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Xeo
12:00 PM
no, the compiler can remove the recursion
 
right, damn these clever compilers
 
I am contemplating quitting all social media or related sites (including here) at the end of this year ... or earlier next year - playing disappearance. The other site which I used to frequent seems to have deregistered, making me think maybe it is possible to 'dissociate' from the internet. I would still have my website up but that's about it.
 
why would you want to do that?
 
@Xeo done
0
Q: Inlining infinite recursion

StackedCrookedIs this code defined behavior? inline int a() { return 0 + a(); } If optimizations are enabled then Clang optimizes it out but GCC doesn't. So the code is not portable in practice. Does the C++ spec say anything about this?

 
@Xeo doesn't matter that it can remove the recursion.
 
12:06 PM
@AlexM. being mysterious always beats being a open book, for a person who is not exactly an extrovert anyways
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, replace /a/xyz.. with /a/xy/z.... For example: coliru.stacked-crooked.com/Archive/6b/905bb183a576bd/main.cpp
 
Yeah I got it.
 
Actually I have been thinking about it for a couple of weeks. But I need to time it right ...
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked Is it UB even when you never call the function?
 
user1804599
You don't call it in your example code. :P
 
12:10 PM
@telkitty.exe I always thought extroverts were the hardest books to read because with all their socialization they end up learning how to put up many faces to deal with different kinds of people
introverts are hard to reach but easy to read books, I think
 
@rightfold Good point. I would think defining a function and never calling it can not influence the behavior of a program.
 
If someone really want to read you, I am sure they can ... they more you say, the longer you stay on the internet, the easier it is
 
user1804599
Unless you and dlsym. :P
 
user1804599
But that's not standard.
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked FTFY :P
 
12:13 PM
@telkitty.exe can't say I find that to be a problem for myself, but if it is for you, I won't argue :D
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit you say the behavior of my program is undefined, but your quote from the standard does not mention UB
 
The end result isn't much different
 
Ah, I see that now.
 
@StackedCrooked The standard doesn't enumerate all programs for which the behaviour is undefined.
@StackedCrooked There are limited number of places where it specifies precondition violations that result in UB. But, in general, undefined behaviour arises where the behaviour of your program is simply, um, not defined.
 
@Edward whoa, that's true
 
12:18 PM
But it's not UB
 
It deffo is.
 
I guess it's also safe to say the animals feeding on your decaying corpse are nature's garbage collectors
 
The compiler cannot order pizza
 
Surely if an assumption is made and the program does not satisfy the assumption, then the program's behaviour is undefined by definition? — Lightness Races in Orbit May 6 '11 at 9:37
 
That's my litmus test for UB
 
12:19 PM
what
 
The implementation can only assume one of those possibilities
 
Xeo
The compiler is only allowed to assume 'every function not involving I/O returns'
well, and a bit more
 
user1804599
VOLATIEL
 
I don't mind my compiler ordering pizza, as long as it's billed to someone else.
 
UB is defined in a way that are no requirements at all
 
12:20 PM
if the compiler orders the pizza, what does the VM do?
 
heh
In quantum mechanics, bra–ket notation is a standard notation for describing quantum states, composed of angle brackets and vertical bars. It can also be used to denote abstract vectors and linear functionals in mathematics. It is so called because the inner product (or dot product on a complex vector space) of two states is denoted by a ⟨bra|ket⟩, :\langle\phi|\psi\rangle , consisting of a left part, ⟨φ|, called the bra , and a right part, |ψ⟩, called the ket . The notation was introduced in 1939 by Paul Dirac and is also known as Dirac notation, though the notation has precursors in Gr...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So what? Stacked's code does none of them.
 
user1804599
I like bras.
 
user1804599
But not kets!
 
@Lightness look up the definition of UB in one of the first chapters
 
12:21 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes, that's what the clause is saying. The implementation is allowed to assume that one of those four things happen. If they don't, then it's not saying anything about them, so the behaviour is undefined.
 
bra = branch always ... can't believe I still remember assembly instructions ...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes no u
 
user1804599
Schrödinger's Ket
 
@BartekBanachewicz Bra-ket - sounds like your GF:)
 
If you want to take this further I suggest posting a contradictory answer on this question because it's been done to death before
> behavior for which this International Standard imposes no requirements
 
12:22 PM
Yes
 
Find me a quote from the standard that imposes requirements on a program not satisfying any of those four assumptions.
Granted, this clause is not worded very well. I want a "If none of these assumptions are met, the behaviour of the program is undefined" passage underneath it (and, in fact, I shall suggest it now); but I maintain that it's implicit.
I really should do some work at some point today
 
The standard allows the implementation to make the assumption, but doesn't say programs must work that way.
When the standard says that, it doesn't word it in terms of what the implementation can do.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Maybe later.
 
WTF my new phone is downloading crap already - Chrome. I don't want Chrome. I never asked for Chrome. Fuck off Google.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes :)
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, not usually: like I said, I think it's a poorly-worded UB condition
 
I agree with what it should be.
 
12:29 PM
At the very least, this falls under UB by the meta:as-if rule :)
 
hm
the list of possible "hardware implementations" of quantum computers is interesting
 
urlplz
@MartinJames fwiw, chrome on android is very good
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit there
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Won't flash. OK, flash crashes every 10 mins on desktop, but I need it for some stuff on phone.
 
Btw @Bartek probability monads are fun to play with to model quantum interactions.
 
12:33 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes oooh. the possibilities.
 
Ooops, I didn't mean "probably".
 
Xeo
hahaha, the flag
 
> The Circ monad encapsulates the type of quantum operations. For example, a quantum operation that inputs two Qubits and outputs a Qubit and a Bit has the following type:
 
@Xeo I don't get it. Does it mean it is really big or really small?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes small, because he's compensating with guns
 
12:34 PM
Or better: I can get two different jokes there, so I ran into a joke resolution ambiguity.
 
hm that reminds me
 
@MartinJames flash what
srsly
 
I should start coding our OWL ontology
 
@BartekBanachewicz Fock state
 
For Fock state.
 
12:37 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Still plenty of flash video on sites/youtube.
 
quantum is mental (and useful for surprisingly few things). I wrote a paper on it once
@MartinJames most of it is HTML5 now, including YouTube AIUI
 
Quantum Tic-tac-toe is nice.
 
@MartinJames what
Plznoflash
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yes, and the sooner flash is dead, the better.
 
it's dead already
 
12:38 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Not all YouTube videos are HTML5.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes but all of them can be served via HTML5-compatible thing
 
@BartekBanachewicz OK, but then there are flash zombies.
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah.. no.
 
@BartekBanachewicz No.
 
Xeo
Flash is alive, sadly.
Otherwise I would be writing something other than AS3
 
12:38 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I can open any youtube video on my iPad.
 
user1804599
@Xeo AS3 to JS compiler.
 
@Xeo then it's dying.
 
As someone that runs Flashless, I find unwatchable videos with some regularity.
 
user1804599
When Flash is gone, you will still write AS3!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that'd just be suckage of the way that YT serves videos to people
 
12:39 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Famous last words.
@BartekBanachewicz No, it's the Flash.
 
1 min ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@R.MartinhoFernandes I can open any youtube video on my iPad.
 
Bartek replaces my reality with his. It's super effective.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't have an iPad, I have an Android phone.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes and suddenly what, I can't watch YT videos because you said so?
they work.
 
Wait, does that mean I can watch them because you said so?
 
12:41 PM
@MartinJames I also have an android phone and I also watch every freaking YT video
 
> Many YouTube videos will play using HTML5 in supported browsers. You can request that the HTML5 player be used when possible.
Btw, here it is from the horse's mouth.
 
can you provide a video url that you deem inaccessible w/o Flash?
 
Very strange way of wording "All YouTube videos will play using HTML5 in supported browsers. You can request that the HTML5 player be used always."
I wonder why.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes because, in general, youtube is sucky as fuck to enduser
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't bookmark them for obvious reasons, but next time I find one I'll remember to show it to you.
 
12:42 PM
it's so poor, unresponsive, unintuitive and slow I can hardly take it usually
but then again, on mobile devices it tends to work better.
I think they have separate proxy servers for mobiles that convert and compress the videos on-the-fly
 
I don't want Flash, but I'm stuck with it:(
 
you're not, stop the FUD.
Flash is useless.
boycott everyone who uses it w/o HTML5/JS alternative
 
If it's useless, it won't be used. Don't worry.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes There are notions in the web to actually append m. (as in http://m.youtube.com/...) to your YT url to make it play w/o flash. That would confirm my theory about proxies.
 
Er. What.
YouTube has an option to never use Flash.
I have that on.
 
12:46 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes why does it depend on the video?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes but you said that some videos don't play, amiright?
7 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
As someone that runs Flashless, I find unwatchable videos with some regularity.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Right.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I honestly dunno. Makes little sense.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes source
 
user1804599
> You need to upgrade your Adobe Flash Player to watch this video.
Download it from Adobe.
 
user1804599
12:48 PM
And HTML5 player is enabled.
 
> Mozilla Firefox for instance supports WebM but not h.264.
aha
 
user1804599
And my browser supports all the features listed.
 
@rightfold urlplz
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz youtube.com
 
12:49 PM
@rightfold to an actual video, silly
 
user1804599
Yes.
 
are you high or what
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
I cannot find any /watch URLs that don't work without Flash, though.
 
you two are so similar it's unreal
I like how rightfold actually hid the URL in his screenshot, just to make doubly sure that he wasn't answering Bartek's straightforward question on the third attempt
 
12:53 PM
heh
 
user1804599
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It was not intentional.
 
user1804599
scrot just sucks.
 
user1804599
I should install escrotum and see if it works better.
 
I don't even the naming.
 
user1804599
vOv
 
12:54 PM
> Compiles with ghc7.8, passing 4/50 tests.
that pullrequest
 
BBC websites info: 'But you will need version 9 or above of Flash to play the clips. The latest version can be installed via Adobe . '
 
'Some users have asked why the BBC doesn't use an HTML 5 video player instead of Adobe Flash.

We are pleased to announce that we are currently working on an HTML 5 player for Apple devices, such as iPhones and iPads.

However, this does require a great deal of technical development work to our current systems and there are technical challenges around the ability to secure video streams in HTML 5. Please bear with us while we make these changes.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I like how "WARNING:" becomes "SPANISH:"
 
12:57 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes #dontuknow
@MartinJames why only Apple devices
way to corporate
yes, i know, those are the ones that need it
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Fuck knows. HTML5 is HTML5 and, ATM, unavailable from BBC.
 
much like decent journalism and an entertaining breakfast show
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That too.
 
@BartekBanachewicz lol
@rightfold y u no bookmarks?
 
user1804599
1:03 PM
Not at work.
 
user1804599
I have lots at home.
 
user1804599
Mostly porn.
 
never heard of syncing?
 
Syncing porn bookmarks at work?
 
@rightfold why porn when you can make them hairs fly and get all the bitches?
 
1:07 PM
this is a seriously good track: youtube.com/watch?v=Wfoi0Mn6Kyc
it's been a while since I last heard one that kept me from working lol
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey I cannot.
 
k :(
 
Tiësto lacks something
I think it's the ability to make decent music
 
I'm not a good critic, I like his stuff
 
Jem
1:13 PM
@AlexM: I've heard that song, and agree with you :)
 
I also can't make the difference between Armin's and Tiesto's music even though everyone says it's pretty obvious
but hey, as long as it sounds good, it's good music to me :D
 
Jem
I don't listen to intently.. I usually just put stuff like this on while programming
 
@Jem yup, that bit at 1:55 is freaking awesome
 
Jem
You heard of Jelli Radio? Their BPM station is pretty great :)
 
Oh... it's... that.
 
1:16 PM
@Jem first time I hear of it
 
Jem
I like Jelli Radio. They have ~30 stations. It's user-voted radio. That and Jelli Vegas are great ones.
 
is it android only?
 
Bleh. I hate giving presentations.
 
Jem
@AlexM It's online (jelli.com), iPhone, and Droid
Unfortunately, they removed BPM from the web site, so it's only available on mobile now
Speaking of (to anyone): What's your fav smartphone?
 
I'll get an android phone in a week or so and I'll take a look; right now I get my music by randomly clicking on videos on youtube
 
Jem
1:19 PM
I'm thinking of switching over to WinPhone 8.1.. Cortana gets me excited, too :P
 
so new sources are appreciated
 
OMG, I cannot see a reason for Windows Phone existence.
Let alone use.
 
Jem
lol :P
@AlexM Wow, someone else who listens to most of their music on youtube.. my co-workers make fun of me for that, but there's so much new stuff/good/free mixes out there :)
 
TBH, I do not own a smart phone. If I could choose, I would go for something Android based. Samsung, HTC or LG.
 
Android sucks.
 
1:21 PM
If I got iPhone as a gift, I would not throw it away either.
 
Jem
I'm not as much a fan of the Android market practices.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Everything sucks. :)
 
Jem
Currently on an iPhone, but I feel like OS-wise, the WinPhone is really competing well.
 
I need the Android phone because I don't want to subscribe to Apple or Microsoft to be able to build and run my personal apps
 
Jem
Can't you side-load your apps on your own devices?
 
1:22 PM
android is cool enough
 
Jem
I've done that with the Win Store apps, thought the phone could too
 
Google does nasty things with it.
 
@Jem depends on the unlockability of the individual phone I believe
 
I don't think it's actually worth considering stuff like that if you think that for Android all you have to do is... put .apk on device, and run it
.apks are today's .jars
@Jem everyone listens to music on yt here
 
Jem
Yea, that's cool. I like the fact that the stuff I write for the windows desktop is practically the same code as the winphone. And they're moving closer and closer to Universal apps :)
 
1:24 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Like what?
 
Xeo
Damn I'm so sleepy. 5h are just not enough.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes what phone do you own?
@Xeo take a nap
 
Xeo
I wondef if I can get away with taking a nap by saying that it's for my back
 
@Jefffrey Galaxy S3.
 
don't be silly, robots interface with the mobile network directly :p
 
1:26 PM
he he
 
Xeo
tbh, all mobile OSs kinda suck
 
user1804599
5 hours ago, by rightfold
They don't follow SRP, which is why they fail.
 
@VáclavZeman This is a good description of some of the uglies: arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/…
 
@rightfold how can you sustain a market with a phone without internet?
@Xeo why?
 
@Jem to answer your previous question
 
user1804599
1:29 PM
@Jefffrey I don't know, and it is irrelevant.
 
I only look into the mid-range market because the performance is enough for me
 
user1804599
That everybody asks for crap doesn't mean it isn't crap.
 
@rightfold Yes, the smartphone market is obviously a big failure.
 
at first I thought Moto G was great but then I saw the Xperia SP for the same price; while it doesn't have Moto G's quad core, it has NFC, an aluminium body instead of plastic, an SD card slot and a better camera
plus Sony's custom music player (the walkman thingy) which has a lot of options over the stock player
 
I have yet to see an NFC enabled anything anywhere :v
 
1:31 PM
though it's still probably not as good as the third party players on the market
 
@melak47 there's a lot of BT speaker sets that pair over NFC
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes thanks :p
 
also you can send files over NFC
 
@BartekBanachewicz bah humbug, useless gadgets
 
Jem
1:32 PM
Well, my first time in SO chat.. this was fun :) I g2g.. bye all.
 
@melak47 Why do you think it's a useless feature? Have you tried it?
 
@melak47 the NFC is a nice feature for me because my projects revolve around hardware interacting with hardware and that's one extra thing I can experiment with :)
 
My Bluetooth stuff pairs just fine without NFC.
 
breaking the existing pair is meh though
If I were to buy another BT set I'd certainly buy one with NFC
 
@BartekBanachewicz not saying the feature is useless, I just don't like silly speaker gadgets :p
 
1:33 PM
OK, so I installed Flash player and watched a BBC clip..... 'Firefox has stopped'. What a surprise...
 
I regularly switch my headset between phone and desktop.
 
@melak47 wait, now you're trying to tell me that wireless speakers are gadgets?
 
@BartekBanachewicz wireless headphones I understand..but speakers? why?
 
@melak47 Because cables are evil.
 
@melak47 because speakers stand somewhere far when I am laying on my bed with my phone or tablet
I frequently watch videos or listen to music while doing stuff on a mobile device on my bed
of course I could keep a whole shebang of a PC or a UPnP media player, but pairing with BT speakers and firing up spotify is just so easier
 
1:36 PM
hm, ok. Still seems silly to me to buy BT enabled speakers, when a BT thingy you wire up to the speakers should be enough
 
Probably no one sells one because better monies elsewhere.
 
@melak47 and why is the second solution better?
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's flexible.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes they do sell BT audio receivers alright.
 
It leaves the full choice of speakers.
 
1:37 PM
@BartekBanachewicz bring your own speakers to work home :p
 
@melak47 I have around 6 speaker sets at home right now vOv
 
Won't ever go "OMG THESE SPEAKERS SO AWESOME I wish they made them in black Bluetooth"
 
haha
 
okay, that's a valid point. though when aiming for simplicity, an integrated solution is a clear win
well, modern A/V amplituners come with not only BT, but also Spotify built in directly so...
 
I hope they come with gold wifi/BT/NFC/whatever antennae. For the music quality, you know :p
 
Xeo
1:39 PM
> While it might not be an official requirement, being granted a Google apps license will go a whole lot easier if you join the Open Handset Alliance. The OHA is a group of companies committed to Android—Google's Android—and members are contractually prohibited from building non-Google approved devices. That's right, joining the OHA requires a company to sign its life away and promise to not build a device that runs a competing Android fork.
 
~quality~
 
Xeo
...
 
user1804599
And a Compact Cassette reader.
 
user1804599
For backwards-compatibility.
 
@melak47 if you want quality, you ~need~ gold cables
and a valve amp
and SACD
 
1:40 PM
@Xeo There's a reason why despite being "open" only Amazon can handle running a fork.
 
I'd like to see if people would buy gold antennae for wireless quality :p
 
they sure would
a lot of dumb people pay shitloads of gold pieces for audio equipment
 
@BartekBanachewicz Silver or superconductive - the only things to go for.
 
whilst I paid $12 for a pair of cables two days ago and they work just fine
 
I thought about using NFC to store private keys.
 
1:43 PM
@BartekBanachewicz electrons tend not to care how much you paid for your equipment.
 
We don't need no firebottle amps to get non-linearity and distortion, we can just hire cheaper musicians :)
 
But NFC tags in general are crap and quite unreliable and only the bigger ones can store a whole key. Pity, I think.
 
@Edward eh, 50/60 noise and EM fields do, though
@R.MartinhoFernandes the bigger ones are also nonstandard
@MartinJames hahah lol
 
@BartekBanachewicz They are de facto.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I wouldn't be so quick about that. There's a division into two camps (two chips manufacturers), and while the half supports it (samsung devices) the other half doesn't (Nexus devices)
 
1:46 PM
When things start being described as "MIFARE compatible", that's a clear sign that it has become a standard.
 
also it takes significantly more time to read the larger tag
also why the hell am I explaining you already know everything I know :/
 
Wouldn't be relevant for my purpose.
 
that's so suck.
 
And to be honest, it's not that long.
Reading a 4K tag takes less than 2 seconds.
 
such throughput
 
1:51 PM
Aha - setting the Flash player to fullscreen blows it up after ~20 seconds:(
 
Xeo
> Embrace, Extend, Extinguish
very fitting
So, how did that go with Google and being Evil™?
 
so yeah ladies, an uninitialize int is not undefined behavior, rather it contains an indeterminate value.
 
Xeo
reading from it is UB
 
reading it is certainly undefined behaviour
 
Xeo
it would be really weird if just leaving a variable uninitialized would yield UB
 
1:57 PM
> Operations involving indeterminate values may cause undefined behavior.
or may not :)
it's part of the undefined behavior guarantee
 
Xeo
assignment won't
reading will
 
@Xeo actually unsigned x; int y = x; will
 
Xeo
that's reading
 
while unsigned x; unsigned y = x; won't
 

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