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1:00 PM
so it would be n3291..
 
There is practically no difference between n3290 and n3291, content-wise.
 
ok but where am I supposed to find it?
 
If I'm not mistaken, n3291 specifically marks the changes compared to previous versions by red strike-throughs and blue additions. You really don't want to read that, you want n3290 ;-)
 
sure
I have it on my hd, but I can't find it anymore on the web.. well I just wanted to add the concerning reference to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_(computer_science)
 
1:05 PM
heh link is dead
the one to n3290
 
> n3291 is a formatted as an internal working draft. It has revision marking to show what has changed since the previous version, n3242. See page 80 [basic.align] for an example. To those following the progress of the standard, that makes it much easier to follow.
> n3290 is the formal ISO final draft international standard (or FDIS) aimed at national bodies and so on. It has a formal ISO title page with a standard rubric explaining what it is. It doesn't have any indication as to what has changed since the previous working draft.
I have no explanation as to why the links are dead. You could ask a question on SO if you're that curious ;-)
 
nah I have it on my hd, that's enough
 
Me too, luckily :)
 
Xeo
I find it interesting that the n3291 link automatically refers you to n3281
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: What happened to n3290 and n3291?
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Have you seen n3290 and n3291?
That's better. Shall we put it on a milk carton?
 
Xeo
1:13 PM
Wanted: Dead or Alive
Ah, I know what happened
Was just formulating a question on SO proper and see what the related questions brought me: stackoverflow.com/questions/6086180/… (comments)
I don't know what you mean~ humming
 
Okay I just made backups of n3290 to all my partitions :)
 
Xeo
Lol.
 
authorization required?!
 
Xeo
But yeah, I'm glad I got it earlier this month. :)
 
Certainly don't want to lose such a valuable document.
 
Xeo
1:19 PM
@Nils Yes, read the comments on the linked answer. The ISO standard isn't free and has nearly exactly the same wording as the FDIS, so it makes sense
 
So you need to pay for it or what?
what's the FDIS?
 
Xeo
@Nils Yes
 
@Nils Final Draft International Standard
 
ah lol and this one is free :)
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow Don't try the markdown
Doesn't work within words
@Nils It used to be
 
1:20 PM
dang
 
ok cool
 
Xeo
Maybe they were monitoring SO and noticed how many are referring to things in it and probably already saved it to disk. :)
 
Can't you just google for the PDF? The first hit turns up this link...
Oh wait, that's something else entirely :-)
 
Xeo
Yeah
It only lists the people involved :)
 
Well, not un-interesting...
Damn, all those FAQs with references to the standard have lost quite some value now somehow... :(
 
Xeo
1:29 PM
:(
Wanna make an FAQ on what happened to the n3290 and n3291 links? :P
 
Oh, one finds interesting stuff searching for those pdfs:
 
please discuss
2
Q: How can a user become a non-owner of a chat room?

Johannes Schaub - litbI observed that a user previously was among the owners of a chat room, but after some time, s/he disappeared from the owners list. How can that happen?

 
Xeo
@FredOverflow The overview is really interesting
15 hours ago, by sbi
I might actually have taken @Johannes off, or someone else did it. I really don't know. (I'd like to feel I'm not the only one doing this janitor job.) However, as @Tony has already explained, it fits with the room policy.
 
@Xeo Have you seen the video yet?
 
I think it shouldn't work that way
 
Xeo
1:38 PM
@FredOverflow Nope, thanks
 
cpx
I think the less frequent user must be removed.
 
Users unpwning other users makes me sad :(
@cpx Yeah, that would make some sense.
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow "unpwning" sounds mean
 
@cpx i think that makes sense.
 
1:39 PM
@Xeo Not interested in C++0x videos in general?
 
but that can also be done automatically
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow "Nope" as in "not seen yet" and "thanks" as in "thanks for the link" :)
 
@FredOverflow i like those!
please post more. it all goes into ~/media/xxx
 
@Xeo Ah, thanks for the parsing hint. You're like a human typename ;)
 
Xeo
Heh, maybe I should've added a "!" behind that thanks. :)
 
1:41 PM
@JohannesSchaublitb Well, most of them can be found via youtube or google video, so...
 
4
A: May a reference be more efficient than a pointer?

Prasoon Saurav May a reference be more efficient than a pointer? Nopes! Not necessarily. The Standard doesn't say that either. Most compilers implement reference mechanism via use of pointers. References were added to C++ to support operator overloading and not for efficiency.

 
@JohannesSchaublitb ~/media/xxx? Why are you putting C++ videos in your pron folder?
 
What do you guys think?
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow I gotta admit, that's the same thing I thought.
 
@PrasoonSaurav I think the question is stupid.
 
1:43 PM
Yes! My answer got downvoted :(
 
you can have "references in C++" by passing a pointer to a pointer
 
Xeo
Yeah, compiled down to assembly there isn't anything more than pointers anyways
@Nils What?
 
Pointers are typed. There is no such thing as pointers in assembly language, only addresses.
 
@Nils Sorry?
 
1:44 PM
typo for ~/media/cxx im sorry! lulz (actually, I did it on purpose...)
 
to the question, you don't need references for efficiency
 
@JohannesSchaublitb So, how many C++ videos have you collected yet?
 
i was just kidding -.-
 
You are a grown up guy. How could you kid?
:D
 
how come you associate "xxx" with pron
 
1:46 PM
Because that's an established convention?
 
my prons are in ~/unterlagen
 
My C++ media folder looks like this:
Bjarne/
Lavavej/
Ale_VCSafeLib.wmv
An Overview Of The Coming C++ Standard.flv
Boostcon-BoostCon2009Keynote487.flv
BorisJabesOnCCLIIntellisenseAndCGameDev_ch9.wmv
C++ Stylistics.flv
C++ Threads.flv
caches.flv
CheckingInJeffWilcox_ch9.wmv
Concepts Extending C++ Templates For Generic Programming.flv
ConCRTPPLTasksCodepack1_ch9.wmv
ConCRTPPLTasksCodepack2_ch9.wmv
ConfINRIA10juin1_stroustrup.rm
ConversationWithHerbSutter_ch9.wmv
Devdays020_ch9.wmv
E2EMeijerSutterNative_ch9.wmv
FT19.wmv
GD_SEH_Exceptions_512.wmv
 
Xeo
That's a nice list
 
The flvs are from youtube or google video.
 
Xeo
1:48 PM
Oh! Those concurrency videos, I need to watch them too sometime
 
When I saw that directory listing following Johannes's comment I was suspecting something else... :D
 
@FredOverflow Nice :)
 
i wanted to watch boostcon 2011 videos...
are they up already?
/dev/sda4 69G 64G 1.9G 98% /
 
It has only been one week or so, I would be surprised.
 
1:51 PM
Hm, I think I have enough stuff from Scott Meyers to finally warrant his own directory :)
 
@StackedCrooked yeah NO i do NOT want to know what is in Bjarne/!
 
67017-Multirate-200-to-753-kbps-480x360.wmv
C++0x An Overview.avi
C++0x Initialization Lists.flv
StroustrupSutter1.flv
StroustupSutter2.flv
 
i think herb looks attractive thou. much better than in his "official" in-front-of-his-books picture
 
He looks much better without the beard, yes.
 
1:52 PM
@FredOverflow Wasn't it a moustache?
 
Perhaps, I'm not too familiar with facial hair terminology.
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow Propose it on Area51
 
propose what? "C++ video site"?
 
What, a site whose sole purpose is to discuss facial hair? LOL
 
Oh, Scala, nice. How come we never discuss Scala here?
 
now that Go has a GCC frontend i may start playing with it
 
have to learn go for web stuff
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Do you dare learn Go (the programming language) and Go (the game) at the same time? ;-)
 
have you guys heard about that JavaScript virtual machine fabrice bellard did?
what do you think about it
 
1:55 PM
@FredOverflow I want to learn both.
 
@FredOverflow i played the game for fun in the past
 
Link please
 
@JohannesSchaublitb no..
 
my professor plays it for fun and took us to one of his go player meet ups
 
heh Starcraft is the only game I know a bit, I don't know chess or go
 
1:56 PM
i think i'm still registered on one of those big Go player networks
but really i'm a big noob boss
 
Xeo
I wanna play Mahjong sometime again. :(
 
one guy on IRC plays go and challanged me and I painfully lost xD
 
@Xeo I used to play Mahjong way back on my Commodore 64 :-)
 
I should buy an iPhone app for it then I would probably learn it :)
so.. back to work
 
On a sunday?
 
Xeo
1:59 PM
@FredOverflow I hope the real one, not Housewife Mahjong. :)
 
@Xeo Never heard of that, what is it?
 
Xeo
Housewife mahjong is the memory like one, where you need to find pairs
the real mahjong is a 4 player game
 
@Xeo Indeed, that's the one I played. I do cook for myself btw, so it seems kinda fitting :)
 
Xeo
Yea, it shamefully stole the name of the original just because it uses the same tiles
Mahjong () is a game that originated in China, commonly played by four players (with some three-player variations found in Korea and Japan). The four player table version should not be confused with the popular western single player (tile matching) computer game (Mahjong solitaire) which is a recent invention and completely different from the table game. Mahjong is a game of skill, strategy and calculation and involves a certain degree of chance. In Asia, mahjong is also popularly played as a gambling game (though it may just as easily be played recreationally). The game is played w...
A bit like Rommé if you know that
just with tiles instead of cards
 
most of my colleagues don't know about stackexchange. that's sad
 
2:04 PM
Did we ever joke about programmer sex change?
Oh, nice question:
34
Q: Languages on a resume: Is it better to put "C/C++" or "C, C++"?

KevinI'm graduating in a couple of weeks, and my resume (as expected) lists the languages that I've had experience with. Previously I've put "C/C++", however back then I didn't have that much experience with these two languages as I do now. Now that I've formally learned these two languages, it has b...

 
Xeo
@FredOverflow That's a good one
 
This is the best answer there
15
A: Languages on a resume: Is it better to put "C/C++" or "C, C++"?

DarknightIf you want to remove any ambiguity simply bullet point them: C C++ This will cover, all angles including any parsing too.

 
has anyone proposed C++/C yet?
 
Xeo
Lol.
 
lol
 
2:09 PM
another option would be C{,++} to prove that one knows how brace expansion works
 
pretty sure that's not legal C or C++
 
@DeadMG Well, both C/C++ and C++/C invoke undefined behavior.
 
it would only be a good idea if your resume also includes "bash" :)
 
How about C(1/++)? :P
 
@FredOverflow that would be fun if the employer asked the guy "now there's something wrong with your language list. Can you find out?"
 
2:12 PM
I seriously doubt the employer would have a clue about UB and sequence points...
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow Just hope that your employer doesn't directly compile and execute the parsed text in his mind
 
2:23 PM
97
A: What does && mean in void *p = &&abc;

Prasoon Saurav&& is gcc's extension to get the address of the label defined in the current function. void *p = &&abc is illegal in standard C99 and C++. This compiles with g++

3 more needed :P
 
@FredOverflow Undefined behavior is likely. Sequence points, ..what are they again? :D
 
@StackedCrooked They are deprecated :)
 
Xeo
@PrasoonSaurav I'm stumped by the popularity of that question
AHAHAH @PrasoonSaurav !! If it weren't for the downvote, you'd now be at 100 :>
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Sequence points are sequenced before C++0x
 
that's got many upvotes
must have been on reddit
 
2:29 PM
haha! this question is very badly formulated and still the number of views is 108,060 ;)
 
Xeo
> viewed 1,682 times
@PrasoonSaurav Ahh, that one
Well, gratz for gold bage @Prasoon :P
 
@Xeo I gave him upvote #100 :)
 
funny that my binary-numeral answer is now at 111
tho 110 worked too
 
cpx
@FredOverflow Hm, I thought the last vote was mine lol
 
@FredOverflow thanks @FredOverflow :)
 
Xeo
2:31 PM
But I gotta admit, I'm surprised at the voting popularity of this question, even though the views aren't that high
 
@cpx Hm, sounds like a race condition? :)
 
This is funny.
191
Q: Will high reputation in Stack Overflow help to get a good job?

Shamim HafizIn a post, Joel Spolsky mentioned that 5 digit Stack Overflow reputation can help you to earn a job paying $100k+. How much of that is real? Would anyone like to share their success in getting a high paid job by virtue of their reputations on Stack Exchange sites? I read somewhere that, a perso...

 
i think we should give this answer 3 more upvotes:
8
A: C++ const keyword - use liberally?

Oren SThis, IMHO, is overusing. When you say 'const int age,...' what you actually say is "you can't change even the local copy inside your function". What you do is actually make the programmer code less readable by forcing him to use another local copy when he wants to change age/pass it by non-const...

kudos if you notice my cruel trickery!
 
Voted up. 9 downvotes are way too much :(
 
2:50 PM
Heh, I personally decided that if I would ever find myself wondering whether a parameter is modified in the body or not (when reviewing an implementation) that it would be time to refactor the body
Just so I can sidestep the whole decision of systematically having const or non-const parameter
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Na, I upvoted your answer instead.
 
@PrasoonSaurav Somehow the top two answers ("Yes" and "No") are both compelling.
 
my boss always pets me with my high rep.
@FredOverflow ohh thanks!
but I really think it's not good as a job indicator
 
Als
3:12 PM
@TonyTheTiger: Hey there
 
@Als Hello
 
Als
@TonyTheTiger: Check my profile i got a new tagline! :P
 
@JohannesSchaublitb You work? For some reason I thought you were still a student..
 
@JohannesSchaublitb do you want me to add you again as room owner?
@Als lol :P
 
Als
Room Owners...hmm
 
3:22 PM
@FredOverflow nice video library :) :) I'd be interested in the concurrency ones, where did you find them? (besides Channel 9)
 
@TonyTheTiger Could you list the specific file names you are interested in?
 
Als
Is there a way to get intimated, about new Q's being added in main SO, like pop ups of indicators? there was a feed system here i havent seen it work for long though
 
The feed is only for the c++-faq tag IIRC.
 
Als
it used to show feeds here?
i remember seeing it
for c++ tag
 
Yes, new c++-faq questions were fed here.
Not sure if they still are.
 
Als
3:29 PM
i cant see them ..since long
 
C++ Threads.flv
caches.flv
Parallel Computing.wmv
 
Als
is that a setting room owners have turned off or something?
 
Oh and if someone adds a new answer to this question:
47
Q: Setting up a FAQ for the C++ tag

sbiA while ago Neil Butterworth, one of the most highly reputed people in the C++ tag (he has given so many good answers, that in the two months since he left, his defunct account has amassed >2000 rep from old answers), left here, obviously in frustration about Stack Overflow. I have since heard a ...

According to this, the feeds are still intact.
 
@FredOverflow that link doesn't seem to work
 
Als
neither the link nor the feeds work
 
3:30 PM
@FredOverflow oh and do you know of any with Bjarne? I've only found one on Google Video's
 
@JohannesSchaublitb hmm, I'm not relying on sizeof to inhibit instantiation in the "query" code, I'm relying on the use of T<> * instead of T<>.
> Unless a class template specialization has been explicitly instantiated (14.7.2) or explicitly specialized (14.7.3), the class template specialization is implicitly instantiated when the specialization is referenced in a context that requires a completely-defined object type or when the completeness of the class type affects the semantics of the program.
 
oh the swatter (swapper) is back!! :)
 
(14.7.1/1) - I thought this means that using memo<> * doesn't cause any instantiations because the type can be incomplete.
 
Als
@FredOverflow: If you fit that as one ssection, we could tag it!
would be nice to have them handy
i dont know if can be done
 
3:44 PM
I could make a question in the C++ faq if enough people thought that would be a good idea...
 
Als
That would be great! You have my vote
 
@Potatoswatter since a call with T* as argument may add ADL candidates, T is instantiated if it is a template because the completeness of T "may affect the semantics of the program"
 
@JohannesSchaublitb I don't understand how that follows from the standardese.
 
(note that in the FDIS, that paragraph says "may affect". not a plain "affects"
it couldn't know whether or not it affects the semantics in beforehand without instantiation, so they clarified the rules
 
Hmmmmmm… this does not bode well.
 
3:52 PM
@Potatoswatter if the class type is instantiated, hence complete, it will declare any friend functions declared in it to be found by ADL and by a call f(a T* arg). See open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/cwg_closed.html#34
 
So there's really no way to refer to a type that may not yet be instantiated?
 
sure if you do T *t;, T is not instantiated. but once you use t in an ADL call, it is
 
Okay. But that's not a lot to work with :v( .
 
How were you trying to work around this?
 
3:56 PM
i didn't use friend functions
I couldn't increment the counter from a local scope. just at namespace scope
by declaring the functions explicitly. -.-
dunno whether that breaks the rule xD
 
Hmm, that really limits the applicability of the solution…
 
@Potatoswatter hmm im sorry for the bad news :(
 
@JohannesSchaublitb lol. Thanks for the help anyway… I'll look for a workaround and fix the answer.
… in that order ;v)
 
4:16 PM
@JohannesSchaublitb added you as room owner again...
you're free to remove yourself again, if you wish :P
 
Xeo
@Johannes, @Potato: Can't one abuse ADL and unnamed namespaces in some way?
 
@Xeo - it's easy to hide the friend, but hard to let it be found when you want.
Especially since each instantiation is a separate associated class for ADL.
As for anonymous namespaces specifically, they aren't very different from explicitly-named ones. By definition they behave as if assigned a unique name, which is nominated only in an implicit using directive.
 
Xeo
Oh, @Prasoon
On stackoverflow.com/questions/6161235/…, why didn't you post that link in the comment as an answer? It'd answer the question perfectly. :)
Maybe with the reply from bjarne quoted
@Johannes, got any new ideas on this one ?
 
4:36 PM
@Xeo: How does my answer not answer the question?
 
Xeo
@DeadMG It does, too, but you know, a text from the language inventor serves just so much better as an answer. :)
 
no, not really
the best answer is the answer that solves the problem at hand
having text from the language's inventor is utterly irrelevant
 
Xeo
No wait, which question are you referring to?
 
@Xeo The problem with C++0x initializer lists is that their size is only determined at runtime by initializer_list::size().
 
the second one you linked- the one about array init
 
4:38 PM
@Als In case the feed does not work:
0
Q: videos and podcasts by C++ celebrities

FredOverflowSince I got tired of posting these links again and again in the C++ lounge, here is a collection of C++ videos and podcasts that I find particularly interesting, sorted alphabetically by the celebrity's last name and then roughly by publication date. Feel free to answer this "question" with your ...

 
Xeo
Ah, then forget about what I just said, I thought you were referring to the first one
And no, for the array init it doesn't quite emulate the full behaviour. See @Johannes comment on @Xaade's answer
 
ah, that makes a little more sense
however I would be incredibly, insanely miffed if you didn't accept an answer because you wanted a Bjarne quote
 
Xeo
Yeah, like I said, I thought you were referring to the first question, for which @Prasoon commented a link to an answer from Bjarne :)
 
even so
a Bjarne quote is not a better answer just because it's from Bjarne
 
Xeo
No, that quote also clears up what Herb meant in the GotW
In my mind, I always expand "GotW" to "Gotcha of the Week" ...
 
4:43 PM
the question does not relate specifically to the GotW
 
6
Q: videos and podcasts by C++ celebrities

FredOverflowSince I got tired of posting these links again and again in the C++ lounge, here is a collection of C++ videos and podcasts that I find particularly interesting, sorted alphabetically by the celebrity's last name and then roughly by publication date. Feel free to answer this "question" with your ...

 
Ah, there is the feed :)
27 links total, that should keep people busy for a while :)
 
after all
why should an answerer get rep for just posting someone else's opinion?
 
5:35 PM
Not necessarily C++ related (more graphics) but still very interesting channel9.msdn.com/Shows/InsideXbox/…
 
boost.asio claims you can implement HTTP on top of it. Sure you can. Has anyone done it already?
I only need to make the same GET request all the time, so I don't mind doing it manually, but an existing library would be better :)
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow I edited the question a bit, see the comment
 
5:50 PM
@MartinhoFernandes Found the cpp-netlib which is actually being developed for submission to boost.
 
@Nils Paris Hilton is gonna sue you for trademark infringement.
 
?
 
David Charles Hahn (born October 30, 1976), also called the "Radioactive Boy Scout", is an American man known for having attempted to build a homemade breeder nuclear reactor in 1994, at age 17. A scout in the Boy Scouts of America, Hahn conducted his experiments in secret in a backyard shed at his mother's house in Commerce Township, Michigan. While not successful in creating a nuclear reactor, Hahn attracted the attention of local police who found radioactive materials in the trunk of his car. His mother's property was cleaned up by the Environmental Protection Agency ten months late...
 
I've seen that (David Hahn)
lol
 
Jez
5:56 PM
hello everyone
 
@Jez I can't speak for everyone, but I give my personal hello.
 
Hi all!
 
Jez
so i'm guessing that, being interested in computer languages, you may well be interested in human languages, right? :-)
 
The Python room is currently empty, and I need a place to vent my anger about the two downvotes I received for this answer:
0
A: partition string in python and get value of last segment after colon

Space_C0wb0yUse this: "client:user:username:type:1234567".split(":")[-1]

Does anyone here have any idea what could be wrong with this>
 
Jez
anyway if you are, you may be interested in following / voting on my area51 french language proposal.
53
French Language & Usage

Proposed Q&A site for students having questions about French, expert speakers of French wanting to discuss the finer points of the language and translation questions from any language to French. Questions may be asked in English or French.

Currently in definition.

 
5:58 PM
@Space_C0wb0y Either your answer was in C++, in which case downvotes were appropriate, or the downvotes were a proxy for Python in the C++ room.
 
@Potatoswatter: Ok, got it. Only C++ in here. Makes sense.
 

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