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user406009
10:04 PM
@Morwenn In what sense?
 
@Morwenn is that what the kids are calling weed these days?
 
@ThePhD Why do people insist on coroutines again?
 
@VermillionAzure Because parallelism, why?
 
@ThePhD No but weren't they like cooperative green threads
???
 
Anyway.
 
10:06 PM
Dunno, @MadameElyse probably has a rant on the subject.
 
Coroutines in Lua are different.
 
user1804599
Lua coroutines don't provide parallelism, you fool.
 
Show, don't tell. Why am I having to come up with the code? What does all this have to do with the question? Q. "What happened to slistS" A. "It got disabled on your platform because it doesn't provide <slist>". It wasn't changed since september 18th 2000sehe 10 secs ago
 
user1804599
They provide the greatest, most glorious concurrency primitive: the thread.
 
Some vampires don't even realize what they're doing I guess
 
10:09 PM
I think I finally get coroutines now
 
bitches, head over to discord for sexy voipness
 
user406009
@ThePhD Technically, for concurrency, but whatever.
 
user406009
@VermillionAzure People like coroutines because you have a nice linear flow of logic in your code.
 
Bah.
Our president is literally imbecile.
 
user406009
@wilx Which country?
 
10:10 PM
@ThePhD Can I suggest no? Wouldn't it be bad to mix C++ control and Lua control over Lua coroutines?
 
Geebus, there should be upper limit on age.
@Lalaland The Czech Republic.
@ThePhD I feel like that every fucking day for at least the last two years.
 
WHATEVER B O I S
Coroutine support is for losers anyway.
 
@ThePhD Suppose I start coroutine A in Lua. It yields. However, I somehow program C++ to call another iteration of the coroutine without notifying Lua. Now the behavior of all the code that uses the coroutines depends on the C++ implementation messing with the coroutine flow. Now this example depends on whether the iteration of the coroutine matters. Is that a good or bad thing?
 
Time to write that paper and pretend everything i- OH MY GOD I'M BEING CINCHED I DIDN'T EVEN ASK A QUESTION. ;~;
 
@Lalaland He's becoming so old that his racism sounds like humour.
 
10:13 PM
e.g. It's like I want elements 0-2 through a generator-like coroutine and then C++ steals element 1 because it calls it in-between the first and second Lua call. There could be situations where this design is needed but the design itself might be bad
 
Awww fuck I'm gonna have to write this paper in Latex please god no I don't wanna.
 
@ThePhD Write it in Markdown and convert using Pandoc!
 
user1804599
@Lalaland No, because you can turn async and sync into each other whenever you like.
 
The guy who says « I am against nationality loss, we shouldn't ban extremists, we should kill them ».
 
user1804599
You can get sequential looking code without them.
 
user1804599
10:14 PM
It's about APIs.
 
@MadameElyse Is it better to have default async or default sync
 
@wilx That's an even less appealing idea.
 
user406009
@Morwenn Sounds sorta like our Trump.
 
@ThePhD Download a visual editor?
 
@Lalaland I wonder which of them is the most extreme, but yeah.
 
10:16 PM
@ThePhD Why? It is pretty easy to write the meat in Markdown, then convert and then tinker with the LaTeX.
 
@Morwenn I think Trump isn't serious
 
Except that Jean-Marie Le Pen is 87 years old.
And dead serious.
 
sbi
Or is he seriously dead?
Goood evening.
 
evening
 
sbi
I am ill. I was down in bed with the flu for several days. Lots of fun when you have little kids to tend to...
 
10:21 PM
@ThePhD are you expected to deliver a latex file?
 
sbi
I'd rather deliver a latex file than a baby.
 
@VermillionAzure ouch. That's worse than Trump
 
@sbi I'd rather deliver a whole TeX package
 
@KhaledKhnifer No, just PDF.
 
user1804599
 
10:25 PM
@ThePhD Honestly, what is the problem with either using LaTeX directly or through Markdown/Pandoc?
 
@ThePhD so this isn't about Latex. you can use anything else to achieve the same result.
 
@MadameElyse Why are there dog's bollocks in there
 
user1804599
XD
 
@wilx Just new tools and I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing for the maximum throughput.
I honestly do need to learn LaTeX (again), so. I'll probably use that.
 
I ain't touchin' nuthin' with dog's bollocks in it
 
user406009
10:27 PM
@ThePhD Texmaker and overleaf are quite good.
 
@ThePhD Well, you can really write quite a lot with just Markdown fast and convert into LaTeX very easily.
Unless you have special needs for unusual packages/environments/settings.
 
@wilx I don't see much benefit on using Markdown though... you just save writing \chapter{blah} by using underscores and such
 
let's not forget about all the annoying boilerplate that's avoided when using markdown
 
@VillasV It is much easier to type. Also, you do not have to decide whether you will use chapters or not outright. You can just use # Heading 1 and change its meaning depending on pandoc setting.
 
Someone here mentioned something about making C++ functions "first class"...
 
Ven
10:30 PM
@MadameElyse ew "if"
 
user1804599
If is great.
 
user406009
@ThePhD Haven't they been "first class" all the way since C? With function pointers?
 
@Lalaland There's arguments against that but I need to find them....
 
"of course set everything to UTF-8, of course use these rules for spacing, of course do all this shit"
 
@wilx true, but never had that doubt TBH. And that could even be changed by search and replace.
 
Ven
10:32 PM
@Lalaland well "first class" would probably require some kind of expression (or nestable) form?
 
user406009
I thought the whole point of "first class" was that you could treat them like any other data.
 
user406009
You can pass them in a function parameters.
 
Markdown would make LaTeX boilerplate smaller and prettier (not less present), but for me at least the overall "writing difficulty" is the same
 
user406009
You can store them in structs.
 
user406009
You can return them from functions, etc, etc.
 
10:33 PM
that's function pointers, which is good enough
 
@VillasV Well, yes. But that is orders of magnitude harder than changing a parameter on a command line.
 
user1804599
@Ven I tried to do it without if and it would complain about nondeterminism.
 
Ven
But you can't create one inplace. It can't store data, etc :[
 
I guess first class is not being able to treat the function itself like a value?
 
AFAIR in C f() decays f to function pointer
 
Ven
10:33 PM
@MadameElyse find another way. If is disgusting
 
user1804599
I had a discussion about the term "first class" in #perl recently.
 
user406009
@ThePhD But you can treat them like values.
 
typedef void f(); f a_function; is not a value though, it's a function declaration (!)
 
I love the Markdown/Pandoc combination. Whenever I have to write a blurb at work, I use Markdown. Then I either send a .pdf or a .docx or just paste the .docx contents into an email, etc.
 
user1804599
We came to the conclusion that the term "first class" is exactly like the terms "OOP", "weak typing", and "FP", in that you have to define them before talking about them, otherwise the discussion is useless.
 
10:34 PM
@Lalaland You can treat some like values. std::pair<int(int), void(std::string)> doesn't really work?
 
user1804599
@Ven I like it.
 
user1804599
It is easy to read.
 
I have done a Beamer presentations in Markdown as well.
 
It's kind've like the arrays bit.
 
Ven
@MadameElyse ofc you have to define 'em
 
user406009
10:35 PM
@ThePhD Uh, it does if you have the type signature for the function pointer correct
 
@wilx hm ok that's something I'd like to try
 
Pandoc/Markdown is a Swiss knife of causal text authoring.
 
This reminds me that you can't return plain C arrays from code.
 
2 mins ago, by milleniumbug
that's function pointers, which is good enough
 
user406009
I would sort of buy the argument that arrays in C are not "first class".
 
10:36 PM
@milleniumbug Doesn't the water get murkier when you throw in member function pointers?
 
Ven
They're not :P
Fuck 'em
 
yeah, the weird thing is that in C there is no operation that you can't do on function pointers that you can do on functions
IOW they're almost an implementation detail
 
Almost.
 
I have used Pandoc/Markdown to write a post in Pandoc Markdown, which is convenient and I know the syntax, just to convert it into PHP Markdown + Extensions and paste it into Wordpress.
 
@wilx link or didn't happen
 
10:37 PM
I have used Pandoc/Markdown to author longer posts on Facebook, exporting the Markdown I write in slightly different format easier digestible by people untouched by Markdown.
 
This also reminds me is that there's no way to refer to a constructor as a plain old function.
You have to wrap it up.
 
C++ complicates things because you can do operations on types and introduces multiple function-like thingies that are just like functions except they aren't
also the distinction between function and function pointer becomes more visible
 
C++ also should have always passed reference this as the first argument.
It would do away with the pedantries of const &, && member function qualifier bullshit.
 
This is a script I use.
 
user406009
@ThePhD Rust does that.
 
10:40 PM
@Lalaland A smart move.
Oh also, this should have been a reference.
 
@VillasV Sorry, updated with the actual Wordpress usable version.
@VillasV: The part that produces ${NAME}.wp.md is the one that produces Wordpress compatible Markdown.
${NAME}.fb.md is for Facebook posts.
@ThePhD Isn't this what placement-new is for?
 
@wilx Is it possible to pass the placement new function pointer to anything?
 
@ThePhD AFAIK you can pass it a pointer to some memory that you want your instance constructed in.
 
Right, but again
 
10:46 PM
I can't do something like...
T do_or_generate( Fx function, (T)(*)(int, int) ) { ... }
do_or_generate( action, new T () ... )
That special casing is sadface.
Of course, there's always "write a freefunction wrapper" but then we're back to boilerplate, and how many of those do we need to have before we're tired of it?
It also means the user needs to be aware of that boilerplate, because I can't detect the idiom internally in my function (unless I invent a tag type, which is just more Non-Standard Boilerplate™)
 
I once tried writing latex first-hand at uni, and it was painful, if you make one mistake in a mess, it's horrible, the error returned by latex compiler is always misleading, and consecutive blocks have different compatibility issues, and some headers are required based on the mode, and if one is missing it's just like a C code with a missing semicolon.
 
@ThePhD Well, it seems to me that you need to stop overloading and split the cases where one takes a function pointer that generates stuff and the other that generates stuff just from knowing the type or such.
 
@ThePhD #define self (*this) ?
 
@sbi ffs
 
sbi
10:52 PM
@thecoshman Huh?
 
@sbi :D
 
@wilx The function pointer was just an example: I could make it take a universal reference to Gen&& generate_thing but then there's still some functions that are by nature unnamable and untouchable.
@sbi Pffffff you can't just drop nerd things on me like that.
 
sbi
@ThePhD I can.
 
@sbi that's truly terrible
also, hi :D
 
sbi
@thecoshman too, lo
 
10:57 PM
also, discord good sir
we have black jack and hookers!
 
sbi
Jan 1 '12 at 21:40, by sbi
Can someone please pin that? I'm too modest to do it myself.
 
o_0
 
sbi
@thecoshman Is that the newest chat fad? No, thanks. You switch them like clean people change their underwear, and I don't feel like playing this game of catch-up. Also, my voice still sounds like a rasper, and it hurts accordingly.
 
ignore the crappy music, but check me out :D
@sbi we're experimenting man. also, it has both voice and text chat
it's a nice integrated service
 
sbi
11:03 PM
@thecoshman Well, once you're done experimenting, and have settled for something good and stable, feel free to ping me again.
 
I need to
do some reading on statistics again
 
@sbi This might just be the one... ~man~
 
sbi
@thecoshman And then it might not.
 
because I want to change Robot's nonius to handle things of increasing sample sizes...
 
user406009
@ThePhD What exactly do you want to do?
 
11:07 PM
Why would xeo think a default comparison implementation matter?
 
@CaptainGiraffe Convenience for std::map<> usage?
 
@Lalaland Are there still Texas rangers out there?
 
@wilx You'd be working as much to assure that your class fulfils the actual requirements. Also what kind of keys are you using?
 
sbi
Ohh! Look what I found:
Nov 16 '10 at 18:51, by Jeff Atwood
ok, I suck at C++ so I will leave now
 
aww I wasn't there to do the barking
 
11:12 PM
@sbi Book review gigs are sweet deals.
 
sbi
@CaptainGiraffe I know, I know. AW once sent me a dozen books as a compensation for reviewing one. :)
 
Apparently, I will have to use placement new. RIP me.
 
@CaptainGiraffe for objects in default comparison, what does a > b mean?
 
not reall ysomething that should be necessary unless implementing a container of some description
 
@KhaledKhnifer Nothing yet, unless you define it.
 
11:16 PM
@CaptainGiraffe but with default comparison, you can do a > b, even without opeator> implemented. but on what basis does it return true or false, I wonder.
 
the example stated bu isocpp, struct S{ int x; } is trivial and not enough of a motivator for attempting to deduce semantics. That's just my opinion.
 
user406009
@KhaledKhnifer Lexical ordering probably.
 
struct person{ std::string name; std::string id; }; is my counter.
 
@Morwenn Not nearly as big of a problem as it might initially seem. In fact, usually pretty trivial (though the matching direct invocation of the destructor is a little extra work).
 
gotta say doing major refactoring in haskell is pretty painless you just change shit because it's just the shit that changes
I can even do it drunk
 
user406009
11:24 PM
Lexical ordering of name and then id.
 
nvm I wasn't paying attention
 
@Columbo Does prompt an interesting question though: how long before MS gets Seagate (or whomever) to just pre-load Windows onto new drives, so even with a home-built system, you plug it in, turn it on, and it immediately boots to Windows 10?
 
@JerryCoffin Never, since they EU would likely not allow it?
 
@JerryCoffin I don't understand?
 
Ell
I'm v tired
 
11:30 PM
@Ell go t sleep
 
Ell
But but but drinking n clubbing n such
 
Ell
A friend is going to new Zealand();
 
@Ell Tell him to avoid Mordor.
 
speaking of hacks
you know whom I haven't seen in a while
filip roseen
 
11:32 PM
Your mum?
 
I haven't seen mom in 3 weeks yea
 
@Columbo Right now, MS gets HP, Dell, etc., to install Windows on systems. What if they went directly to Seagate, Samsung, Western Digital, etc. to preload Windows onto the drives, even if they're sold without the rest of a system?
 
@Lalaland Currently nonius doesn't really support when you want to do "X iterations" for a sample, and have that number increase. Its samples only run your code once (not for say, each N where N is 100K, 200K, 300K, etc...), and that might throw off statistical estimations when you want to have an internal loop that does more work than other samples.
 
@CaptainGiraffe if default comparisons are applied on all classes, then a > b ~ a.member[i] > b.member[i], if it's a primitive type it's a direct comparison, if it's a class, then all classes have at least default comparison, ..etc
 
I think what I need to introduce into nonius is the idea of a cluster.
 
11:33 PM
@JerryCoffin Why would HDD vendors pay the MS license?
Well, actually, it would just be the unverified version, I suppose
 
@KhaledKhnifer My first member is std::unique_ptr<stuffy>, now what?
 
That is, a cluster is a collection of samples that are specified to measure the work done when computed at least N times, where N can increase between what nonius typically calls a run.
 
@JerryCoffin Dell and others actually modify these images anyway.
 
@CaptainGiraffe doesn't matter what it is, all classes have default comparison in that model
 
My Alienware has a dedicated Win7 DVD with a tweaked version of the canonical installer
 
11:35 PM
@Columbo The big ones do. There are smaller vendors who don't. Doesn't make much difference either way.
 
@KhaledKhnifer A default comparator doesn't make sense to me. Maybe you find it useful. I don't.
 
@Columbo Given how set MS is to replace older versions with Windows 10 (including not only giving away copies to virtually anybody with an existing OS, but nagging them constantly to accept their generosity) I don't find it all that hard to imagine MS giving them a really sweet deal on it. Alternatively, having the image there, but requiring the user to buy an activation code to continue using it.
 
Oh. Fuck me...
 
@JerryCoffin I'm pretty sure the NSA has something to do with it as well.
 
So, for my, uh.
Overload resolution thingy.
I didn't really consider the case of...
 
11:39 PM
@CaptainGiraffe it's default comparisons, not default comparator. and I don't find it useful, I find it wrong, it assume everything is comparable.
 
struct A {};
struct B : A {};

void fooA( A* ) { }
void fooB( B* ) { }

lua.set_function( "func", fooA, fooB );
lua.script( "func(instance_of_B)");
This one will match on fooB.
But what if I remove the fooB function and pass a B?
Will it work?
 
@Mysticial That could well be too. In any case, it's pretty clear that for Windows right now, MS considers market share more important than profit.
 
It.. doesn't work, which I guess is kiiiinda bad, but...
 
@JerryCoffin Speaking of asshole organizations. Intel's Skylake microcode update fixes both the recently discovered bug and it disables overclocking on non-K chips.
 
Ell
Yeah Intel are douchebags mayn
I'm undecided as to whether microcode "needs" to be free or not. Hardware doesnt but why not?
 
11:48 PM
@Mysticial You wanna o'clock, you gots tuh pony up the cash!
 
@Ell To be fair though, it's less of an issue now than it was pre-Sandy Bridge. Unlocked chips nowadays are only $250+. Back then it was 1k USD.
Granted, I shouldn't be the one talking since I have a 5960X which is 1k USD.
 
@Ell Because it's not economically feasible, and when you get down to it, "free software" is much more about economics than principles in general.
 
@JerryCoffin I have a feeling some of the FSF people will disagree on that since they tend to lean a bit more on the idealistic side. :)
 
Now, I must wonder, this long distance sex toy (respectably done video, but come on)... would they have programmed the embedded logic with C++? Note how this is ontopic.
 
@JerryCoffin The crux is that Win10 isn't ready yet.
I had it running for a while; Crashed regularly.
 
user406009
11:55 PM
@Columbo Really? I have yet to encounter any crashes with Win10?
 
user406009
Could it be your drivers?
 
@Columbo Win10 runs pretty stably for me. But not before I hacked in ways that violate the TOS so badly that MS would love to cut my head off and put it on a flag pole in Redmond.
 
user406009
@Mysticial You tried to disable the reporting back to MS?
 
@Lalaland Yes, both by disabling them from the system itself and by firewalling everything that isn't whitelisted.
 
@Mysticial If I'm allowed to sound a little cynical for a moment, many of them remind me of protesters from the Viet Nam era. When the US was in the war, they swore to anybody who'd listen that they were absolutely dedicated to ending war, improving the human condition, and making life better for everybody. But as soon as the US pulled out of the war, most protests stopped completely, and the rest shrank by a factor of 20 or so.
 
11:59 PM
I don't claim to block everything. But as far as I can tell, it looks like everything.
 

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