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7:00 PM
@eazimmerman Since NASA has been gutted, we now need to have freelancers work for free and make code for us. We've created the website to allow the community an opportunity to give us stuff because we're awesome. Please note, this is not an effort to elect new hires.
 
Comeau does not have noexcept, nor the new using syntax. Pff
@sehe my code or the fact that I have to register?
 
Comeau hasn't been updated in about 5 years.
There is no registration, they're selling you a download.
Get ICC (Intel C Compiler) for the new version of the frontend that Comeau used.
 
@rubenvb the latter
 
@sehe Correct answer. Otherwise, I'd have had to shoot you.
is there any way to check if a template has been declared?
 
@eazimmerman Link for NASA Official (mailto:nicholas...@nasa.gov) Link for Website Curator (http://[domain]/sean...@nasa.gov)
 
7:07 PM
as in, if initializer_list has been declared already, don't do it again.
hmm, nvm. It'll still fail if the thing is redeclared after my declaration. tss
 
@DeadMG I've just realized that not only is it pointless, it's impossible to make a file-backed allocator(like I planned), as the internals would "move" in virtual memory. pointer classes fix that mostly, but not if the user gets the address of a member of an object. Guess we have to leave it to the OS.
 
well, that is why virtual memory was invented, basically
 
@DeadMG I thought virtual memory was invented for security/stability reasons, and then paging came later
@DeadMG wikipedia agrees with you
 
virtual memory and paging are one system, you can't have one without the other
 
crap, why is initializer_list so tied into the compiler...
 
7:15 PM
Why not?
 
they could've made it a keyword template
 
@rubenvb Sounds like you answered your own question there :)
 
A what? And what would that change?
 
@CatPlusPlus there's be no header <initialize_list> necessary.
 
@angryInsomniac I think I heard CatPlusPlus mention writing one in factor on a napkin last week?
 
7:17 PM
but heck. The whole "freestanding environment" in the Standard isn't freestanding at all.
The cake is a lie.
 
@CatPlusPlus @rubenvb 's impression of initializer_list.
@rubenvb pie is better anyway.
 
@DeadMG sure you can. virtual memory merely makes all memory accesses look the same no matter the type of memory. paging loads and unloads primary storage to backup storage. The first computers with virtual memory had "segmentation" rather than paging.
 
@sehe I wrote Gray code generator, not a Huffman encoder.
 
@rubenvb If that is the case, than your lawyer should be advising you, in your own interest, to refrain from further use of pastebin
 
@Xaade It seems the language C++ doesn't cater pie.
it seems the language C++ does not exist.
it is always tied to a library implementation
 
7:19 PM
@CatPlusPlus See, I remember it was something shady, archaic. But it was in factor, not?
 
no, no
paging is splitting up the address space into 4kb pages
 
@sehe Yeah.
 
the fact that those pages can be backed to the hard drive and decommitted from RAM is just one benefit
 
@DeadMG wikipedia: "In computer operating systems, paging is one of the memory-management schemes by which a computer can store and retrieve data from secondary storage for use in main memory. "
 
you're using wikipedia as a technical reference? get out
 
7:21 PM
@DeadMG so far you have no reference at all.
 
hey
I passed several university modules on this subject
I am a reference
2
 
lol
 
the fact that pages can be backed to the hard drive is but one of the many advantages of paging
 
Huh, I don't see anything forbidding the a user to specialize std::initializer_list. Is that a defect?
 
@DeadMG As I read more of the article, and compare with segmentation, you are correct. Again.
 
7:23 PM
Is there a language that sucks at most as much as C++, is completely independent from a library implementation for all of it's language features, and have an existing compiler?
 
@Potatoswatter I think unless otherwise specified, users cannot specialize anything in the standard library
@rubenvb C
 
@rubenvb Got all but the "existing compiler" part
@MooingDuck C sucks massively more than C++
 
@MooingDuck C doesn't have templates. Get out.
 
@DeadMG I read that backwards
 
@MooingDuck That's overloading. Specialization is perfectly legal for many Standard functions and classes
 
7:24 PM
@DeadMG: would your WideC work for me?
 
@MooingDuck You can specialize any standard template on a user-defined type.
 
it would
if I had an implementation
 
@rubenvb big time. Allthough it doesn't do template aliasing nor initializer lists. Yet.
 
@DeadMG ah, I thought you already had it, and were working on the library?
 
no
 
7:25 PM
goddammit. the world sucks.
 
@rubenvb your world.
 
Eliminating the standard library by integrating it into the initial state of the parser is back asswards.
 
why can't humanity create good, useful things?
@Potatoswatter I never said that.
 
@rubenvb because you haven't been around long enough yet
 
@rubenvb bureaucrats.
 
7:26 PM
Definitely better to have language features which depend on the library files being present.
 
@DeadMG The term paging does not imply backing up of pages, it implies paging the memory.....
 
what prevents initializer_list from being a compiler feature only? It is already tightly tied to it.
 
that's what I said
 
I would expect a more complex term, like page-swapping
 
@Xaade thats what he said. I was the one who thought otherwise
 
7:27 PM
that's what it's called
swapping
and a "swap file"
 
@rubenvb Because implementing in the library is better.
 
@DeadMG I don't think a swap file is necessary is it? Doesn't Windows do without?
 
@Potatoswatter please clarify. I don't see the advantage.
 
no, Windows has a swap file the size of physical RAM on avarage
 
You only want it to be different because this project makes no sense.
 
7:28 PM
@rubenvb Library code can be swapped out and maintained much easier than compiler code.
 
@Potatoswatter I'd have preferred it to be a language feature not in the library
 
@MooingDuck My sarcasm was lost....
 
@DeadMG well, if the compiler code changes, the library code has to change equally so. You can't have initializer_list change without the compiler to match those changes...
 
of course you could
if tomorrow you decided you would rather have ranges, it would be much easier to just add a new function
 
@DeadMG that and it simplifies the language, so the language can be atomic, but the library be verbose. Which makes parsing code easier.
 
7:30 PM
The C++ core language defines no class types whatsoever. They are all in the library. You want magical class types complete with member names to pop out of nowhere.
 
@DeadMG in the context of std::initializer_list? It can't be changed, because the compiler depends on the declaration.
 
@Potatoswatter I never said initializer_list needed to be a class type.
It's largely compiler magic anyways.
 
If it weren't, it would be very different from the feature that exists. It would probably have a different name, too.
What about std::type_info? Should that be a non-class as well?
 
@MooingDuck It might do, and it might not do
 
@rubenvb Any technology is indistinguishable from sufficiently advanced magic.
 
7:33 PM
@Xaade lol stop reading me literally. I'm trying to be serious here.
 
@Xaade swap that…
 
the compiler might say
instead of f({a, b, c}) we compile T arr[] = {a, b, c}; f(std::initializer_list(arr));
but std::initializer_list could be and do anything
 
@Potatoswatter These days, I find magic to be less mysterious than technology. I think the swapped version is better.
 
@Potatoswatter in view of the rest of the library, no. But in essence, every type_traits struct is just a one-to-one mapping of compiler intrinsics.
 
0
Q: Why is it illegal to take the address of a temporary?

Lightness Races in OrbitAccording to " How to get around the warning "rvalue used as lvalue"? ", Visual Studio will merely warn on code such as this: int bar() { return 3; } void foo(int* ptr) { } int main() { foo(&bar()); } In C++ it is not allowed to take the address of a temporary (or, at le...

 
7:35 PM
@DeadMG but that's an implementation detail, that doesn't affect the usage, no?
 
sure
but what I'm saying is that the compiler support could be very simple and allow the library to do whatever the fuck it wants
 
@DeadMG makes sense.
 
in my example support, the compiler wouldn't have to be changed whatever std::initializer_list is
 
hmm, ok.
nested initializers would be equally simple in that case I guess.
 
or, hell, you could throw an exception for fun
 
7:44 PM
I've never figured out why OS's use scratch files. It seems like they could use any/all unused HD space. Why are they locked into files? Is it some limitation of the hard-drive's ABI?
 
Can I ask a language shopping question on SO? With very specific requirements?
@MooingDuck To reduce seek times?
 
I'm not sure if they're on-topic
 
@rubenvb you can try, sure. I think it'd be fine, but I'm pretty sure some others wouldn't :)
it'll likely end up moved to programmers.se, if I had to guess
 
worst that can happen is it gets downvoted a couple times and then closed or moved
 
@rubenvb I can think of no counterargument.
 
7:47 PM
I sometimes think that the worst trait programmers have is this urge to categorize everything. "No, that question can't be here, even though it's something programmers can answer, and this site has the most programmers reading it. It has to go in that box over there"
"fewer people will see it, sure, but I'll get a warm and fuzzy feeling inside, knowing that everything is in its proper place
 
I prefer to only box things where it reduces the effectivenss
like, the chat only has a limited throughput
 
can one compile C#?
to native code calling only system libraries?
 
@rubenvb Theoretically. I know there's native Java compilers, I don't see why not C#.
 
Just applied for a WebStorm Open Source Project License. I wonder if I'll get it.
 
wtf is webstorm?
 
7:57 PM
It's a JavaScript IDE. I use it for developing a Google Chrome extension.
 
in retrospect, any conforming compiler could ignore every #include <initializer_list> and insert its own internal representation, completely independent of the fact if that header is there or not.
 
It's pretty good at analyzing and finding errors in my JavaScript code.
 
@rubenvb I think the standard was carefully written such that the standard library can be entirely in the compiler itself, and not in files. Though I know of no compiler that does so.
I wish C++ had a better separation of language and library.
 
@MooingDuck Amen. That's the point I was making all night long!
 
someone other than me had a point? wtf is this heresy
 
8:02 PM
@DeadMG: you should start a religion
try Sweden. I hear they're very easy-going in that department
 
philosophically speaking, it's interesting that you're considered "easy-going" if you allow people to believe that it's right to copy mp3's, but if you believe in an invisible omnipotent, omniscient and deeply self-contradictory being, no one even bothers to mention it
 
it is my hope that eventually, faith will be recognized as a mental disability
something to be cured
 
heh. Faith is something people not strong enough from within themselves grasp at to get on with their lives.
 
I don't think it has much to do with strength. Just ignorance and resistance to change
people tend to follow in their parents footsteps much more than they care to admit
if they told you there was a god, you're likely to cling to that
 
@jalf well, I was raised half catholic, meaning my parent's parents were catholic and it seeped through a bit. I even went to a catholic school. I never saw the point of the religion thoush.
 
8:11 PM
hence the problem
you need to protect children from being indoctrinated in such things by their parents
which is obviously not going to be a popular thing
but I think that it's increasingly necessary
the trappings of our society mean that people who are unfit to have or care for their children just keep going instead of dying out
there was an example on our news recently about a crack addict who had every child, all seven of them, taken away at birth by social services
 
There's nothing against philosophy and everyone's opinion. The problem is that in order to form such an opinion, a lot of decent education is needed in order to form that opinion, and the will to respect other's differing opinions.
there:
0
Q: Looking for a compiled language with strict requirements

rubenvbSince most experienced programmers agree that their language has serious defects in sometimes the most basic topics. The strong points I'm looking for are: Performance (do not discuss my metafors, these are examples only): I'm talking C/C++/Fortran speeds, not Go/Java/Python. Genericity: templ...

 
if you think I missed something, let me know.
D doesn't have multiple inheritance does it?
 
no
 
then why the f* did someone suggest it
 
8:22 PM
because he's only ever worked in languages with "interfaces", like C#, and doesn't know what you mean by MI?
 
lol
hmm didn't mention it in the question
oh, wait, now I see I did.
or at least now do
Wow, Go has a GCC front-end, so that is as fast as C++
w...t...f
 
I liked the lisp recommendation
Did you try Ruby? :D
 
@MooingDuck it's interpreted
oh, I forgot strongly typed
 
@rubenvb It's the slowest lanugage I know of.
 
ah lol
 
8:28 PM
Actually, shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64/… says Perl is slowest. Followed by Python, PHP, then Ruby.
 
Anyone here know Eiffel?
 
Xeo
0
Q: Unresolved External Symbol - Only in Release mode

NobodyNothingI'm using Visual C++ 6, and my application builds and runs fine in debug mode, but I get these two Unresolved External Symbol errors when trying to build in Release mode: OverUnderReportDoc.obj : error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol "public: virtual int __thiscall COverUnderReportDoc::G...

> I'm using Visual C++ 6
 
> The ⎋ key in any tool window moves the focus to the editor.
 
Xeo
Ouch, I don't envy people who have to stick to old compilers, really.
 
Anyone knows what the ⎋ key is on Mac?
 
8:30 PM
U238B, I'm making progress
that symbol?
 
I don't have that key on my keyboard
 
@rubenvb me neither :(
 
@rubenvb Neither do I.
 
@StackedCrooked Obviously I have no idea what you were talking about
 
@MooingDuck As I was opening the WebStorm IDE the "Tip of the day"-window appeared with the message: "The ⎋ key in any tool window moves the focus to the editor.".
 
8:35 PM
hmm Objective-C is horrible
actually, I'd think LLVM makes writing a compiler a bit easier, no?
 
Have you even seen Objective-C++ code? It's quite a spectacular mix.
 
@rubenvb It would do if they included a fucking linker.
 
@DeadMG lol, as I said, they're working on it. And in theory you can use llvm-ld/llvm-link is you run the bitcode directly.
 
In Objective-C++ you can mix Objective-C and C++ inline like:
[NSString stringWithUTF8String:std::string("Hello").c_str()];
Yuck as much as you want. It's quite fancy.
 
I can't see my yucks
stupid chat
 
8:45 PM
@rubenvb That doesn't change thefact that your statement would be more accurately expressed as "LLVM could make writing a compiler much easier."
 
@Xeo very nice!
 
ok, once again, you always have a point.
 
If you need to add a dynamic-layer on top of a C++ program then Objective-C++ is a nice option because it's backwards compatible with C++.
 
My first downvote on the question, woohoo!
 
I have read 50 pages of the D book so far, and I like it.
Still undecided on the fact that D has built-in hashmap support. Is that good or bad?
 
8:56 PM
bad
 
Good.
 
how do you pass a hash map as a template parameter if it's a language feature and not a type?
 
Unless they don't have sane literals for that, then it doesn't make a difference, really.
 
also, how do you swap out the implementation for one that's more appropriate for your performance needs, e.g. dense/sparse?
 
That one implementation is built-in doesn't stop you from using another.
Or it being a type.
 
8:59 PM
so what the hell is the point of building it in if library implementations are just as good?
I didn't mean that
 
It can be syntactic sugar for library implementation.
 
I meant as a template template (equivalent)
 
@Xeo Given the rate the 1 - 1000 question is going. I'd you have a very good shot at getting 40+. And depending on if it holds once the US gets home from work, it may go >100. Nice ! :)
 
I like syntactic sugar.
 

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