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12:02 AM
@Lalaland How would it have bad effects?
 
user406009
@ʞɔᴉN Oversupply of workers means a large decrease of salary, benefits, and working conditions for the entire industry.
 
@ʞɔᴉN Inflates.
 
@ThePhD in the example i sent you, i was using locations 0 and 2 in the shader (0 is vec3 pos, 2 is vec2 uv) but in my buff th data was: pos.x, pos.y, pos.z, uv.x, uv.y, pos.x, ...
adding extra "stuff" for unused location 1 would have just ruined cache locality and gained me nothing
 
user406009
@ʞɔᴉN The natural counterargument is that the "best" will be unaffected. However, that's a very limited portion of the population.
 
@Lalaland Good to hear I won't be affected.
 
user406009
12:05 AM
You might as well buy lottery tickets if you are betting your career on "being the best".
 
user406009
I think a good historical example of the trends I am talking about is the law job market.
 
user406009
There have been tons of articles about the surge of law graduates, and the eventual collapse.
 
@ʞɔᴉN I messaged you on Skype about important matters.
 
@Nooble so... undergradians?
 
@milleniumbug :)
 
12:10 AM
@Lalaland if you consider that a mediocre dev in my area earns 2-3x the median national household income, that might put things in perspective
@Nooble haven't checked my skype, will do
 
user406009
Yes, I am saying that's going to fall to the median national household income quite quickly.
 
user406009
There is no reason why it can't.
 
user406009
And capitalism always minimizes costs.
 
that's doubtful
 
@Lalaland except there is
 
12:13 AM
@Lalaland Heavily dependent on quality. My own experience has been almost the opposite: when the market is flooded with thousands of mediocre applicants (and when there are lots, most of them will be mediocre, from what I've seen), it's even easier to stick out as unusually competent, and get an even better salary than otherwise.
 
I don't know what world you live in, but I would rather being the only candidate in a industry of intense demand than being the top 1 amongst a million
 
That's not betting on being the best--just on being quite a bit better than an average that's falling quickly (which it seems to when supply increases quickly).
 
software is a young field
tooling still sucks, when the tooling becomes good mediocre developers will be somewhat effective
 
Monopoly - the way microsoft, apple and every other company wants to be ...
 
@orlp But it's fast-growing.
@orlp Let us hope that tooling never gets better.
 
12:17 AM
but if you can solve the problems for which there is no tool available, you will always be hireable well above the median
 
user406009
@JerryCoffin I think your over-emphasizing the loss in quality as supply grows. The people joining the supply are usually pretty good. Many are just transitioning from lower paying, but still difficult fields.
 
@chmod711telkitty mediocre devs, unite!
 
@ʞɔᴉN Check Skype before I destroy you, duck.
 
@Lalaland such as?
 
@Nooble i have to move my chair a whole 2 feet
 
12:18 AM
@ʞɔᴉN Oh ok then, never mind.
 
user406009
From my college compatriots, mainly physics and math.
 
@Lalaland what?
that's no competition
 
user406009
Also a ton from other engineering degrees.
 
literally any 'difficult' engineering degree is 2-3x median pay
there is no 'massive influx' of those guys, nothing to worry about
 
@Lalaland I can hardly imagine how it could be overemphasized--at least from what I've seen, it falls off a cliff. The simple fact is that MIT, UCB, Stanford, (etc.) aren't tripling class sizes overnight. When the supply grows quickly, it's not growth of the top candidates (or anywhere close to it).
 
12:19 AM
simply put, you don't have to worry at all about competition from competents
 
I mean you do feel great being the top one, but too much stress - there are always younger, smarter, more creative ones. And also people settle for less paid, inferior ones - they are more value for money at times.
 
you only have to worry how much the incompetents can do with their pre-built tools
 
user406009
@JerryCoffin Yes, but there are tons of schools with tons of graduates. And I don't think you can discount people so easily when a lot of CS education is self-taught.
 
@Lalaland the fact that it is self-taught means you can discount probably 10x more
 
@Lalaland Those self-taught people are all obviously completely incompetent.
 
12:23 AM
Also, you don't need geniuses to make software that works. What 99% of the stuff most company do would have done by 100+ other people already.
 
user406009
^
 
In the Netherlands, around 10% of the adults have a scientific university degree
of those probably 10% is competent
 
user406009
It also wouldn't take much CS supply to severely impact the market. There's only a very small number of CS jobs relative to the whole economy.
 
@Lalaland literally every company there is has automation
 
Damn, I must be losing my trolling ability. Nobody's falling for my attack on self-edjumicated programmers...
 
12:25 AM
@chmod711telkitty shhh
how will I justify my job?
 
user406009
@JerryCoffin It's because I don't have any evidence either way about the effectiveness of self-taught programmers.
 
I'm self-taught and I'm the best C++ programmer here!
There, proof.
@Lalaland Also, Jerry says.
 
user406009
Anyways, I think everyone should at least learn a little bit about the law job market collapse which happened a few years ago. I think the situation shares many similarities to the current situation in CS.
 
user406009
> History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme.
 
user406009
I'll still stick with CS because it's just too much darn fun.
 
12:31 AM
Yep.
 
user406009
I certainly won't be making any large house purchases though. Got to be prepared for rougher times ahead.
 
OpenGL is so much fun.
Right @ThePhD?
 
@Lalaland not sure if that example is entirely applicable, as tech has not only recovered from the dotcom crash but it has practically carried our economy
 
To be irreplaceable, you need irreplaceable advantage over everyone else ...
 
@Lalaland There is at least one major difference: software development job growth is in the much faster than average category. Oh, one other big difference: software development actually produces value.
 
12:33 AM
inb4 libel lawsuit
 
@ʞɔᴉN In which ways?
 
money
that's right, remove that crap
your arguments are futile
 
Hahahahaha.
 
@JerryCoffin produce value, to whom?
 
> Employment of software developers is projected to grow 22 percent from 2012 to 2022, much faster than the average for all occupations. The main reason for the rapid growth is a large increase in the demand for computer software.
Interesting.
 
user406009
12:38 AM
@Nooble Then you get into interesting arguments about which will grow faster, the jobs or the number of employees?
 
user406009
Which requires more hard data than I have on hand.
 
you mean, it requires a time machine
 
user406009
Cause last I heard, Facebook was starting to slow down their hiring for entry level positions.
 
@chmod711telkitty The market as a whole. That is, they produce something that has value. Most attorneys help transfer value from one place to another, but no new value is created in the process.
 
@Nooble You will burn in hell for your heresy.
@Lalaland Right, entry level. Because everyone and their mother tries to get in there.
But you'd be surprised the demand on the outside.
Also, I managed to secure the signature. I am officially in the course, and am thusly now taking 7 classes /cc @jaggedSpire
 
12:45 AM
@Nooble Doesn't seem too much
 
@ThePhD :3
 
Now I just need to fight the General Curriculum office to get into the proper Music Humanities section and my schedule will be golden.
 
@ThePhD how many credits?
 
@jaggedSpire :3
 
@ʞɔᴉN 17 only.
5 x 3, 2 x 1
 
12:47 AM
 
I'm going to petition the CS Department to teach the C++ course.
 
@ThePhD ah I guess that's not too bad
then again, a bunch of low-credit courses still takes more time than a few high-credit courses in my experience
 
evening mentlegen
 
and..?
reported to tumblr for not being all-inclusive in greeting
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Hello Spy.
 
12:52 AM
@ʞɔᴉN GOOD MORNING CONSCIOUS CELL CONGREGATES
 
user406009
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva What about the bots? They have feelings too.
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Evening, Dalies.
 
user406009
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva I have a secret to tell you then. You are actually a bot. All your memories are fake.
 
wtb std::max_of( a, b, c, ...., z );
and std::range::max( range );
Basically, variadic and range ALL THE THINGS.
 
user406009
12:56 AM
You can already do that I believe. std::max({a,b,c, ... ,z}) should work.
 
True.
Now I just need the range version.
 
user406009
NEXT
 
:O
 
user406009
I can sort of see why they need a second name for the range version. I guess there is some ambiguity when the iterator types are comparable.
 
12:58 AM
I just discovered John Oliver. The man is hilarious
 
user406009
Wow, they even have a constexpr version.
 
user406009
C++ is the only language I know with such an emphasis on compile time logic.
 
I’ll pretend you know 3 languages even if that’s obviously not the case.
"C++ is the only language I know which has integer literals."
 
Can anybody recognize cc64160mt.dll Is it some delphi/embarcadero runtime?
 
Are we getting range algorithms for C++17 or not? For existing standard algorithms, ie std::remove(range, element) and friends.
 
1:05 AM
it's probably a bitcoin miner trojan
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Still up in the air.
 
Does that mean no
probably
 
dunno
 
@ʞɔᴉN I doubt it, its part of dll that a hardware vendor distributes. Except its crashing.
 
Could come as a TR, too
 
1:07 AM
Niebler's working on it as STLv2
Projected land time is like, 2020.
The most recent talk he gave describes the timeline.
 
which talk
I'm out of the loop
what are C++
 
@Lalaland How would that work? Is it a constexpr version or are they changing it to constexpr?
 
> In this talk, Eric works through a tricky example and shows an elegant solution rooted both in yesterday's STL and tomorrow's. He will speak briefly about where we are in the process to reinvent and reinvigorate the Standard Library. - Have fun, @AnastasiyaAsadullayeva
 
user406009
Darn, there are a ton of proposals. open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015
 
yup
 
1:09 AM
For remove/erase in particular, we have STL's uniform container erasure
 
Yeah that one is good
Also! Does anyone know something like boost::small_vector but for strings?
@ThePhD Thanks (:
> N4340 Remove Deprecated Use of the register Keyword
inb4 "this breaks my optimizations!"
 
Ugh.
array_view paper is going forward
Damn them and their naming.
What do we call the compile-time array view now?
 
user406009
What don't you like about it?
 
c_array_view?
@Lalaland Just the name.
buffer_view is far more appropriate.
Since array means "compile time stuff"
 
what. does this suggest to not generate static destructors?
 
user406009
1:15 AM
I guess the embedded people want smaller binaries.
 
well why provide a destructor in the first place then
 
> Nonetheless, many deeply embedded program environments are not intended to exit from main. For these environments, the cleanup after the return from
main is inefficient.
 
user406009
There are a lot of cool proposals though.
 
user406009
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Library code.
 
Make storage, placement new.
 
1:15 AM
@Lalaland Which one is your favorite?
 
sorry I can’t read it that would exceed my monthly allotment
 
@ThePhD Really?
I don't get that impression at all.
 
user406009
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva The modules one.
 
hahahahahaha good one, I meant serious proposals
 
user406009
But this would also be nice.
 
1:17 AM
[[noreturn]] void main(int argc, char* argv[]) { /* ... */ }
meh
 
user406009
And this
 
Not sure how to feel about UFCS
 
I don't like the expected class.
I spent a while writing my parser with expected.
It was dumb and shitty.
It's not consistent with constructors, to start, and it polluted my entire fucking callstack, from the bottom all the way out.
Every single function, has to become expected<T, E>
 
Until I got to the point where I could do the error handling.
 
user406009
1:20 AM
Yeah, that's sorta the point.
 
user406009
Explicit errors.
 
user406009
But still better than checked exceptions.
 
Monad contagion
 
user406009
Cause at least expected composes relatively well.
 
This paper is amazing
 
user406009
1:22 AM
It will be interesting to see which make the cut. Unless they have already decided.
 
user406009
Too many proposals, not enough time.
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Yes please.
 
> possible dangers of giving non-expert language users a too powerful tool to use and the dangers of implementing it all at once.
Fucking shut up, standards committee.
We need all the fucking power we can get in our static reflection tools.
Zzzz.
 
user406009
I think we need a reflection technical specification thingy first.
 
I never read up about static reflection.
I'll do so now.
 
user406009
1:25 AM
That's a hard API to design well.
 
There was a static reflection thingy
 
Yeah, here.
Also, Borgleader! ♥
 
 
> The name reflection is used to describe code which is able to inspect other code in the same system (or itself).
What's so fancy about that...
 
it’s supposed to be practical
you don’t need everything to be fancy
 
@Nooble it's useful
Also WTB compiler flag -freorder-fields
 
WTB -fixerrrors-all
 
I need a better way of describing this data.
 
-fno-ix-errors-all
 
@Nooble first it'll start with the switch name itself
 
1:36 AM
There’s a lot of Ix business in Haskell libs. Took me quite some time to understand it stands for 'index'.
 
@milleniumbug I know, couldn't think of a good one :(
-thisisaswitchfixerrors-all
 
@LucDanton yeah I thought it was Ix
:P
@Nooble that's not what I meant
count how many 'r's are there
 
Oh :P
@milleniumbug I laughed but it's far too late.
 
what’s a freordering anyway
 
it's similar to funsafety
 
1:40 AM
is it a wall
 
nope, but at least it's not weverything
 
-Wnothing
-Wsomethings
 
"fun is important, but so is safety, therefore I use -funsafe-math-optimizations" :D
 
-42
Q: Would like a monetary bounty. It would not consume reputation points

Geoffrey AndersonThe question submitter (original poster) would use a credit card or paypal to put money into the question. The money goes into the account of the question, as a sort of escrow. The winning answerer gets the money, which transfers into the answerer's personal account or escrow. To enable this ...

 
makes sense
 
1:43 AM
@Mysticial I wouldn't personally use this service, but I don't see anything wrong...
 
people already do some stupid stuff for rep
 
I would pay for upvotes
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva :D
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva :D
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva D:
 
1:52 AM
@Nooble ...why is your description std::unique_ptr_to_ptr_ptr*?
 
@jaggedSpire Hehe.
 
unique_putter
 
If it was Java, it'd be named, PointerForWhichThereOnlyExistsOneInstanceOfTheObjectItPointsTo.
6
 
@jaggedSpire It should be a proposal for c++17.
 
1:56 AM
@Mysticial disgusting... i like it
 
Right next to modules.
 
user406009
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Don't worry, that will be included in the -fdo-what-i-want-not-what-say flag
 
user406009
Coming soon to Borland C++ compiler.
 
@Lalaland I can't wait for that.
 
@milleniumbug I forgot to prepend it with Smart.
Too late to edit.
 
1:57 AM
I'm all for descriptive type names, but that's like humping the column count.
 
user406009
SingletonReference
 
user406009
That would be a better name.
 
lol
except it's not a reference that's singleton
 
SmartPointerForWhichThereOnlyExistsOneAndOnlyOneInstanceOfTheObjectItPointsToCl‌​ass
 
fuck English language
 
1:58 AM
You can't really extend it further.
 
really?
 
you wanna bet?
 
sigh
I'll give 1 internets to the person who can.
Significantly.
 
also I see you reverted your avatar
 
Yeah.
 
2:00 AM
SmartPointerForWhichThereOnlyExistsOneAndOnlyOneInstanceOfTheObjectItPointsToIM‌​eanItItsUndefinedBehaviorToUseMoreThanOnePerObjectButYouDoWhatYouWantYouIdiotItsO‌​nYourHeadWhenTheBuildBreaksCl‌​ass
 
I was only testing the cropping chat did.
@jaggedSpire Nice.
 
Eh, exposition always fluffs character counts
 
user406009
Why does it seem like Meta is always a shitshow?
 
well, it is
 
@Nooble seriously, why have you latched onto my shaaaame
 
2:02 AM
@jaggedSpire Fine, I'll change it. A bit.
 
@Nooble I tried using "rollbacked", but then I withheld and googled to see if it's a word
 
you could try rolled back
@Nooble Eh, do whatever. It's not utterly shameful.
 
user406009
@milleniumbug Incorrect. Words mean whatever the hell we as society want them to mean.
 
user406009
Everyone things rollback is a verb.
 
user406009
It is thus a verb.
 
user406009
2:05 AM
Just like how fuck can be used for pretty much anything.
 
@Lalaland asiofhadsiop gili gili whatever yau ment
 
@jaggedSpire Done.
 
@Nooble haha!
 
user406009
I think we've broken milleniumbug. It seems like he is in dire need or more alcohol.
 
er, I mean, nooooo
 
2:06 AM
@Lalaland Well, I was using these words for whatever I wanted them to mean
 
user406009
Individuals don't matter, society does.
 
Weird, chat user-descrption-thingies don't wrap.
 
Well, society consists of individuals. Go figure
 
@Nooble fun, eh?
 
@jaggedSpire somuchfun
 
2:08 AM
@Nooble funPtrToPtrPtr
 
user406009
Also, @ElimGarak, I guess the KyroStat project is dead again?
 
user406009
Or are you still working on it?
 
@Lalaland It's never dead.
It's never going to die ok.
 
Do I need to pull up the Parrot Sketch?
 
Kyrostat is not dead, it's just that nobody is working on it because of "creative differences". :P
 
2:10 AM
Kyrostat will die only when every Lounger dies the second time.
@jaggedSpire Yes please.
 
user406009
I guess I'll have to step in as the shitty Elim replacement. And create a bad Kyrostat prototype.
 
@Nooble How's homework? :P
 
@ElimGarak I should be sleeping right now.
 
Kyrostat sounds a bit like thermostat
 
Take a guess at why I can't.
@milleniumbug Or Cryostat.
 
user406009
2:12 AM
@Nooble You are playing soccer?
 
user406009
While typing in chat?
 
user406009
Cause that would be pretty impressive.
 
@Lalaland Yes, while doing history homework.
 
@Nooble yup
 
2:15 AM
Ugg, can anybody recommend an 8 port internal SATA controller?
 
@jaggedSpire That guy has a funny voice.
 
user406009
We clearly need a "poop" action here as the opposite of starring.
 
user406009
That would be hilarious to add to StarGazer.
 
@Lalaland Do it.
 
user406009
2:26 AM
Yeah, I still need to write StarGazerAdvanced. With all these features.
 
> The tool wouldn't be for expressing disdain for posts, he said.
Well, fuck. Wait, I don't even use FB, what am I complaining about?
 
user406009
@ElimGarak Since when have any of us given a fuck about what something is "supposed" to be used for.
 
user406009
For instance, stars are supposed to be used for interesting/useful messages.
 
user406009
Instead, we just star every message with cock in it.
3
 
Hi all!
 
user406009
2:28 AM
Welcome to the best of the chat rooms.
 
Is there a SE site where programmers could ask job offer related questions?
 
user406009
 
Just was there, It looks like there too most questions are techie in tone ... will look closer, thanks.
 
On programmers.stackexchange.com there are two career.* tags, but both say "DO NOT USE THIS TAG. THIS TAG IS BEING ACTIVELY CLEANED UP."
 
user406009
2:35 AM
Oh, that's news to me. I guess I don't track the meta discussions enough. @ElimGarak's answer is probably correct.
 
@ElimGarak Yea! that's more like it!
Thanks for the pointers :)
 
user406009
Here's some more in-case you need them: int* a; float* b; double* c;
 
You can give a man a pointar and he'll be dangerous for a day, but teach him how the pointar is formed and he'll be dangerous for a lifetime.
 
user406009
I think pointers are actually more dangerous after the lifetime is over.
 
user406009
Shit, I'm too tired.
 
user406009
2:45 AM
All my joke attempts are failing.
 
user406009
Good night peoples.
 
> People seem to forget that Europe is not a country.
Why am I reading HN again
 
r u a hacker
 
Sometimes I forget that Europe is not a country.
Isn't the capital London and everyone there speaks French??
 
Wait, who forgets that Europe is a country?
 
2:50 AM
Retards Americans Hacker News users
Is that enough of a pleonasm
 
Are you a cumpoter wizard?
 
I miss the times when /r/rust was full of cringey material
It's way too reasonable now
 
lol, my computer is in Cicada's timezone.
 
Abbreviated CTZ
 
is that a gaxian kowtowing
 
2:57 AM
I wish the catch unit testing lib had a way to run similar tests with different starting conditions... it seems like you need to chain everything down from the beginning every time
also what a terrible name for the library... super hard to google
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva btw turns out you can do regions without typestate
 
@Prismatic You can
@LucDanton How?
#include <regions>?
 
The nesting of regions is reflected in the nesting of a monad transformer, so you end up with Region s (Region s m) a etc.
Then there’s some type prolog to express parent–child relations, or at least one paper does that, not sure how needed it is
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva how?
 
In other news, async exceptions are so annoying that I’m not sure using regions to track deterministic destruction is worth it.
 
3:04 AM
@Prismatic Maybe I misunderstood what you asked.
 
it’s certainly turned me off doing it myself since I don’t want to get it wrong, and there are enough libraries out there that do it—they lack the rank-2 safety trick though
 
Just use Javascript m8
 
Say you were using dependency injection and wanted to test two implementations.
class Divider { Divider(Dep* dep) {} };
Divider(new CallDivideDep) div0; // run a whole bunch of tests on div0
Divider(new CallInverseMultiplyDep) div1; // run exact same tests on div1
With Catch I need to copy and paste the same set of tests for both starting conditions... afaict
 
Surprisingly hard to get right with the testing frameworks out there (in the C++ ecosystem).
I’ve hacked a thing for Boost.Test since testing ranges is rather straightforward and repetitive (does it have all those expected elements and/or supports all the expected operations?).
 
ctrl c + ctrl v it is
 
3:14 AM
Is it bad to merge remote tracking branches into local branches, instead of pulling the remote branch into the local one and merging from there?
 
Good night folks.
 
nite nobble
 
I'm actually sleeping before 2:00 AM.
You all should congratulate me.
 
l8r
why cant lambdas capture globals?
5
Q: Why lambda captures only automatic storage variables?

TracerI just started learning lambda functions in C++ and i don't understand why lambda's allow capturing only automatic storage variables? For example: int x; int main() { [&x](int n){x = n;}; // 'x' cannot be captured... return 0; } On the other hand static variables don't need capturing a...

huh
 
Non-local stuff will outlive the lambda. In this respect it works as it would in a regular function.
 
3:38 AM
How does it feel to know you'll never be as cool as Bjarne, lounge?
 
He kinda looks like pedobear all the time.
 
^hater detected
you're probably a single-monitor pleb
 
@Prismatic I'd say it burns, but Bjarne's aura of cool assuages the aforementioned burn like ice.
anywho, night Loungeites. My car decided it had gone too many days without being a fuck-up so I have to get up early tomorrow to take it to the mechanic.
 
Buy a Porsche, problem solved. Nite!
 
3:53 AM
Nah, it would just be a more expensive fuck-up.
When I tell people the brand of my car they're all "Wow that's super-reliable isn't it?" and I'm all "No if it were a person it would have choked to death on its own tongue by now"
@ElimGarak night
 

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