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2:03 PM
Why does MSVC suck so much at SFINAE?
 
@iksemyonov yeah
@rubenvb SFINAEFINAE
 
This is really frustrating. Every workaround I try just results in the SFINAE failing one level deeper.
 
2:24 PM
@rubenvb is it possible to switch MSVC out for something proper like clang or gcc while using Visual Studio? Just wondering. Sometimes I come across a job posting where they say they are using VS.. shrug
also there is a problem much worse than broken SFINAE: missing a Vim mode plugin. That's the dealbreaker.
 
@nwp Great, TY! That's good news, both of them.
 
@iksemyonov Well, yes, but I'd like to keep that compiler compatible with my code.
Or rather, my code compatible with that compiler.
It just seems extremely difficult
At work they're at VS2013.
Which is just even more terrible.
 
2:39 PM
@rubenvb Sure, that's a reasonable requirement in a commercial project
 
What's worse, they have Clang set to C++11, so no std::make_unique either.
Oh, and of course Boost is evil.
Because there might be something useful in Boost.
grmbl
 
@rubenvb what's the deal with std::make_unique<T>()? I was reading Prof. C++ the other day and they said "whenever your compiler supports that construct, use it exclusively over the constructor".
 
@iksemyonov 1. It's exception-safe. 2. It prevents you from writing extraneously gigantic initializers.
 
is having void* as an argument good practice if i can't afford templates?
 
no, that doesn't make it "good practice"
 
2:42 PM
@ChemiCalChems In general no, but if you really need a pointer to anything, void* is exactly that.
 
@rubenvb yeah
 
@iksemyonov instead of std::unique_ptr<T>(new T()), yes
your regular variables of automatic storage duration should be your first choice still
 
@rubenvb Looks like exception safety is the key. I learned C++ with the Qt library and somehow missed the whole exception aspect of the language, so I don't include it in my reasoning, sadly.
 
nwp
Qt is terrible when it comes to proper C++.
5
 
@iksemyonov Also the unique_ptr constructor is explicit in its T* variation. That means you can't pass new something to a function accepting std::unique_ptr<something>, but std::make_unique solves that nicely.
 
2:47 PM
@nwp While I generally agree that it has been lacking modern C++ constructs and practices for a while, they are switching to C++11 and in fact encouraging STL and memory management etc. See some keynotes by Digians/KDE-ians on youtube for example.
 
nwp
That is nice. They have a long way to go.
 
They're just stuck with a lot of legacy from the time the C++ standard library sucked on some implementations they supported way back when.
And in retrospect, they made some bad decisions, but back then they were one of many good decisions.
So I really hope they'll be taking the ABI breaking changes seriously in Qt 6.
 
@nwp See modern signals-and-slots by Olivier Goffart for one. However, they have their own memory hierarchy for QObject's, and I'm not sure how it interacts and / or coexists with the new memory management in C++.
 
@iksemyonov I'm working on my own signal/slot implementation
I'm kind of proud of it.
It's probably not great in any way except me understanding it fully because I wrote it all.
 
@rubenvb Great! Though, to be technical: what do you dislike about the existing ones?
 
2:53 PM
@iksemyonov Bah, I challenged myself
I wanted a no-fluff alternative for Qt's signals and slots and a basic "signaling property" thing I could use.
And one weekend later, I had the basic implementation working.
 
@rubenvb Same thing as me writing this cute volume renderer for the CPU. Certain people share the joy :) While some others go like "Hey what's the point we got GPU's!"
 
Now I'm fighting the "call function with less arguments inside slot of more arguments" problem.
Well, I'm shooting for full-blown GUI framework.
One has to set goals I guess.
But this kind of insolence by a stupid popular compiler really kills the joy sometimes
 
You must have that list of 1, 2, 3, .., 10 parameter calling templates somewhere in the source, yes?
 
code design is the worst part of coding
 
@iksemyonov No variadic template arguments solve that problem for me, obviously.
 
2:59 PM
@rubenvb OK, I recall seeing that in Boost I think. Must have been an old implementation.
 
@iksemyonov Yes, that's the pre-C++11 hack to emulate such things.
I remember VS2010 going from maximum 5 to 10 "variadic arguments" for their tuple.
 
OK these two look like it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olSSGA_nD1Q byThiago Maciera - the technical one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sajBj_eiH10 by Marc Mutz
Of course those are long. But they indicate Digia are concerned IMO.
 
They had to re-engineer their compiler to handle the extra arguments
 
3:14 PM
@rubenvb that was pre-variadic as well?
 
@iksemyonov yes.
Twas a dark time.
 
@rubenvb My experience with variadics was trying to create a generic wrapper function for benchmarking that would work like this:
 
haha multiline code fail
You'll need two separate messages to make that work.
one with non-code, other is all-code.
 
void mySlowFunc(args) { /**/ }
int main() { bench_wrapper</*something here*/>(mySlowFunc(someArgs)); }
 
There ya go.
 
3:20 PM
ha, TY!
now, guess. that failed because it required about 8 or 6 versions of the wrapper to be written by hand. void, non-void return values, no arguments, 1 or more arguments.
 
Hmm. Currently I have 6 slot specializations: callable (free function or lambda or functor), member function, const member function, and each of these for the zero-argument case.
I'd love to get rid of the zero argument case, but then type deduction seems to fail all over.
 
See, you don't have to wrap anything, do you? While I need to return a value (pass-through) if there was one.
 
All of these return the callable's return value.
 
how do you generalize void and non-void return values?
 
There's no need?
 
3:24 PM
Uhm.. maybe I'm overthinking indeed.
 
let me conjure up some magic for ya
 
But in one case the wrapper has to return void, in the other case not..
 
do you guys know anything examples of c++ programs that accept user coded modules?
i guess the linux kernel is a valid example for c...
 
Modules? A.k.a dyn. loaded plugins?
 
yeah, pretty much
 
3:27 PM
Well, from my perspective, that would be KPart in KDE, if that qualifies of course.
 
should i use a jit compiler in the main program?
i'd like the plugins to also be written in c++
so they'd have to be compiled at some point
 
Well, AFAIU, a plugin is compiled beforehand and distributed as a binary file (a .dll / .so), and a header interface.
 
right, but how can i dyn load a so after start up?
 
Technically, it's the dlopen() call.
Then, an entry function is executed.
@ChemiCalChems I'd google for "writing a dlopen plugin for c++"
 
ok, thank you very much
 
3:32 PM
YW! That links to e.g. tldp.org/HOWTO/html_single/C++-dlopen and a bunch of Stack Overflow links, ofc. Just remember that it's platform dependent.
 
yeah, i'd have to write a different loading system for each platform, but that is much easier than it sounds, i hope
 
ok, then let's give it a read and let's start going
 
You need some explicit parameters, but those can be hidden in another layer if need be.
 
But as I understand it, all there is to to understand it is: a running process reads a binary file into its address space, in the same fashion as the actual executable is loaded.
@rubenvb TY a bunch! std::forward<T>() is there to avoid copying? Does it use move semantics internally?
 
3:34 PM
@iksemyonov No, it's to keep the rvalue/lvalue-ness of the parameters.
 
@rubenvb That's terra incognita for me yet. All those reference rules. Do you remember if C++ Primer covers that? Professional C++ seems not to, and I prefer books to articles when possible.
 
532
A: Advantages of using forward

GManNickGYou have to understand the forwarding problem. You can read the entire problem in detail, but I'll summarize. Basically, given the expression E(a, b, ... , c), we want the expression f(a, b, ... , c) to be equivalent. In C++03, this is impossible. There are many attempts, but they all fail in so...

 
this sounds legit, let's get coding
 
No idea. I prefer me messing around and asking questions on stackoverflow.
 
@rubenvb Some people look down at those employing the approach as unable to sit down to a book. And, there should probably be a balance between asking and finding out. TY for the link, that's a read!
 
3:38 PM
@iksemyonov Yeah, no point in asking everything. And I'm not going to lie, I read most of the stuff as well, but usually on the internet, not a book.
There are some very good blogs out there.
Guru of the Week, Flaming Dangerzone, etc...
 
@rubenvb Sure. Just.. I'm analog. Turn it off and turn on the small cozy lights, get some tea.. Paper smell.. (I'm 25, in case :))
 
Wow, learning C++ without writing code. Be careful, you might never learn that C++ compilers really suck ;)
 
I crashed GCC when I was 18, mate!
 
That reminds me, I still need to ICE MSVC2017
Seems they just emit random errrors instead of crashing now :(
 
Well, I'll be honest. NVCC sucks. It fails with C++11.
It also (used to) eat a lot of RAM and CPU time, until I realized it would target all the GPU architectures from G80 to these days by default. Switching off all arches but the one I have in the PC made building the project a breeze. (OpenCV 3.1 w/CUDA support)
 
3:45 PM
I reallly hate CUDA for being so popular.
It sucks on a conceptual level due to being proprietary and having bad tooling.
 
But i does the job, same as NVIDIA does the job?
 
Yet everyone jumped on the bandwagon, and now everyone needs 10k GPUs to do compute.
And OpenCL is right there, ready to be used.
Free.
And Open-ish
 
But the code is clumsier that with CUDA, and in benchmarks it's a controversy.
 
I find CUDA code extremely clumsy.
<<<>>>>
It's just the existing libaries implementing it that does it for most people
and the involvement of NVIDIA to push their platform, with agreeable results, sure.
 
I have a book where OpenCL setup looks like a page of code, CUDA being a few times shorter
 
3:49 PM
Comparing two frameworks on their setup code is quite a bad comparison, IMHO.
I'm not saying OpenCL is so great.
It's just better because anyone can implement it.
There's about 5,5 implementations.
NVIDIA counts as half.
AMD GPU/CPU, Intel GPU/CPU, pocl, and many others I'm currently forgetting
 
Well, the usage code looked shorter as well, though the indexing was prettier indeed.
@rubenvb Damn, that pocl group was hiring students in November. Headbang.
 
4:22 PM
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Microsoft Connect welcome page.
 
@iksemyonov You need a Connect account filled in correctly.
 
@rubenvb Suckage extended beyond compiler boundaries. TY for the hint, researching.
 
Haha don't if you don't want to.
 
Nono, it's perfectly fine with me. I'm getting at the way Microsoft love adding hurdles.
 
Am I crazy running five different compilers/platforms at the same time?
5
 
4:26 PM
I have set up a profile, yet the 404 persists.
 
@rubenvb Sounds perfectly normal to me. Are there people who don't?
 
@JerryCoffin Thanks for making me feel sane :P
 
@rubenvb Starred, SCNR. @JerryCoffin, Good evening Sir.
Oh no, it's morning there.
@rubenvb Still the same error.
 
@iksemyonov Hello. Yup--just about 0930...
 
@iksemyonov Well screw them for being fucktards then :D
 
4:29 PM
@JerryCoffin I had to correct myself before an inevitable joke would have arrived. Sadly, we lost the joke.
@rubenvb That's the basic idea I've been trying to get through, you see. Tards.
 
@iksemyonov You took the blue pill. There is no joke.
 
4:43 PM
@rightfold Odersky loves Python, apparently: Consider syntax with significant indentation
 
ok, i succesfully loaded my first plugin
@iksemyonov thanks very much to you, sir
 
@ChemiCalChems thanks for the kind words, I'm relatively new to the subject as well, I only know about the entrance point - dlopen(). You may want to research into the OOP aspect of the topic later. What you got so far is (probably a part of) the raw mechanics. Look for related stuff on the net, there are loads on info.
 
@iksemyonov yeah, i already loaded a whole class, it works very nicely
well, not a class, but an object
 
@rubenvb Yeah, nope. I have 3 C++ compilers, 2 platforms I target, a few different versions of rustc, JDK, a Nim compiler, and an AVR C compiler.
After a certain point in your programming career, you give up and accept the rule of your compiler overlords.
 
5:06 PM
@Aaron3468 What is the project about, once again? I have to confess: had to look up both Nim and AVR.
 
this is amazing, i'm loading the damn keylogger onto the main program
i love it
 
Nim is a kitchen sink language where safety is second to features. Things like closures, continuations, multiple returns, generics, etc. are all supported if possible. AVR is a microcontroller architecture. It lets you do projects like this one
 
 
1 hour later…
Xeo
6:17 PM
(that's a mini-pancake on top)
 
That's cute :3
 
user1804599
ew
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow what could possibly go wrong
 
6:58 PM
Open chat for the first time, and see Epica linked. Good start. lol
 
Could be worse :p
 
Well, I am a fan of them. So definitely not worse. :)
 
To be honest, it's the only album I listen to from time to time (like once every few months). I like the work on the vocals.
 
It's got a good flow and rhythm
Lately I keep going back to The Butterfly Effect's album Imago.
 
I personally like The Divine Conspiracy. Chasing the Dragon is their best song ever made IMO. Never heard a song do that before.
 
7:07 PM
I keep going back to Dur Dabla. Best band around.
Yesterday I was even at one of their concerts.
I was even allowed to be on stage.
Playing the recorder in the band helps.
 
lol
 
shameless plug
I mean... Sounds like an amazing band if they have a recorder-ist(?)
 
Let's no talk about plugs.
 
@Morwenn Youre ashamed of your plugs?
 
@Borgleader I considered buying some, but never did.
 
7:14 PM
@Morwenn It's alright, it's alright, we don't have to think about it. It's alright, it's alright, we don't have to talk about it.
 
dammit now I'm hungry
 
@jaggedSpire Good time to be hungry. Here at the center of the universe, it's just past noon.
 
@Aaron3468 Sorry, my ears are already taken by a Rammstein parody x)
 
Dur Dabla. Reminds me of Eluviette
 
7:16 PM
ooooh, looks like I've got both ingredients for corn tortillas
 
@TonyArnold No surprise. We both use traditional breton themes.
 
I love pretty much most things celtic.
 
7:29 PM
I live at the heart of the celtic lands.
Or at the end of the world. Your pick.
 
7:56 PM
gosh, i'm so happy
 
nwp
8:19 PM
must have been chemical chems
 
@nwp at last somebody makes a pun that uses the reason my name was created that way
double happy
 
Richard I'm not sure what you mean? There isn't any reference in the return label? — Daniel Tofte Schøn 52 secs ago
haha
 
Thanks Borgleader and Richard! :) — Daniel Tofte Schøn 12 secs ago
I basically said his title was terrible, and he thanked me.
 
maybe he took it as constructive criticism
 
8:29 PM
@iksemyonov i've also found a cross platform solution, libtltdl
it's a part of libtool, that basically provides a cross platform api for lib loading
looks good
 
by the way guys, not sure if I notified you properly, but I actually like Prey. It's fucking great. I thought Bethesda only published shitty Elder Scrolls games, but first Doom and now Prey? Maybe I should take them seriously
 
@ChemiCalChems Great! As I said, it's a well-known problem, so of course there is a range of solutions.
 
@iksemyonov yeah, it's pretty nice, didn't know it was as simple as this
 
And, great to see that perseverance. I think we last met some good 10 hours ago.
Wish I had that ability to sit down and concentrate (though in a good mood, I do).
 
meh, i've been off for some time
but yeah, i really want to get this going in a cross platform way
 
8:53 PM
@ChemiCalChems Note that the exact workings of dlsym and GetProcAddress and such is very undefined behaviour as far as the C and C++ standards go.
 
@rubenvb yeah, i do realise this
 
But everyone does it so it must work, right? :p
 
but i feel quite comfortable having an underlying lib that makes the system calls for me
 
I wonder what happened there stackoverflow.com/posts/44100990/revisions
@rubenvb unspecified. Get your language straight
 
now the thing is actually designing the whole thing and how it's gonna work
 
9:00 PM
@jaggedSpire Beautiful turd polish stackoverflow.com/posts/44101343/revisions
 
Too bad no one will see it
 
9:51 PM
So I have finished watching Terminator: Salvation.
It is not too bad.
 
nah, i found that one good
but the best one was 2, no doubt
 
@ChemiCalChems I like the first one best.
 
@fredoverflow idk, i feel like the first is too "future of the 80s" too dark and all, just like blade runner
 
I never watched Blade Runner :(
 
@fredoverflow I feared to go with garbage out in night after seeing that in theatre. I was so young. :)
 
9:54 PM
at least terminator 2 had much more day scenes
 
@fredoverflow OMG!!!
 
i haven't finished it, but the aesthetics are the same on all those films, dark and destroyed worlds
i don't quite like that
 
@ChemiCalChems What about Alien and Aliens?
Damn, the 1990 were awesome time.
Today you only get superhero movies.
 
i find terminator: genisys to be better than salvation, though
 
Mostly.
 
9:55 PM
@wilx oh, fuck those superhero shits
movies have no story any more
 
@ChemiCalChems Yup.
 
@fredoverflow I like it too, because of it being more like a horror movie than action movie. Also the atmosphere is just unforgettable.
 
it's just hi i'm a superhero, i get humilliated / whatever, and then i save the world
 
Though, I think either machines will me much more effective in clearing out all people than Skynet or no such thing can ever happen because the technologies not only do not exist but are basically impossible.
 
i can't wait for kung fury 2
but yeah, we can't code anything smarter than us, can we?
we can help it learn, but...
 
10:02 PM
@see in C at least, it seems to be undefined behaviour: stackoverflow.com/a/559671/256138
 
though wait, technically, you could give a program a romhack and make it evolve enough so that it produced perfect tas runs for any game you gave it, if you give it a goal and other basic info
that would be nice
 
Programs are smarter than us on a regular basis. My toaster knows the optimal current to induce thermal radiation in coils which then toast my bread perfectly.
 
@Aaron3468 a human had to code that
 
@see also C++11 5.2.10/6 explicitly says calling a function through a function pointer that has been cast to a different type of function pointer is undefined behaviour.
 
@Aaron3468 What is your actual occupation and interest, Sir? You seem to be enough of a hardware "geek" yet it's also compilers, languages, the Lounge.. I wonder if there's any science in the list excepting Computer Science of course.
@rubenvb You appear to be mistyping @sehe 's name.
 
10:11 PM
It's the casting back and forth between the originally defined type that is unspecified. Not exactly what dlsym and GetProcAddress are doing.
@sehe see above
Thanks. Damn smartphone auto correct.
 
@ChemiCalChems There's lots of AI that can outplay people in games of combinatorial reasoning. AI like AlphaGo are more intelligent than their programmers; it took a while for them to discover why it played one of the moves that won the game. The only advantage we have right now is that AI have to be trained specially and given a few hundred HPCs before they can outcompete us.
 
@Aaron3468 well, yeah
they are better at learning stuff, but not at creating new stuff
and that's really what humans do best
 
@rubenvb But it hasn't. The way dynamic loaders work is that they give you a pointer to the function, and presuming you get the pointer type declaration right, it DOES refer to a function of the correct type. It's hard to verify, but it's not hard to trust (by virtue of the thing working in all major OS-es)
 
@ChemiCalChems Evolutionary algorithms are now employed in some CAD programs to generate designs that outperform those of people, especially where aerodynamics are concerned
 
@Aaron3468 right, but these programs can't learn anything, they are specially programmed to do something, in this case, generate designs, and run them in a testbed created by humans, after all
 
10:15 PM
@rubenvb what I see is type punning through a void*. But to type pun from T* -> void* -> T* back again is not UB
 
@ChemiCalChems IIRC the space shuttle exhausts or whatever they are called where designed by genetic algorithm. Or so I remember hearing somewhere.
 
though one could argue the same for humans, we only test things in the testbed nature gave us...
 
@iksemyonov I'm an enthusiast and currently a student in University. I've been programming long enough to have a wide breadth of knowledge. Jack of all trades, master of none, though I'm specializing in Operational Research.
 
The fact that one "part" of the cycle is out of your view doesn't actually change the procedure.
 
dlsym() is "fun" to implement on archs where "data" and "code" have separate address spaces of different sizes
 
10:17 PM
As long as void* is a superdomain for fptr_t
 
Just got back from ACEN. End of two days of phone-only internet.
 
@ChemiCalChems The difference is semantics. AI outperform us in tasks which require precision. They need assistance to outperform in tasks requiring reasoning, research, and acquisition of new types of knowledge. Watson is probably the most advanced and recent example of a general AI. Not quite what could be called a sentient AI, or a non-organic lifeform, but definitely rivalling human levels of comprehension.
 
yeah, granted
 
Wish I'd known about The Lounge and stuck around all these years. A couple at least. It's so $adjective .. my English is faulting me. Like entertaining, but about learning. What's the word like?
 
addictive; educational
 
10:30 PM
stimulating
interesting works too
 
^
 
Educational maybe, but I feel educative would've fit better if there was such a word. I still comprehend English much, much better than speak or write it.
Probably books and movies are the remedy..
@Aaron3468 Whatever we call it, it expands one's (my) horizon quite a lot. Not only computer languages, in fact.
 
i have found over the years that one day this chat is more Lounge<C++> and another day it's more Lounge<Counter-terrorism> or Lounge<Politics>
and i really enjoy that variability in conversation themes
 
Can be just a geeky place the other day ^^
 
yeah, it's amazing
i wish i was here more often
 
10:40 PM
I find myself coming here for.. (shh don't tell anyone!) a dose of Jerry's humor. No, mean, srsly, I do.
 
sehe is humorous too. His name even rhymes with laughter
 
that's not how you pronounce laughter
/cue hehe
 
You know what really rhymes with laughter?
My bloody life.
 
11:06 PM
Slaughter does make your life bloody, I guess
 
@Xeo Have you seen these 3D posters? yesanime.com/productDetail.php?show=19245
Picked up a couple at ACEN. (not that one though) They're pretty neat.
 
Xeo
@Mysticial Huh, looks neat
is the effect the same as on the site?
 
isn't lenticular the same procédé as them "laminated" postcards?
 
@Xeo yeah
 
Xeo
how expensive?
 
11:13 PM
$12.50 at the con.
The quality is definitely a bit on the cheap side.
They had them last year too. But not Anime-flavored. Mostly game characters. This year there were two dealers selling Anime ones.
No point trying to take pictures of the ones I have since you have to be moving.
The build quality is cheap - you get what you pay for. But the detail is pretty awesome on some of them.
 
Xeo
take a video? :P
 
Can't really see the 3D in the video.
 
Cool, they have Danganronpa and a few others
 
I grabbed 4 of them. 2 from Log Horizon, Black Bullet, and GATE.
 
Some of them are definitely better than others. The more chibi the art is, the less effective the 3D is.
 
11:26 PM
The GATE one has the most detail.
Especially around Rory and the dragon next to her.
It's hard to see from the gif on line.
 
The ones you got are some of the best tbh. I'm unhappy they messed up the madoka one ;-; but at least Mami is good 3D. Fans that aren't me will appreciate that.
 
They had a really large Madoka one. Like 2 x 3ft. For sale, no frame included.
Was on the order of like $50.
The Madoka one doesn't have much in the way of 3D.
The wall scroll selection this year was complete shit.
 
@iksemyonov Jerry has no humor. Selfish jackass if you ask me.
 
The NGNL stuff ones came down in price a bit. I didn't get any since I had them all already.
And some overpriced KonoSuba ones - which I didn't get.
I'll wait till AMW.
Oh and all the KonoSuba figurines are expensive as fuck. Literally 2-3x mark up over everything else. There was a Megumin one I wanted, but it was something like $100. Only one dealer had it, and when I circled back around later, it was gone.
Speaking of Megumin, she was probably one of the most popular cosplays this year. They were literally fucking everywhere.
 
11:47 PM
Megumin is a relatable character .-.
Sounds like fun aside from the expensive merchandise though
 
This time I tried rooming with an old college friend. But that was literally 10 people in one hotel room. And they're all drunkards. I knew that already so I only came back to the room after 2am when they're either done drinking or passed out. So while I saved myself the one hour middle-of-the-night-potentially-dangerous-train-ride, the quality of my sleep was much lower. I'll need to think about it next year.
 
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