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Xeo
11:00 PM
i.e., the first type variable, a, is bound and can't be changed with fmap
 
@Rapptz I’m seeing some techniques that didn’t work with GCC in the past—having both a requires clause and expression SFINAE in the past.
 
it feels overly verbose to me :s
 
I don’t believe the conditional (and similar) template is actually useful.
 
Xeo
@Borgleader I'll keep it in mind
 
yeah that's what I'm thinking too
 
11:02 PM
@Rapptz Fundamentally though there is no shortcut. You have to rank or disconnect the overloads yourself. (I don’t particularly enjoy his or her style either though.)
On an unrelated note, did you notice the style of writing a quasi-trait (syntactical check)? It’s great!
struct Incrementable {
    template<class T>
    auto requires_(T&& x) -> decltype(++x);
};
^as short as it gets
 
oh yeah
 
I may very well switch to that. All the usual noise is absent!
@R.MartinhoFernandes Check the above out.
 
it's the same thing as Niebler's valid_expr
sort of
except he uses something called a model to do the SFINAE
 
According to the author it is a Nieblerism indeed. Not sure how I missed it.
 
yeah he's one of the people I meant yesterday that adopted Niebler's way of writing concepts.
 
11:09 PM
I still need a name for something like Incrementable, which I don’t feel is an actual concept but certainly is a building block for them (e.g. Iterator, Integral).
Thinking about it, it’s just like copy-constructible. So do we have an actual definition for what’s a trait and what’s not?
 
@User1 There's no silver bullet, you will have to read more than one to get a decent understanding of the language of your choice... that together with a TON of practice
 
Ell
Incrementable sounds like a trait
 
@LucDanton I'd call those 'type properties'.
But I think that's taken for things like
is_const et al.
which makes more sense I guess :s
so maybe 'type operations'? iunno
 
Xeo
Syntacticals
there need to be Semanticals :o
 
Eh, that’s too strong. You can’t do much with something incrementable (resp. copy constructible) on its own except the obvious—but you can’t reason about it.
 
11:13 PM
I like 'type operations'.
So a concept needs certain 'type operations'.
 
Xeo
@Rapptz add_const
 
That's a 'type transformation' :)
 
Xeo
conditional?
 
^oh, since some traits do do that that’s a good distinction
 
Ell
Isn't a concept a set of traits?
An abstractions over some behaviours?
 
11:14 PM
@Xeo I consider that a meta function, not a trait.
 
@Ell Arguably an open question. But for the purposes of our discussion, consider that the things I care about (e.g. iterators, ranges) come with more than just syntax.
 
ISTR cppreference had some arbitrary categorisation of <type_traits>.
 
Xeo
@Rapptz add_const is also a meta function for me
 
Yeah me too. Now that I think about it.
 
Xeo
categorisation is hard
also, I should sleep
 
11:17 PM
Naming things etc.
 
Type properties vs type transformations.
I still find it silly to describe ‘Can use the prefix ++ operator on an expression of such type’ as a property :(
Eh I’ll think about it.
 
'operation'!
 
Ell
Im going for a pizza delivery job interview tomorrow
 
@Rapptz What about e.g. std::extent though? Don’t tell me it’s a transformation :s
 
Ell
11:21 PM
How early do I turn up?
 
Xeo
I'm going for sleep
 
Are you going to have operations, properties and transformations? :Þ
 
Xeo
@LucDanton I think that was his plan
 
@LucDanton Nah. A property. :p
Operations, properties, and transformations!
 
Well. Let’s think about it.
 
11:22 PM
I don't know, I'm kind of liking the idea.
 
@Rapptz Sticking point for me would be: what’s the difference between an operation and a property?
Which one does is_copy_constructible belong to?
 
Ell
Operations change state
 
A property would be something you can query about the type itself (e.g. is_const). An operation is something you can do with the type (e.g. Incrementable).
 
It's effectively a check for syntax itself, but conceptually you might could add an axiom that ++x!=x (once axioms pick up, if they do)
 
Ell
Properties are an observation
Transformation changes type
 
11:23 PM
Or not quite that... ++x not equivalent to x (however that works)
 
@HWalters That requires some notion of equivalence! That’s non-trivial.
 
30
Q: BrainFuckedBotsForBattling - A Brainfuck Tournament

CipherAll bots at the battle arena suddenly got brainfucked and no one can explain why. But who cares as long as they are still able to fight - although Brainfuck is the only language they understand anymore. Scoreboard | Owner | Bot Score | |--------------------|----...

 
Well, yeah... and axioms... but I only toss it out there because in theory, we might get axioms later, so may as well think of it that way
 
x++ is an abomination and ++x being an expression is retarded.
COMMAND–QUERY SEPARATION ANYONE
 
@Mysticial lol
 
11:25 PM
@HWalters Eh I don’t intend to preempt Bjarne & friends on that front. I’m looking to improve what I already do.
 
@LucDanton A property.
Hm..
 
But copying is something I can do! There’s overlap.
 
No
Not a property. An operation.
Life's hard.
 
4 mins ago, by Luc Danton
Well. Let’s think about it.
 
Ell
An operation being supported is a property
 
11:27 PM
1440p video on YouTube wat.
 
I introduce a 4th category. The super-property!
 
user3010322
Is it like a super position?
 
Maybe the categories can have some type of hierarchy.
 
Ell
Operations would be subcategory of property
 
Yes, we need more epicycles sophistication.
 
11:30 PM
Bikeshedding is hard.
 
/bikeshed
Hey why does background colour not change.
 
user3010322
Time to use FreeType.
 
user3010322
And port to OpenGL.
 
@LucDanton I think is_copy_constructible is more of an operation rather than a property. I mean, yeah the type is copy constructible but it's more of an operation you do in the semantic level. Unlike things like is_const, is_void, etc which are there at the syntactic level. Not sure how to describe it.
Same could be argued vice versa I guess.
 
user3010322
category property/operations, type property/operations ?
 
user3010322
11:33 PM
@Borgleader Hey have you used FreeType?
 
huh?
 
nope
 
user3010322
@Rapptz I'm not really following the discussion, don't mind me.
 
user3010322
@Borgleader Bummer.
 
user3010322
Guess I'm doing this raw.
 
user3010322
11:33 PM
Sometimes I wish I had help writing this code.
 
user3010322
Ugh, my trackpad has gone completely fucking rogue.
 
is_void is not syntactic, consider decltype( throw 42 ) where void doesn’t appear.
 
well things do tend to get fucky when you take expressions into account
 
This kinda is about expressions :( Expression properties vs type properties (the latter assuming you even need to discriminate among traits)? Euarg, plus there’s still is_copy_constructible etc.
 
Well yeah, expression and types would be 'merged' I suppose. I guess my argument up there was kinda bad.
It was just how I thought about it.
 
11:38 PM
That is, since SFINAE is the nec plus ultra of the time I tend to work with expressions. I’ll gladly admit this is not the norm.
 
Fuck interwebs no go
 
I like the idea of a category hierarchy.
 
Shit, it's working again.
 
@Rapptz That’s a whole different can of hornets that is somewhat hacky :( I don’t have a good argument for defending things like is_invokable<F&, Args...> vs is_invokable<F const&, Args...> other than ‘it appears to be very useful’.
I think I’ll leave the conversation at that. I’m kinda winded and it won’t be too long before I start saying complete nonsense.
 
:(
 
11:43 PM
LOL you ALMOST got me, @starwars Commander. http://t.co/c1yvKBtZUz
 
I’ll first build the bikeshed and paint it later, if I find the will :)
 
I like the categories, I mean they show promise to me.
Just needs a little polishing :s
 
user3010322
@Borgleader For OpenGL, if you have a Texture,
 
But is_copy_constructible :D
 
user3010322
how do you pull information about that Texture from the id? Like, information such as the current format and the like.
 
11:45 PM
Hey, we have an existing term of art: associated expressions. How about properties with associated expressions vs those without?
 
associated expressions?
 
@ThePhD no clue, ive never needed to do that
 
How dare you ask for examples when I’m in this state!
Think *it which is the associated expression of typename std::iterator_traits<It>::reference ;)
I.e. that’s what defines and makes the member type reference useful.
(I had this example stowed in one of my README.md because at some point discovering associated expressions made something go ‘click’ in my head.)
 
Oh. So in terms of the categories, an associated expression would be the 'operation' to the 'property'?
 
11:50 PM
Not necessarily e.g. I could see a property with more than just one.
See
 
user3010322
@Borgleader Looks like it. Awesome.
 
user3010322
I was stuck in GlGetTexParameter
 
user3010322
These smushed names really don't help me figure shit out...
 
When you brought up is_void and is_const (as syntactical), I was trying to think of an expression which is valid iff is_void<decltype( expr )>. In other words, trying to provide an alternative definition via an associated expression.
 
Ell
Lol I'm a terrible friend
 
user3010322
11:51 PM
You've said this before.
 
Ell
I bet my friend I could get further than him with a particular girl before him
 
Now while that may be possible, I think you’ll agree that this would be extremely contrived. So that feeling of doing something wrong was crucial: even if it’s possible to find an associated expression, it may not be the right thing to do.
 
Ell
Because by coincidence we both liked the same person
 
@Ell oh no....
 
@Ell A terrible fiend?
 
Ell
11:52 PM
I fucked her and moved on didn't tell him
 
So it may be that some properties are more naturally expressed via associated expressions, some not, and some in-between (I think is_copy_constructible and similar are very good candidates for the last). What do you think?
 
user3010322
<_>
 
Ell
He is now just telling me he made out with her, a year after the bet
 
@MartinJames terrible sex fiend apparently
 
Ell
I feel too bad for him to tell him
 
11:53 PM
@Ell OK, gob shut.
@Ell Good plan.
 
Ell
I'm going to stay quiet for his sake
But I am laughing at him
 
Hm..
 
@Ell Won't help him much if she happens to tell him you guys hooked up
 
Ell
She won't
Her best friend hates me
So if she tells him her best friend will find out and dislike her for it
 
Another example: you can likely define extent via sizeof, but doesn’t a definition of the sort ‘for array type T[N], N’ seem more sensible?
 
11:57 PM
yes
 
@Ell Just keep quiet. The more you say, the more you wil be fucked over.
 
Ell
@martin I couldn't resist a "that's what you think ;)" after I asked him what took him so long and he said "not as long as you"
I just find this hilarious
 
And sometimes ‘can I perform ++foo?’ is the thing we’re looking for. They’re all properties, some with expressions.
 
Ell
I'm a terrible person but I can't stop laughing
 
Or ‘yes/no traits’ vs ‘transformation traits’ :D
 

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