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4:00 PM
> Whereas the underlying POSIX socket operation takes 3 parameters, this library encodes this information in the type variables
oooooh
this is such a good design decision
-- Register a finalizer on the new socket.
_ <- mkWeakMVar mft (close (Socket mft `asTypeOf` s))
herp derp
 
ITT Bartek enjoying life fully
 
Look at that:
Interesting Initiave: GraphicalDebugging for Visual Studio 2015 #cpp #geometry via #boost mailing list http://lists.boost.org/Archives/boost/2015/09/225577.php Let's see!
 
posix sockets are fascinating
not
 
hmm SCTP
 
^ the author is Adam Wulkiewicz. I hold him in quite high regards. I think I know him from Boost Geometry libs
 
4:06 PM
@sehe awesome
 
@sehe pretty cool
> I'm a Boost.Geometry
developer so in the future I plan to support all of the coordinate
systems supported by the library
 
I don't know what exactly it promises, but
1. it has tangible stuff
2. he's a good coder
 
@sehe Sexy.
 
The screenshots are very promising
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, that's a gimmick right there, but you know, if he can pull that off just because he can, I don't mind
 
4:07 PM
I'm going to write such visualization for source code someday
I'm still not ready to accept that robot and cat were right though
 
@Mr.kbok It's focusing a little much on geometry types. Still, cool stuff
@BartekBanachewicz I think that could be useful too. Or, a kind of "auto/locals" debug window but with "stack layout" of sorts?
 
@sehe I was thinking about static information mostly
debuggers are hard to write
at least for compiled languages
 
Plotting functionality would be great for us.
I.e. grab a huge array of data and plot it on some graph.
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva money shot
 
Or looking at pixel data.
 
4:10 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes VS can do that with DirectX data already
for opengl you obviously need NSight
 
@BartekBanachewicz I mean any data. Just random arrays.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think his proposal welcomes this and it's close to the core already
> Polygon's voronoi diagram and internals, Math's
quaternions as 3D Axis-Angle, std::complex as a point on a plane,
containers of complex numbers and in general arbitrary types represented
somehow as a 1D, 2D or 3D objects, CircularBuffer e.g. as a pie chart,
BGL's graphs, maybe GIL's images, Interprocess' shared memory blocks?,
etc. So feel free to share suggestions and contribute if you like.
 
Sometimes we just output the data by hand and load it in Matlab for visualisation :S
I found and fixed a few bugs that way already.
 
^ I do that too. Except, I use inferior tools (gnuplot, openoffice Calc etc)
 
@BartekBanachewicz But yeah, looking at GPU structures is also quite useful.
The .NET debugger supports this stuff rather easily, I found.
Never investigated the C++ one.
Probably just flat doesn't.
 
4:13 PM
I'm kinda tempted to try HaskellForMac
but $24.99
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I like this.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's just a vector of ints. You could use it right away.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes wooo neat
 
@BartekBanachewicz Use what?
 
4:15 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes the visualizer?
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva
 
If nothing else, read this piece about staying happy at work for this: https://source.opennews.org/en-US/articles/surviving-news-business/ http://t.co/F1COoCcUzb
 
@Mr.kbok good job
 
@BartekBanachewicz Not sure what you mean. I could use what he wrote, or this was already in VS?
 
@BartekBanachewicz ... wat
 
4:17 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes you could use what he wrote?
not even 1k rep
noob.
 
@BartekBanachewicz :(
 
@BartekBanachewicz About?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ binary AST as main storage for source
 
@BartekBanachewicz you haven't seen his answers
 
@BartekBanachewicz I agree with you on this one
 
4:20 PM
@BartekBanachewicz What kind of source?
 
source code, store as AST, not text
 
During compilation? Are we talking about GLSL? Are we talking about any language? Why do you have to store a "source"? What's the context?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ program source
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ yes, but not only. Not only. Yes. Because that's what you edit, not run. Tabs vs spaces.
 
Tabs. Flame war in...
 
4:24 PM
This still leaves me with the question: which of your both-brilliant answers should I accept? — Bogdan Willi 3 mins ago
hehehe
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ neither
 
And with a blazing 2-0, tabs win the final tabs vs spaces war.
 
both tabs and spaces are retarded
 
cheering and applauses
 
technology to move text horizontally without the need to resort to special "invisible" characters has been here for quite some time
we're past the fucking CLI screen era
 
4:26 PM
I can totally see that
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ so robot's and cat's point is that we don't need binary AST storage to make this happen
 
How would you, as a programmer, edit such binary-AST-stored "source"?
 
Also why binary? Why not allow ternary and quaternary as well?
 
4:28 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ how do you, as a programmer, edit ASCII-text stored "source"?
 
With a text editor that supports both tabs and spaces
 
so with a use of a program
incidentally that's also the answer to your question
 
What would the program look like?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ lol
 
depends on your needs. I can see a lot of different programs that would allow you to operate on the source.
 
4:30 PM
Such as?
 
I'm thinking about making one
 
Why does System.in.read() block forever, even after I repeatedly entered characters and pressed enter
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ well, for example, an architect could use shapes representing key system parts without the need to see implementation details
 
isn't it line-based
 
user1804599
I want to make programs.
 
4:31 PM
What?
 
a programmer might want functions enclosed in some blocks, that would allow text-based or some other representation
 
user1804599
@Columbo check whether it returns -1 to indicate EOF.
 
What other representations?
 
@elyse You're asking for ideas like once to three/four times a day :p
 
user1804599
4:31 PM
yes
 
user1804599
because I'm out of them
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ for example comments could be bubbles displayed on the side
 
@elyse lol, if read() blocks, try checking the return value
 
user1804599
@Mr.kbok :p
 
4:32 PM
also information from the issue tracking could be displayed directly there
 
@elyse Get perfectionnist and actually finish what you've started.
 
VS has been doing that for some time already
 
user1804599
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's boring.
 
@elyse linux doesn't boot? post uname -a
 
Yes, so what's new?
 
user1804599
4:32 PM
I want to rewrite my compiler since it's a mess.
 
Visual Studio probably already stores your source in AST format as well
 
@elyse Make a program useful for someone else.
 
You know, for context sensitive autocompletion and all
 
user1804599
@Mr.kbok yes, my compiler
 
Xeo
4:33 PM
@BartekBanachewicz What is that, a picture for ants?
 
@elyse Not for a programmer then
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ we're still using shitty text as baseline and people with bad editors rely on text formatting
 
user1804599
:( no
 
user1804599
boring
 
user1804599
fuck non-programmers
 
4:33 PM
and then people complain that for example spaces are used for indentation
where in reality it doesn't fucking matter in the slightest
 
Also comments as "text bubbles" are really not needed
Comments are a non issue
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I have a comment in the source that has 80 lines here.
 
a few-line comments in the source obstruct readability a lot
I'd like to be able to move them to the side
 
Write a plugin that collapses the text
 
4:35 PM
that's not nearly enough
 
You are gonna display the comment anyway, for how long it is
 
I want visual representation separate from text
text is way too dumb to represent source information.
 
The only thing different is whether you show it in a "bubble" or not
 
It's been abused for years with stuff hidden in comments and the like
 
@BartekBanachewicz Why?
 
4:36 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ yes we're talking about visualization in case you didn't notice
 
So we are still going to use that "dumb text" to write sources?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ because you can't just take text and blob it onto the screen. That's a source of all kinds of problems.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ well, with robot and cat's plan - yea. I'd like to move away from ASCII personally.
 
both approaches allow to get rid of particular display style
 
4:37 PM
21
A: C headers in C++

T.C.<cmeow> always provides ::std::purr and may or may not provide ::purr. <meow.h> always provides ::purr and may or may not provide ::std::purr. Use the form that is guaranteed to be provided by the header you include.

 
and I agree that's the actual problem, not the storage
 
is T.C. STL ? :D
 
The problem is ASCII vs Unicode or text in general? Also you are saying "yea" to still using text? I'm so confused.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ you should go back to chat archives and read the original discussion
no point in me repeating it word for word
 
@BartekBanachewicz Nice pun, but what problems are you referring to?
 
4:38 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Erm. Their compiler doesn't, even. That's one hell of an assumption (did you mean "Intellisense"? Yes it does build ASTs. But for the "CodeDom" it's likely hardly more than tokenizing
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ tabs vs spaces is one of them.
long comments. Comment annotations.
big arrays of data
 
Tabs vs spaces is bikeshedding
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ you're still not getting it
 
it's not about preferring one or the other. It's about not having to choose
 
4:40 PM
So, are you still going to write text as source?
@BartekBanachewicz I'd rather have a back and forth with you if you don't mind
 
"indenting with tabs" and "indenting with spaces" are both a solution to a problem "which whitespace character do i use to make the code visually different", which shouldn't even exist in the first place
 
You know, for the sake of talking it with someone
Given that this is a chat
 
@elyse Nevermind, the error was for (int i = -1; i <= 1; ++j)
:P
 
Which is a big assumption at this point
@BartekBanachewicz Ok, what are you proposing?
In its place
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Let me reassure you that this is a chat
 
user1804599
4:41 PM
@Columbo use for (int i : IntStream.range(-1, 2))
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ It's a deeper problem. While the kind of visualization I want is achievable with textual storage, I believe AST storage can bring more benefits and sorta force people to stop using inferior editors.
 
@elyse That's not valid Java is it
 
user1804599
Why not?
 
We still need to indent code, no? Or are you suggesting some other way of visualizing code?
 
Java has range-based for loops?
 
4:42 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ precisely
 
user1804599
Of course it does.
 
@elyse :o
 
@BartekBanachewicz So, not text based?
 
user1804599
C++ got its syntax from Java.
 
^ That
 
4:42 PM
we can horizontally offset parts of code basing on predefined visualization rules
 
Fourth time I've been asking that and I still can't get a clear answer
@BartekBanachewicz What would "code" look like? Would it be text?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ depends whether you consider "some characters floating on the screen mixed with other elements not in a monospace grid" - "text"
 
I don't get it
Are you talking about those puzzle-like editors?
 
Where you put bricks together and describe the flow of the program?
 
4:43 PM
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva inb4 UB for swapping NaNs on OSX causes permanent dataloss
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ basically, yes, kind of.
 
What's the difference?
So finally we got to the "not, it's not text based" part
 
They often stick to one particular representation as well
 
Holy shit
A whole 15 minutes for that
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ that's what she said
 
4:45 PM
@BartekBanachewicz What's "they"?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ "those puzzle-like editors"
"visual programming editors", if you like
they're often bundled with one language and are a sole way of presenting and editing it
my point is that one way to display the program's source isn't enough
and a monospaced grid of characters is far off what's actually useful
 
Are you claiming that these puzzle-like thingy would work with languages like C++?
 
Yeah, but you never actually give a reason for storing the program in a less usable manner.
It's always about the display.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I've already pointed out that this is another part
 
4:47 PM
And you think that that would be more compact on the screen than, say, regular text-based source?
 
we can discuss both separately I think
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ it would have many benefits over the regular monospace grid text
 
Such as?
Please don't bring tabs vs spaces up again
 
the ability to format code without the need to resorting to invisible characters
 
I'm bored with being bored, even answered stuff on a main site.
 
It's really a non issue people like to talk about
Not for C++ at least
 
4:48 PM
@elyse It doesn't work!
You broke my code!
I want compensation!
 
Also I would assume Visual Studio has a way of collapsing comment blocks
 
@Columbo Are you even using Java 8?
 
Just like you can collapse function blocks
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ not nearly enough
 
So, the long comment thingy is a non-issue either
 
4:49 PM
let's say
 
@Morwenn Dunno
 
some long code line
int serverId = nodejs::UemInjection::getServerId(pagent, xdynaHeader,requestArgs.cookie.c_str(), requestArgs.dtPC.c_str());
I want to comment on the xdynaHeader parameter, like you can do in Google Docs
 
> Java: 1.8.0_60; OpenJDK 64-Bit
 
I select the parameter, click "comment" and a bubble linked to that particular part is created
 
4:50 PM
Inline comments.
 
when someone reformats the source or adds a parameter, it still stays in place
 
I guess that would be cool
 
without resorting to whitespace magic again
 
user1804599
@Columbo SSCCE or GTFO
 
But I don't see why you can't keep the text based representation for that
 
4:50 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes would require splitting the code with newlines
 
No
Inline means inline
 
int serverId = nodejs::UemInjection::getServerId(pagent, xdynaHeader /*this is actually used to comment inline and makes it perfectly readable */,requestArgs.cookie.c_str(), requestArgs.dtPC.c_str());
I see what you mean
perfect
 
Yeah nothing to do with storage.
 
so it's perfectly feasible to store such comments like that?
 
4:52 PM
So you're saying that a person with a regular text editor can still easily read that source?
Because for me with annotations it would quickly turn into unreadable clusterfuck
especially if the annotations were to be more than just textual comments
 
Seriously, write your magic format thingy, I'll add to it the ability to use a text editor...
 
yeah add the ability to comment on parts of expressions
Ensure it supports multiline comments as well
 
That ability already exists.
 
and makes the code look like cheese because comments occupy visual space
 
Listen, inline documentation is awesome and all. And I'm the first to say that having documentation next to the code is much better than have it offsite and having to synchronize it with the code every time, but you can develop tools to do that with text based representations as well
 
4:54 PM
you can't keep the code structure if you want to add longer comments
 
Not if you show it properly.
 
It's not brick-specific
 
but then the original text representation is going to be confusing
 
You're again, as you did a hundred times before conflating both storage and visualization.
 
there's no point in keeping it
because that form of storage is fucking useless
it's just an ancient leftover
 
4:55 PM
And maybe yes, we need a better format for source code, but I'm highly not for those puzzle-like editors
 
There's bo point in losing it
 
I think they are fine for explaining program logic in the first year of programming to kids, but as a tool to work with 8 hours a day, hell no.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes dropping parsing stage makes writing languages easier, less error prone, and makes compilers and intepreters more efficient
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ that's because you have something else in mind. A toy, namely.
 
Also I thought that robot and cat were with you on this?
 
robot and cat are pro-textual-storage
 
user1804599
4:56 PM
ok what programming language to write my compiler in
 
I'm not sure whether they endorse the need for better vis or not
 
@elyse Visual Basic
 
user1804599
meh
 
user1804599
well VB.NET does have type switches which are neat
 
@BartekBanachewicz Anything graphical is almost by definition less space efficient than code.
 
user1804599
4:57 PM
but I'd still prefer pattern matching for traversing ASTs
 
@elyse 8086 assembly
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ BTW I thought you don't work with code 8 hours a day, as in you're not a software developer
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ bullshit.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I would love to be proven wrong on this
 
user1804599
COBOL lol
 
4:58 PM
@BartekBanachewicz And that is relevant... how? I've done 8-hours straight coding in my days.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ there's a difference between "I once coded for 8 hours" and "I'm coding for 8 hours each and every day"
just saying, not making a point out of that.
 
That was not the point of that statement btw
But I'm sure you know it. You just wanted to take a little bit of ad-hominem with you with your "you are not a real coder if you don't write code 8 hours a day so you cannot possibly know how that's like" thingy.
I appreciate a little bit of competition
 
anyway IMHO hasklig is a nice example of how actual graphical representation can be superior to text
1 min ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
just saying, not making a point out of that.
 
@BartekBanachewicz What am I looking at? Isn't that just a ASCII -> unicode converter for Haskell symbols?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ it converts characters to ligatures, yes.
 
5:01 PM
That's still text
 
not really, no.
those ligatures aren't textual symbols
another example, curly brackets resemble a "block", but they could be drawn as an actual rectangle for example
 
On what part of "textual" are you being pedantic about?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ monospaced grid
in this case, they stick to monospaced grid to not fuck up everything else
but an editor thought up ground up for better vis wouldn't need to
 
For all purposes, in text editors, those Unicode symbols are the same as characters that can be added, removed or moved left or right
 
another example: inline arrays
another example: colour pickers
 
5:03 PM
So I'm not sure how that qualifies as "graphical representation" of code
At that point, even regular ASCII text is graphical, because it uses graphic libraries to render those characters on the screen
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ look at how colors are displayed here
 
user1804599
you can do that in a text editor just fine
 
now imagine that instead of, say
int a[] = { 1, 2, 3 } you get an actual, excel-like embedded table
 
user1804599
that'd not be easy to edit
 
it can go on and on
@elyse much easier than a big line (or multiple lines!) separated by commas
 
5:05 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Hmm, I don't see the advantages to be honest. Nor the issues with that inline array
 
ok
yawn. Time to head home I guess.
 
Are you bored by this conversation?
Is that what that "yawn" is supposed to be?
 
Hi All, know these keywords?
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32614587/equuivalent-of-this-c-keywords-in-c-sharp
0
Q: Equuivalent of this C++ keywords in C#

ThisDudei'm working with a dll written in C++, so i want to call it from a C# application... It contains this keywords, i don't know what to convert them to using DLLImport I don't want to be calling something else.. char* double* DWORD char BYTE char[256] If i'm right, char* is IntPtr in C#, but...

 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ nah, I'm a bit tired. And if you don't see the advantages then there's hardly a point to continue talking about it
It's enough for me that Apple and Microsoft and others do and actually incorporate parts of what I want into their products
 
@BartekBanachewicz Maybe you are not explaining them right.
 
user1804599
5:08 PM
This code leaks if any but the first of the new[] expressions throw an exception (hence downvote until fixed). To fix this, use std::vector<std::vector<int>> instead. — elyse 54 secs ago
 
What are the advantages?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ study the above picture carefully
I might get back online at home
 
@BartekBanachewicz Ok, done. What now?
Where's the magic?
 
user1804599
Magic doesn't exist by definition.
 
I like that you parse every message literally
You probably think that everybody should be as precise as possible, otherwise you create ambiguity which could be dangerous.
Only a purist deals in absolutes
Well, and siths too, I guess
 
5:21 PM
std::map vs std::unordered_map for small amount of non-POD elements?
 
std::vector<std::pair<K, V>> - Chandler
 
wanker put up my rent.
@набиячлевэлиь If it's small it's not gonna matter and why the fuck are you even asking without profiling?
 
5:35 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ ordered_vector<std::pair<K, V>>
I've always wanted to build a sorted<Container> class.
 
5:55 PM
Man I look good (and just I little bit derpy).
 
well you're holding a firearm so a lot derpy
 
@ThePhD That would be nice, yes
@EtiennedeMartel What were you hunting?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Clay pigeons.
 

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