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12:14 AM
ARGHH Internet is not producing answers. Fuck this.
 
what u lookin for
 
@Prismatic answers, dammit! :p
@Prismatic What bugs me most is that you can't do much while they're busy indexing
 
@Prismatic A complete list of the rules for conjugating verbs in Hebrew (or at least for the very specific class of verbs that I am currently studying).
 
import @MadaraUchiha;
 
Found another missing C++14 feature in VC++! This is like minesweeper on high difficulty :p
 
12:20 AM
Which one?
 
rofl
 
@Morwenn the one that allows NSDMIs in structs without making those structs non-aggregates
 
@melak47 NSDMIs?
 
non static data member initializers
 
^that
 
12:21 AM
struct bla{ int x = 1; };
 
oh, those only work for ints right?
 
I never remember which standard changes what wrt aggregates.
@Borgleader No.
 
@Borgleader I believe "all literal types", so constexpr galore :D
 
Ell
@melak47 huh I didn't realise that was c++14
 
12:22 AM
@Madara Hope I'm not getting too annoying. New question. Consider בנין פעל, גזרה ע"ו, infinitive (and future shares the same ambiguity). What I've found says "just add -לָ", but doesn't say how to determine what the vav becomes. Some verbs get a שורוק, some a חולם. Is this a per-verb setting or am I missing another rule?
 
@Ell just the aggregate bit
struct test {
	int x, y = -1;
};
test t{ 1 }; //only works with C++14
 
In today's news I have found yet another new sorting algorithm and it sucks.
 
Ell
Oh I see
 
What was that commercial for some bug tracker/sth, where the dev fixes one bug, then gets spammed with more and more bugs?
 
12:26 AM
@TemplateRex that calls for with then
 
@Morwenn #progress
 
@Borgleader Well, yeah. I copied it straight from a research paper. It claims to be better than smoothsort and equivalent/better than heapsort but my implementation is worse than both.
 
@melak47 but without assignment y = -1 it works in c++11?
strange behavior
 
@Morwenn Claims to be better in what way?
 
@JerryCoffin Faster.
 
12:28 AM
@Morwenn so is it the algorithm or the implementation that sucks? :P
 
@Borgleader Either one or both.
 
@Morwenn go debunk their paper :)
 
@melak47 Let me understand the algorithm first.
 
@Madara I guess it's like אפעל/אפעול, where you need to learn it with the verb.
 
@Morwenn Nearly meaningless without further qualification. Paper may not say, but the obvious question is whether it reduces the number of comparisons, moves/swaps/copies, or both.
 
12:33 AM
What kind of weird boost version (1.55) does debian jessie have... it does not have try_lexical_convert O_o
 
@JerryCoffin Not really, the claim was about being actually not better than smoothsort from a CS point of view but being generally faster in real-world cases while being almost as fast as smoothsort when the collection is almost sorted.
 
@Gizmo Are you looking for try_lexical_cast?
 
but yes, 1.56 has it, I wish debian had a faster cycle
yeah that
Now I have to figure out how to install boost from source :P
 
bootstrap && b2 :p
 
oh if it's that easy.. well thanks!
 
12:36 AM
dunno about installing the headers and libs, but that builds stuff for you
 
@Morwenn Okay, but you still have to reduce something to make it faster (though if they're talking practical speed, there's a much greater chance they don't specify what). I guess it wouldn't surprise me a lot if their claims were based on comparison to some crippled implementation of the competition (certainly wouldn't be the first time).
 
well I can always just cp the headers to /usr/include/boost
 
@Morwenn just curious what the fastest sorting algorithm?
 
@JerryCoffin The conclusion is based on benchmarks. The only proofs in the paper show that the algorithm is O(n log n) worst case.
@SashaMN Depends on too many things.
 
@SashaMN memset to 0
 
12:38 AM
@Morwenn I know radix sort the fastest, but it only works for numbers
 
@SashaMN Depends on too many things still. And there are several different radix sorts.
 
The question is can we beat IntroSort or not)
 
Yes.
 
Example?
 
12:39 AM
Ugh, sorting is hard
 
@Morwenn I've said it before, but: "Never trust a benchmark you didn't falsify yourself."
 
@JerryCoffin I can try to improve the algorithm but I have to at least partly understand it first and I doubt I am able to improve it that much :/
 
Also, I tried researching sorting algos a few months ago and to my surprise the 'sorting field' is quite 'deadlocked' (dunno how to call it) for the past ~30 years? No new inventions or anything...
 
I know also that in-place merge sort can be up to 30% faster then quick sort, but not testing...
 
@Gizmo Just look at the link I shared a few messages above.
 
12:42 AM
pdqsort, okay, let's check it out
 
@Gizmo Actually, introsort is quite well known, and was invented ~15 years ago (though it is a hybrid of existing algorithms). pdqsort is quite new (and not yet well known outside the lounge), but looks pretty solid so far. Much like introsort, it's unlikel to be a lot faster than quicksort under optimal conditions, but does a good job of avoiding worst case behavior with minimal overhead.
 
Do you think red cross can wheel in enough medical to treat those BURN wounds?
 
@JerryCoffin If I only knew them a month ago I could've extensively tested them :) Ah well hopefully will find a few free hours while compiling boost :D
 
@Gizmo For better or worse, Boost shouldn't take quite that long to compile.
 
The faster it compiles the faster I can go on with my homework :)
 
12:45 AM
Also Boost has a sorting algorithm faster than radix sort for integers.
 
Boost overall is very impressive, never let me down, though the learning curve for not-used-before libraries can be so steep that for quick-fix-code-sessions I switch to something different when I encounter such a library
(I'm still far from perfect with asio, for example)
That sort does indeed look very familiar but also different, so hey, something new :P Thanks for the link. Maybe will try it out soon
 
I think its possible to beat this pdqsort
 
If I can find my previous assignment in my archive...
 
Maybe ill try
 
@SashaMN Link me when done :)
 
12:54 AM
I don't understand why all deque implementations seem unable to cope with ... double ended queues. I'll probably bounty this question to see if some can come up with an explanation. — sehe 7 secs ago
 
@Gizmo Ok
@sehe @sehe do you know how std::vector actually implemented?
in gcc for example
 
@sehe all deque implementations seem unable to cope with ... double ended queues uh...... i thought deque was double ended queue o.o
 
when I tried to have a look, i found protected inheritance
 
@SashaMN Yes. You too can just see it. The complexity is with allocators and standards conformance
 
and closed this sources
 
12:57 AM
@Borgleader That's exactly why I don't understand. It's not really like they're abusing it or something
 
@sehe The question is about how memory allocation/free strategy works
for example if we have {1, 2, 3, 4} vector and trying to push_back 5
 
It's much easier to get that info from the standard than from "looking" at an implementation.
 
we maybe need to allocate new memory and copy theese values
ok. we have {1, 2, 3, 4, 5} vector now and some free space
 
@SashaMN It will see whether capacity suffices. If not, it reallocates to a size that leads to amortized constant time (that's in the standard).
 
Is... that what a deque is?
 
12:59 AM
@sehe I know
 
@ThePhD Arrows, buddy. Sasha is talking about vector
 
@sehe Suppose now, you decide to pop_back()
 
Supposing...
 
Now you have a lot of free memory
But you can't free it
 
shrink_to_fit (or the swap trick)
 
1:00 AM
stop
 
?
 
if you free this memory
whey you push_back(5) again
you will have to copy again
 
yes.
 
thats why you have to wait
 
That's what all programs have always been doing, but manually.
@SashaMN Not per se.
 
1:00 AM
but how long implementation std::vector will wait
 
It might not be noticeable
 
while im doing pop_back()?
 
@SashaMN It doesn't wait.
 
untill it actually free() this memory?
 
@SashaMN It certainly doesn't wait in pop_back
@SashaMN It doesn't wait. Memory is never free-ed unless:
1 min ago, by sehe
shrink_to_fit (or the swap trick)
 
1:01 AM
@sehe thats bad
 
Next time, instead of yelling stop and babbling a lot, google the words.
 
@SashaMN Once vector allocates a particular size of block, it can't shrink it (ever) short of using shrink_to_fit or the swap trick.
 
@SashaMN Prove it
 
@sehe But shrink_to_fit() only since c++11 right?
 
It's a fact. It's only bad if you're not aware and using vectors strangely
 
1:02 AM
what to do in c+98 then?
 
@SashaMN Yes. So, swap trick
READ THE FRIGGIN' MESSAGES
 
Don't do C++98. It will solve many problems at once.
 
Why do we have to answer the same question 5 times over
Within 3 minutes. I hate that
If you can't be bothered to think before asking again, I'll mentally label you "Cinch³" and ignore
2
 
@jaggedSpire bam
 
@Borgleader People are weird :)
 
1:06 AM
@Borgleader The tiny peanus :D
 
38 secs ago, by sehe
@Borgleader People are weird :)
 
Also, just saw the save game self-destruct. ouch. :D
The notifications are dumb-dumb on this thing. :(
Have to go all the way to chat.so, instead of directly to the Lounge
 
Going to watch Totoro. See you Totomorrow.
 
@Morwenn ttyl
 
> well, its a perception grounded on experience. I proposed a presentation at CPPCon 2015 on this library and it was rejected by a strong consensus of reviewers on the basis that it wasn't an interesting subject. The talk I did give on a related subject - Using Boost Units to write correct code - had 5 attendees. I posted to the appropriate C++ Standard Library list and it generated on comment.
 
Ell
1:31 AM
What is safe_int?
 
it represents a safe_int
It's like an int, but safe.
 
Ell
As in grows on overflow?
 
Like they have a built-in try-catch block for each operation.
 
Ell
Oh I see
 
@Ell Ah, that would make sense. But I don't think so.
 
Ell
1:40 AM
Hmm yeah I just remembered they're called big ints
 
Binary search on an array of size 2 to the billionth is actually slow. I feel betrayed by academics.
 
Ell
2to the billion is a lot
 
user406009
How would you ever even sort such a monstrosity?
 
lol 2 to the billion
 
@StackedCrooked It's slow because it takes a long time to download that much RAM. You obviously need a faster internet connection.
3
 
1:49 AM
I should talk to my boss about that.
 
@JerryCoffin can I download a better internet connection?
 
@StackedCrooked That seems needlessly slow =/
 
@jaggedSpire If you have enough RAM
 
@sehe oh man I'd better start downloading more RAM right away then if I want to up my download speeds to where I want them inside of the week
 
I just got home from being at my friend's house trying to bot at a game (solve captchas).
Fuckin' OCR ughhhh.
Almost got it to work but then Arduino's Serial bullshit.
 
2:02 AM
 
@Borgleader How was your day?
 
@jaggedSpire it just got better
I sent a 55-gallon drum of personal lubricant to the Oregon Militia https://t.co/qIKp8Ucl2K
top kek
 
indeed
 
bed time now though
 
@Borgleader night
 
2:08 AM
@Borgleader That's dedication.
 
This is still my favorite tweeter account: twitter.com/internetofshit
 
@Borgleader Nighty night.
> XNA Game Studio
There's shit I never thought I'd have to see again.
 
2:26 AM
So, finally installing VS2015.
I had been running VS2013 up until now.
 
have fun
 
Ell
Why do people hate on that militia?
 
I do like VS2015 better than VS2013, but that's sort of like saying I prefer it to being slapped in the face repeatedly with a herring.
 
@jaggedSpire The simile is not complete. VS2015 is getting hit a herring, VS2013 is getting hit in the face with a kodiak bear?
 
@Nican well, I was trying to say VS2013 is getting hit in the face with a herring, but I'm not sure yet what VS2015 is like. I've not used it for long enough to really ...savor... its compiler
and I'm probably going to be mostly doing C# at work where I use VS2015 for the next while, too, so I won't get the full benefit of VC++ either. :\
It's sad, because I need something to become extremely angry at every once in a while and now I might have lost that.
 
2:35 AM
Can I ask a quick c# EF question in here without getting killed?
 
Ell
You can but everyone is asleep
 
isn't there a C# room
I should probably start lurking there, actually
 
@EtiennedeMartel s/running/crashing/
 
hehe
 
wow
g++ without -O2 I get undefined reference error
with -O2 g++ eliminates deadly code and no undefined reference error
 
2:37 AM
@Michael You can ask. Not sure if it is going to get answered.
 
> deadly
hehe
 
it checks my if statement
and not generate an error
 
I can't for the life of me find a good example of where to use the dbcontext in a simple Windows app. It probably should be in the UI code behind.
 
g++ smarter than me
 
Shouldn't be*
 
2:39 AM
"Music for your vagina" yep.
I've browsed too much internet today.
 
@Michael In ASP.Net it is injected to controllers.
 
@MarkGarcia but for win forms
 
@jaggedSpire "benefit" what is even.
 
fin worms
 
Exactly lol
 
2:41 AM
@ThePhD VS2013 is an excellent target for all my anger and hatred. ^_^
 
@jaggedSpire Good enough, I guess.
 
it deserves whatever suffering I bring it.
 
L... Let's not get vindictive now...
 
2:57 AM
Time for bed, have to wake up in 5 hours. You guys enjoy the delicious tears of question dumpers.
 
user406009
@ElimGarak You actually sleep?
 
user406009
My idol, shattered.
 
user406009
Good night.
 
@ThePhD but it's non-sentient! It's perfect for my vengeful tendencies!
I don't have to feel guilty at all as I watch it tear its pitiful self apart in agony
and metaphorically explodes into metaphorical flames
before granting that most delicious of failures, that tearful admission of utter inadequacy, the ICE.
 
user406009
Someone clearly should bring an MSVC pinata to the inconvenience.
 
3:09 AM
the fringe is the irritating part to make and apply IIRC from my one experience making a pinata
more than a decade ago
shit, did I make a pinata, or did I just mentally ask myself if I ever made one, and then decide that I had?
I think so. It's one of those things that would have happened.
yes! yes I did.
I remember putting a hole in it to stuff it with candy
ITT jagged has a conversation with herself
what kind of candy would you put in a VC2013 pinata?
I bet those hard liquor sampler bottles are in plastic so they're difficult to break.
I think those, and also the most underwhelming of candies. Because MSVC2013 gives you underwhelming features, compared with the drinking problems you now face due to the difficulty of dealing with it.
 
user406009
You fill it with ice of course.
 
@Lalaland lol
 
user406009
That would be rather painful though.
 
coke and mentos, because one part is okay, but when combined with the other it explodes in a pile of shit
bonus points for the shaking that would have happened while the pinata was dying
 
user406009
@jaggedSpire aren't they working on allowing compilation with clang?
 
3:18 AM
@Lalaland delicious, delicious clang. But it's going to be a while before it's reliable, I bet.
and mostly I'm directing my wrath towards MSVC2013, because 2015 hasn't mentally scarred me yet.
it will, but it hasn't yet.
 
user406009
Still a ways to go.
 
@Lalaland was referring to the mental scarring, but I actually think I saw the early version on the install options list for MSVC2015.
 
user406009
And then you have to wait for it to stabilize.
 
I couldn't because open source software and my company go together like oil and water right now, and also the stability issues are probably hell in a handbasket right now, but some day. some day...
some day I will be free of VC++
 
user406009
3:24 AM
Even using open source software?
 
user406009
I can understand companies avoiding GPL and stuff.
 
and on the day I become free of VC++, I will say "jagged is a free dev!" and then make like Dobby and...cry? I don't actually remember what he did after saying he was free.
@Lalaland for code gen in production code, yes. I'm actually allowed to use open source tools so long as they're for double checking things like the correctness of my code, and I have GCC on Mingw64 on my work computer for easier C++ correctness checking, actually. But I can't use it for code gen, and since the clang-MSVC cooperation stuff is still in its infancy, it won't be too great for that, I think.
s/code gen/generating binaries for release and depending on the product
what I'm working on in C++ is ideally supposed to be platform independent, so I can get away with saying "I want to check that the predominant compiler on this other system actually likes this code and thinks it legal, because it might not actually like it because VC++ is a pile of baloney"
that said, it's not actually enough of a concern yet that they've given me access to another computer for testing on macs
I've spent the last year or so pushing investigation into open source stuff so that I can get an actual ruling on whether or not I'll ever be able to use Boost.
 
user406009
Maybe they are just worried about support contact type things?
 
user406009
Do any companies provide paid boost support?
 
So far, it's slowly progressing, but it is progressing. The platform-independence requirement/nice-to-have was introduced in the last year, but I was sticking to pure c++ before because I wanted the solutions to my problems easily discovered, and figured pure C++ would have the best stuff for that.
@Lalaland I actually don't know. They're concerned about compromising their intellectual property rights, mostly, and they're a small company so they don't just have a lawyer to throw at the problem. They've got one to hire, and they are doing that now, but for a while it was "we have no idea what we need to do to protect ourselves and while yes the Boost license does seem to be in clear english we can't just trust what it says."
it's understandable, just frustrating.
 
4:36 AM
Holy mother of walltexts
 
tl;dr: rant about MSVC2013 turns into blathering about the use of open source software in my company
apologies
 
 
1 hour later…
6:00 AM
*chirrup* *chirrup*
Good night empty room.
oh neat I'm at 10.9k all time messages for this room.
a whole 27th of Robot's messages
 
=( my implementation of sorting algorithm works 2.5 times slower than std::sort()...
 
Hi everybody.
3x^2 = (l-x)^2 gave answer x = -1.37 how?
x = -1.37l
 
@MuhammadRaza you should ask on math.stackexchange.com instead.
 
@edition Sir, no body online.
 
6:30 AM
19
Q: Is there an equivalent term to "Cold Turkey" for starting something instead of quitting something?

DraiCold Turkey is an idiom most commonly used when quitting something that is very difficult, like smoking or drugs all at once instead of gradually. Can you also start something "Cold Turkey" or is there another idiom that would be better? Replace the term in the following sentence. The obese ...

somehow 'going in balls deep' hasn't been mentioned yet
 
6:48 AM
Explosion, thunder, bomb
 
7:32 AM
morning
 
Xeo
7:43 AM
@MuhammadRaza Sir, we don't care.
 
> 08:44:53 up 13 days, 11:16, 4 users, load average: 0,39, 0,30, 0,32
Time to reboot my desktop
For a change
@TelkittytheWebDeveloper Please. Put a little bit of care into getting your message across. We do have twitter. Or fb. Or imgur. Or CNN. Or whatever. You claim 88% of vertical screenspace and can... almost muster the energy to type up three words...
@Ell Did you really ask that?
 
whats up polar bear
you feeling chilly tonight
because i'm feeling coool
wags shaggily like polar bear
 
Polar bears too lazy to wag
 
they bear-ly
 
7:59 AM
btw i just discovered the romanian folk dances
 

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