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1:28 PM
@Ven they want to shout their mistakes from the rooftops
 
Ven
@jaggedSpire I LOUNGE A LOT
3
 
@Ven and we love you for it <3
 
Ven
> http://www.indeed.fr/cmp/D4J/jobs/D%C3%A9veloppeur-C++-c892ef98ecdc8afe?q=D%C3%A9veloppeur+-php
> stack technologique moderne: Node.JS, C++17
THEY REQUIRE EXPERIENCE WITH C++17
 
yes indeed
 
Ven
@jaggedSpire aww
 
1:31 PM
@Ven but do they require 3 years of it or are they looking for amateurs :P
 
Ven
@jaggedSpire They only say it's in their stack :')
 
oh dear
they put what are effectively experimental implementations of a non-final version of a standard in their stack
you should totally apply it sounds like fun
 
Ven
who doesn't heap-allocate their std
 
annyone tried to get into toptal.com
 
1:39 PM
@Ven I try not to get one, thank you.
 
@Ven in that case they'll start getting viable applicants in 2020
 
I think if I ever encounter that paradox I'll just put down that I've been working with the technology since x years following its release
 
10 years C++17 experience in 2016
 
of course, that depends on it having come out yet
work tiem
toodle-oo
 
1:46 PM
@Ven .-. How does this qualify for a hint? You just... told me eaxctly what would work.
 
Ven
@ThePhD ... No.
You didn't even check, I gather – because it doesn't work.
 
oh, such a nice feature of Kotlin val email = client?.personalInfo?.email
 
Ven
even c# has that. also coffeescript
 
it's like optional is a first class feature of the language
 
Ven
@ThePhD Oh, sorry, it does work. I forgot I was using Core...
 
1:54 PM
ooh, and intelij marks when you have a recursive call :D
 
wtb this for functions
like int fib(int n) { if(n == 1 || n == 2) return 1; else return this_fun(n-1) + this_fun(n-2); }
 
@Ven I recently interviewed a guy whose resume said he was expert in C/C++17
 
wow that's a new one
 
> Thomas Thwaites, for creating prosthetic extensions of his limbs that allowed him to move in the manner of, and spend time roaming hills in the company of, goats
 
@Cubbi That must have been a fun interview.
 
Ven
2:02 PM
@Cubbi the absolute madman
 
@thecoshman C# did it first.
 
Ven
@milleniumbug recurrr
 
@slaphappy Actually, plenty of languages did it before C#.
 
Ven
@slaphappy no coffee did it first
 
let's find out.
 
Ven
2:04 PM
groovy did it first
:P
 
seems like
> I had a romantic vision of ‘I get to do what I love,’ when I should have been thinking about how to create value for other people. I was obsessed with this idea. I almost even got a tattoo that said: “Passion” (no joke).

But, I was wrong.
 
Guys.
 
no shit
 
I have to make a decision right now.
 
user1804599
@ThePhD ocamlbuild foo.native
 
2:06 PM
@ThePhD tell us
 
Either I do these interviews and head for Industry immediately after I graduate,
or stick around and wait for March/April to do Graduate School.
 
Recommendations?
My current inclination is that it's nice to be in Academia,
but M O N E Y is kind of one of those things I would like to start having.
In large quantities.
 
user1804599
You can't have that
 
user1804599
money is capitalist and you are a racist and nationalist and nazi if you want that.
 
2:10 PM
@ThePhD I thought so too until I spent a few years as a postdoc dealing with other academics as a rival, rather than as a student.
 
@Cubbi How'd that all work out?
 
@ThePhD what diploma do you have right now?
 
@slaphappy Absolutely none.
 
@ThePhD education is overrated
 
@ThePhD I pissed off a recent Nobel winner and a bunch of his friends. My research still won in the end, but I like the industry more, I think it's more fair.
 
2:13 PM
@ThePhD you're just out of high school?
 
quit uni or whatever it is and get a job
 
Finishing Undergrad this year, want to get PhD and MS degree eventually, but a little sick of being constantly penniless.
 
user1804599
Microsoft degree.
 
Okay
I advise getting a MS
 
user1804599
git rich
 
user1804599
2:13 PM
like dennis and hickey
 
git: 'rich' is not a git command. See 'git --help'.

Did you mean this?
branch
 
how many years left until MS @ThePhD?
 
user1804599
I'm so fucking bored
 
user1804599
help
 
Ven
@rightfold learn ada
 
2:14 PM
@slaphappy I'm applying for programs next year, estimated 1.5 to 2 years to get it (3 semesters worth of work).
 
user1804599
I should make a web framework in ATS and a package manager for ATS and a JSON library for ATS and a database library for ATS.
 
@rightfold sucks to be you
 
so, 2 years of pennilessness
@rightfold not at work?
 
user1804599
No I have a week off.
 
@ThePhD Here's my 2cts. Here in France getting a MS is pretty much required for any decent programming job, so everyone does it. Not sure about the US. In any case money is nice but you're not starving (I think) and the MS is worth the 2 years of junior salary in the long term.
@ThePhD ALSO: Once you get a job you'll have much, much less free time to hone your skills, make friends, etc. The dynamic is different anyway. Might as well make the most of it while you can - you can't really go back
 
2:18 PM
Yeah, someone else told me going from Industry to Academia is like... brick-wall kinds of hard.
 
Ell
@ThePhD MS = masters in science?
 
I've spoken to people that've done it but they had to do some crazy flips.
@Ell Yeah.
 
also you'll be older, and you'll probably be used to a higher standard of living so you'll have to either scale back or spend a lot of money
 
Ell
MEng master race ;)
 
consider, though, that I started working a serious job AS SOON AS POSSIBLY IMAGINABLE out of uni and I regret not taking more my time. So I'm biased.
(bc I was broke)
 
2:21 PM
@slaphappy Everyone who took this route -- even the older IT guy I spoke to who is now pursuing his PhD through a sweet deal at my University -- echoed the sentiment.
My CS adviser said more or less the same thing, but also added "the CS job market is really good right now, so waiting may or may not be a good idea".
Buh. I'm a pretty frugal person and my standard of living is "do I have a bed" "do I have toilet paper" "can I walk to get food" -> "I'm okay"
 
well
the industry has ups and downs but I think you're safe for another two years
 
Alright. I'm gonna just go to see if I can apply for internships... which REALLY cuts the companies I can talk to down to like... ... 2. ;;
Github and Microsoft, here I come...
 
we're hiring an intern :P
 
user1804599
hire me
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You want to work ? Please join intro that privtae room.
 
user1804599
2:25 PM
There are no private rooms.
 
user1804599
All rooms are public.
 
user1804599
And also indexed by search engines.
 
@rightfold you have to be here. besides, would you work as an intern even though you're already experienced?
 
user1804599
If I get a decent salary then I don't see the difference.
 
Ven
@slaphappy I'm interested yo
:D
 
2:27 PM
really?
well, pm me on discord then
 
Ven
I don't even know what you do, actually
I'm really looking for something however
 
Someone of you guys want to work ? You can get 10.000 / 15.000 monthly
 
Ven
yeah with FOREX trading. I was the ads.
@slaphappy and you're not even on discord
 
@Ramy I make more than that slacking here
 
Ven
burn
 
2:40 PM
CRAP
I didn't get the chance to have someone proofread my resume.
FfFfFFffff
 
Ven
aw
 
user1804599
2:53 PM
This is great.
 
Ven
like you
 
Ben
hi, how is everyone?
 
Ven
im well
 
@Aaron3468 So much for the row hammer hypothesis. It passed the entire 6 hour row hammer test in memtest86 and it failed on a known bad binary within 20 min. after I cut the refresh interval in half. Now I'm really out of ideas.
 
Ven
someone fix mysticial kthx
 
3:03 PM
@ThePhD send it
 
@Borgleader
-3
Q: can you guys help me solve this?

SUSANGTO ANDI PUTERA SANJAYAThe only printer in the computer science students’ union is exp eriencing an extremely heavy workload. Sometimes there are a hundred jobs in the printer queue and you may have to wait for hours to get a single page of output. Because some jobs are more imp ortant than others, the Hacker General h...

 
@ThePhD I can tell you why we wouldn't hire you :P
 
^^ Not a bad wall of code.
 
@slaphappy qq
so mean
 
user1804599
@ThePhD learn OCaml
 
3:11 PM
"You are reading a book," the car said. It pulled over and stopped. "This road is paid for by adverstising boards. Look at them to proceed."
 
@Mysticial No longer a wall of anything.
 
@JerryCoffin it's still a "write my code for me" question, but a decently formatted one
 
@JerryCoffin lol, what an epic waste of time.
 
Hey <3
 
@Mysticial I've done some pretty heavy editing to make questions more readable, but I'm pretty sure this beats anything I've done (by quite a bit).
@ratchetfreak Indeed. My hat's off to you sir (or would be if I actually wore a hat).
 
user1804599
3:16 PM
Great example for you badlets who can't comprehend the usefulness of nested optionals:
 
@JerryCoffin not really the bullet points were already there and the paragraphs were quite easy to guess at. The sample input/output was just a ctrl+k away from being decent.
 
user1804599
instance fromSexpMaybe :: (FromSexp a) => FromSexp (Maybe a) where
  fromSexp (List (Atom "Just" : x : Nil)) = Just <$> fromSexp x
  fromSexp (Atom "Nothing") = Just Nothing
  fromSexp _ = Nothing
 
we get it, you got laid
 
@ratchetfreak Shhh...like a magician, an editor should never reveal his secrets. :-)
 
IT'S SUNNY OUTSIDE
GET THE CAMERA
 
3:20 PM
@GillBates Sunny is a state of mind. Or in one of my friends' cases, an ex-girlfriend.
 
@JerryCoffin An ex-girlfriend is a state of mind? Is that what you're trying to tell me?
 
Bark.
 
:33048232 Couldn't you mention right under ThePhD that you can't use your real name?
 
No, my real name is on my actual resume.
 
@Mysticial Bwahahahaha starred the question, top kek
 
3:22 PM
I just don't post the real name here. :D
 
@ThePhD Oh, my bad :o
 
Albeit I'm sure that's enough information that if someone asked around they could find me. u.u
I've tried to make it as succint as I can and include all the good bits... which I think I got.
 
Wow, you worked on anthrax :D
 
Once upon a time I wanted to be a REAL DOKTOR
Then the computers got me.
 
I don't think I've been wanting to be anything for years already.
Except happy of course.
 
3:27 PM
aww
 
Not that I'm sad, but I somehow lack goals :p
 
> tfw you spell San Fransisco wrong
Now I know why I got immediately rejected from that job. :I
 
@GillBates No. I'm saying he has an ex-girlfriend named Sunny.
 
wtf
This PDF maker like
MURDERS my margins
What the hell
 
@ThePhD shit, did you send something? Sorry I was afk
 
3:37 PM
Oh, Yeah. I can relink it right quick.
 
@AndyProwl Yes, but I'm pretty sure I did somewhat better this time, plus I had some additional slides with assembly output from GCC 6 and 7 to show how awesome constexpr lambdas are. :D
 
lol
 
@ThePhD T.T
 
@slaphappy You were too slow again? D:
 
3:41 PM
pm on twitter or discord or something?
I can't dropbox at work
 
Oh yeah, Discord
 
git question
How can I push a branch after a git checkout -b bname without having to type the branch name again twice?
 
I forgot everyone's names in Discord. .-.
 
Mine's easy
 
I think @slaphappy's is just @slap ...
... Yeah, I'll go with that
 
Ben
3:50 PM
I was going to leave.
 
@ThePhD pseudonym name is like atm machine fyi
 
Oh, for the presentation?
 
So, why does Salzburg have a population of only 146,631? Pictures make it look like a much larger city...
 
eh
it's pretty dope actually
when I was a graduate my resume was
2006: enter school
2011: exit school
 
Xeo
@slaphappy there's some git config for it, I think?
 
4:00 PM
I was expecting you guys to spoon-feed me
guess ill just rtfm
 
The git manuals are fucking terrible.
 
@fredoverflow Turbo C++ class. Down the hall from the buggy whip making class, and up-stairs from Philosophy, where today's topic will be: "The wheel. The next big thing, or just a passing fad?"
 
We won't know until we re-invent it, I guess!
 
Did they actually buy licenses for Turbo C++?
 
Turbo C++ is probably abandonware by now :)
 
4:04 PM
@fredoverflow They are. It's just an "API" doc
 
So, like 10 million people isn't a trivial number of licenses?
 
@Mikhail At least a few versions were free downloads for years (but I'm not sure about Turbo C++ per se--main one was Borland C++ 5.5).
 
4:30 PM
...and already a question about default comparison operators:
0
Q: Disabling C++ Default Comparison Operators

KevinZDefault comparison operators are supposedly slated for C++20. But, what if I don't want to see this feature? What if, I want to see default comparison between two structs resolve as a compile-time error? I am wondering: Are default comparisons going to be mandatory? If it is going to be mand...

 
Default comparators? How is that supposed to work?
It compares all the fields in the order they are laid out in the object?
 
@fredoverflow yay another person with the same sentiment as me
 
@milleniumbug The real manual:
 
@Mysticial same order as with operator= or a constructor
 
@JerryCoffin ...that's actually what I did the first year
 
4:38 PM
which is better specified than how subobjects are laid out in memory
 
@Mysticial That's under (heavy) discussion. Most of the proposals so far have said "entirely differently from any existing part of C++, including lots of completely new and unique rules. Oh, and probably no ability to opt-out either."
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah, it better default off. And an explicit bool operator<(...) = default needed to enable it.
 
@milleniumbug Let's face reality: almost everybody does to some extent--you progress from a few memorized commands, to a few that you understand at least a little, to more than you understand better. Nonetheless, it's actually fairly easy to produce states that (by far) the most practical solution is to re-clone, re-apply some edits from your previous repo, and then archive the old repo.
Even when you know enough to be able to recover your repo, unless it's truly huge, there are just times that it's faster and easier to re-clone than fix it.
 
Xeo
@Mysticial That's what every sane person wants.
The standard committee, apparently not so much
It just seems so simple. :<
Just like operator=, apply the defaulted comp. operator on members in-order...
 
just like operator=, don’t generate it automatically
 
4:50 PM
@Xeo Come to think of it, yeah operator= should default off as well.
I've love for a compiler switch to default it off.
 
@Mysticial Just inherit from a base class that has it private or something?
boost::noncopyable
 
@fredoverflow Manually inheriting from a class isn't any better than just manually doing operator=(...) = delete. lol
The biggest annoyance I have with implicit operator= is PODs.
 
Does the return type matter if I use =delete? :)
 
@fredoverflow I'd say it doesn't, not unlike overloading in general
 
Most of the time, when you assign a large POD, the compiler will call memcpy(), rather than assigning each member individually.
 
4:53 PM
struct X
{
    std::map<std::string, int> operator=(const X&) = delete;
};
 
@fredoverflow I always return void for operator=. I've never liked the idea of chaining assignments.
 
Xeo
@Mysticial ?
where's the problem?
 
That will probably break some library code...
 
@Mysticial Shouldn't the compilers get better then?
 
@milleniumbug "should"
 
4:54 PM
What's wrong with memcpy?
 
not enough vowels
 
No problem, just call addvwls.
 
@Xeo Two things. When the POD struct consists of SIMD vectors, the optimal way to copy it is to manually assign each member. When the POD is of medium size and consists of smaller variables that were written to just before the assignment, a memcpy will force them to memory (or stack) and read them back as different sized registers. That cases a massive stall in the processor.
 
Xeo
mh
 
4:57 PM
So I end up having to make my own copy-construct and copy-assign operators to bypass this compiler-stupidity. It applies to all compilers that I regularly use. MSVC, ICC, GCC.
 
interesting
 
Xeo
@Mysticial Well, in the normal world, that should work pretty well. Standard's just unaware of SIMD types in this case, I guess?
So I don't think it's a general deficit, just for your specific case.
 
@Xeo I hit it both in my personal stuff and at work.
 
more of an implementation QoI matter
implementing assignment is as-if rules territory
 
I keep telling people to stop using -O3 because it makes GCC actively try to turn things that look like memcpy's into memcpy's - even when it results in a performance hit. I have numbers to prove it, but of course, nobody cares.
 
Xeo
5:00 PM
@LucDanton Right.
@Mysticial I've never hit it :P
 
@Xeo You won't hit it unless you actually try to measure it. For really small structs, it's not a problem since the compiler won't issue a call to memcpy. It's the medium and large structs that are problematic.
Or any struct that contains SIMD vectors.
 
Xeo
Right. But I just meant to emphasise this:
3 mins ago, by Xeo
So I don't think it's a general deficit, just for your specific case.
 
@Xeo I don't think it's my specific case. The ones that I run into at work are copying network packets.
 
Xeo
I'd wager (with numbers drawn from my imaginary hat), that 90-95% of code doesn't care.
 
They are PODs with varying sized fields.
@Xeo 90-95% of code isn't performance critical either. lol :)
 
Xeo
5:03 PM
@Mysticial That doesn't contradict anything :D
Just saying, compilers memcpy'ing is fine for the general case. As Luc said, QoI wise it should be careful for SIMD stuff or similarly behaving structs, but otherwise...
 
@Xeo I think they actually do the memcpy() more as an optimization for code-size rather than performance. They should be inlining the memcpy() rather than calling the fully generic memcpy that has 10 layers of alignment checks and a gazzilon branches that choose the right path for every situation when the situation is right there in front the compiler.
 
Xeo
@Mysticial They don't? Huh.
But still, QoI again. Complain to your local compiler devs. :P (I'm not being helpful here, I know)
 
@Mysticial yeah, I meant to ask you about that since off the top of my head I recall that sort of stuff is supposed to be __builtin_memcpy and whether that ends up inlined or an actual call depends on further optimizations (or missed optimizations, at is turns out)
@Xeo if I were to guess the optimization is missed (the SIMD case aside) because there is no or not enough interaction between the part that chooses between member-wise assignment and memcpy, and the part that handles inlining memcpy. that can be hairy to improve.
 
@LucDanton IIRC, ICC has several variants of memcpy() including an aligned version. But I don't think I've ever seen MSVC and GCC generate memcpy calls that had anything other than a generic looking name.
So in that sense, ICC sucks the least.
ICC also does a bit better in inlining a memcpy() after it decides to issue.
 
well, it wouldn’t be a call then
 
5:20 PM
In one particular case, I had a struct with 3 __m256i variables in it. When I copied it from memory to stack, ICC generated as 6 xmm copies from memory to stack. Then it read it back as 3 ymms.
IOW, it initially generated an aligned memcpy() for 96 bytes. But I was compiling for Sandy Bridge. And Sandy Bridge's load/store width is 128. So ICC's memcpy for Sandy Bridge uses 128-bit xmm copies.
Then it inlined it. Leaving behind 6 xmm copies.
But from that point, it failed to merge it back into the context where they were originally ymms.
The way I fixed this was to define the copy constructor that manually copied the 3 variables. Then ICC optimized it to 3 ymm loads from memory into register.
The copy to the stack itself was completely optimized out via SRA (Scalar-Replacement of Aggregates) + register promotion of stack variables.
 
5:36 PM
#cppcon attendees: has this year's conference been...
 
6:24 PM
> [...] we have these nice Microsoft iPads.
lol
 
Ven
Oo
 
user1804599
This is great.
 
user1804599
derive instance genericFoo :: Generic Foo
instance toSexpFoo :: ToSexp Foo where toSexp = gToSexp
instance fromSexpFoo :: FromSexp Foo where fromSexp = gFromSexp
 
6:44 PM
Nice.
I'm on goddamn fire.
I DEFINITELY got one interview
and I gotta see about the other 2 places I applied to.
 
When you get yelled at because you broke the API of what seemed to be an internal function and you couldn't find it was used somewhere else far far away :/
 
Sad how people seem to mistake what Trump thinks he will do for what will actually happen
 
@Morwenn Ouch. =/ Rough
 
Well, not « yelled » actually, but the choice of words kind of hurt.
 
I get what you mean.
 
6:51 PM
On the other hand, I apparently managed to correctly implement my multi-selection system and a collapsible toolbar /o/
 
\o\
 
Handling even simple animations in Qt wasn't especially easy, but it's doable.
 
@Morwenn 'doable' is not recommended to describe your sex interests in person
 
Wat
 
@Morwenn "hey, do you like me? yeah you're doable"
 
6:55 PM
But are you? :p
 
doable?
totally, I'd do me
 
On the other other I probably wouldn't do me.
 
user1804599
7:09 PM
> I have a theory that blackholes are like mouths and the stars are like the buttholes
 
Both absord stuff?
 
I have read a book about Franz-Ferdinand and as a result possess the knowledge therein
But I also want to make analogies/jokes about it and I know it won't land, so I'll refrain myself
 
@Morwenn Only if byslecix
 
I want to write a new fun linear data structure, but it'll take time for nothing :/
 
@Morwenn ?
 
7:20 PM
Well, it will be yet another useless data structure.
 
@Morwenn but what structure does it have
 
@orlp Linearly store list nodes in a vector. Whenever you remove an element, swap the node with the last one. It guarantees that there will always be N linear node that you can either use in list order or in memory order depending on your needs. It doesn't have the cool iterator invalidation guarantees of lists.
But you can make fun things: want to sort it? Sort node data in memory order with random-access sort, then relink everything once.
 
@Morwenn but that's just the old swap and pop idiom
 
@orlp Well, I would have been surprised if it didn't already exist in some form anyway :p
 
@Morwenn you know what is a cool structure I was thinking of
 
7:25 PM
@orlp Something too smart for me to understand? :D
 
a vector instead of an (unordered_)map
insert is push_back
remove is swap(it, back()) pop_back
 
user1804599
no you have to check for dupes
 
find is i = find(...); swap(v[i], v[i/2]); return v[i/2];
@rightfold doesn't have exact same semantics
I'm not sure if I care about dupes
maybe it's more of a multiset that can store pairs and search on either member of the pair (or an arbitrary search predicate)
the point is that you're often searching for the same value over and over
 
@orlp I like this
 
so recently searched elements bubble to the top
 
7:29 PM
just like a splay tree
 
linear search is underrated
repeated pointer indirection (read: trees) is pretty expensive
 
Wasn't there an example of flat container whose elements were ordered in binary search tree order or something like that?
 
yeah, it's called std::vector, std::sort
 
Linear search sucks.
 
orlp is right though- although theoretically a good idea, CPUs these days are very fast at linear search, and the cache misses for binary search are pretty heavy
so don't be surprised that on quite a few real-world data sets, a plain linear search can be the winner
 
7:33 PM
And binary search on a sorted vector isn't all that much better if your data contains pointers itself.
e.g., strings.
I benchmarked a tree (std::map), std::vector, std::unordered_map and other bullshit. unordered_map came out on top for as little as 10 elements.
 
@Morwenn you can flatten a tree to an array
 
the worst part of std::unordered_map is bucket interface
 
It would work out better if I was storing int64_t's, because those fit in a register and can be crammed into CPU caches easily, thus making their cache-locality very useful for std::lower_bound and other things.
 
How does branchless binary search fare in the few cases where it works?
 
the children of an element at i are 2*i and 2*i+1
the problem is
 
7:35 PM
what kind of thing were they smoking is beyond me
 
that doesn't work for dynamic trees
that need to rebalance
so if you have a static lookup table, go for it
(also, if you want to start indexing at 0 you need the more ugly 2*(i+1)-1 and 2*(i+1))
 
@milleniumbug LRiO's hard copies of The International Standard
 
@Morwenn fairly well
 
Last time I tried to benchmark it for 8 elements, it was worse than simple linear search, but it might be better with 16 or 32 elements.
 
@Morwenn for 8 elements that's definitely possible
 
7:47 PM
@набиячлэвэли if only
 
@milleniumbug TBH, unordered_map doesn't do that poorly in terms of lookup time.
(If the data is non-trivial data.)
I agree they didn't need bucket iterators and shit, as it is completely unnecessary for the interface of the data structure.
But an actual closed-addressing hashmap structure still isn't the most offensive way to implement a hash table.
In fact, it's pretty damn efficient when it comes to things like random string data and the like.
 
@Morwenn it's a regular external index sort?
@Morwenn related: boost has stable_vector (which already features the indirection to at least get reference stability, not sure about iterator invalidation now)
 
@Morwenn I think you more need to be in the realm of 160 or 1600
 

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