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4:01 PM
@BartekBanachewicz feel is the keyword there. I't totally subjective and related to my experience. In particular with JS and Python, I know very little about the language and the people behind it. But I still feel it's somehow fragile for the very few things I've read about the language. Just tell me: what part of C++ that is not there for C backward compatibility, don't you like?
 
in C++ there's no way to say that something is equal to something. Every function is a computation that is run as a series of steps
 
I don't need such equations.
 
That is: assuming C++ to be a superset of C, {C++} - {C}
 
and frankly
if Haskell could solve equations for you, that would not be functional, that would be Prolog.
 
4:02 PM
@Jefffrey compilation model, all of the old cruft, lack of tooling.
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz That is not a problem.
 
@rightfold never said it is.
 
> that is not there for C backward compatibility
the compilation model is inherited from C
 
user1804599
Imperative programming is a great thing.
 
@Jefffrey so? You can introduce modules and still keep headers
 
4:03 PM
as well as the old cruft I presume
 
Apple did that.
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's far from conclusive as to whether or not they've actually been successful.
unless you mean in Objective-C.
instead of referring to the experimental implementation in Clang.
 
yeah, I meant Objective-C
 
cause I've never used ObjC so I can't really comment on what they did or did not do.
 
@BartekBanachewicz ObjC has modules?
 
4:04 PM
except
that every time I look at it, it looks a lot like they took C and desperately tried to turn it into Java.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I think they introduced them like, to "core"
@Jefffrey Also I couldn't care less about the reasons of why old cruft is still there.
 
user1804599
Objective-C is completely unlike Java.
 
@DeadMG s/Java/Smalltalk/ really
 
@DeadMG yeah, with emphasis on "desperately" :E
 
yeah, it bears very little resemblance to Java
 
user1804599
And about twelve years older. :V
 
hence desperately
 
@BartekBanachewicz Eh. If it's inheritance-everything dynamic-alloc-everything member-functions-everything then I think of that as Java-style even if Java took that shit from some other language.
 
@rightfold And also kinda shit.
 
user1804599
“Similar to Java” is not “tried to turn it into Java.”
 
4:06 PM
well, it pretty much is if you started with something that is very much not Java.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I wouldn't class Objective-C as "shiny" in any circumstance.
 
@BartekBanachewicz does it look like I care if you care or not about backward compatibility? It was a question to skip all that "C backward compatibility sucks" whining we all do every month.
 
user1804599
You cannot try to turn X into Java if Java does not exist yet.
 
user1804599
And finish long before Java exists.
 
@Jefffrey but you can't deny it's there if it's there. Either we talk about how good language is (in which case it all stands) or we are trying to defend it.
you know, I don't have that much against the language itself, to be fair with you
but the tooling and general approachability is a huge turnoff
 
4:08 PM
@rightfold You can. If your attempt wouldn't failed, then something called Java would start to exist. But it failed, so it didn't. :V
That's how you usually create things - they don't exist, until you turn some things into them :E
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not defending it. It's just boring to bash what we all know is wrong with good old C, because we literally do it every month. And I agree with it. I was wondering if you have something more to bash other than that "old cruft".
 
personally
 
user1804599
2 mins ago, by rightfold
And finish long before Java exists.
 
I just hate the whole shebang bullshit of writing anything in C++
 
I can't blame anyone for saying that C sucks and all the parts of C++ that they inherited from C or had to do because of C inheritance sucks.
because it's totally true.
 
4:09 PM
@rightfold finishing creating something else, hence failing to turn it into Java :p
 
user1804599
C++ does not support shebangs.
I think you are looking for Perl.
 
and the way that people take C libraries and either tell you to use them directly or write shitty wrappers
 
I simply personally don't have a great problem with handling it.
 
@rightfold lol
 
but
 
user1804599
4:10 PM
butt
 
that's why I built Wide.
 
user1804599
Wide is butt
3
 
Butt is wide
2
 
@BartekBanachewicz, can you bash C++ without mentioning " C "?
 
@BartekBanachewicz been to prison as of recent?
 
4:11 PM
@ScarletAmaranth lol
 
: D
 
@Jefffrey I don't get what you are trying to convey now. Is the idea of C++ language OK? Yes, it is. Is what we have as C++ available nowadays nice and easy to use/write in? Hell no.
 
user1804599
Yes, it is.
 
At least not compared to the alternatives, because of course it's easier that say 10 years ago
 
not mentioning running other people's things written in C++, unless they provide binaries :E
 
4:12 PM
using a crappy C library from C++ is infinitely better than using a C library from C#
 
I prefere using crappy C libraries from Lua or Haskell anyday because people create better wrappers
of course you can argue that if you don't have a wrapper, you're shit stuck anyway, but in general there are wrappers for everything I am personally using
 
firstly, that assumes that "people" who are as capable and competent as you have already found a need to use this library and spent a reasonable amount of time on wrapping it.
and secondly
 
@DeadMG And this is true most of the time IME
 
that assumes that the language semantics provide for nice wrappers
 
@DeadMG which both of the aforementioned do.
 
4:14 PM
er, no.
when using external C resources, RAII or no dice.
 
Both Lua and Haskell have language level support for C FFI.
 
user1804599
bracket works fine. No need for RAII.
 
neither of which is RAII.
 
And hint: they are both GCed.
 
user1804599
It depends completely on the programming language.
 
4:15 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Which is not going to collect my external C resources.
 
@DeadMG RAII only makes sense if you don't have a GC.
@DeadMG what? Of course it is.
if I create, say, a VBO from haskell, GC will clean it.
for Lua I'd probably need to add the GC handler, but it's very possible in general.
 
user1804599
You need to set a finaliser in Haskell too.
 
... interesting approach.
 
user1804599
But the OpenGL library does that for you.
 
yeah, that.
 
4:17 PM
yeah, I was just thinking about finalizers
 
user1804599
And for non-memory resources like files, Haskell uses bracket.
 
is using from python or c# RAII?
 
user1804599
And wrappers for bracket so you can’t make mistakes as a user.
 
@BartoszKP I'd just call it "scoped lifetime"
 
user1804599
@BartoszKP Python has with, not using. with is more flexible.
 
4:17 PM
execute-around is nowhere near as good as as RAII.
 
@rightfold oh yeah, with. why more flexible? less letters? :V
 
user1804599
I have never seen any code not written by total noobs that omits using/with where it should be used. And in C++ noobs will use new anyway so you’re still screwed there regardless of whether or not you have RAII. And even if you forget using/with, the GC will still rescue you just in case. It’s a non-issue really.
 
of course GCs aren't the perfect solution everywhere, prime example being mobiles
 
the GC has absolutely no obligation to rescue you at all.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not trying to convey nothing. I'm just curiously asking if you can bash anything that C++ actually introduced that is not related with C. There's no point I'm trying to make, I swear.
 
user1804599
4:19 PM
@BartoszKP you can get the exception and stuff in the exit handler.
 
there is no guarantee that any object in C# will be finalized.
 
and my internet was down
 
user1804599
Ruby has another interesting approach using begin/ensure and yield.
 
@Jefffrey you can start at partial function specializations and go from there.
 
for something like files you could argue that the OS will clean it up for you on process exit so if the GC doesn't clean it up the OS will.
 
4:20 PM
@BartekBanachewicz what?
 
user1804599
We have been running on such software for years and everything has always worked fine.
 
but not everything is like that.
 
@Jefffrey you can't partially specialize functions in C++.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Why would you want to? Overloads not good enough?
 
@rightfold using doesn't swallow exceptions ;o, if that's what you're suggesting?
 
4:21 PM
@rightfold Where do I using my member variables?
 
@BartekBanachewicz and where would that be useful exactly?
 
@Jefffrey everytime you see a templated struct with the sole member being an operator() really, for which you can find numerous samples I guess
 
posted on March 18, 2014 by Herb Sutter

I’m really excited about this event! Note that the first 100 registrations get a reduced rate – pasting from the “registration” page: Regular registration fee is $995 but the first 100 attendees can take advantage of Super Early Bird registration and pay only $695. After that, the Early Bird registration fee is $845 and is […]

 
@Jefffrey I remember once needing that :P
 
user1804599
@BartoszKP Look at the documentation of with. It explains its capabilities.
 
4:22 PM
Robot or Xeo could probably provide tons of stuff for that case.
 
user1804599
using is merely syntactic sugar around { var x = …; try { … } finally { x.Dispose(); } }.
 
I know what it is
 
user1804599
@DeadMG You implement Dispose, noob.
 
@rightfold And this covers me every time I re-assign that member variable?
 
user1804599
You cannot using data members.
 
user1804599
4:23 PM
lol mutable objects.
 
or place it into a list?
 
user1804599
You’re screwed there regardless.
 
this being my fundamental point.
 
@BartekBanachewicz are you implying that we use template functors because of the lack of partial specialization support for functions?
 
that using only covers a tiny fraction of useful cases.
 
4:24 PM
@Jefffrey in many cases, yes.
but again, I don't think that C++ is so oh very bad
 
@rightfold interesting, didn't know about __exit__, thanks
 
there are way more languages that are more fucked up
 
@BartekBanachewicz I doubt I've ever seen such a "workaround".
 
I've seen it from time to time.
 
thing is, even if the C++ is less fucked up than say JS, it doesn't mean it will be nicer to use
and for me it hell fucking no isn't
of course it depends on the project size, type etc a lot
but since we were talking about personal choices, which in my case amount to hobby projects...
in case he closes the source again
 
4:28 PM
well
you can always write some Wide tools, I ship my compiler as a library :P
 
I don't think I want to go back to imperative programming for my hobby projects anyway
Hobby projects in general are stuff that you usually see fast and thus want results fast
like prototypes, proof of concepts...
at least for me
and C++ was just making that unbearably hard and tedious.
 
I see.
 
with Haskell I can just cabal install x and get the really good quality APIs for everything I might want to do
and its OpenGL API is really, really better than everything I've seen in C++
there are some annoying nuances with floating-point number types and matrices, but in general it's stress free
 
yeey CppCon only 1k entrance fee
there had better be free sandwiches, massages and blowjobs
 
heh, see, Meet.JS was free and had free beer :)
 
4:36 PM
because noone would have come otherwise
 
lol
 
@BartekBanachewicz OGL API is a C API, rather than a C++ API, let's face it.
 
OGL is language-agnostic
 
stl is language agnostic
 
I haven't actually checked, but I'm pretty sure the specification defines an API that is essentially a C API.
 
4:38 PM
altough I am not sure how the global context has to be expressed (i.e. if it has to be global)
@DeadMG I don't know what "essentially" means here, but no part of GL spec has any mention of C
 
@BartekBanachewicz it's written to trivially map directly to C? (Prepend a gl on every name, and you're basically done)
 
@jalf I'd go the robot way and say "irrelevant" here.
 
Fine by me. :) I have no idea what you guys are even talking about :p
 
language wars
 
but the GL spec is pretty much designed to map directly to C. They won't suddenly adopt new apis which couldn't be expressed in C
 
4:43 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Is there a haskell binding to LLVM and Clang?
 
the problems with GL API are also irrelevant to C
 
I predict dx12 is gonna blow everybody's mind (no I actually don't)
 
@ScarletAmaranth You mean 'will cause mental illness'?
 
@MartinJames yeah I can see that as a likely outcome
 
@DeadMG llvm-general-pure and llvm-general, yes. Dunno about Clang, prolly too.
 
4:44 PM
@MartinJames on multiple platforms!
 
@melak47 ahahahahhaahah... DX now works on ALL (microsoft) platforms!
 
it already did
 
that's what I am mocking :)
 
@melak47 LOL - I now realise, since the Java disasters, what 'cross-platform' means.
 
"runs across all platforms in the range [x,y)"? :p
nice:
 
user1804599
4:52 PM
@BartekBanachewicz available libraries, community and tools are extremely important.
 
I was going to chat, but I see that everyone is absent.
 
user1804599
Of course.
 
user1804599
When a mod enters the stage, everybody leaves.
 
user1804599
Google Absence
 
FIVE-O FIVE-O!!!
 
4:54 PM
@RobertHarvey don't worry, if you just start an argument, people will come back immediately :)
 
no they won't
I just went to make food
 
Wanna fight?
OK.... I'll start one:) I think that the game jams should allow proprietary libraries that have been supplied to a developer as part of a commercial general-purpose IDE, ie are available to anyone who buys the IDE.
 
@MartinJames will we be able to run that game?
like, can you distribute those libraries?
 
OTOH, I'm hungry, so I'll go to make food:)
 
5:09 PM
because even if you "participate", people should be able to run your game obviously
 
I think we should allow non-open-source libraries as long as the code for the game is provided (excluding library code) and binaries for Linux, Mac, Windows are provided.
if that makes any sense
 
@BartekBanachewicz Some binaries are redistributable, not all. I would, of course, supply an EXE and/or an installer, and publish freely the game code that is not covered by the IDE EULA, ie. all my stuff.
 
so erm... numberphile... are we going to forbid talking about that episode today?
 
@MartinJames ah so you link statically to them
 
yes
 
5:12 PM
yeah I kinda stopped caring for that opensource bit
like it doesn't really give us anything and the games are the most important thing
so as long as you people make nice games on the jam and we all have fun, let's go for that
 
@MartinJames if someone has to pay to be able to run your game, no.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes. There would be one EXE, maybe an installer/uninstaller for it, and that's it for binaries. My source code, surely, yes.
 
please no installers :)
 
@BartekBanachewicz Installers are the best! We need moar installers
 
@BartekBanachewicz oh that has to be a rule
 
5:13 PM
@jalf especially when you have an install an installer to install the program
 
@thecoshman OH NO! No pay! Install, try, blast it as rubbish, uninstall or, if you want, keep.
 
I'm looking at you, Secure Download Manager
 
I wonder if MSI is turing-complete. It's certainly complex enough. Could probably write a game in that :D
 
I've just abused our printer
and printed out the RPG adventure text in booklet format and maps from it on A3
 
@MartinJames no installers!
 
5:14 PM
@thecoshman OK, not bothered. EXE, then. Actually less work:)
 
no windows!
 
No computers!
 
no games!
oh... a bit far maybe
 
just generally no. No anything
 
no!
 
5:16 PM
n
 
@Griwes LOL! 'are you fucking kidding me?' seems like an unfortunate response.
 
@BartekBanachewicz What is that?
 
5 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
and printed out the RPG adventure text in booklet format and maps from it on A3
 
5:19 PM
@Jefffrey Bronze-age turbomachinery schematic.
 
gah, it's clearly a dungeon map
Tomorrow's my C++ talk: "I see a monad in your future," http://nwcpp.org/march-2014.html
 
@BartekBanachewicz It appears to have pipes, compressors, combustors, turbines and an exhaust.
 
@Griwes that's a quote from a tv show
 
man, cppreference is so awesome
 
@BartekBanachewicz He's making a bomb!!!
 
5:21 PM
hmm I was supposed to discuss some playtrough stuff with two of the players
 
@thecoshman lol
 
one of them left the house 2 days ago and still didn't come back
 
@thecoshman Anyone listening? ...........
 
@BartekBanachewicz aaaaaand I still don't have any idea of what you are talking about :>
 
@MartinJames vOv just point out he is Islamic and the NSA will rape his ass
 
5:22 PM
@Jefffrey wait you've never played RPGs?
 
no
is that bad?
 
o.O
I subtract 100 nerd points from gryffindor
 
@BartekBanachewicz Hes clearly from Hufflepuff =/
 
haha
I always wanted to be in Ravenclaw
but this stupid hat would prolly put me in gryffindor anyway
 
bro you have to talk to the hat
 
5:24 PM
yeah I know
 
user1804599
Oh cool.
 
user1804599
Python 3.4 has PBKDF2 in its standard library.
 
use scrypt
 
user1804599
No.
 
user1804599
5:25 PM
I use PBKDF2.
 
@Jefffrey Paper RPGs are played with players and a DM or GM (Dungeon Master or Game Master, respectively).
@Borgleader wat
just wat
 
why use PBKDF2 over scrypt?
 
@BartekBanachewicz i need new pants
 
user1804599
lolwot
 
user1804599
@nightcracker Because I don’t know about scrypt.
 
user1804599
5:28 PM
How is hash = b'\x9a\r\xe3\xa1\xc3\xfd#\x0b\x0b\xdd\xc3hP\xd3\x07\x03' syntax error. :S
 
user1804599
Oh wait.
 
works fine for me
 
user1804599
It’s in a doctest.
 
user1804599
And doctests are inside of string literals. :P
 
user1804599
So I need to double escape it.
 
user1804599
5:29 PM
Or add an r in front of the string literal.
 
man, making a proper container with custom allocator support is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO painful
 
Top-class gimme de codez:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22486043/how-to-get-c-program-file-with-source-code-industry-level
 
@Borgleader it's pretty goddamn huge
 
a C++11 made it even worse with all the tricky stuff surrounding moving allocators
 
@Jefffrey and that GM has the adventure text (so basically playtrough scenario) with maps. Some GMs write their own scenarios, some use the ready-made ones
 
5:32 PM
@BartekBanachewicz No more plugin for web games, sick graphics improvements + all the other shits. I'm really really impressed.
 
@Borgleader Global Illum. anyone? o.O
altough UnityScript is the most terrible shit ever
 
eh I use C# with Unity
 
@BartekBanachewicz and the purpose it to play a story with your friends?
 
yeah I guess that makes sense
@Jefffrey mhm. They act like the characters in game, and the DM is resposible for the environment, non-player characters, additional stuff like ability tests etc.
 
@Borgleader I doubt the web is ready for 3d yet
 
5:34 PM
The players tell what they want to do, and the GM tells them what really happens
@Jefffrey it's getting there fast enough. Cue Citadel demo.
 
@BartekBanachewicz ok, but who wins?
 
user1804599
Oh cool.
 
user1804599
python.org is redesigned.
 
say what?
 
@Jefffrey everyone, if they're having fun.
@Borgleader artillery? I've heard about it. Wasn't that Lua?
 
5:35 PM
> The Artillery Platform uses HTML5 technology (notably: JavaScript, WebGL and WebSockets) ...
 
ah that's just WebGL, so I guess JS
yerp
 
Meh.. more woofing, now what?
 
@Borgleader I meant for serious 3d graphics that plays at 70FPS+ on an average computer
@BartekBanachewicz so there's no winner, basically.
 
has anyone here ever made a proper Container for C++11 with all bells 'n whistles?
 
@Jefffrey Ok so by "the web is not ready for 3d" you mean "It cant run Crysis in a browser", thats a pretty narrow definition of ready for 3d =/
 
user1804599
5:38 PM
% python3 --version
Python 2.7.5
2
 
@Borgleader it can't even run Call of Duty 4 with acceptable FPS on an average computer
 
user1804599
Lolwot. I’m so confused.
 
that's what I meant
 
@Jefffrey 70FPS+? Does your screen support 70Hz refresh?
 
@nightcracker Actually, you want to use bcrypt ;)
 
5:40 PM
@Jefffrey well, you might look at it another way; if the party dies before finishing the adventure, they "lose".
 
@NikiC fuck no
 
@BartekBanachewicz sounds nice, not really for me though
 
@rightfold that's the 3 part paython version, python2 is 2.7, python 4 is 2.7.5.0
silly you
 
@nightcracker I've implemented someshit basing on iterator facade lately, but that probably isn't "all bells and whistles"
 
@nightcracker Why no?
 
5:41 PM
@Jefffrey well, if you haven't tried, how do you know if it's for you? ;)
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm talking about move-constructors and whether or not you should copy/move the associated allocator =/
 
@nightcracker that's a way better defined question :P
 
@NikiC bcrypt is based on the decently dated Blowfish, and is not memory-hard
 
@Borgleader mm, can;t wait to see UDK4 :)
 
@BartekBanachewicz 75 actually IIRC
 
5:43 PM
@ScarletAmaranth eh, you can't create AAA games like in atari ages nowadays :(
 
> Of course, to be on the absolutely safe side, I am required to tell you that any improper hardware configuration could potentially lead to explosions, death, and loss of life, limb, or property, with no limitation (worst case, your computer catches on fire and causes your entire house to burn down, and then your house catches other houses on fire in the neighborhood, creating an enormous conflagration and billions of dollars of damage....
 
@BartekBanachewicz because I'm not good at talking and/or social interaction
especially talking
 
@Jefffrey And you think anyone here is?
(I mean aside from @JerryCoffin)
 
@Borgleader no, but I think it's kind of a required skill to make such a game work nicely
and of course the robot can talk
 
@nightcracker Memory-hard (in the scrypt sense of the word) means that the algorithm is difficult to a constant memory-time tradeoff
 
5:45 PM
he went talking about the rule of zero (not sure if that was the topic tbh) in front of 20+ people.
I could have never done that
 
I went to an MTG Draft last night, I got my ass handed to me :(
But I had fun anyway :D
 
I stopped playing as... mmm, Ravnica came out, if that's even a correct name xD
 
@NikiC Well it means you can't employ ASIC's and GPU's to bruteforce :)
 
@nightcracker It doesn't tell you much about how memory hard it actually is. E.g. to current knowledge scrypt at 16 MB and bcrypt at 4 KB are at the "GPU and CPU are equally fast" level
 
@NikiC you're going to have to quantify that better
 
5:47 PM
@ScarletAmaranth Return to Ravnica
?
 
@Borgleader sounds like a thing :) It was sometime around IX came out... not long after Kamigawa stuff
 
@nightcracker For numbers, see for example openwall.com/lists/crypt-dev/2014/03/13/1
 
@Jefffrey it's more interactive storytelling. One guy tells the story, and the rest control the main characters
 
@NikiC I see no comparison with bcrypt here
 
posted on March 18, 2014 by Eric Battalio

From cppcon : Registration is now open for CppCon 2014 to be held September 7–12, 2014 at the Meydenbauer Center in Bellevue, Washington, USA. The conference will start with the keynote by Bjarne Stroustrup titled " Make Simple Tasks Simple!...(read more)

 
5:52 PM
@nightcracker yes, those are just the numbers for when scrypt has GPU/CPU of about 1
 
yeeey 1k for CppCon
 
@nightcracker For bcrypt see openwall.com/lists/crypt-dev/2013/12/31/1 (in particular the presentation linked at the bottom)
 
@NikiC GPU's aren't the issue though
it's dedicated hardware
but the main reason why I trust scrypt more over bcrypt isn't the memory-hardness, but the fact it uses salsa20 for mixing
 
user1804599
doctest is so nice.
 
doctest is aids =/
 

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