to compete with techonologies like node at server scale. Like, several orders of magnitude slower.
 
aka can't build a castle on quicksand.
 
user895378
I went down the userland streams rabbit hole about two years ago ... The abstraction is great, but you have to decide where the performance cost starts outweighing the benefits.
 
@Danack I was advised (assuming I understood) that I should VM my sites for easier deployment. So I looked in to Vagrant. I read vagrant is pretty heavy and more suited to bigger changes like need a new OS for deployment. On to Docker. Is this the wrong direction?
 
user895378
PHP is in this weird place where a lot of people who grew up with it (and can't really code in compiled languages) have grown up to the point where they're sophisticated programmers. The result is the PSR stuff we have now. And these people are creating nice abstractions but inevitably they're too slow for serious applications because they're in userland.
 
@rdlowrey fecking rabbit holes.
 
1:32 PM
@rdlowrey What percentage of PHP jobs require the ability to work with compiled languages though :p
 
You mean what percentage of developer jobs require the ability to work with compiled languages?
 
user895378
@Fabien I'm just saying PHP has reached a point where it has many more sophisticated coders using it than its reputation might suggest :)
 
@ircmaxell I was thinking about the bool issue - but then again, mysql won't be able to return a bool anyway, because we can't distinguish between int(1) and bool. so moot point
 
@Jack So I need to len + 1?
 
@DaveRandom I've added comments to your github codez
 
1:34 PM
@rdlowrey yeah. Thanks to you guys @ php-src :)
 
@rdlowrey And yet, over 80% of the web is powered by WordPress..
 
user895378
@SecondRikudo :(
 
The other 20% by jQuery.
 
@Jack kk thx
 
np~ the phpng branch fixes that btw
 
1:35 PM
@Fabien Yes. Although you would be better of with VMs to make your life easier, that's really a separate problem from making applications be deployable. Docker is really not easy to use, and requires a lot of architecture changes...which would just be far too much change at once.
Just figuring out how to improve your deployment processes incrementally either by building packages, Chef/Puppet or just a really nice bash script, would give you deployable applications sooner, with little investment and without the huge risks that are inherent when changing everything at once with not much experience.
@rdlowrey I had to explain what a memory leak is at my last PHP meetup.
 
@Danack I have a package that works with Puppet. I'd still need vagrant no?
 
@Fabien No. You'd just install puppet on the server/client and let it do it's thing.
 
@Jack for the record that's a really stupid inconsistency
 
Vagrant is solely to allow developers to test everything locally, to remove all cases of "well it works on my machine". That's the only thing it really solves.
 
@DaveRandom It surely must have seemed like a good idea at the time.
 
1:38 PM
How do I keep sites separated?
 
I like to use swords
 
exacto knife! sword of exact zero
4-finger swipe ... oh apple, thou really cracketh me up~
 
\o/
 
@Fabien you don't currently keep them separated apparently....I'm suggesting not changing that at the moment. Just concentrate on making stuff easy to deploy first, to avoid having everything change at once. Yes, having everything on VMs would be nice - but any solution involving VM will still need easy to deploy stuff...not the other way round.
 
1:41 PM
[cw@dev01 php-src]# php -r 'var_dump(stream_context_get_options(["test" => ["foo" => "bar"]], "test"));'
Segmentation fault
@Jack ^ :-P
 
well, that's rather interesting.
wait, you didn't test it?
 
I'm sure I can deal with that myself, although I'm a bit confused as to why it would happen
 
@Danack One issue we currently face is different PHP versions required for different sites. I can run multiple php versions personally but unsure if that's a valid solution.
 
user895378
@Leri Following those numbers is like watching a stock price day-to-day. There's always weird jitter. The only thing that matters is the line of best fit over time.
 
@Jack didn't test what?
 
1:43 PM
@DaveRandom Where does it crash?
 
Just valgrinding it up now
 
@NikiC yeah, I don't think there's any good answer there...
 
Gotta put kiddos to bed first ... I doubt it's the hash find itself though @DaveRandom
 
@Fabien That is the problem that vagrant solves. You would need one vagrant setup for each of your hosting environments, with the correct PHP version that that host uses. You can then switch between developing different sites really easily.
 
Well that's a mux I had considered but was trying to keep sites split rather than environmental requirements.
We're in a period of overhaul though. Hence the trying to go balls deep with deployment.
 
1:45 PM
lol. So.. I have been coding a top-priority module since wednesday (some of you might remember) turns out... Project Manager didn't even approve this module, let alone top-priority it
 
@Fabien Yeah....I don't think that's the right approach. Vagrant should be configured to reflect your current hosting environment, rather than having your development environment drive your hosting environment.
 
Well the end hosting environment is clients choice as they're the ones paying. Unsure if we even know that at the time of site creation.
So all in all you're suggesting keep sites on same server. Split servers up by environment types (PHP(s)/Node) etc using Vagrant.
 
user895378
Jesus, there are way too many mails on internals regarding scalar hinting to read through them all and catch up. Anybody want to summarize the action so far?
 
Move to Docker slowly - IF docker suits the needs.
 
@rdlowrey Yeah, they're being written faster than you can read them. If you wanted to do that, of course...
 
user895378
1:48 PM
@NikiC Has the RFC changed much from Anthony's original work?
 
@rdlowrey I see. Well, I was looking for F#'s position in programming world and was quite surprised by that. I'd expect VB.NET to do that and credits would definitely go to .net platform..
 
STOP! (no hammer time) NikiC and Lowrey work on the same building? :x
 
No
 
@rdlowrey from what I read up to this morning, the main point of contention is how "casty" things should be: no cast, cast without dataloss (otherwise E_RECOVERABLE), cast without dataloss (otherwise E_NOTICE) and just always cast...
@rdlowrey no, there were a few tiny tweaks, but nothing significant
 
@NikiC works in Germany and @rdlowrey works in his pants.
 
1:49 PM
@Fabien heh, then "internals" must mean something like "mailing list"?
 
user895378
@Fabien I only work in pants sometimes.
 
PHP Internals
@rdlowrey It's a top 10 benefit of remote :p
 
You know.. Almost everyday I feel like a noob around you. I'm sure that's a good feeling x)
 
Only almost?
 
@Fabien I'm saying that having a development environment that matches the actual hosting environment is the big win of Vagrant.
Being able to deploy stuff reliably with Puppet/Chef/bash script or whatever is the next big win. Re-hosting everything is a huge project that should only be undertaken when you know what you want but Docker probably won't be part of that solution, as it requires re-architecting almost everything, and sysadmins who are far more experiences at devops that your company appears to be.
 
1:52 PM
Well seeing as my company devops experience ends at me. Probably right :P
 
btw @Fabien you really ought to read System Antics:
Disclaimer: this book may lead to feelings of pessimism about the cruel nature of the universe
 
lol
@Danack Tempting. I wonder myself how far I will need to go with sys admin stuff. Not like it's an intended goal but it's enjoyable.
 
user895378
@Danack That cover looks like a book about systems.
 
user895378
E_NEEDS_MORE_PERSONALITY
 
@rdlowrey Or about how I'm we're all going to hell.
 
1:53 PM
I should get a kindle.....
> You'll understand why the Federal government and computer systems work the way they do.
 
General Systemantics (retitled to Systemantics in its second edition and The Systems Bible in its third) is a systems engineering treatise by John Gall in which he offers practical principles of systems design based on experience and anecdotes. It is offered from the perspective of how not to design systems based on system engineering failures. The primary precept of treatise is that large complex systems are extremely difficult to design correctly despite best intentions and so care must be taken to design smaller less complex systems and to do so with incremental functionality based o...
It's written in a highly ironic style.
 
user895378
@Fabien I had one. Great for reading (way better than my ipad). Then it just up and died the day after the one-year warranty expired. I was so annoyed by the timing that I refuse to purchase another one (even though it's the best digital reading experience I've had.)
 
I actually cannot recommend the book highly enough.
 
user895378
@DanLugg It does look like an old-timey revival pamphlet.
 
@rdlowrey Sounds like they have a good mathematician at Kindle.
@Danack How much are you yourself involved in system admin stuff though, professionally?
 
1:56 PM
@Fabien If you get one, I'd want to hear your review. I want to buy one for a while but not sure if it fits tech literature.
 
user895378
The issue I've had is that most of the tech literature I read is in PDF. For that you generally need a large screen.
 
@Leri From what I have seen and felt of kindles they seem pretty awesome. I'm only hesitant at the need to purchase my current programming books as kindle versions.
@Danack Any chance that book has some pop-out pictures?
 
@Fabien Define professionally.....not much, I mean I've configured vagrant +chef to be be able to test locally and deploy stuff to Amazon ec2 by running the command launchInstance.php but that's just for my own sites.
 
@Danack I'm trying to ascertain to what extent learning as much sys admin stuff fits in with my goals to earn money vs my goals to learn other stuff.
 

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