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1:00 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Well if dinosaurs count...
 
Today I expect the delivery of two books. One about Scala, the other about D :)
 
can't believe you'd even consider programming in D
 
sbi
@DeadMG He only considers reading a book. :)
 
you may as well just use C# and get the benefit of decent tools
true, I guess :P
 
@DeadMG who said he does? I have the Quran (polyglot edition), and the Bible (NT in Greek + Vulgata). I'm not practicing all that shit either :)
 
1:06 PM
true, but I doubt you order new religious texts
 
Xeo
Aren't programming books just like religious texts?
And with that, good morning o/
 
@RMartinhoFernandes i meant to post this with that. Also, I'm really looking for the frames from this #487 in there :)
 
@sehe No, it's a human skeleton.
 
@DeadMG True-ish. Though my latest acquisition in the field has been a Dutch translation of the Quran (that was supposedly a literary feat; I got stuck reading it so I cannot really vouch for it). It might not have been the best idea to try and read that in the train while commuting :)
 
@DeadMG D is native, C# is not.
 
1:11 PM
@FredOverflow D is immature and has no tools, C# isn't
besides, apply NGEN for a great good
 
@Xeo no, programming books are best on facts
 
Hint: Programming in D does not prohibit one from programming in other languages.
 
@DeadMG It has more tools than Widesey :) DigitalMarch had an IDE for it, not?
 
lol
@sehe True true, but since I haven't finished inventing i, that's not unreasonable
 
@FredOverflow from this I extrapolate that any programming language is actually in D
 
1:12 PM
@FredOverflow True. It's not so much about that, as to why you would ever want to in the first place
it's an orgasm-GC-inheritance-fest
 
@DeadMG It is fair to say that D seems further downstream in terms of evolution. Though the same argument could be made for it's case
 
@DeadMG curiosity
I want to at least read a book about D before saying that it sucks.
 
I'm happy to deduce that it sucks from facts publicly available on it's website
 
Also, I plan on getting two books about C#, for what it's worth.
 
@DeadMG Now that type of qualification is what I get when reading docs for Boost Meta State Machine - no holds barred, let's have it all- and ignore there isn't compiler support for the concepts
 
1:14 PM
The only reason D is notable is because it's called D
 
for example, it is impossible to create a SSO string in D
 
@DeadMG Do share your summary. I'm lazy
 
What's SSO?
 
small string optimization
 
Do you have a blog entry somewhere about your gripes with D?
 
1:15 PM
@FredOverflow C# in Depth and ...?
 
@DeadMG Short String Optimization? How's that impossible?
 
also embedded-end optimization for node-based containers
simple
in D you cannot create move constructors, you can only have binary moves
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Guessing: CLR via C#
 
@RMartinhoFernandes C# via CLR and C# in a nutshell.
 
and then when you have a pointer pointing into your own class, it is left pointing to garbage
you can't even turn it off and go back to C++03's copy orgasm
 
1:15 PM
@FredOverflow LOL I was right. A c++ programmer goes to town :)
 
Aren't strings immutable in D, anyway? (Which I find way more sane, btw.)
 
Sanity is not called for. This is the C++ room.
8
 
don't you think that the mutability or not of strings should be something you can decide for yourself?
instead of having the language enforce it on you?
just like they have that despicable Object bullshittery
 
No, immutability is the right choice ;)
 
.NET has immutable strings and SSO (interned strings), much like java's, only 10 years less sucky
 
1:17 PM
interned strings and SSO have nothing to do with each other
@FredOverflow Then I hope that the language authors never did or will make any choice that you ever disagree with; ever
because you know that you have no choice about following their bidding like a little lamb
 
@DeadMG Damn - I knew it when I cut that corner. Not per se, but I feel they are both optimizations and as such I associated them. Sorry
 
"We think inheritance is great, so suck our Object."
as if you're a fucking child who can't decide whether or not he needs a base class on his own
 
Dude, sometimes you're way too fundamental about programming languages.
 
@DeadMG D does explicitely not impose GC IIRC. Likewise, you can go about threading in tradtional ways, and you can interface with C++ code. I haven't actually tried it, but I have seen my share of presentations by A. A10u
 
All I want is to lay down, skim through a programming book, learn something new and mumble "Hmm, this is an interesting design choice!"
 
1:20 PM
And have some fun writing code.
 
@sehe You can't, because their Standard library can use it under the hood all they like.
even if you explicitly never use the GC, you can't stop it running and interrupting your code
 
@FredOverflow Print a few PDFs on ADA, Algol, Prolog, Haskell and OcamL :)
 
Will you people stop ruining my fun already? ;)
 
53 secs ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
And have some fun writing code.
Hey! I'm trying to help!
 
Algol? I thought all the good ideas were already used in other languages.
 
1:21 PM
@DeadMG There is a severly small margin of applications that are hurt by that. Anyways, if that kind of stuff matters, you'd be targeting a realtime OS, with explicit control on CPU affinity for kernel threads as well
 
If I can be bothered to download the compiler... just kidding, of course I'll write code :)
 
@Pubby Yeah. So? You can still lay down, and chuckle about them
 
@FredOverflow Don't tell anyone, I have a D compiler sitting on my hard drive.
Never took it out for a spin though.
 
@sehe It matters to me, because I want to control the memory used by those Standard components for my own purposes.
 
@DeadMG How does D's object class look like? equals and hashCode like in Java?
 
1:22 PM
@sehe Or make me cry when I realize all the bad ideas from it are still used today
 
@RMartinhoFernandes It's probably very outdated by now.
 
@FredOverflow apt-get install gdc, done
 
@FredOverflow and a ToString(), Ithink
 
@FredOverflow It's from a couple months ago.
 
ultimately, it's my program, and anything that isn't complete and total control is not acceptable
 
1:23 PM
Meh, I don't like having an Object.equals method, but that alone isn't gonna stop me from taking a deeper look :)
 
@DeadMG You should be writing a bootloader for every single program then. I think that might introduce some unnecessary complexities that are going to harm the other, real, application requirements
 
I have no intention of it
but I appreciate the ability to do so if I wish
and you know what?
being able to have mutable strings or swap out the allocator used is a trivial amount of flexibility to ask for
 
Oh wait, doesn't D differentiate between char[] (immutable reference semantics) and char[n] (mutable value semantics)?
Or did I only dream that?
 
@FredOverflow It has toString, toHash, comparison operator, equality operator and a static factory method that makes objects from a string with their type name.
Oh, and I think there's a monitor in there too.
 
Both comparison and equals? How does the comparison look like?
 
1:29 PM
It's like spaceship.
 
Ah, and it returns negative, 0 or positive?
 
So why do we still need equals?
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow The same reason we have std::string::operator== and std::string::compare? It reads nicer.
 
1:32 PM
But equals doesn't read nicer.
 
@Xeo No, the comparison operator is like <, <=, >= and > in the same package.
And the equality operator is like == and !=.
 
What's the signature of the spaceship?
 
You write a specially named function, and get sets of overloaded operators in return.
@FredOverflow int opCmp(Object)
 
Object? Meh.
 
It's in Object.
 
1:33 PM
@FredOverflow I almost said that an 'equals' method might work better to chain boost bind calls. But boost bind supports operators well.
 
Is there something like Boost for D? Doost? :)
 
@FredOverflow Turbo?
 
I think it looks nicer to go if(x.equals(y)) rather then if(x.compare(y) == 0)
 
@StackedCrooked Are you asking or telling?
 
@FredOverflow It would be Coost, no?
 
1:34 PM
Guessing.
 
@thecoshman But x == y looks even nicer!
 
Since B comes before C, and C comes before D.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Coost, or any other word starting with the letter C would be fine.
Creep
Oh, no, that's slow.
 
@FredOverflow it does yes, but some times you need to differentiate from are the exact same and a effectively the same
 
1:35 PM
@thecoshman What?
@RMartinhoFernandes Do structs inherit from Object as well?
 
@thecoshman Reference equality is the rare case. Make it the hard to type one.
@FredOverflow No, structs are really just like C's structs: packages of data.
 
ie, you might want to be able to no if to separate objects have the same value or if to objects are actually the same object
 
But structs have "move semantics" (postblit constructors), right?
 
oh yeah
no value type inheritance
 
They can have member functions, but they can't be fancy.
 
1:37 PM
what the fuck D
 
but I guess this comes from no pointer languages
 
@FredOverflow Only copy semantics.
 
@thecoshman In C# there is a special function to test reference equality: object.ReferenceEquals.
It's silly to make the rare case the easier to type.
 
I agree.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes that it is
 
1:38 PM
@DeadMG When are you gonna complain about single inheritance only in D? ;)
 
@FredOverflow Postblit is for special copy semantics.
 
No wait, wrong.
 
@FredOverflow If it supports mixins then I'm fine with single inheritance.
 
Move semantics are done explicitly only with specific methods.
 
Right. What methods?
 
1:39 PM
Move methods.
 
For example, some ranges have a moveFront method.
 
13
Q: Does D have something akin to C++0x's move semantics?

FredOverflowA problem of "value types" with external resources (like std::vector<T> or std::string) is that copying them tends to be quite expensive, and copies are created implicitly in various contexts, so this tends to be a performance concern. C++0x's answer to this problem is move semantics, which...

 
The top answers focus too much on the "move semantics as an optimization" aspect I think.
Move semantics are more than that.
 
and optimization is important
 
But that kind of optimization is not that important in D, because most types have reference semantics.
 
1:43 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes So you mean I cannot define "move only" types in D?
 
@FredOverflow Not sure about that.
 
Couldn't you just hide the postblit constructor to define move only types?
 
Postblit is only for structs.
 
Yes, I know. So if I hide the postblit constructor, I have a move only type, right?
 
Maybe. Like I said, I never took a compiler for a spin :)
 
1:45 PM
I think that's only in so much as you had a move-only type in C++03
 
But I do know that some parts of the APIs have methods designed solely for the purpose of moving: d-programming-language.org/phobos/std_range.html#moveFront
 
@DeadMG No. If you hide the copy constructor in C++03, you cannot return by value anymore.
 
that's even worse, that D just assumes that blitting moves all types
 
Only structs are blitted.
 
yeah, classes are enforced-reference bullshit
not an improvement
 
1:49 PM
They don't need to be moved out of methods.
 
I can already see the day when WideC is released. DeadMG is going to declare everyone insane who doesn't use it :)
 
the place where I allocate a type and how I choose to access it is the choice of the user
not the choice of the author
 
@FredOverflow Glad he's not a psychiatrist.
 
So boost::noncopyable is evil as well? :)
 
no, why would it be?
nothing wrong with non-copyable types
 
1:51 PM
Because you cannot put boost::noncopyables into a vector, for example.
 
you can in C++11
and more importantly, that would be a fact of vector, and if in C++03 you rolled your own linked list, you could always put non-copyable items into that, for example
 
Was boost::noncopyable adapted for C++11?
 
Xeo
no
I wonder if there'd ever be a reason for a class to be copyable, but not movable. Or neither. Is there actually ever a reason for a class not to be movable?
 
@Xeo Mutexes.
 
You wouldn't move a mutex!
And crap in its helmet.
 
Xeo
1:57 PM
Hm, so if you don't want to be able to transfer state
 
German Wikipedia says that D was released in 2007?!?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Anyway, why should a mutex never be movable?
 
@StackedCrooked Movable.
 
Because other threads need to find it in the same place.
If you move it, you have to tell everyone about it.
 
1:59 PM
@FredOverflow Yep
 
@Fred: a quick test shows that you can make postblits private.
It also shows that it still runs.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Are you talking about C++ move semantics?
 
@StackedCrooked Yes.
 
@DeadMG I'm pretty sure I dabbled with D before 2007. Were those all alphas?
 
must have been
 
2:00 PM
@FredOverflow It's v2.
First release was in 1999.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Boost mutex has a pointer to a posix mutex (on a posix system). Moving the object doesn't change the inner pointer. I don't see the problem.
 
@StackedCrooked Er, yes it does!
I bet it makes it null.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes You mean it invalidates the original copy?
 
mutex m = make_a_mutex(); // global so everyone can have it.
{ // thread 1
    mutex evil = std::move(m); // steals the pointer to the POSIX mutex
}
{ // thread 2
    lock on(m); // oops, not the same anymore!
}
 
that's not really a mutex then
that's just shared_ptr<mutex>
 
2:02 PM
@StackedCrooked That's what move semantics does after all.
 
@FredOverflow yes and that's how I understand it. I just don't see why mutexes shouldn't have move semantics. So I was double-checking if we were talking about the same topic.
 
@StackedCrooked I updated my example (which was accidentally posted thanks to forgetting to press Shift ):.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes That will be problematic for any global object, not mutexes in particular.
 
Moving from a mutex is only dangerous if you explicitly request it, and then it's really your own fault when you shouldn't have moved but did.
 
2:05 PM
Mutex move semantics may be useful if you want to have a create_mutex(options) function that returns a mutex.
 
There's a bug in that code.
I can't even write buggy code without bugs.
 
Wanna hear a joke? Thread-local mutexes!
@RMartinhoFernandes Then what can you write?
 
Ah, now I remember the whole story.
 
How do you obtain a copy of a polymorphic object if all you have is a pointer to its base class?
 
@StackedCrooked Mutexes are not movable because it seems people might want to write mutexes that depend on their own address.
 
2:09 PM
@StackedCrooked ooooh fancy
 
@StackedCrooked Call a clone method?
 
@FredOverflow assuming it has one
 
It's the crazy platform thing kicking in.
If you want to return mutexes out of functions make smart pointers of them.
 
@FredOverflow I know that's an option. However, I then I thought that I can implement clone in terms of the copy constructor. And then I realized my silly mistake.
 
Or make unique_locks out of the mutex.
int pthread_mutex_init (pthread_mutex_t * mutex , pthread_mutexattr_t * attr );
pthreads uses the mutex address to identify it.
int pthread_mutex_lock (pthread_mutex_t * mutex );
 
2:14 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes You can't deduce that from the function signature.
 
@StackedCrooked But it is :)
You can't copy pthreads mutexes.
I guess that's why boost stores a pointer. But the standard library uses the "Don't pay for what you don't use" thing. So you won't need to use dynamic allocation if you don't want.
> The result of referring to copies of mutex in calls to pthread_mutex_lock(), pthread_mutex_trylock(), pthread_mutex_unlock(), and pthread_mutex_destroy() is undefined.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes This is really weird.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked I think this should work:
    template<typename Derived>
    class clonable {
    public:
      virtual smart_ptr<Derived> clone() const
      {
        return smart_ptr<Derived>(new Derived(*static_cast<const Derived*>(this));
      }
    };

    class my_class : public some_base, clonable<my_class> {
      // ...
    };
 
@StackedCrooked I don't make the rules.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes That's like if HWND wouldn't be copyable on Windows.
 
2:18 PM
Like I said, it uses the mutex address to identify it.
Don't ask me why.
It might be crazy, but pthreads is important enough for this.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes @StackedCrooked related:
9
Q: Move constructor for std::mutex

JohnBMany classes in the c++ standard library now have move constructors, for example - thread::thread(thread&& t) But it appears that std::mutex does not. I understand that they can't be copied, but it seems to make sense to be able to return one from a "make_mutex" function for example. (...

 
@RMartinhoFernandes Anyway, that's interesting but doesn't really imply that a mutex class should never implement move semantics.
 
@StackedCrooked The only way to do so is with dynamic allocation always. And "you don't pay for what you don't use".
 
@StackedCrooked The difference is that HWND is a HANDLE. A handle does not equal the object. Pthreads mutex structures are the actual object and they become meaningless if they're not shared
 
If you want to move mutexes, you have the tools in the standard library: unique_lock.
Even unique_ptr.
 
2:21 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes I agree that you'd be paying an extra cost in order to make the move semantics possible. So I agree that's a drawback. But I don't think it's inherently wrong.
 
@StackedCrooked You're actually complaining that the OS/threading library didn't design to use Handles. Tough luck
 
@StackedCrooked That's how C++ rolls.
 
@sehe I'm not complaining. I'm saying that it is strange IMO. Sorry if I seem like a nag to you.
 
You are not losing anything because you can still have move semantics.
unique_lock: implements movable mutex ownership wrapper
 
@StackedCrooked True. But... given the fact that POSIX threads do not support HANDLE semantics, is good enough reason to say that it would be inherently wrong to assume so in the C++ standard library. You'd always have to pay for the additional abstraction layer. And that itself would be quite constly to make... threadsafe. Zing
 
2:23 PM
@sbi I think you need public inheritance for the clonable as well.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes There. The crux in all it's glory. Don't moan about system API's. Adapt to them.
 
@sehe Yes, but don't adapt them if they are already adapted!
:)
 
Errr "adapt _to_ them" != "adapt them" !
:)
 
@sehe I'm only opposing the idea that mutexes should never be movable.
 
2:24 PM
Movable.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked Of course I saw this the very moment the edit grace period expired...
 
@sbi That's how it goes :)
I will adapt!
Crap now I have the melody of I will survive in my head.
@RMartinhoFernandes Phew, just noticed it and was able to edit it during the last 4 seconds of editability.
 
@StackedCrooked Means I should remind you of the words?
 
@Potatoswatter No, thank you :)
 
Never gonna give you up...
Or something.
 
sbi
2:28 PM
@StackedCrooked That reminds me of Vonnegut.
 
-8
Q: C++ code to convert jpg image to tiff

user1134467I need urgent help. Can anyone provide me C++ code that can covert jpeg image to tiff. I shall be very thankful Please its very urgent Thanx

 
@sbi Don't know much about him.
 
But it's urgent!
 
@StackedCrooked Well. The point is moot. Mutexes are NEVER movable. Period. Like, it is technically impossible to have that. HANDLES obviously can be movable, since they trivially copyable.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked "So it goes."
 
2:31 PM
@StackedCrooked: in fact what you are seeing is that WIN32 provides kernel-level synchronization primitives, whereas phtreads is a userspace implementation (IIRC)
 
Win32 also provides kernel-level abomination primitives.
> Recall the parable of John Doe the Microsoft Programmer who implemented the process suspend counts in Windows. These counts count down, but not up, so they’re half-semaphore, and half-condition-variable.
 
Since pthreads is in userspace, you'll have to deal with the guts. And yes it makes enormous sense that the C++11 standard accomodates the greates common divisor of threading APIs. I.e.: if API's can have unmovable/uncopyable implementations, then it would be a major fuck-up to require movability in the standard.
 
The books have arrived just now :)
 
Of course you can move a mutex. Just obtain a mutex lock to get permission, then create a new mutex with the same locking state as the old one!
 
0
Q: The "Named Constructor Idiom" seems to contradict the rule that a static method cannot access a non-static member function. Any explanation?

user1042389According to this site the static methods static Point rectangular(float x, float y); static Point polar(float radius, float angle); invoke the private constructor Point (a non-static method) as reproduced below : #include <cmath> // To get std::sin() and std::cos() c...

 
2:34 PM
@Potatoswatter Precisely what I said! see here:
 
What's the question?
 
12 mins ago, by sehe
@StackedCrooked True. But... given the fact that POSIX threads do not support HANDLE semantics, is good enough reason to say that it would be inherently wrong to assume so in the C++ standard library. You'd always have to pay for the additional abstraction layer. And that itself would be quite constly to make... threadsafe. Zing
See... "Zing"!
 
LOL, I don't read, just shoot my mouth off all the time :)
 
Hey that sounds suspiciously like the code of conduct in the C++ Lounge. I love that
 
topic change topic change!
 
2:38 PM
nah that would is suck
*stuck ?!?!?
 
Woah. Who set that topic?
I have a nagging feeling it was me.
 
lol
 
Creepy
@RMartinhoFernandes win32 kernel is a primitive abomination?
 
yesterday, by Alf P. Steinbach
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Sudden out of power of computer and it is stuck. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq]
HA!
Not me.
 
sock puppets...
hehehe
 
2:42 PM
suck puppets.
 
stuck muppets
fuck tuplets
muck trumpets
mush dumbbells
(ok I'll stop)
lush bubbles
(really)
 
"fuck tuplets"?
 
¬_¬ this is a joke right?

preDelete - takes object
postDelete - takes object
postCreate - takes object
preCreate - takes a string that can be used to get the same object?

<cries>
 
Where's that from?
 
work code
 
2:46 PM
cup kept sups (story of my work mug)
 
> And why would you want that? I hate final in Java. – Niklas Baumstark 1 min ago
 
@RMartinhoFernandes amen!
 
What do you guys think of final?
I like it.
 
I can see no good reason for it
 
@thecoshman Designing classes that behave properly with inheritance?
 
2:47 PM
the final keyword in Java is like putting bars on one of the windows of your house
@RMartinhoFernandes how so?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I do, partly. I do for the notion of inner classes sharing stuff with the outer classes. I don't really like it in the manner that C# has sealed, although I must admit that it allows for a certain robustness in the BCL
 
@thecoshman You need to add proCreate: copies object
 
@thecoshman So you can maintain your invariants without risk that subtypes will break them.
 
@Potatoswatter more like a batch-wise clone (cf. rabbits)
 
@sehe Oh, the BCL abuses it sometimes.
 
2:48 PM
And, recreate
 
@RMartinhoFernandes is that why more or less EVERY object is declared final?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I know all about that. But luckily, there is Mono, which is Open Source
 
@thecoshman What can I say, it's hard to design for inheritance.
 
I think the point about inner/outer classes relating is a bit subtler though. I wonder when Java will have something (working) that comes close to a closure
 
And the fact is, unfinaling is not a breaking change, but finaling is.
 
2:50 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes why do local variables inside a function need to be final?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes That is a nice observation. It had never struck me as relevant before today
 
If you make it final you can change your mind. If you don't you can't ever change your mind.
 
@thecoshman Optimization hints?
C++ has it! constexpr and const
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Good point. You're making me wonder if perhaps the whole idea of inheritance was wrong to begin with.
3
 
@thecoshman Oh, that's not the kind of final I was thinking. That's more like const.
 
2:51 PM
@sehe C++ const != java Final
by "need" to be final, I mean every one seems to insist on making them final
 
@sbi "And that's the rest of the story."
 
@thecoshman I helps the compiler help you.
If you mistakenly assign to it, you'll know it.
 
@thecoshman I think they need to be final if you want to be able to capture them in a inner class callback.
 
sbi
@Xaade When Vonnegut died, someone in the Pratchett newsgroup posted "So it goes."
 
And for inner classes, the reason is simply that Java can't handle closures.
 
2:53 PM
@thecoshman There is either mutable or immutable. Mutable during initialization is immutable IMO.
 
@Xaade Java's final is only "no-reassignment".
 
If at any other point (other than initialization) it is mutable..... it always was mutable.
 
Kinda like a C++ reference.
You can still mutate inal objects.
 
@thecoshman huh. Do you know java? final in java has both the meaning of sealed in CLR (C#) and in readonly in C#
 
@RMartinhoFernandes It it's like a T * const?
 
2:55 PM
@StackedCrooked Given that it's nullable, yeah that's more like it.
 
Yeah, it is not the same as const/const expr, @RMartinhoFernandes is more accurate. Nevertheless, my answer answered the question
5 mins ago, by thecoshman
@RMartinhoFernandes why do local variables inside a function need to be final?
 
@sehe AFAIK a final variable can still be mutated. Well, strictly speaking the the reference is constant but what it refers to is mutable
 
Compiler optimization hint, and program correctness (guarding invariants; explicit/verbose intent)
 
@sbi I was comparing to another radio host, that whenever introducing elements of a story that was neglected (most often on purpose from opinion of the host), he would end his stories with "And that's the rest of the story". A nod to the website you linked, which contains more than the intended reference.
 
@thecoshman I assume you were writing that while I wrote my other three responses explaining that I agree.
 
2:56 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes I just noticed the last question I answered is yours. Does my code solve your problem? I think you just need to add an intermediate namespace under query with a using namespace std; directive inside.
 
sbi
@Xaade Ah. I didn't read the article at all. I only googled for a reference for the "So it goes" phrase and posted that link. :-{
 
@Potatoswatter Oh, I hadn't noticed that.
 
@sbi It was a good link. Lots of good stuff in there. Interesting the concept of metafiction. I think the dark tower had that, when they ran into the author of their own story in another dimension and told him to keep writing, so they know what to do.
Or when the narrator is a part of the story.
 
sbi
@Xaade When you like literature about literature you should read Jasper Fforde's Thursday Next series (which I already advertised this morning). It's great.
 

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