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10:00 PM
gist.github.com/DaveRandom/6286b4083bac4ea2c9bf not sure if that's a working version or not
@PeeHaa I don't use it much, not used it at all for a while
Sometimes I get lazy though
 
Laziness can be a great quality in a developer.
 
Oh also it has a thing to automagically expand arrays into placeholder lists
 
Quick question: which backtrace is better?
frame #0: Arya\Application->Arya\{closure}() at /webserver/vendor/rdlowrey/arya/lib/Application.php:159
=> call_user_func_array(function_name=Closure#16 (2) ["static" => array(1) [...], "this" => Arya\Application#2 (9) [...]], parameters=&array(0) []) (internal function)
frame #1: Auryn\Executable->__invoke() at /webserver/vendor/rdlowrey/auryn/lib/Executable.php:50
=> call_user_func_array(function_name=&array(2) [0 => Auryn\Executable#14 (3) ["Auryn\Executable:callableReflection" => ReflectionFunction#13 (1) [...], "Auryn\Executable:methodInvocationObject" => null, "Auryn\Executable:isMeth
 
(something which IMO PDO should do by itself)
 
frame #0: Arya\Application->Arya\{closure}() at /webserver/vendor/rdlowrey/arya/lib/Application.php:159
=> call_user_func_array(function_name=Closure Object (), parameters=Array ()) (internal function)
frame #1: Auryn\Executable->__invoke() at /webserver/vendor/rdlowrey/auryn/lib/Executable.php:50
=> call_user_func_array(function_name=Array ([0] => Auryn\Executable Object ([] => ReflectionFunction Object ([name] => Arya\{closure}),[] => ,[] => ),[1] => __invoke), parameters=Array ()) (internal function)
 
10:02 PM
@bwoebi The one in a pastebin?
 
dude gist or pastie
 
:-P
 
answer invalid :-P
 
srsly, can't read that like that
 
https://gist.github.com/bwoebi/5e827d03d78384a49fdd

^ which backtrace you prefer?
 
10:05 PM
What's the limit on the element expansion? I don't want it to expand things with a thousand members...
 
(note that it'll wrap in terminal… at least the long one with expanded args)
@DaveRandom in the second one it's a soft 75 chars per arg
 
Yeh I do prefer the new one in general, I'd maybe consider putting the args on new lines and indenting it though @bwoebi
 
@DaveRandom that'll make big backtraces too big.
(consider recursion…)
 
They're already huge, and you don't show them on the front end anyway
What difference is a few more bytes going to make?
 
10:10 PM
@DaveRandom how do you mean? it's normal phpdbg cli output
 
Oh right of course, I was reading the latter as a regular exception trace but it isn't
I don't know, I hate terminal line wrapping
Maybe make it configurable?
I don't mind a long output block, I do mind a wide output block
 
I agree with the guy above me
 
@DaveRandom well… I don't know what your terminal widths are. I usually use terminal in full-screen mode which is 410 chars wide for me.
and the new one is always one-liners for me.
 
410???? No PHP developers do that.
(mine are 200)
All I ask is that you make it configurable...
I'm not trying to force my stylistic prefs on you...
 
@DaveRandom well… I don't know, so I asked
 
10:14 PM
@bwoebi "410" lol wut.
 
@DaveRandom and why did you wonder so much about the 410?
Is that too much?
410x126 chars… isn't that comfortable?
 
@bwoebi You have to remember that the average PHP developer spends a lot less time than the average C developer in the terminal, and also that the average PHP developer has a browser open on their biggest screen, and most of them will only have two screens and a lot of them won't have two really big screens
 
Did you mean 140 @bwoebi ?
 
why would you use a 410 terminal width?
 
@Danack no, 410.
 
10:16 PM
@bwoebi if you fill your entire screen with a terminal
 
I use the same width the for terminal as for my line length limit, which is 120
 
@DaveRandom yep, I do. In a separate space (or how ever your os calls it)
 
That's fine, but people who are actually using phpdbg won't be doing that
 
@NikiC I hate it when backtraces and compile warnings/errors wrap…
 
Like I say, just make it configurable and everybody is happy :-)
 
10:18 PM
@DaveRandom yea… okay. What's a sensible default then?
 
@bwoebi Duh, that's easy to fix
Don't write buggy code :P
 
Well, I would say 200 because that's what I use. Could you do it with ncurses or similar?
 
@NikiC Since you're here....do you know of any reason why gc_collect_cycles() isn't called automatically before an out of memory fatal error occurs, with the allocation retried after the GC is done?
 
@DaveRandom I mean per arg.
 
@NikiC so that's what I've been doing wrong. It's so simple!
> Could you do it with ncurses or similar?
Magic is always good
No, wait, the other thing
 
Shite?
 
@DaveRandom Imagining gdb with ncurses… mhm… no!
@DaveRandom okay… I'll use a dynamic solution depending on your current terminal width…
 
@Danack If I had to come up with a reason, I'd say it's because GC may require allocations. But the truth is likely that it just wasn't implemented, because PHP's memory management model doesn't make it particularly useful.
 
@bwoebi what doesn't sit well with you about that? (out of interest)
 
@DaveRandom pardon, I don't understand?
 
10:24 PM
Oh sorry, colloquialism, "what doesn't sit well with you about" == "what don't you like about"
 
Hey @NikiC, do you like @DaveRandom's additional splat usage RFC?
 
@AndreaFaulds the list() element is going to be removed, btw
 
@AndreaFaulds I think that the first part is reasonable
 
@DaveRandom What, why? :(
 
@DaveRandom about what?
 
10:26 PM
@bwoebi About using a dynamic solution
 
@DaveRandom wait, not really?
 
@AndreaFaulds Because PHP arrays.
 
@DaveRandom I just said that I'll use one!? Or where's the issue?
 
@NikiC Oh, I guess it'd act differently to ... in other places, yes :-/
 
@NikiC Hmm. I'll raise it on list then. What I'm seeing in a program is that due to the nature of how it's written there are relatively few allocations happening. But the allocations that are occurring are large as they handling file downloading. This means that the GC isn't being fired (because it's not hitting 10000 root buffers) and so the program is 'running out of memory' even though 90% of the memory is unreferenced.
 
10:27 PM
@AndreaFaulds what would happen if you did list($a, ...$b) = [1,2,'a'=>'b', 78=>90];?
 
/the pings, the pings.
 
Sometimes I want to make better APIs for PHP arrays. But to be honest, what PHP needs is List and Dictionary classes.
 
because if I did list($a, $b, $c, $d) = ... it wouldn't work
 
Which are first-class citizens.
@DaveRandom Yeah, exactly. But function foo($a, ...$b) { } would work there. (Or rather, it would if @NikiC ever implements named params ;)
 
@DaveRandom And even weirder, consider the case where the first element and the element 0 do not coincide: list($a, ...$b) = [1 => 0, 0 => 1];
 
10:28 PM
Yeh but that's because we don't have named params
 
@DaveRandom just handle it like array_slice().
 
@bwoebi ...except that list with explicit params doesn't do that
 
In short: list() is ArrayAccess, but ... is Traversable. Both are incompatible.
 
hello everyone i am a newcomer here
 
@DaveRandom which is just realized. Then just assign ...$b the remaining array, after removing all the used ones.
 
10:30 PM
@NikiC That's a good summary, I'll put that in the RFC in the section that I will add pre-emptively explaining why list() is not included
 
@Pradiptadas Hi, your site is broken :)
 
No, it's under construction!
 
Hmm... What I want is static function __fromArray(array $x) : self; and function __toArray(): array;
 
@bwoebi I could go with that but I can see other people complaining about it, I might make a separate RFC
 
@peehaa yes i am working on it
:)
 
10:31 PM
That way, you could create collections that convert to arrays
 
@DaveRandom that's fine too.
 
:)
 
will be active within 7-8 days
 
@Pradiptadas fair warning: if you post any code in this room at all, expect it to be mercilessly dissected. You will be quizzed on every single element of it and why you chose to do it like that :-P
But welcome
 
:D
 
10:34 PM
:p
 
Also if you are planning to stay here longer you would have to sacrifice one virgin and someone in this room should have dropped your database at least once
Enjoy your stay :P
 
sure why not :)
 
:-)
 
@peehaa nice to meet you
:)
 
@PeeHaa s/virgin/kitten/
 
10:37 PM
lol
 
:p
 
/me really needs to actually do some work
 
foo
 
I only switched to Chrome to look something up in the bootstrap docs, like an hour ago
 
So after a week of slacking you actually start to do something on a saturdaynight?
 
10:38 PM
related: I hate front-end dev
 
So, um, argh
I'm trying to figure out what to do about the ZPP Failure on Overflow RFC
It's not the patch - it's nowhere near completion, but I could force myself to finish it if needs be
It's the whole concept.
aaaargh
 
I've not read that for a while, what does it do with zpp in general?
Does it add any extra specifiers?
Oh wait sorry I was thinking bigint
 
@DaveRandom For internal_function( int $a ), internal_function(PHP_INT_MAX + 1); errors
Currently it silently truncates
 
There can't be many (any?) internal functions where overflowing would give sane behaviour/not just result in out-of-mem, a straight up failure seems like a sane thing to do (where you emit a warning (notice?) and just let the function's == FAILURE imple handle it)
I can't see that breaking much userland code
 
Ah, sure, except for one liiitle problem
Most functions flat-out skip execution and raise a warning
So they silently fail to run, which is kinda bad
 
10:46 PM
yay PHP Guide done and uploaded to the college online site.
now time for my own project to go further with the installer :)
 
Well, not silently... but E_WARNING is usually little more than an error in a log file.
 
#Parteh #Timmeh
 
Well without exceptions in the engine there's not really anything else you can do
I still think that most of these things should be put on hold until that matter is settled...
 
Don't look at me
 
No, I'm not touching that behaviour
 
10:47 PM
@NikiC why did no-one reply bar?
 
That isn't an exception and I think it never will be
 
/me looks and @NikiC
 
Meh, I'll get off my arse and spend 73 minutes working on tests
 
I'm timing you
 
@AndreaFaulds Why 73 minutes?
 
10:48 PM
Ready... go!
 
@NikiC then it's midnight there.
 
Oh that's right
 
@bwoebi (
 
Even I didn't notice that and I'm in the same tz
 
@NikiC [
 
10:49 PM
@bwoebi {
 
@bwoebi <
dammit
 
>
 
}
 
, (
 
!
 
10:49 PM
Brains aside, I wonder how many poorly-written xkcd.com-parsing scripts will break on this title (or ;;"''{<<[' this mouseover text."
8
 
:)
 
... ^^
 
)
 
]
 
, "so, did that smiley close the xkcd?"
 
10:50 PM
, "yes"
 
)
 
yay!
 
and we're done, the day is saved
 
Oh man, finally not having to type --disable-phpdbg is such a great feeling.
 
@AndreaFaulds because phpdbg just works now? :-)
 
10:53 PM
@bwoebi Because it won't break my build :)
 
@AndreaFaulds You didn't have to type it, it's disabled by default ;)
 
$ cat ../config
#!/bin/sh
make clean
./vcsclean
./buildconf
YACC=/usr/local/opt/bison27/bin/bison ./configure --disable-all --enable-debug --enable-maintainer-zts --enable-phpdbg "$@"
@NikiC ^
 
@NikiC (Andrea was too lazy to remove --enable-phpdbg from her build script)
 
@bwoebi I didn't want to remove it because phpdbg would only be broken temporarily
:p
 
Well, it was broken for a fairly long time…
 
10:55 PM
@bwoebi She's using the programmer definition of "temporarily", where it actually means "permanently"
 
Also, I had planned to do the port to 7 beginning september but I've only done it mid october…
@NikiC Who's he? ah okay
 
@NikiC Except, clearly, it wasn't permanent :)
 
@AndreaFaulds in first approximation
 
Also, while I might've been inclined to use vld before for debugging opcodes while phpdbg was broken, Derick was a complete asshole at PHPNW14 and mocked phpdbg because he couldn't be bothered to read the manual, so I will refuse to use vld or xdebug on principle
 
> If randomly dispensed from the ceiling in the form of loose change, Mark Zuckerberg's income would pile up at an inch every minute.
I love xkcd
 
10:57 PM
@DaveRandom Which xkcd/what-if?
 
This week's what-if
 
Asking for an acquaintance; is there some mod abusing the system to delete on-topic answer on stackoverflow.com/questions/8190530/…
/need to get that last 664 rep
 
My cat really goes nuts for the small of microwave burgers. Little bastard.
 
@Danack original answer should have been deleted, new answer is better and should not be deleted.
Original answer is basically link only
 
Ah.
 
11:07 PM
Also @Danack that generics thing is a truly horrifying hack.
And it's not just horrifying because obj-c
@Fabien How are you even still alive?
Seriously, if your wife ever goes away for a month or something you are screwed...
 
lol
Cooking, ain't nobody got time for that.
 
user652649
pastebin.com/B44ckemz an idea about autoboxing. linked to @PeeHaa today but he blatantly ignored it xD
 
ajf@andrea-VirtualBox:~/Projects/2014/PHP/env32/php-src$ make
make: *** No rule to make target `/home/ajf/Projects/2014/PHP/env32/php-src/ext/phpdbg_webhelper/phpdbg_rinit_hook.c', needed by `ext/phpdbg_webhelper/phpdbg_rinit_hook.lo'. Stop.
@bwoebi I BLAME YOU!
 
@AndreaFaulds not sure how to reproduce?
 
hmm
I could just disable phpdbg
 
11:14 PM
is that file there then?
 
sigh
Hmm
Nope
 
you did a buildconf first?
 
Yes.
Wait, what
I think git screwed up its checkout
 
hmm?
 
The directory's completely empty
 
11:17 PM
It should be a symlink to sapi/phpdbg
not an empty dir…
 
Ohh.
It's probably VirtualBox Shared Folder weirdness, then.
Also, symlinks are bad, Windows users can't use them...
 
@AndreaFaulds well, windows doesn't need that hack
under windows I can build exts under /sapi too.
 
Know what? I'll just disable phpdbg here
 
@AndreaFaulds know what? I now know what I do next.
I'll fix acinclude.m4 do enable exts to be in another dir…
 
@bwoebi Allow building sapi exts? :)
 
11:20 PM
I fucking hate m4, but I even hate it more when m4 doesn't work like it should
 
Isn't it kinda silly having two different build systems?
Why couldn't we, say, use m4 for Windows too?
 
well… then I'd prefer w32 for *nix…
 
@AndreaFaulds huh?
 
@Patrick git on windows does not support symbolic links
They appear as plain files
 
ah. should have read the whole conversation :D
 
11:28 PM
@AndreaFaulds what does this have to do with git? configure command should create the symlink currently…
 
@bwoebi *.w32 is just... JS that looks suspiciously like m4?
@bwoebi Oh, it's configure that makes it? OK.
 
@AndreaFaulds well… at least it's not bash
 
@bwoebi We could use .w32 for *nix too if we make nodejs a dependency ;)
 
and then try to introduce a php dependency in nodejs somewhere too, please?
 
11:31 PM
holy crap, I knew reddit was full of idiots, but this brings it to a new level: reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/2kyvbz/…
 
@ircmaxell which post in particular?
 
like 98% of them
 
I bet a Drupal security fix patch would suck to be released on anyones Friday evening.
You know what'd be interesting for IT related books. A digital copy with every purchase and on the digital copies (online) there was commenting allowed for each section.
 
@AndreaFaulds How about "because m4 sucks big fat hairies"?
@Fabien Shared, you mean?
Like, a read-only Google doc of it or something?
 
11:47 PM
Shared yeah.
Basically like if Anthonys blog was a book instead.
But more book orientated.
 
Ask Randall to do a what-if on the subject, see how long it takes for civilisation to break down
 
A book only really pursues the authors agenda and directive. Having alternative opinions could be insightful. Assuming the opinion isn't stupid.
 
> Assuming the opinion isn't stupid.
...
 
Yeah. that's the big one.
 
Opinions are like arses. Everybody has is one.
4
 
11:50 PM
lol
With it being digital though you could have subjective filters on comment authors you want to see.
 
@DaveRandom +1.
 
@Fabien It would be pretty hard to make it useful, would probably need some kind of voting system, by which point you basically just re-invented reddit
 
Are there any decent vote based comment systems out there?
 
/cc @PeeHaa
 
user895378
morning.
 
11:52 PM
You aren't @PeeHaa! Go away!
 
Well reddit is linked to a singular piece of content. This niche would be the book angle here.
 
:-P
 
Morning @rdlowrey
 
mornings
 
user895378
@Fabien Are you interested in an artax setting to rate limit the number of requests the client will make per-host per time period?
 
11:54 PM
I can't believe this guy isn't dead yet:
 
@rdlowrey Yes. :). But is it something others would be?
 
@DaveRandom huh?
 
A range would be useful @rdlowrey. Less robotic so to speak :P
 
@PeeHaa commentar
 
Is it vote based?
 
user895378
11:56 PM
@Fabien Hmm ... maybe ... I'll turn it over a bit.
 
@Danack tl;dw
 
@Fabien Yes once it is finished :P
I already bought the domain this year so I didn't have much time to actually work on it :P
 
Has anyone in this room except @ircmaxell and @NikiC ever finished anything?
 
hehehe
 
have I ever finished anything myself?
 
11:58 PM
password-compat seems pretty finished
 
ok, so I was able to finish a simple 4 function library. great :-P
 
opcachegui is pretty close to a v1 though so I can relax a couple of years before I finish the next thing :D
 
user895378
@LeviMorrison I couldn't agree more. Too much architectural wankery. Just expose the basic functionality and access to the raw data. Then people can create any API they like.
 

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