« first day (1135 days earlier)      last day (3808 days later) » 

12:08 PM
@Ell magic fairy dust? That's usually the explanation IME
 
@Ell You don't. Rendering knows about simulation (but not vice versa).
 
Strewth, it's midday! I gotta get ready for a bonzer walkabout to hit the turps. A'll take me bitzer round the bar for a few ice-cold tinnies.
 
holy shit
practically every time I speak to you, you talk about how you plan to get wasted immediatley.
also, 75 pounds
 
@rightfold That is an interesting definition of "learning something new". "I tried to do X but when I encountered something new I had no idea what to do and gave up"
 
his dog is called Bailey, go figure ...
 
12:17 PM
@DeadMG Mate, this Pommie's dryer than a dead dingo's donger. If I dunna hit the Fourecks, all' be coding snakes in the grass:(
 
Ell
@DeadMG Right. But I feel like if I keep them separate, there will be two copies of all the data structures - one for simulation and one for drawing
And then there is networking
 
@Ell Rendering has to know about the simulations data structures.
 
Ell
@DeadMG Yeah I know
But it needs to associate more data with them
 
like what?
 
Ell
12:19 PM
like position of vertices n shiz or whatever
 
wat no.
 
Ell
lets say the simulation is 2d but the rendering is 3d
 
that's totally not how rendering works.
unless you're an utter moron.
oh, but you do have to know what model and stuff to use, I guess.
 
Ell
@DeadMG that's what I mean really
 
well
 
Ell
12:21 PM
and position of the model in 3d space
 
er, no, the simulation wants that data too.
 
Ell
Not if the simulation is 2d, right?
 
no.
 
what's the point in doing 3d rendering of something that is 2d?
 
Ell
Why not?
@jalf To make it look nicer
 
12:22 PM
consider something like
I dunno
 
Ell
like torchlight :3
 
a chess game.
 
Ell
yeah
 
even if you wanted to render the models and stuff in 3D
 
12:23 PM
the reality is, virtually every position always has the same Z co-ordinate.
which is just above the board.
 
Ell
right
 
so unless you're animating them in some way moving them from place to place
the renderer doesn't need to be told what the Z co-ordinate is.
and even if you do that, the renderer should be able to figure out the correct position given the time.
 
Ell
@DeadMG yeah that's my point, the simulation doesn't need to know the z coordinate
 
and the renderer doesn't need to store it either.
 
Ell
I guess
 
12:26 PM
but in general, you're right- the renderer might want to store additional per-unit state.
you can of course just associate it- say, unordered_map<Unit*, RenderState> or somesuch.
 
Ell
That makes sense
But how would the render state know about updates in the simulation?
 
just query the unit state when you render it.
 
Ell
Would it iterate through all of the simulation structures? Or would it be better to use an event based system?
 
or if you're obsessive, install callbacks the renderer can subscribe to.
 
@Ell depends on how you're rendering. One simple approach is "it doesn't". When it is time to render a frame, you just go through the simulation state and fetch all the data you need
doesn't matter when it was last updated
Anything else is effectively just a kind of caching (the renderer gets notified when something changes, and records the new state in an internal cache so it doesn't have to ask again later)
and as a general rule, caching adds complexity
don't do it unless you need to
 
12:32 PM
Oo found the weird UB problem ... had a variable called ch1, another called ch. Instead of passing ch1 I passed in ch :/ ... the weird thing is that ch is an object, ch1 is an unichar but the program did not crash. With that said this is in objective C.
 
Ell
@jalf I guess
 
@Telkitty well, obj-c is pretty weird. :)
also, you changed your name back? :p
 
yeah 1 month expired ... finally
Had a few bugs in that newly written routine :/
 
@jalf Yeah. Any language that does not issue a 'Type mismatch' error for that and refuse to compile is not worthy of the name.
 
but static typing is so slow and overhead and gets in my way only dnaymic is fast
 
12:43 PM
@CatPlusPlus Yeah, right :)
 
@MartinJames Eh, I disagree with that. I have no problem with dynamically typed languages. But successfully compiling and running and just falling into UB is pretty bad
 
I don't think it's UB
Obj-C just ignores non-existent methods by default
 
Tell that to TelkUser17.
 
user1804599
@Telkitty -Wall -Wextra -Werror -pedantic vOv
 
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus not with ARC enabled.
 
12:46 PM
I guess in a true message-passing language, code like this would be legal and well-defined (and just have no effect). No harm in sending a message to an object which doesn't understand the message.
 
It's utterly stupid
 
there were actually warnings, but compilation passed and program worked ... but debugging output was incorrect
 
user1804599
Warnings don’t exist.
 
@CatPlusPlus shrug
@Telkitty "incorrect" as in "not what I expected", or "not the behavior guaranteed by the language spec"?
 
user1804599
You have to fix warnings anyway so you can just as well make them errors.
 
12:48 PM
Ahahaha so what do you do if you do want to use that 'feature'?
 
Disable warnings with #pragmas around the call?
 
@jalf Warning such as 'variableX may not respond to initWithChar'
In this case it does, so the warning was inaccurate, thus I ignore such a lot
 
user1804599
Make initWithChar: available to the call-site.
 
@Telkitty So it was actually neither UB nor incorrect? It did exactly what it was supposed to, which was just not what you wanted it to do?
 
12:50 PM
:lol:
 
user1804599
@Telkitty you’re insanely bad at programming.
 
I don't think anyone here are insanely bad at programming. Just sayin'
 
user1804599
Always assume the compiler understands your code better than you do.
 
positive attitude 4evaz
 
Y'all insanely bad at picking not-broken tools
 
12:52 PM
well I have 10 of thousands of people using my insanely bad written programs, I got the fuzzy feelings that insanely bad programmers usually get
@jalf initWithChar was a constructor I have written for this class, initialize the object with an Unichar
 
In fairness, I often get the impression that there's a strong correlation between programs being badly written, and them being widely used...
 
but instead I passed in an object to it, for some reasons the app did not crash
 
All software is shit
[A calm reaction to MLP's season 4 premiere] http://t.co/BjGVw7sNCQ
 
It's like the compiler is killing himself each time in order to protect you from making a mistake. How many friends do you have that would do that?
 
@Telkitty Sure, but it's just a message being sent to the object. And the object ignores messages it doesn't understand. You think of it as a constructor, but that's just convention. Fundamentally, it isn't, it's just a message
 
12:54 PM
@jalf because perfect programs are hard to build and most people gave up mid way
 
...and most people are terrible
 
Much easier to write bad, but working programs
 
@Telkitty quite possibly, yeah
 
RT @deliciousbees: “Xbox, upload my epic fail while I find noms for my feels #yolo #generationremix” http://t.co/QQoyxUyHkO
btw did I post this i don't remember
is human privilege a thing
 
Ooh, someone must have bumped my functors answer on SO. Got a bunch more upboats
 
Ell
12:56 PM
@jalf Caching is necessary in networking though really isn't it, so if I'm adding caching (ie installing callbacks) for networking, then it should be no more effort for rendering because it will share a common interfaec
 
Well this is Version 3.00, I am trying to make it much better than the other 2 :p
 
@Ell Does not compute
 
Caching is not buffering also does not follow
 
"I might need to use caching at some point in the future, and therefore it is no more effort to also use caching here and now"
 
Ell
I mean, if I'm going to use caching with networking, I may as well use caching with rendering
otherwise I'm implementing two different systems
 
12:58 PM
Does not follow still
 
Wat
 
@Ell installing callbacks as a way to implement cache?
I don't understand.
 
Using caching a lot is more complex than using caching a little, which is more complex than not using caching at all
 
Speaking of shit software, my Firefox sometimes die on downloading PDFs
 
And keeping two caches is more complex than not keeping two caches
 
12:59 PM
How bad you have to be
 
so unless you intend for your renderer and network code to use the same cache, that makes zero sense
 
jesus
 
Ell
@jalf I did intend for that really
 
(Also I don't agree that networking should be considered caching)
 
1:00 PM
@Ell Btw, remember that quote about the only two hard problems in computer science?
2
 
exchanging data between two independent systems is not the same as caching
 
Ell
@jalf I meant that I should only send deltas over network as opposed to the whole game state each fram
 
That's not caching
At all
 
@Ell So you're saying that instead of the renderer just pulling data out of the simulation, you should have a cache pulling data out of the simulation and the renderer pulling data out of the cache? And that doing so is not more complex?
 
1:01 PM
A jpeg is a cached bmp.
2
 
And copying the game state for rendering is just silly
 
Ell
when I said caching
 
Cache a falling star...
 
When you're doing 60 view updates per second, pull model makes much more sense than push
 
Ell
@jalf I'm saying instead of the renderer pulling data out of the simulation and the network system being informed of changes, I'll get both the network system and the renderer to be informed of changes
 
1:02 PM
Because push is used to avoid unnecessary view updates
@Ell But you can just have the reactor push updates through network and then initiate rendering that uses pull
 
Keep It Simple, Stupid. "I may at some unknown point in the future need to do something that somewhat resembles caching" does not imply that "there will be zero added complexity if I here and now implement caching between the renderer and the simulation it is rendering". You have no guarantee that (1) you'll ever get around to the networking stuff, (2) that if you do, it will benefit from a cache, and (3) that if it does, that the cache you implement now will be suitable for that as well
 
There's no need to unify this, because there's no added benefit
 
@Ell Hopefully your renderer and network system do not need to know about the same changes
what you need to send to other clients is very different from what the renderer needs to know
 
What game is that anyway
 
Ell
@jalf Why? the renderer only needs to be informed about simulation changes doesn't it?
Like the other clients do
@CatPlusPlus hypothetical
 
1:05 PM
Hypothetical doesn't cut it
 
Ell
any game, just idk how people decouple graphics/network/simulation
 
There's no one true way (tm) for all games
 
@Ell I think a network stream would be a nice way to get continuous updates. But I don't know if this is possible in the browser.
 
@Ell The renderer needs to know about the stuff that should be drawn on the screen and how it should be drawn, and nothing else. Other clients need to know what is going on in the game, so they can keep their entire simulation in sync
 
In lock-stepped RTS you'd be sending only inputs through the network
Not any simulation state
 
1:06 PM
(but they have zero interest in the renderer-specific details, which they will generate themselves, from their local simulation)
 
In FPS you'll be sending inputs and sync every now and then
Depends on whether client is thin or thick
Depends on where the authority is
 
@CatPlusPlus No syncing at all?
 
You can't just consider design for "any" game, because there are differing requirements
@StackedCrooked I don't know really
 
Look at it like this: you can either have the renderer pull exactly the information it needs, when it needs it, and then extend the system later if and when you need it, or you can add an entire new subsystem whose responsibility it is to essentially keep a copy of the simulation because you think that some day you might need that.
 
I think inputs might be enough; if client is desynced then it'll be sending a lot of invalid inputs
 
1:09 PM
"Do I want to do extra work which serves no purpose currently?"
 
Ell
@jalf fair enough
 
Many programmers have this compulsion to implement caching everywhere.
 
Coincidentally! this is also why ~~patterns~~ are essentially useless cargoculting.txt
Because blanket design decisions with no consideration of specific requirements just do not work
 
Ell
@StackedCrooked yeah, it just feels like iterating over all the necessary state which may not have changed is wrong
 
You're rendering everything anyway
 
Ell
1:17 PM
although I'm using "caching" incorrectly again
 
You don't stop rendering because nothing has changed
 
Ell
Right
 
Every frame is constructed from scratch
 
@Ell You can optimize later. (Maybe it will turn out that the bottleneck is elsewhere.)
 
the reality is, there's very little meaningful renderer state that can be saved from frame to frame.
 
1:19 PM
Otherwise you hit the problem of determining what changed, and where on screen stuff should be redrawn, and to avoid tearing and other stuff you need to know the geometrical relations and blah blah blah it's just easier to render everything that user sees
(Assuming 3D; it's bit easier with 2D, but still)
And besides with modern effects always something changes from frame to frame
 
user1804599
> [|"";"asdas";""|] :> seq<string> |> Seq.skipWhile (fun l -> String.IsNullOrEmpty(l)) |> Seq.map (fun s-> printf "line:%s" s) |> ignore
 
user1804599
lol fail.
 
user1804599
Seq.map is lazy.
 
user3010322
1:38 PM
@Ell as a bonus, I can tell you that I know for a fact D3D ensures optimal state switching (on the API level) by demanding all drivers return the same state object if you pass it a -- for example -- BlendState that is exactly the same as the one that is already in use.
 
user3010322
However, I have no idea how BlendState and stuff is communicated through OpenGL. I was under the impression that you set the functions on the bound textures or other things and the texture itself carries the state, rather than the actual Graphics State Machine.
 
AFAIK, the blendstate is set to the device, not the texture.
 
user3010322
It might be even more optimal, because since you have to set all the individual state with multiple function calls, OpenGL can optimally store the microstate and switch on that, where as D3D always makes you compare and swap the whole BlendState rather than the individual pieces.
 
user3010322
This, of course, is just grasping at straws. In the end, everytime you render, you set the state to something known, and then change it as necessary from your known set of values.
 
user3010322
@DeadMG True, but IIRC things like SamplerState (texture wrap, etc.) are properties of the Texture, rather than of a specific sampler slot.
 
user3010322
1:43 PM
The implementers of togl actually mentioned that they prefer the D3D way of handling samplers (making it a device-specific state), because then you can do things like set a specific kind of sampler to each slot and then just throw textures into those slots and get the desired wrapping / filtering for that slot.
 
user3010322
If I remember what they said correctly, anyways.
 
user3010322
It's been months since I've watched the presentation.
 
user3010322
Is there a .ignore file that both Hg and Git respect?
 
Yes
Well, no
 
user3010322
Or do I really have to port my .hgignore to .gitignore (albeit with just a rename) to get it to stick?
 
1:46 PM
Yes
 
user3010322
Ah. Okay.
 
Repos are rarely both hg and git
 
user3010322
I'm doing a switch to github.
 
You'd have to rename .hgignore anyway
 
user3010322
Because having to manually support Mercurual in VS 2013 myself put a sour taste in my mouth for that flavor of repo.
 
1:47 PM
VCS plugins in VS are rather primitive
I just use SourceTree or the thing directly
 
user3010322
Yeah, I moved to SourceTree
 
user3010322
Interface is mostly the same both ways, not too many differences in SourceTree, which is nice.
 
Then what do you care?
 
user3010322
Being able to see checkmarks, locked symbols, or rewrites from the Solution Explorer is nice
 
user3010322
Also calling up diffs from the solution explorer is nice.
 
user3010322
1:48 PM
Also, Github for Windows
 
user3010322
Basically, tools for git >>>> tools for hg (windows)
 
Not really
 
user3010322
=_=
 
user3010322
I can't create .[something] files in windows explorer.
 
GH client was extremely bad last time I tried it
I don't use Explorer
 
user3010322
1:51 PM
GH client is pretty bad, but it does allow me to easily get and read repo stuff. Also, I'm going to be sticking my head in Academia soon again, so. Github is coming my way no matter what I do. =/
 
Uh but you're using SourceTree anyway...?
 
user3010322
You wouldn't believe the conniption people have when I tell them that maybe I should invite them to my private repo on Bitbucket.
 
user3010322
"But Github Opensource Man" :words:
 
user3010322
@CatPlusPlus I use both interchangeably. Github for Windows also lets me see repos I haven't downloaded (since it's tied to my GH account, not necessarily just my Filesystem).
 
user3010322
Really, GH client is just a fancy cloning tool for me. <_>
 
user3010322
1:57 PM
Hm.
 
user3010322
Including dependencies,
 
user3010322
2106 files in the repo.
 
user3010322
Not the worst ever.
 
user3010322
@melak47 You alive?
 
user3010322
Also, too many people with m in there names, it's so hard to get to melak. :c
 
user3010322
2:02 PM
Etienne does rather regular posts to his blog. They're actually somewhat fun to read every now and then.
 
@ThePhD Type more than one letter
 
Ell
async io in ruby is painful
 
Everything in Ruby is painful
 
user3010322
@CatPlusPlus But... but :effort:
 
Ell
what about printing a message? :3
that's pretty painless
puts "Hello world"
 
user3010322
2:03 PM
If I keep sending messages to melak, it should cycle him up on the list of people I want to send pings to.
 
user3010322
It should keep track of that in an integer, which decays over time (~5 minutes to decay 1 conversation preference stack)
 
Or just not ping him 1000 times
 
user3010322
Conversation Preference buff is initially applied +1 for the first direct ping, then +1 for each of every 2 message until it is greater than all other conversation buffs you have for other individuals.
 
Or you know, copy it to clipboard
 
user3010322
Too slow.
 
2:11 PM
Write a new client for this well documented pro- oh
 
user3010322
:3
 
user3010322
Well, we'll just write a new client with our own undocumented protocol
 
user3010322
And then we can all get into a fight about which is better!
 
user3010322
Lounge<Chat> <3
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus is lounge<chat> making any progress?
 
2:14 PM
You can just check the goddamn repo stop asking me every 2 days
Ugh I also need to do my seminar presentation
Stupid bullshit
 
user3010322
Arrrgh
 
user3010322
I want this to push via SSH.
 
Ell
I'll take that as a no
 
user3010322
How do I select the pushstyle
 
user3010322
for this repo? @__@
 
2:16 PM
Change the remote address
 
user3010322
Ooh, I don't even have to get rid of the .git
 
was GL_POLYGON removed in 3.3 ?
 
2:31 PM
Isn't that not recommended?
 
user3010322
@Rapptz So, it lookslike Lia can work with VC 12
 
user3010322
BUT, you sprinkled constexpr everywhere D:<
 
@Pawnguy7 I don't know but I need to draw me some polygons
 
@A.H. Hrm. I have no idea. I just thought it was part of direct mode, but I might be wrong.
 
2:36 PM
fuck it I will just do it with triangles
 
I think that is recommended :D
 
@A.H. love triangles?
 
@StackedCrooked well I settled for them , but they are not bad
 
If I use std::find
And the element I want is the last element.
Do you just tell by comparing them?
Never mind.
 
are you asking if it does a linear search ?
 
2:41 PM
If you want the last element just use .back() or .rbegin().
 
For some reason I was thinking I needed to check the last element manually.
 
end is past the end
 
E.g. "finds place of item, unless it is the last item", in which case I would need to check that too.
@A.H. that is what I remembered, yes
 
Hi I have problem with MPI can someone help stackoverflow.com/questions/20170511/…
 
3:02 PM
@melnajjar sure, we can help you with some downvotes
 
already downvoted that questiondumping fuck once
 
@Ell is it better to iterate over the state as it is stored in a cache? You need to look at the data whether or not it has changed, in order to render it. Looking at it in a cache is no better than looking at it at its source
also hi
 
dat comment ^
 
please tell me that is a joke
 
@jalf Poe's Law dictates it's impossible to tell.
 
Internet dictates that it's 100% serious
 
Too strong?
@Vlad No, it’s every bit as horrible as I’ve said. In fact, I would reject such code in a code review. I would (and have, in the past!) deduct points if a student handed this in as an assignment, and as a matter of principle I will not answer questions of Stack Overflow if the OP uses manual memory management: they are welcome to make their lives hard for themselves, but I will not help them with that. And while I wouldn’t downvote this answer (it’s technically correct), I am baffled at the number of upvotes it’s got – It doesn’t deserve them. — Konrad Rudolph 1 min ago
 
Ahahaha he's on SO
Also downvote tooltip says "this answer is not useful" so downvote away!
Voting on SO is meaningless anyway
 
3:33 PM
Excuse me, does anyone have time to help me a C# code releated to the listbox?
 
I've used all my questions for today and i need to finish 1 last thing for my program -_-
 
lol
 
Imagine this as running out of free tier and needing a premium service now
 
3:35 PM
@user3024598 go away. we don't like people like you here.
 
user1804599
@user3024598 wait till tomorrow.
 
@Abyx I was just asking, a simple no would suffice.
@rightfold Okay, i will. Just came here to ask if anyone could help. Guess not, eh.
 
3 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
No
Apparently not!
 
user1804599

C#

General discussions about the c# language, Squirrels | gist.gi...
 
this room is populated with misanthropes. Sorry to disappoint :)
 
user1804599
3:37 PM
Or ask there. vOv
 
I'll just wait till tommorow.
 
@Abyx I have no problem with him, here or elsewhere. I just don't want to answer C# questions here :p
 
You'll be a great programmer
Solving my own problems? nah
2
 
@CatPlusPlus well he solves them, in a way
"one problem left" he says.
 
I do try to solve them, but when i can't it's probably better to ask the "experienced" ones.
the more experienced ones.*
 
3:41 PM
@user3024598 no, it's generally better to try to figure it out (at least if learning is the objective)
Learning to do research yourself is extremely valuable to a programmer
 
cache your potatoes
 
asking someone else for help is nice and easy, but it doesn't teach you as much
and if you've already used up all the questions SO allows you, it might just be time to settle down and read the documentation, experiment with the code, look at code samples, whatever it takes and figure it out
 
@jalf I'm kinda getting the hang of it, since i'm new to programming. Watching tutorials and then combining them into 1 useful thing.
 
Someone do my presentation for me
 
@user3024598 It'll get easier with time. Good luck with it though. :)
 
3:43 PM
@user3024598 you still can reconsider doing programming, btw
 
Master of subtlety
I bow to you
 
lol
 
I need to read academic papers
god I'm bored just thinking about it
 
@user3024598 don't underestimate the value of just reading the official documentation though. Tutorials can be helpful, but they tend to show just what the author had in mind and nothing else. If you need something that's just 5% different from that, they may be completely useless
 
That's lot of docs as well
:v
 
3:46 PM
true enough
 
I've started PowerPoint, that counts as working, time for a break
 
hm... if I have a function, isn't it better to pack all its arguments into a struct, so I can add a new argument without breaking existing code?
 
You're still breaking existing code
 
@Abyx Isn't it better for the function to be explicit about which arguments it requires, so that code which passes the wrong arguments will fail to compile? :p
 
ABI changes
 
3:48 PM
@CatPlusPlus yep, but code (text) doesn't
 
@Abyx but shouldn't it do so?
"this function now expects an additional parameter, but I don't want to break callers which don't supply it"
 
@jalf maybe but not always
 
If you care only about that, you can just add a new defaulted argument
 
user1804599
Default arguments.
 
well, actually I don't think about callers, only about callees
 
user1804599
3:50 PM
Overloading.
 
At least ABI will change in a visible way!
@Abyx So what you're saying is that you suck at APIs
 
well actually I'm designing a callback
and I want to change API without breaking user code
 
Changing API breaks user code by definition
Adding a new one and deprecating the old one is way safer than whatever overcomplicated scheme you're cooking up right now
 
deprecated stuff usually lives for years
 
it might make sense to pack them into a struct. It's basically a way to create named parameters. But keep in mind that you're effectively trying to avoid telling callers and callees which parameters the function will take. That is often a really terrible idea
 
3:54 PM
Depends on deprecation policy
But if you want stable API, then you have to deal with it
Requiring people to use a struct for arguments is a terrible idea regardless of breakage
 
hmm, not sure I agree with that in all cases
 
so with functions it will look like
virtual void foo(int a) {} // deprecated
virtual void foo2(int a, int b) { foo(a); } // new API
and with a struct -
virtual void foo(Args a) {}
 
but doing it just to avoid API breakage seems a bit weak
 
Silent changes are bad changes
Especially if this is a virtual function
You're introducing new behaviour to the contract
Clients should break
Or they lose any guarantee of correctness
 
@CatPlusPlus there is such a thing as optional data. If the client can continue working safely without knowing about the new parameter, then the new API is not in itself a reason to break clients
 
3:59 PM
Yes, no, maybe
ABI breaks anyway
 

« first day (1135 days earlier)      last day (3808 days later) »