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7:00 PM
 
Doesn't make it less gross.
 
Not at all, just surprising that you guys haven't seen this before is all.
 
Probably have - but the therapy worked.
 
hehe
 
Hmm how to change drive in console2?
 
7:08 PM
write
> D:
.. noob
 
Yeah been a long while since I used it cheers :P
 
Ah the disappointment when you realise you forgot to commit your work from the office :'(
Office is alarmed on weekends too.
 
7:25 PM
morning
 
Morning
 
Mornings
@tereško You try out Tokyo Ghoul yet?
 
watched the first episode
moved to "watch later" pile
 
What's in the watch now?
 
github.com/krakjoe/phpdbg/issues/124 … hmhmhm… * evil face *
 
7:42 PM
@bwoebi tbh i haven't looked at phpdbg at all - so I have no idea if you've done this already, but edit and continue is far more useful than stepping back imo.
 
@Danack open a feature request please. Both should be useful.
Maybe we can also step back, edit and then continue
 
“Please enter a password with letters or digits only” *sigh*
 
That'd IMO most useful… that we can immediately in place test if result is correct
 
@akrabat It's so they can be sure it displays properly when they email it to you afterwards
 
@Danack could you please add a feature request at github.com/krakjoe/phpdbg/issues so that I'll be able to come back to it later?
 
7:57 PM
I'm stucked on Autoloader och -> pastie
 
yeah...let me remember how it works in visual studio so I don't write a bollocks request.
 
@VeeeneX I have no idea what you're doing here, but I suggest you to just use psr-4
 
@bwoebi I'm using Symphony UniversalClassLoader named as Autoload and edited to be "static"
 
@VeeeneX as said, no idea about that…
 
@bwoebi Can I explain it to you if you have a time...?
 
8:06 PM
@VeeeneX I think I'd be quicker if you ask someone who has more idea about it
 
Hm but who?
 
no idea
 
:D
 
just don't do it on holidays
 
@VeeeneX edited to be "static"
 
8:13 PM
:D
Can I create namespace alias?
 
8:30 PM
morning
 
Morning @Leri
 
Oooh a second season for Mushishi. How did I not know?
 
ACK! How'd I end up in PHP?
 
ABORT ABORT
 
@SomeKittens Because php is so awful that you easily fall in love with it?
 
8:39 PM
 
I loathe PHP with every pore in my body.
well, rather, PHP "programmers"
 
@salathe :D
 
@SomeKittens Despite its WTF php is pretty descent language, tbh. I can't say the same about existing "frameworks" though and that's what makes php bad.
 
@Leri I will not suffer a language that suffers idiots.
 
@SomeKittens Ah, a Haskell programmer.
 
8:46 PM
Ew, Haskell.
 
What exactly is it you dislike about PHP?
 
Haskell is a great way to identify people who don't actually care about getting things done.
@Fabien The vast majority of people who write it.
 
So you don't dislike PHP.
 
@SomeKittens In all fairness. Isn't the ratio about the same in JS?
 
@PeeHaa Not in my experience.
There are bad JS programmers - but they typically don't write JS as their main language.
Let me tell you a story about the last guy I worked with in PHP.
 
8:49 PM
@SomeKittens Let me remind you jQuery devs. :)
 
:-)
 
Live site goes down. Alarm bells, etc.
I ssh in, turns out there's a syntax error. Missing }
Check git - yep, Wheatly was the guy who committed it.
Never even ran the code before pushing it directly to prod.
 
Wheatly is dead now rite?
 
@SomeKittens Idiots gonna idiot, though. It's language agnostic.
 
But see, I knew Wheatly was an idiot. So I had set up git to run all of our tests before he could commit any code.
But the tests didn't run.
I asked him - what did you do to the commit hooks?
"Oh, they're still there"
"Can you run `cat .git/hooks/pre-commit` ?"
"Yeah, file not found"
"That doesn't make sense"
"Oh, yesterday GitHub was down so I deleted the .git folder thinking it was me"
 
8:53 PM
lol
 
lol
 
@DaveRandom That's a lovely thought. However, every single one of the "worst codebases Kittens has worked with" has been in PHP.
Again - this is solely my experience.
 
@SomeKittens Dude STFU. Just be happy you never had to work with a JS codebase I have written. You got off easy!
:P
/cc @DaveRandom ;)
 
@PeeHaa I'm just glad I don't have to deal with any of the codebases I wrote even a year ago.
 
8:55 PM
uh-huh. Mine are even worse :-P
 
:D
 
Fight legacy code. Write unit tests.
 
@SomeKittens I'm not disagreeing that PHP has a disproportionately high number of idiots, I'm not going to pretend that the vast majority if PHP code out there isn't hateful, and neither am I going to claim that the language is perfect (far from it) but it isn't the fault of the language that all those people suck
 
Correlation may not imply causation, but it sure is doing a lot of nodding and winking.
 
8:58 PM
@AlmaDo Not every unit test makes sense though.
 
class Model_User extends ORM
{
    static $t = 'user';
    static $k = 'id';
    static $f = 'user_id';
    static $r = array(
        'posts' => 'Model_Post',        // Has many posts
        'roles' => 'Model_Role',        // Has many roles
        'profile' => 'Model_Profile',   // Has one profile
    );
    static $b = array('roles' => 'Model_Role');     // Belongs to roles
}
let me unsee that ..
 
@AlmaDo How does one unit test a 4k LOC file with exactly zero functions?
 
it causes dark energy inside me to awake
 
@PeeHaa Why the fuck would you do that?
 
9:00 PM
@SomeKittens when you'll try to write unit-tests, you'll fight legacy code. And to fight legacy code, you need unit tests. It's recursive process
 
Oh I forgot, everyone knows minified PHP runs faster
 
@AlmaDo That's not how, though.
 
@SomeKittens yes. "how" ? - "refactor the code first"
 
@SomeKittens I concede that it does seem to attract people who suck. But those people are also generally busy working with WP and Magento so it's easy enough to spot (and avoid) them
 
There are so many things that suck.. easier to recount which do not suck.. wait a moment. I can't remember
 
9:02 PM
Things that you wrote yourself
Although most of them suck as well
I know mine do
 
Things that I wrote myself suck
 
But at least I know that
 
@PeeHaa There is an obscene amount of cryptographic mistakes in so little code ^^
 
well. not at all. They begin to suck in couple of month. May be year, if I wrote them really good
 
To be fair, most of the code I write in any language sucks. I've written some really sexy looking C# in the past, it still sucks
 
9:03 PM
@DaveRandom Where'd tvtorr go?
 
@NikiC Exactly :)
 
@DaveRandom so. Code in C# does suck, right? But it sucks sexier?
 
@PeeHaa I've found five issues in one line alone :/
 
@Fabien They fell out with their hosting company, they're expecting to be back up in the next week or so though (according to one of the mods in IRC)
 
furry
 
9:05 PM
@AlmaDo It sucks OOPier
 
I quickly glanced over the first and last line and had seen enough :p
 
Hooray for me starting to create a PHP Installation Guide in dutch for Windows Server 2008 R2 with IIS
 
Wish there was a Netflix for anime. hell even a Amazon prime
Crunchy Roll sucks
 
^ Netflix sucks. And amazon too
I don't know about netflix, but amazon sucks at least because they are sitting on the 3-rd floor and I'm sitting on 6-th
 
@DaveRandom It's .net sucking not C#
 
9:07 PM
Well .net does suck, I was referring to my own code though :-)
I really like C# as a language
 
I think it's the code that sucks, not even .net
 
No, .net really does suck
Most of it, anyway
Some things make sense
 
well, don't want to argue. Let it suck
 
I think the only reason people think it's good is because they used to work with the raw win32 APIs, and literally anything seems good in comparison
 
win32 api? is it really an api?
 
9:09 PM
And .net isn't even a good enough abstraction that you don't end up having to import funcs from std DLLs in almost any given class
 
may be.. win 32 A Pitfall Inside ?
 
Actually, a lot of stuff about windows really does make sense
The window notification API, for example
But a lot of it really sucks extremely hard
 
@DaveRandom It makes enough sense to run… yes, but to really make sense…? no.
 
It simultaneously both sucks and blows
 
A language doesn't suck because of the language, it sucks because the user (is) using it (incorrectly) :)
 
9:10 PM
@bwoebi "more sense than some of the more obscure POSIX weirdness" would probably be a better way of phrasing what I meant
 
@DaveRandom weirdness? In POSIX? Unbelievable :-P
 
Standards that were compiled by hundreds of disparate groups of people over many years are always awesome. No, wait, the other thing...
That's one thing that closed source has going for it sometimes, fewer people sticking their noses in resulting in "solutions" that please nobody
 
@DaveRandom Isn't that THE WAY (tm). Several small groups of people all doing what they do best and work together to make it actually useful :P
 
@DaveRandom people often just don't have much idea about good APIs...
I'm maybe not great in designing my own APIs… but I think I do fairly well at improving others APIs…
 
This is very true. I highly doubt there is any API for anything with a version number <2 that could be described as "good"
 
9:15 PM
At least that's what @rdlowrey made me think (the part about improving others APIs)
@DaveRandom Well. Aerys. Has a version number << 1…
 
Until some people have built some actual applications around the API, no-one knows if it's good.
It is just not possible to anticipate every problem domain ahead of time
(I think this is one of the biggest myths in project management in general)
 
That's why we already are trying to use Aerys before any release…
 
@bwoebi should I put on hold the development of phpdbg-ext?
 
I speak to you as someone who is (if I do say so myself) pretty fucking good at listening to people's description of how they want their phone systems to work, and translating that into something that actually makes sense and is probably what they really wanted. I have never, once, ever, got it 100% right first time.
 
I actually had some time this week, but after the recent event, I'm not sure I should keep going.
 
9:18 PM
@FlorianMargaine I don't know. Will be able to tell you by the end of next week…
 
Yeah :( Future problems suck.
 
@DaveRandom An API isn't only good when it has 100%. But there exist some APIs which already are good from the first public release on.
 
Measure twice and cut once all you can but Mr. Cockup is inevitable.
 
@Fabien No, future problems just cannot be planned for - that is not in itself a problem. Solve the problem you have now, do it in such a way that your code will not be completely illegible in 6 months time when you need to modify it in some way, that's all you can do.
 
9:21 PM
Decouple all the things!
 
Open/Closed is nice in theory, not that easy to do or arguably even that productive in practice
 
Are complete rebuilds necessary then?
Or just call it BC breaking builds
 
@DaveRandom magento is not that bad imho
 
@FlorianMargaine GTFO
 
I mean, compared to WordPress...
 
9:23 PM
:P
Nice recover ;)
 
@Fabien You don't have to break BC, just don't be afraid to change stuff at all
 
Even without comparison, actually.
 
Actually I would say magento is worse than wordpress
 
BTW @FlorianMargaine Do you have many active Drupal sites you work on/with?
 
Both horrible code and terrible to maintain / work with
 
9:25 PM
@Fabien as in right now?
 
I would say magento is more fundamentally dangerous than WP because of the subject matter it was designed to deal with
 
Yeah
 
A couple of people have said that Drupal 8 is not completely awful
 
I work in an editor right now... So only projects that aren't open yet
 
It's a lot of libraries in a good way.
 
9:26 PM
@DaveRandom yeah, for those that can install it.
 
Yeh I imagine it's a huge BC break
Same as fixing WP would mean that no-one could migrate
 
Even huger (is that a word?) than you imagine...
I understand why they did what they did, but I would've provided a bridge...
 
I've never actually tried to build anything with it so I can't really comment
 
ok people. I don't know what is going on @ OP, but I am 99% sure he is the only one and something somehow is fucked up on OPs end
 
9:28 PM
@FlorianMargaine Oh no I meant as in working on in general. Currently maintaining as in how difficult was it to patch them all?
 
oooooow I see :P
 
Seeing people go from D7 -> D8 would be interesting. For the most part.
 
clicking that link crashed Chrome @PeeHaa
 
Yeah Chrome is getting more and more horrible
Either way I think the only way to get OPs issue is by having an empty timestamp
 
@FlorianMargaine Fair enough :)
 
9:31 PM
@Fabien Is D8 OOP or still procedural?
 
That said, I'm glad I quit my old web agency. It must've been a nightmare over there.
 
OOP
 
@Leri got something against procedural? :P
 
@FlorianMargaine Why a nightmare? Easy money I would say
 
@FlorianMargaine Drupal is a little too enabling for low-end devs sometimes. But I guess that's partially the point.
 
9:32 PM
How large applications can it handle?
@FlorianMargaine Yes, WP. :P
 
Drupal?
 
@Leri Unsure but you can cache the hell out of it.
 
Wp is bad procedural. Drupal is pretty good.
 
Learning curve Drupal is much greater too I think.
 
@Fabien not the logged in users...
 
9:33 PM
user image
2
 
@Leri it can handle pretty big applications. You just need something big to start with... Default Drupal with 256MB will crash half the time. But it scales pretty well.
 
You'd need a good dev with a good understanding of Drupal too.
 
And well... Php is easy to scale horizontally...
 
@PeeHaa A sly prod as to how PeeMS is going? :P
 
@Fabien What about intermediate dev with 0 understanding of drupal (me)? :P
 
9:36 PM
@Fabien Will give you a preview soon
ish
 
@Fabien well as I told you, my company has people in Drupal security team, and many maintainers of Drupal modules... We don't miss good Drupal devs :P
 
@PeeHaa this supports that theory, note that first string has the full string supplied as the first ctor arg
 
@Leri Depends why you're in need of a CMS IMO.
@Leri if not urgent maybe wait for @PeeHaa's :P
 
And in OPs exception message, both are simply '@'
 
Keep in mind it's well overdue and ignore anything he says about when he thinks it'll be done ;)
 
9:37 PM
@DaveRandom Yeah. Just what I thought! I have balls somewhere in my code!
 
@FlorianMargaine Maybe they all work with/for you :P
 
Good thing is, I have fixed the empty timestamp issue a long time ago. So go go gadget close all the issues!
 
@Fabien Reviving some of my old ideas and I'd definitely need some sites made fast (without taking my time). :-)
 
BTW I had a PDO issue the other day that I fixed by changing bindParam to bindValue; It was an array of user IDs but it only broke on certain IDs. Is that weird?
@Leri Well as mentioned, Drupal has a learning curve. I've no experience with D8 though, @FlorianMargaine is the guy to ask on Drupal hands down.
 
@Fabien define "broke"?
 
9:40 PM
By break I mean return a blank result.
No error, just no return from DB.
 
My guess is conditional reassignment somewhere between bind and execute
memegenerator is slow tonight :-(
 
memgur is good
 
@Danack repobox.io
 
You seen that?
 
9:44 PM
ow wait @Fabien were you doing something like:
foreach ($ids as $i => $id) {
    $stmt->bindParam('id' . $i, $id);
}
?
 
minus the 'id'
 
@Fabien, @FlorianMargaine Thanks for insights. I'll discuss my business needs on Monday. If any questions will arise, I'll ping you. :-)
 
I'm going to let you read that code, and carefully consider what it does, and you'll see why that would break ;-)
@PeeHaa Is that @Danack's thing?
 
Nope.
 
Nope it is not. Just found competition :P
 
9:48 PM
I'm really not sure why people would pay for that...
 
@DaveRandom I get that it's the markers :. At least I think I do. I was wondering why it broke only on some IDs. Not all.
 
@Fabien It's because you are binding the $id variable, by reference, to every placeholder. And the values of $id gets reassigned on every iteration...
So when you call execute(), it's executed with the last value in every placeholder
 
Oh
 
So I can't tell you why it would work for some IDs, would depend on what the query is doing
@Fabien good rule of thumb: you don't want bindParam, you want bindValue
 
lol
 
9:51 PM
> All of this library's functionality is driven by static utility methods which perform single operations and accumulate no state.
 
Gotcha
 
bindParam is only really useful if you are executing the same query repeatedly in a loop
 
Aaaaaaand another laravel developer who doesn't get why it is baaaad
 
I'd read this after I fixed. A case where most upvoted is better than answered.
 
And even then it's not an awesome way to do things, because it's non-obvious (IMO)
I actually pass an array to execute() 99% of the time
 
9:52 PM
BTW real men use PDOStatement::execute unless it is not possible
@DaveRandom Damn. Too slow again :(
 
:-P
 
It's pretty late here. Off to bed. Later.
 
Night Leri
 
Noight @Leri!
 
I do have an extended PDO/PDOStatement pair that I occasionally use that overrides those methods to use the appropriate PDO::BIND_* const based on the type of the variable (amongst other things) but I'm still not really sure there's any point in that
nn @Leri
More usefully, it also lets you pass an array of params to PDO->query() and PDO->exec() and wraps them in a prepare()
 
9:58 PM
I don't like wrappers that do that
 
Oh the wife requested fibre. May have already mentioned that
 
@Fabien s/requested/demanded
 
But she in Iceland and she got a follow up call but missed it :'(. Wonder what they wanted to follow up about.
@PeeHaa heh. She works from home too so she wants fibre almost as much as I do.
 

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