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9:00 AM
There are some licenses that are GNU incompatible right
which means that code released on such license can't be then closed in GNU
maybe I should start using one like that
 
Ell
Idk what you mean by "closed in gnu"
 
could be, but you're evoking the "he who fights monsters" scenario
 
Ell
Nor which gnu license you are referring to
But oracle did it with java originally
 
Stalin was a good guy, because he defeated Hitler.
 
@Ell restricted with GPL
@milleniumbug wut?
I mean BSD licensed code requires the BSD license clause to be reproduced right
so can you make modifications and then release the code under GPL?
 
9:04 AM
If you gaze into abyss too long, the abyss also gazes into you
 
you mean such a license would turn into something similar to gpl?
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz I thought you wanted to use a "free" license
Youre saying "my users can only use these licences"
Which is what you don't like about the GPL
 
mmm I guess
 
Ell
Maybe you and RMS aren't so different after all ;)
 
yeah, you're right
GPL should just be treated as any proprietary license
if you allow redistribution of builds under proprietary licenses, that includes GPL
 
Ell
9:11 AM
Depends What proprietary means to you
 
@Ell restrictive
 
Ell
That's pretty vague
What do you really mean?
What makes a license restrictive?
 
user5058091
hi
 
@Ell it... restricts things?
 
Ell
Good work clarifying
Forget it
You should read about the Socratic method
 
9:18 AM
@Ell restricts things in other ways than protecting the original author, duh
which shouldn't be necessary but it is
@Ell you seem to assume your questions are good btw
arguing silly semantics isn't the Socratic method
 
@BartekBanachewicz They're actually pretty good. Being clear about terms is the best way to start a discussion.
(Especially if they're terms known to be overloaded)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's also the best way to get into the rabbit hole of words, derailing the topic altogether
I've seen that happen way too often
GPL restricts freedom to remix the code in the situations where you don't want to share the result. It's restrictive.
MIT allows you to do that. It's not restrictive.
From user standpoint, MIT isn't restrictive either, because from the user standpoint the source code might not exist at all.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Er, no. It's not like he was debating your definition of a word as right or wrong. He was just asking you to clarify it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That can be solved way more easily with a dictionary.
 
@BartekBanachewicz No, it cannot.
I'll introduce you to Humpty Dumpty.
 
9:28 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's what you use if you want to clarify what a word means.
4 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's also the best way to get into the rabbit hole of words, derailing the topic altogether
besides, you're just proving my point
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, but he wanted to clarify what you meant.
> "I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."
@BartekBanachewicz We're not discussing any word definition. This is a meta-discussion.
 
9:53 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes and frankly, I responded in all honesty.
38 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@Ell it... restricts things?
he just didn't like this answer
but then again this is coming from someone who thinks that "free" is a perfectly good word to describe a thing that's literally restricting what you personally can do with it
(and not just protecting the author which is baseline for pretty much every single license out there)
 
nwp
@milleniumbug they didn't like my entry contribution to juci, saying git integration is unnecessary for an IDE since terminals exist where git works just fine
there is some line where you don't want to reproduce functionality (say, playing videos), but personally I like having git support in my IDE
maybe I should have picked an actual issue
or maybe find a different project since correctly displaying raw string literals also seems out of scope
 
@nwp I think his point is that if you have a command that does the same thing as typing the command, it's worthless
You could have a separate "user commands menu" which would run commands in a terminal and the effect would be the same
the difference is that the latter is user-programmable and the former is not
 
nwp
hmm, I planned to do git commit actually which would show a list of files that could be added and let you type a commit message
that would pass the threshold of not worthless right?
 
I think it would pass
@nwp oh, my issue I raised on gtksourceview doesn't have any responses, 2 months later
 
10:08 AM
 
also ugh OpenGL docs on SO is so fucking terrible
 
"This is not us, it's GTK" is kinda silly, since GTK was their pick, not the user's.
 
I'm editing the topic there but really it needs killing with fire not editing
 
@BartekBanachewicz Isn't all of it?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes OpenGL one is particularly terrible
The Haskell ones I added were kinda nice last time I checked (probably someone ruined them already), as short reference snippets
 
10:13 AM
Hello guys
Uhh why is this call ambigious? coliru.stacked-crooked.com
 
But for OpenGL I just can't see how anything like that could work
 
you need a book, not a freaking wiki page
you can approve my edit btw
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz I didnt dislike this answer, I just found it really totally unhelpful. You just repeated what you said before, when I was looking for clarification for what you meant when you said "restrictive"
 
@EnnMichael delete doesn't remove things from overload resolution
It's a feature.
 
10:15 AM
Aha
Aha aha
 
Ell
It means different things to different people of course. Either way, I'm at work so eh can't have this discussion now
 
I get it. Ty :D
 
I just hope it counts as a substantial edit
hmm I've just realized
docs rep doesn't count as tag rep right
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wait. So, the compiler looks at the declaration Example e { } and it finds two suiting constructors: the void one, and the one that has a default value int parameter. These two are ambigious.
 
10:20 AM
Natalya is leading this course o.O @Borgleader please tell me you're not on SIGGRAPH because sads
I will go there one day.
When I'm rich enough
 
But shouldn't the compiler then look at the fact that the default constructor is deleted anyways? And select the default-value one?
 
@nwp At some point I stopped trying to add features, now I'm only raising bugs
 
also I got moneyz so I suppose no reason to not buy KSP now
 
@BartekBanachewicz Better spend the money on hookers. <-- here a reason :)
 
as far as bad reasons go
this one was pretty bad
 
10:26 AM
:D
 
If you always spend every last coin you earn, you will never be rich
 
> Verizon bought AOL ($222B peak market cap) and Yahoo ($128B) for $4.4B and $4.8B respectively
 
nwp
@BartekBanachewicz because your outrageous hourly wage makes KSP ridiculously expensive for you to play
 
actually
 
nwp
@Telkitty what good is being rich at the cost of not being able to spend money?
 
10:29 AM
security
I wouldn't want to be in my 50s and still not having any assets
 
@Telkitty people typically buy an apartment by then
 
If you can't save anything in your best years, it's going to be a lot harder in your worst years
 
because paying off mortgage is easier than saving
 
Ven
I only have worst years
 
@Telkitty that's... very true
 
10:31 AM
repaying mortgage != spending
you are repaying your debt
 
nwp
@Telkitty I'm too confused about what counts as assets and what are liabilities to worry about that
also my skills making money into more money are basically non-existant
 
you assets are all the things your own that can be converted to cash one way or another, liabilities are all your debts
 
@Telkitty which came as a result of spending
@nwp saving is the easiest way
 
investment != expense
 
if you have x money, add y to it to obtain more money
@Telkitty apartment is kinda both
 
Ven
10:36 AM
sc2 time
 
brand new apartments can be seen as both because depreciation but generally real estate is seen as investment (or home)
 
@EnnMichael No. = delete's intention is to cause a compilation failure. Skipping over it would do otherwise.
 
nwp
@Telkitty I've heard the definition that assets are things that make you money whereas liabilities are things that cost money
turns out besides my job everything is a liability
 
template <typename T>
void f(T&) = delete;
template <typename T>
void f(T const&) {}
Consider this ^
If you just remove the = deleted overload from the candidate set, then it simply "doesn't work".
Checkout reference_wrapper's constructors for a real-life example en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/utility/functional/reference_wrapper/…
 
@nwp Take a 500k house with 350k mortgage for example. Asset is the house which is worth $500k, liability is the $350k mortgage debt. Your net asset value in this house is $150k(500k-350k).
 
10:41 AM
I wonder if we're gonna see opensource windows in say 20 years
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wasn't there some case where = delete would actually skip? Or am I misremembering?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Take the above house for example, if you repay $1000 in principal, your net asset value in the house is $151k(500k-349k). Thus mortgage repayment is not a spending
 
> Kolejne zapowiedzi hojnego rozdawnictwa środków z budżetu państwa i wyciszenie antyrządowych protestów zaczynają działać na korzyść rządu Prawa i Sprawiedliwości.
kurwa mać.
So, does C++ have struct packing finally
 
So, I didn't eat at noon, but at least I got some sweet Pokémons /o/
@BartekBanachewicz AFAIK no. I seem to recall that there was a proposal to add [[packed]] in the future proposals reflector, but I don't remember having seen such a proposal officially submitted.
 
10:57 AM
No, but Boost.Endian kicks ass
 
@milleniumbug no boost.
@Morwenn this is retarded beyond reason btw
 
lol not using boost
 
not using boost is perfectly justifiable
also lol my program behaves differently on OSX and windows
 
if you're writing a library, then maybe
 
@milleniumbug I'm writing an exercise
in the end using any library is a pain in C++, not just boost
so some arguments against using boost are boost-specific, and some are c++-specific
BTW @milleniumbug I solved the constructors problem if you're still at least marginally interested in that thing
 
11:02 AM
Small header-only libraries are not that much of a pain as long as it's just for an exercise.
 
@Morwenn yeah, I'm gonna provide one or two as an exercise of adding a library anyway
I have a plan to make one of them deliberately shitty
to showcase using unique_ptr and stuff
 
@BartekBanachewicz the Terra constructor stuff?
 
@milleniumbug yea
I managed to make a static method.
now whether a macro system to automate that is necessary is another thing I guess
I vaguely remember implementing SFINAE like 2 years ago lol :D
Jul 31 '13 at 22:27, by Bartek Banachewicz
I should write to Terra mailing list about SFINAE
*3 years ago
Jul 31 '13 at 21:56, by Bartek Banachewicz
function is_addable(T)
    local terra expr(a: T, b: T) return a + b end;
    local def = expr:getdefinitions()[1]
    return def:sfinae()
end
lol
I can't remember doing that
I'm old
3
Jul 31 '13 at 22:15, by Jerry Coffin
@BartekBanachewicz Wait. What? My memory actually worked? How can this be?
oh okay I found my old post on the mailing list
function terralib.funcdefinition:sfinae(cont)
    if self.state == "untyped" then
        local ctx = terralib.getcompilecontext()
        ctx.diagnostics:begin()
        self:typecheck()
        --ctx.diagnostics:finishandabortiferrors("Errors reported during compilation.",2)
        return not ctx.diagnostics:finish()
    else
        error("trying to inspect typed function definition")
    end
end
I so don't remember writing that o.O
 
11:28 AM
 
@Telkitty preach
 
preach? I must have a purpose if I am preaching
I merely shared the knowledge I know of
 
@Telkitty Your knowledge you know off is to great for the human race. It must be preached to the cats
 
I like that use of 'off'
also, pet cats and dogs don't usually work, unlike their owners
cat has staff
 
11:45 AM
@Telkitty that was an accident xD
 
OMG
Windows10 alt-tab is great
why didn't I ntoice before
also wow it actually has desktops now
okay I think it's worth upgrading
 
@BartekBanachewicz Almost every Mahor OS has Alt+Tab
For switching tabs like Ubuntu, Mac OSX , Windows, etc . . .
 
@user5600875 yes but every OS shows it differently
did you see how Win10 shows it?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Ubuntu Workspaces is simmilar to Virtual Desktops in Windows
 
Xeo
I wish Win10 Winkey + Tab would allow arrow keys :|
 
11:50 AM
I have indeed seen it
But who cares how it shows? The mejor part is switching tabs am i right?
 
@Xeo I think they should just merge those two; make alt-tab be full-screen and that's it
@user5600875 it's easier to find the window you want to switch into this way
 
ni .
Both of them require alt+tab
i dont think im understanding you to well :(
 
@user5600875 but you actually see the contents?
 
yes i do have a Windows 10
and an Ubuntu
 
yes, that's my point
Windows before 10 didn't show it so nicely
 
11:52 AM
i see what you mean. But i dont care for that really
 
Xeo
Win 8 and Win 10 alt-tab are pretty similar
 
mmm I'm still not sure about buying an ultrawide screen
 
@BartekBanachewicz i wish i had an ultrawide screen :(
 
I am not sure if it's worth it just yet
 
12:04 PM
ooooh
someone is selling those, hand-made, for really really cheap
it's beautiful
it could actually be a great option
I wonder if I could order a custom one
without the handle on the top so that the rack could rest more easily
 
@BartekBanachewicz whats so nice about it?
 
10 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
it's beautiful
and really cheap
and well made
 
@BartekBanachewicz No, what i mean is what would you use it for?
 
@user5600875 for playing? it's a guitar cab
 
12:23 PM
@BartekBanachewicz What's that?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes #pragma pack or __attribute__((packed))
both, as you can observe, compiler-specific
 
But it is compiler-specific anyway.
 
I suspect it has to do with the fact that C++ allows a lot of freedom for the compilers
 
@BartekBanachewicz Actually the opposite.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, using those attributes on POD structs seems to produce exactly the same effect
as an example, take this:
struct BmpFileHeader {
    uint16_t type;           // Magic number for file
    uint32_t size;           // Size of file
    uint16_t reserved1;      // Reserved
    uint16_t reserved2;
    uint32_t offBits;        // Offset to bitmap data
};
 
12:31 PM
I know the use cases.
 
It's not uncommon to construct such a struct from a contiguous memory region containing the members' data.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well then, why can't it be done without compiler-specific extensions?
 
My point is that since this is basically #pragma fuck_alignment, it's kinda weird to have it standard.
 
well, yet?
@R.MartinhoFernandes But is it really?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Because within the confines of language, everything is aligned.
 
Morning
 
12:32 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, that's pretty much what it is.
Adding this will require lots of special rules.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I can't find the alignment rules for 16 and 8 bit types :(
> Types char16_t and char32_t denote distinct types with the same size, signedness, and alignment as uint_least16_t and uint_least32_t, respectively
 
@BartekBanachewicz learned from OsDev that __attribute__((packed)) is not nice to the compiler. Especially when used a lot! Rather erase those and use bitfields
 
lol, bitfields are nice to the compiler...
 
@user5600875 what does "not nice to the compiler" mean?
 
@user5600875 Which compiler?
 
12:36 PM
i was about to explain that
g++, clang++ ...
 
Protip: misaligned fields are just as bad regardless of how you produce them.
 
@BartekBanachewicz not nice in a sense , not very convienent i can put it? not very good at explaning stuff , but it was these Os Dev's that explained me not to use or abuse the __attribute__(packed)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that was what I was thinking
@user5600875 i'd say it's very convenient
I can do reinterpret_cast<BmpFileHeader*>(buffer)
this is convenient
now what's "not nice to the compiler" again?
 
guess its both of yours oppinon. you can argue vs this Os'Devs in Freenode
like i said
 
@BartekBanachewicz The misaligned fields require special gymnastics to get at.
 
12:38 PM
@user5600875 no, you brought this up, and I'm arguing with you
 
@BartekBanachewicz lololol. They told me not to use it. So i dont use it, im telling you guys you shouldnt abuse it learning from the Os"Devs
 
@user5600875 Which is cargo culting.
 
@user5600875 So you don't know why it's bad. Great.
 
not sure when __attribute__((packed)) came into C++ Anways. Im guessing C++11
 
3 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Protip: misaligned fields are just as bad regardless of how you produce them.
 
12:39 PM
@user5600875 it's not standard
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes No more like. I forgot
wait let me ask them one second
 
Jul 20 at 10:54, by user5600875
no no.. i already have learned C++ Very well
I'll just leave this here
 
@user5600875 No need. You could just read the text on your screen right here.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, I fully expect struct member access to be ptr + member offset interpreted as 2^n byte sized segment
 
Lol you are calling C++ OsDevs didnt learn C++ Well @BartekBanachewicz ?
 
12:41 PM
@user5600875 No, I am saying you didn't learn it well.
 
Obviously i didnt. But you can take it from the Os'Devs. Anways im logging back to tell you guys what they told me
 
@user5600875 kek that sentence
 
9
Q: What's the actual effect of successful unaligned accesses on x86?

sharptoothI always hear that unaligned accesses are bad because they will either cause runtime errors and crash the program or slow memory accesses down. However I can't find any actual data on how much they will slow things down. Suppose I'm on x86 and have some (yet unknown) share of unaligned accesses ...

hi @Griwes
 
__attribute__((packed)) should be used when you need a packed thing, lol
 
Lol @Griwes is here
 
12:43 PM
There's no discussion about that ever.
Yes of course.
I'm in all of the trendy places.
 
and go to #osDev . they will explain all about it
 
(Yes, that implies ##C++ on freenode is not trendy.)
 
wait you are in #osDev ?
 
@user5600875 I'm a regular there, you dummy.
 
12:44 PM
?
 
it's pretty hilarious
 
lol he is there
 
lol indeed
 
Ok im not sure if you heard the argument vs that attribute
 
heheheheheheh
 
12:44 PM
ask mrvn , or sortie
 
his world must've collapsed now
 
My World?
 
it's almost as if something gets said in that chat doesn't necessarily make it true
who would've thought
 
Griwes just ask mrvn and sortie. And you will get the same response i was giving
 
@user5600875 your response was "don't use them because hurr durr"
 
12:46 PM
@user5600875 please point me to when that discussion happened.
 
AsuMagic really bro?
Yesterday... like 8:40PM Eastern time here
8-9PM Im going to give you that range
 
lol eastern time
 
@BartekBanachewicz one sec. let me finish with Griwes
Yeah whats wrong with that? @Griwes
 
funny enough that Nehalem actually lists "fast unaligned memory access" as one of the introduced optimizations in the Intel's guide
 
12:48 PM
sec let me ask sortie
ill give you his quotes
 
@user5600875 give me whatever time zone the #osdev logs use (I think it's Pacific).
 
@user5600875 I want reasons, not quotes.
 
Quotes and Reasons
Wait one sec
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's not enough.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes but really is it all about performance in the access?
 
12:49 PM
Cache-straddling will cause a difference between "no memory access" and "fast memory access"
 
namespace be = boost::endian;
struct BmpFileHeader {
    be::native_uint16_t type;           // Magic number for file
    be::native_uint32_t size;           // Size of file
    be::native_uint16_t reserved1;      // Reserved
    be::native_uint16_t reserved2;
    be::native_uint32_t offBits;        // Offset to bitmap data
};
 
Much better. But native byte order is ugh.
 
amazing.
who the fuck cares
it's gonna be slower when you're skipping bytes anyway
if your goal is to load a 100-field structure and read one field then unaligned access might still total faster
if you have a densely packed memory, you're gonna align it in one way or another
and densely packed memory is what files are on disk
 
@milleniumbug BMP's are always little-endian, so there's no reason to stick to native.
@BartekBanachewicz What.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes bmp file on disk literally contains 2 bytes for type then 4 bytes for size.
that's what you gonna get when you read it into memory
 
12:52 PM
Yes, and?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah
 
What does "you're gonna align it in one way or another" mean?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes now if you want to treat bytes from 2 to 5 as an 32-bit integer, you need to align them, right?
 
No, not really.
 
sadly can't edit it now
 
12:53 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes then why are tightly packed structs a problem?
 
The typical approach is to read two words and bitshift them together.
 
how does that differ from whatever the cpu would do on unaligned access of a struct member?
(honest question)
 
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