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12:46 AM
yello
what is up
nobody
nobody egain
 
@VermillionAzure @rightfold's cock
 
@Rapptz crapshoot: I’d really like to have actual ellipses (…) in my code blocks to handwave details away, but that tends to make Sphinx choke on it. I can resort to three dots (...), but obv. that’s sometimes an actual C++ token
I don’t suppose you know if there’s a way around that?
 
how does it choke on it
 
> WARNING: Could not lex literal_block as "c++". Highlighting skipped.
 
ugh pygments
try // ...
 
1:01 AM
oh, well spotted
@Rapptz passes through, no harm done
I thought that was on Sphinx’s end ._.
it looks like Unicode support is done piecemeal :S
@Rapptz I’mma file something once I figure out what sort of testcase the pygments wants, unless you want to tackle it
 
idk I use highlight.js
 
does that require a lot of hooking up?
 
oh not for sphinx
lemme check if pygments has the same option highlight.js has
 
1:16 AM
Hey, where would I look to find information about writing a computer program that would stream video from a camera connected via a radio connection?
for my quadcopter tinkering...to add a little context.
thanks for any help! :)
 
The Python room
 
Is that the only way?
 
Yes
 
@LucDanton pygments is just bad lol
at least highlight.js has a way to highlight as much as possible in case it doesn't consider it correct
pygments doesn't have this
it's either all or nothing
 
1:33 AM
@Rapptz I’m not so sure about that
>>> highlight('α = 1.0;', CppLexer(), HtmlFormatter())
'<div class="highlight"><pre><span></span><span class="err">α</span> <span class="o">=</span> <span class="mf">1.0</span><span class="p">;</span>\n</pre></div>\n'
my interpretation is that it points out what it doesn’t recognise, but still goes on
as a hack you can style errors as regular code. though that won’t help me cos Sphinx is being strict I think
heh, Pygments bug reports are self-demonstrating cc @Rapptz
@Rapptz it’s Sphinx policy to not highlight if the highlighter reports an error, even if it still does a best effort
okay so that was cute but it’s of no help, I use … outside of identifiers obviously
there’s "Created using Sphinx ." in the footer of the Pygments docs so it’s fucking up my searches :(
 
1:58 AM
@Rapptz here is where Sphinx asks Pygments to raise exceptions on errors. then Sphinx skips highlighting if there’s an exception.
 
lol but why
 
from what I can tell Sphinx is not set up to let you customize that behaviour from the config etc.
 
closest there is is highlight_options
but that's not there
or rather, only thing there is
 
yes but also no, cos that plugs into the highlight options of Pygment—the raiseonerror thing is at the lexer level
 
yep
 
2:02 AM
i.e. there’s already a choice to expose certain Pygments internals, just not the bits we need
I think I can frame what I want in terms of pseudo-code highlighting, and file that with Sphinx
e.g. "I want C++ pseudocode in my docs, but there’s no Pygments lexer for it. On the other hand, a regular C++ lexer that doesn’t raise on error could do the job reasonably well"
does that sound reasonable and actionable?
time to hack Sphinx
I changed my mind it is in fact time to eat a banana
 
2:18 AM
@LucDanton make sure to only use your lips
they're sensitive to teeth
 
2:50 AM
 
3:01 AM
> in a monoscaped font
 
3:23 AM
@Rapptz filed
 
neat
 
 
3 hours later…
6:14 AM
@LucDanton bby u do what u want with ur body
 
6:26 AM
@GundolfGundelfinger since it’s the first HoT birthday there’s a thread asking people what’s their favourite memory of it. simply 'the music' is the highest upvoted at +32 vs +9 for the second most favourite, that should tell you something
(don’t read it though it’s spoilerific, obviously)
 
Sam
7:24 AM
Hello guys........!!
Good afternoon!
 
Apparently Microsoft dissociated my MS phone app from my company
and now apple has removed my oldest app from its app market
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz I bet the Saudi Arabian flag which preaches violence is totally fine.
 
maybe I should start doing maintenance again on my apps
 
Ven
well met
 
7:36 AM
that time of the month! I need to travel less so I don't miss making such announcements
 
Ven
:/
 
>_<
 
@rightfold I wouldn't be surprised
 
I am such a bad developer, I need to routinely check up on my own apps
I have noticed that some of them stopped working properly
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
7:39 AM
This is the kind of FP I like.
 
user1804599
Nice readable pipeline.
 
user1804599
No branches.
 
Ven
now go pointfree
 
user1804599
I will :)
 
user1804599
The stuff in the lambda is some dummy experiment
 
7:42 AM
@rightfold your font smoothing seems to be missing
 
Ven
needs ligature
 
@rightfold eh, inb4 imperative nooblets going "oh noes I don't see variables it's so unreadable"
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz I don't like font smoothing with this font
 
user1804599
I zoomed in to make the jpeg compression less prominent
 
user1804599
7:44 AM
At font size 12 it looks super crisp and the lines are 1px wide
 
8:06 AM
ergh... I've lost track of github project that has patch for ST
 
Ven
@jaggedSpire @Borgleader I recommend reddit.com/r/Awwducational
 
@Ven Needs more cowbell.
@thecoshman Have you stared it?
 
@wilx I thought I had, but I canny find it. Unless it's a gist, in which case I just don't know how to find stared gists
 
Funny, XXX links to some actual profile. :D
 
lol
 
thanks, there it is :D
except it looks like that gist is gone now :(
 
Ven
shoulda forked it
 
user1804599
import Control.Bind (bindFlipped)
import Prelude hiding ((=<<))
infixr 1 bindFlipped as =<<
 
user1804599
=<< is left-associative in the prelude lol
 
user1804599
it got fixed but not yet released
 
Ven
8:20 AM
:|
 
user1804599
:| is right-associative.
 
Ven
Good thing there are types, or changing the assoc could be really nasty.
 
user1804599
the precedence is fine
 
Ven
@rightfold fixeth
@rightfold lol. From $work codebase:
my $_globals = {};

sub globals
{
  return %_globals;
}
 
user1804599
Also there is this nasty issue where you can't use liftEff with Aff when the Eff action may throw an exception, because you'd get duplicate err :: EXCEPTION effect in the effect row of launchAff. :/
 
user1804599
8:22 AM
So to fix it, you have to use unsafeCoerceEff. XD
 
@rightfold lol
 
Ven
:goodware:
 
user1804599
@Ven That doesn't compile.
 
user1804599
%_globals is not in scope.
 
user1804599
Did you mean %$_globals?
 
8:23 AM
@Ven ...you have a work codebase in Perl?
 
Ven
Apparently it does work, because they're using that code
@Griwes Stuff we maintain for client, mostly
 
user1804599
liftEff'
  :: forall eff a
   . Eff (err :: EXCEPTION | eff) a
  -> Aff eff a
liftEff' = liftEff <<< unsafeCoerceEff
 
Ven
@rightfold SIGIL VARIANCE!!!!1
 
@rightfold ...and then people come and say that C++ is unreadable and ugly
 
user1804599
What is unreadable about it?
 
user1804599
8:24 AM
After learning PureScript, it is perfectly readable.
 
@Griwes because it is?
 
user1804599
Ugly it is indeed, because of the use of an unsafe function.
 
user1804599
In C++ pretty much all functions are unsafe, so PureScript is definitely better in that regard.
 
@rightfold I support that question. It's perfectly clear once you're not ignorant about the syntax
 
Ven
@rightfold is it really much harder to read than
template<row Eff, typename A>
Aff<eff, a>
liftEffPrime = compose(liftEff, unsafeCoerceEff);
or somesuch
 
user1804599
8:29 AM
Ugh, housewives with short snappy haircut warning you about phishing mails on Facebook.
 
YO WASSUP
 
Ven
@VermillionAzure hi
 
WHAT IS UP
@Ven what is that
 
Ven
the air
@VermillionAzure purrl
 
@Ven wouldn't of helped me much, It doesn't explain how to come up with the crack :P
 
8:33 AM
@Ven ah, as i suspected
perl is purrlllty fugly
but just kidding. But I hear it's hard to read ^
 
Hmm
Good morning
I'm having troubles understanding multimethods
 
@rightfold So have you heard of Liquid Types?
 
Ven
@Shoe hi
Liquid Types are watered-down dependent types really
 
This woman from UC SD just gave a presentation at my university about it maybe 2-3 weeks ago
@Ven How do you know?
 
Does anybody here know what they are?
 
Ven
8:35 AM
@Shoe we do
 
@Ven non-infix compose is gh
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz this! IS! C++!
 
Is it just pattern matching on ADTs constructors?
 
> Multiple dispatch or multimethods is a feature of some programming languages in which a function or method can be dynamically dispatched based on the run-time (dynamic) type or, in the more general case some other attribute, of more than one of its arguments
 
@Shoe multiple dispatch?
 
8:35 AM
@Ven well fuck it then
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, I've read wikipedia
 
oh fuck multiple dispatch
 
So it's not clear
 
8:36 AM
what's not clear?
 
55 secs ago, by Shoe
Is it just pattern matching on ADTs constructors?
 
ah yes, infix so awesome, infinite amount of cryptic operators so great, wow
 
@Shoe I don't believe so
@Griwes TBH the syntax isn't that bad if you're willing to make the leap
 
Ven
@Shoe no. It can be much more
 
@Griwes Don't open this can of worm right now. Just wait 5 minutes, please. :)
 
8:37 AM
@Griwes operators are just as "cryptic" as alphanumeric names.
3
 
@Ven But I don't understand the Lisp example. Is it overloading the collide-with function statically or what?
 
@Shoe For example, many generic functions in R for it's various OOP subsystems dispatch on the object that it's given. That's not necessarily a constructor
 
Ven
@Shoe exemple in Perl 6: multi sub a(Int where 1..10) {} multi sub a(Int) {}
@Shoe not statically, that's the point. It looks at the runtime type
 
@Ven When it has to dispatch, yes. I was talking about the function definition.
 
@Shoe Oh come on, let me troll the resident FP wanker
 
8:39 AM
yawn
 
@Griwes Brit detected
 
Egh my uni requires me to do some paperwork for the student internship or someshit
 
Ven
dat flag
 
I guess maybe an example of how it would work if it was implemented in C++ would help.
 
as if I wasn't working for like past 3 years
 
Ven
8:39 AM
@Shoe There's an open method paper
 
@Shoe there's a C++ example on Wikipedia
have you read it?
 
user1804599
@Shoe normal methods dispatch on the class of the this argument; multimethods dispatch on the class of multiple arguments
 
@BartekBanachewicz Have you read it? Because that shows how to simulate it with single method dispatch.
 
so what you're asking is how it could possibly, hypothetically be a part of the langugage?
 
@Shoe Uhhhhh
 
8:40 AM
I'm gonna plonk you for a while Bartek. Don't take it personally.
 
you're not reading what I'm writing
 
That might be because he plonked you
4
 
ITT Bartek doesn't understand how paperwork works
 
@Griwes it's meant to be the dumbest possible way, always
 
user1804599
@Shoe it's more like multi-parameter type classes
 
8:41 AM
fucking uni
 
@BartekBanachewicz You need to present a proof that you are actually working. What's weird about that?
 
no, it's not just that
 
And probably a report of what you've been doing.
 
@rightfold Yes, but I don't understand how you would define it. Because single method dispatch defines methods statically (like if you were to translate the special method syntax you would have the function be overloaded on the first argument, statically).
 
@Griwes yes that's one part I'm having a problem with
 
8:42 AM
Then when you call fn(obj) it would select fn with the dynamic type of the object.
 
setting aside that those things aren't exactly public
 
@BartekBanachewicz ...lolwut
 
it's dumb
 
Just write a vague description of what you've been doing. lol
kek
 
Not sure if that's enough here
 
8:43 AM
Man, according to this, Hillary is even worse than I thought.
 
It's how it works everywhere.
 
user1804599
void f(virtual fruit& a, virtual fruit& b);
void f(apple& a, pear& b) { ... }
void f(orange& a, pear& b) { ... }
void f(tomato& a, corn& b) { ... }
 
Get a grasp on reality man.
 
Ven
@Shoe if you define void foo(Parent*); void foo(Child*);
 
fuck's sake
What the fuck happens here when I'm not around
 
Ven
8:43 AM
@Shoe But call void((Parent*)new Child());, it'll use the Parent overload.
 
user1804599
@Shoe see the example above.
 
I'm telling you in plain english what the situation is and your response is "no it's not"?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Bad things Bartek
Also, Bartek, you've been chill lately. How's life?
 
@BartekBanachewicz You're not sure a vague description is enough?
 
user1804599
The virtual keyword makes sure that the overload resolution happens at runtime.
 
8:44 AM
@Griwes not for some types of this thing
 
@Griwes Multiple dispatch is simply dispatch to multiple possible end points
 
they've changed the rules yet again this year
 
"I've been writing software using <language X, Y, and Z>, and also doing some devops things with <software X, Y, Z>."
 
@rightfold Ok, and that assumes of course that apple, pear, ... are all children of fruit right?
 
prolly just to make it more confusing for everyone
 
8:44 AM
Blow this out to take 1.5 pages.
Done.
 
@Shoe Yes
 
@Griwes last year Intel had to send their lawyer to my uni to make sure all of the interns there get it done
 
This is an uni, nobody's going to thoroughly read it.
 
user1804599
@Shoe they are derived classes yes
 
it's still fucked up
 
8:45 AM
@Shoe In essence, C++ polymorphic function calls with virtual member function overloading is a subset of multiple dispatch
 
The thing that's fucked up is your approach to everything.
 
Ven
@VermillionAzure In essence, C++ does object slicing.
 
I am not discussing my approach
I just told you the process is dumb
 
Poor objects
 
Ven
sub string_ref
{
    my $self = shift;
    return *$self->{buf};
}
*sref = \&string_ref;
 
8:46 AM
I don't care about your opinion about my approach
 
Ven
WTF is this :( # cc @rightfold
 
That's the attitude of yours that I'm talking baout.
 
I don't care how the process looks on your uni
 
@Ven wtf is that
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't care about your opinion about the process.
 
8:46 AM
Oh my god they have points in Perl wtf
 
You're just whining that you have to do some paperwork. lol
 
@Griwes cool.
 
Ven
points?
 
thanks for letting me know
@Griwes wow you finally got it
 
Ok, I guess the main problem I have is with the common lisp example.
 
8:47 AM
Newsflash: that's how life works, you do a lot of paperwork or else that you don't want to do.
 
Common lisp is functional
 
took you a while
 
Ven
@Shoe common list = global = bad. :P
 
So stop whining about things that are a part of how the world works.
 
user1804599
@Ven * is a type glob, it probably means named file descriptor
 
8:47 AM
@Griwes maybe that's how your life works
 
Ven
@Shoe NONONONONONOONO
Common Lisp is NOT functional. At all.
 
stop extrapolating your shitty life to everyone
 
Are you gonna whine that you have to sign a contract to get paid, too?
 
@BartekBanachewicz kek
 
8:47 AM
I for one am not used to wasting my time on that crap
 
Ven
@rightfold I know what it is – I'm just wondering why people write such terrible code
 
from what I'm hearing
 
user1804599
Griwes Bartek please move discussion to other room.
 
and it's absolutely abnormal
 
it's you who's having shitty life
if writing a short report is a thing that annoys you :D
 
Ven
8:48 AM
@GundolfGundelfinger and you didn't even start it!
 
no, I'm having an abnormal situation introduced by my uni
 
@Griwes Haven't you ever done the, "let's bitch about common things to find common ground" smalltalk?
 
@Ven Oh
 
@Griwes duh? because I don't have to do those things in general?
 
kek
 
8:48 AM
It wouldn't annoy me if I was used to that crap, would it?
 
It's a normal situation and everybody else realizes that.
 
Ven
@Shoe uses mutation everywhere and all. It's pretty imperative.
 
Bad news guys: if on Monday morning you don't have anything better to do than arguing about paperwork, I believe both of your lives suck
 
@Griwes I guess not eating is normal for poor kids in Africa
 
Like, usually the internship things are graded.
 
8:49 AM
@Ven Ok, but it doesn't have hierarchies of types, right?
 
@Ven Curious -- I thought Lisp was functional in nature?
 
I guess being bombarded is normal for people who live in the middle east
 
Are they supposed to grade it just for having a work contract?
 
(btw I have paperwork to write goddamnit)
 
user1804599
Common Lisp has only one type.
 
Ven
8:49 AM
@VermillionAzure you're wrong
 
Or is Lisp just a good syntax to encapsulate a functional language?
 
@AndyProwl :D
 
@rightfold The Any type?
or bottom
 
@LucDanton And it's composed by that young woman you mentioned a couple days back, right? I haven't listened to most of the OST. I guess I should.
 
Ven
@Shoe You mean inheritance? It does have that.
 
8:50 AM
Ah yes, because writing a 2 page report for an uni is as bad as starving to death or having bombs dropped on you.
 
@Ven Can multimethods only work with inheritance?
 
@GundolfGundelfinger What's HoT?
 
@Griwes it is if your baseline is lower
 
user1804599
@Shoe all terms have the same type
 
@Shoe No.
 
user1804599
8:50 AM
not bottom, because bottom is not inhabited
 
then top
 
Baselining is a method for analyzing computer network performance. The method is marked by comparing current performance to a historical metric, or "baseline". For example, if you measured the performance of a network switch over a period of time, you could use that performance figure as a comparative baseline if you made a configuration change to the switch. == Uses == Baselining is useful for many performance management tasks, including: Monitoring daily network performance Measuring trends in network performance Assessing whether network performance is meeting requirements laid out in a service...
 
Ven
@Shoe Common Lisp has a MOP, so you can swap the object model to not have inheritance (there are implementations of the JS object model). But the one that comes with CL (in the standard) has inheritance.
 
go have a read
 
@BartekBanachewicz cool, I'll remember not to unplonk you this time
 
8:51 AM
finally
 
@Shoe Multiple dispatch is basically branching based on type at runtime, if I'm not mistaken.
 
once and for all
sigh
 
Ven
@Shoe you could have other style, like constrained multimethods, the example I showed earlier
 
@BartekBanachewicz Is that what you did in your internship?
 
Yes, how can you have a different type at runtime without casts or inheritance?
 
8:52 AM
@VermillionAzure eh, the 2nd failed exam attempt was shitty
 
@Shoe Because you could be using something like std::optional or std::variant
 
@VermillionAzure Well, I'm not an intern, but yes, it's a part of it.
 
@Ven But isn't that possible just with dependent types?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Oh, my bad. But that seems cool
 
Ven
14 mins ago, by Ven
@Shoe exemple in Perl 6: multi sub a(Int where 1..10) {} multi sub a(Int) {}
 
8:52 AM
Our company technically does "Digital Performance Management"
 
@VermillionAzure That's pattern matching on ADTs
 
Ven
@Shoe of course not. The idea is to do it at runtime
 
@Griwes Can't believe he said this.
 
@VermillionAzure I'd say it's as cool as a system you're looking at is.
 
@BartekBanachewicz :thumbs_up:
 
8:53 AM
@Bartek you know what, I think I'm gonna pass on the beer you owe me for that one Haskell thing, because I don't want beer from someone who thinks that writing a report is as bad as living in a warzone.
8
 
@BartekBanachewicz Btw... what do you think about the experience working at Intel?
 
@Ven Don't dependent types bring types into the runtime system?
 
watching boring stuff is boring. Watching mainframes or big datacenters can be amazing, I guess
 
(Don't bother replying, you're plonked already.)
 
Like you would have Int[1..10] as the type of the argument
 
8:53 AM
@VermillionAzure Mmm, I dunno
 
Ven
@Shoe no, they bring values into the compile-time system
 
@Shoe Not necessarily.
 
@BartekBanachewicz ...can neither confirm nor deny?
 
Well, it's been nice overall, right.
 
Ven
@Shoe If you use only types, then you're back to C++-style overloads
 
8:54 AM
Like, C++ is dependently typed in a way.
 
@Ven But I remember an Agda example where they had the type as a runtime argument to a function. Mmmm
 
But it was also really corporate-heavy
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm in applying-to-internships mode and I haven't gotten a call back but I think I should try for Intel
 
they hire a lot of people here at least
I'm pretty sure you'd make it into the site in Gdańsk
 
Ven
@Shoe not runtime. The function ran at compile time.
 
8:55 AM
 
I guess it depends on what you want from your internship
 
@Griwes Last week I had an argument with someone who complained about his employer requiring him to mail his sick notice within <whatever the legal required number of days is> days of the start of the sick period.
 
Ven
@Shoe yes?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I want to get hard technical experience
@BartekBanachewicz My last one was okay but I barely touched programming or systems
 
@VermillionAzure That you'd get aplenty
 
8:56 AM
@Ven The first argument of identity is passed at runtime
And it's a type / Set
 
@BartekBanachewicz I guess I just want to cry about how I get no responses...
 
Interns do pretty much the same work as regulars here, really
 
@Ven Well, I'm pretty sure you can extrapolate all that to runtime values, if you don't do anything static with the value (like, you could encode the length of a vector in its type, make it immutable, and then, using pre- and post-conditions, check the invariants on runtime values).
 
Such a terrible employer, imposing unreasonable demands on their peaceful life.
 
I'd say the biggest difference is the paycheck and expectations
 
Ven
8:56 AM
@Griwes that's very different. You don't run agda programs, it's useless.
Once they compiled, you have what you need(ed)
 
(Granted, PayPal is a terrible employer, but not for requiring you to give them notice of your absence)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
 
Granted you can argue this is more "contracts" and less "dependent typing", but I'd argue that to a degree they are isomorphic.
What is a type if not a set of invariants?
 
user1804599
A lamp.
 
Ven
@Griwes A statically-available information.
 
8:57 AM
(Even things like type(2) or whatever are invariants: "the value of this type is either 0 or 1".)
 
user1804599
A lifebuoy.
 
@Ven How is that different from invariants? :)
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
 
user1804599
You may have different types with the same invariants, and it's useful for them to be different types.
 
Ven
typefor : String -> Set
typefor "int" = Nat
typefor _ = String

getFor : (a : String) -> typefor a
getFor "Int" = 3
getFor _ = "default value"
 
@Griwes Types are more like abstract objects that are representative of a set of values for which all items satisfy the invariants, yes.
 
8:58 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes what's the "sick notice" mean though? Is it just "I'm sick bb later" or a formal thing of sorts?
 
Ven
@Griwes you don't know if your value has those properties at compile-time :)
 
user1804599
@Ven parametricity called they want their free theorems back
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz Likely the official doctor's note.
 
Ven
@rightfold ssshhh it's all about special cases :P
 
@BartekBanachewicz The thing you get from the doctor.
 
8:59 AM
@rightfold Sure. So the answer to what I asked is basically "Invariants and identity." :D
 

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