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11:00 AM
Also you guess all the interesting part of the story if you played Arkham City :(
 
Ah damn, I’ve got a seminar tomorrow but I can’t be bothered to prepare :/
 
Then don't!
Improvise!
 
I liked the new Batman movie. But with the heavy rubber suitChristian Bale was wearing he could only move slow, which made the fighting scenes look a bit ridiculous.
A bat should move fast.
 
He doesn't fight much in the last movie.
 
Also a bat hast an ultrasonic echolocation, I think Batman should have one too.
 
11:04 AM
I think he's got one in the second movie
 
haven't seen this one
 
A bat should have a credit card.
 
Windows is soo gonna go down when game developers finally port their games to linusc
 
@Cicada Forget it, there are no graphics drivers for Linux
much as I like the idea of Steam on Linux, it’s gonna crash and fucking BURN unless this is changed
 
11:08 AM
My 16-colors terminal begs to differ.
 
@Cicada Oh hello, the 80’s called. They want their palette back.
 
I thought you were talking about gamers.
 
16 COLORS WITH ALPHA TRANSPARENCY
 
They don't know what "16" means, much less "terminal".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes TEXT ADVENTURES
(Cicada screams so I can too)
 
11:09 AM
Yup. You silly parrot.
 
/me wants a cracker
 
That's illegal
 
@KonradRudolph Gamers don't play that.
 
what's the syntax for explicitly instantiating a class template?
 
I think Valve would have been way better off if they opted for a cheap steam box, which allows you to play all steam games on TV.
 
11:11 AM
@jalf template class foo<T>;
 
Ah cool
 
Valve cannot possibly be "way better off".
 
@Nils The reason they got big is by piggybacking off the PC market. Saying "if only they'd made their own console" is missing teh point by a mile
 
Which is more than a kilometre.
Thought I'd say that. For no reason.
 
lol
 
11:12 AM
they're filthy rich not simply because they provided a convenient way for people to use the hardware they already have to play the games that are already made for that platform
make your own platform, and you suddenly have to convince developers to target it and consumers to buy it
 
@Nils No way, many of their games would suck on console. I want a mouse & keyboard, thankyouverymuch
 
In other words, you need to spend tens of billions of dollars, and be willing to go for 5-10 years before you're profitable
 
@jalf And compete against all the other existing consoles.
 
For some reason, I find it hard to imagine Gabe Newell going "oh, if only we'd done that... We missed our golden opportunity"
 
While a game distribution system was an empty space ready to be filled with lots and lots of bank notes.
 
11:15 AM
They've positioned themselves to basically be paid 30% of the entire goddamn PC games market.
 
@jalf Exactly. They're doing too well to have the possibility of being "way better off".
 
Hard to see how they could have been "way better off"
 
@KonradRudolph well my point was that the console market is bigger than the Linux gamer market
 
There is no Linux gamer market.
They're trying to create one.
 
oooO Batman has a nuclear car, the NASA has one, I don't :(
 
11:17 AM
@Nils A couple of years ago, when everyone were panicking about the PC games market being dying, PC games sold about as well as individual consoles
 
sure
 
And today, with the consoles being fairly old and tired, and Steam and indie games blasting ahead, I'm pretty sure the numbers have not gotten worse
Valve's Linux foray is interesting though. I wonder how it'll turn out
 
yeah me too
 
I wonder how much of a real business opportunity they see it as. Or if it's just a safeguard to be less reliant on Microsoft
 
I still contend that it’s going to fail due to lack of good driver support
 
11:23 AM
naqh
the reason Valve are doing it is because they don't want to develop new games.
 
@KonradRudolph me too, also Linux desktops suck
 
@KonradRudolph Fixed? gist.github.com/3284629
Certainly not pretty, but I think it works.
 
@Nils I’d love it, it just doesn’t work.
 
except nvidias proprietary drivers
 
@KonradRudolph maybe. On the other hand, they've got a lot of pull. If Valve says "our games crash because of your drivers, NVidia", then you can be damn sure NVidia is going to update their drivers
It's going to be an uphill struggle for them
but if Linux is ever going to get the necessary driver support, it'll be because of something like this
 
11:26 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not sure, can a weak_ptr be locked several times?
 
@KonradRudolph Yes.
 
weak_ptr is not a mutex.
 
@CatPlusPlus So?
 
@jalf I'm not so sure about that.
 
11:27 AM
I think this could work
Wait
 
So why would it be lockable only once?
 
graphics drivers are very large, complicated things- and Valve's presence as an actual game developer is not actually very large anymore.
 
lock is a terrible name for that anyway.
 
@CatPlusPlus Concurrently, though?
 
11:27 AM
@KonradRudolph Why not?
 
shared_ptr's refcounting is thread-safe
 
@DeadMG They have some extremely popular games though
 
I mean id and Loki tried to enter/create a Linux game market and both failed years ago.
 
@jalf Had, would be more accurate.
 
@DeadMG No, has.
 
11:28 AM
Intel is already working with Valve to update their drivers.
 
> implying portal & portal 2, tf2, quake, rage, doom, etc and such aren't popular anymore
 
They were never terribly productive in terms of number of shipped games. But TF2, L4D2 and Portal 2 are all pretty big and relatively recent games
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I was confused. I think it works. But only once: unlike OP’s code, you cannot use it twice in succession if there’s a time in-between without anything holding on to an instance – i.e. it cannot be re-initialised
still, you should post it
 
Valve is still a significant force in the industry, whether they release new games or not.
 
@jalf They're not that recent.
 
11:30 AM
and moreover, they've got their intrusive little fingers in a lot of games. Lots of games use steamworks and all the other infrastructure steam makes available. They're very visible and they have a lot of pull over everything PC-game-related
 
but I'd say more importantly, there's little reason to believe that there are any big new games coming from Valve any time soon.
 
@DeadMG Lots of people play them today. They are relevant today
 
It's pretty much irrelevant.
 
Intel listens to them, regardless of whether you like their games
 
@jalf Right. But you don't update your drivers because of Steamworks.
 
11:31 AM
Actually you do
Check their blog
 
@jalf Actually, I pretty much do like their games, and own all of them. :P
 
@DeadMG You do update your drivers if Valve says "we can tell that so and so many different high-profile games crash in your driver code"
 
AR is the new hip thing
 
Of course, it's not just Valve. The major GPU companies update their drivers any time any big company releases a big game
 
not new games :)
 
11:32 AM
Question for you C++ specialists:
 
oh yes
 
still wondering weather I should back kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/…
 
but only for Windows
usually.
 
@KonradRudolph Ok, I shall post that after lunch and mention reinitialisation, then.
 
I mean, for nVidia/AMD, I think they would want to see more than just Valve's own games before justifying the investment.
I seem to recall that they already spend more money developing drivers than they do developing the hardware
 
11:33 AM
@DeadMG Today, sure. But if Valve wants an issue fixed in, say, nVidia's Linux driver, then it's still going to happen
 
_nodes[i] = i * someConstant + static_cast<int>(rng.next() * someConstant);
 
heck, it already happened. Valve got a number of driver fixes pushed through just to get their initial L4D2 port working
 
@jalf Sure. But that's not going to lead to some revolution.
 
Assuming i is 0, someConstant is 1 and rng.next a float < 1.0, can _nodes[i] != 0 ?
 
they didn't even have to release the game on Linux, they just had to tell the hardware makers that "we're trying to port our game, and we've run into problems with your drivers"
 
11:34 AM
it's not viable for Average Game Developers Inc to do that for every game they want to push through
 
@DeadMG Hard to say. It gives the revolution much better chances than it'd have had without them
 
Valve might be able to get their own ports working, but it would take a lot more than that to get the drivers up to where most games can work with reasonable effort
 
@Cicada "a float < 1.0" and >= 0.0?
 
@DeadMG but that situation is no different from on Windows. The hardware guys listen to the big names. They don't care that your little indie game crashes, but they pay attention when it's Portal, Quake or Battlefiled
Point is that everyone benefits from the fixes made because of those big names
once the drivers are stable enough for the big games, they'll also be much more stable for small games
 
I'm getting static_cast<int>(rng.next() * someConstant) = 1
 
11:36 AM
@jalf The difference is that by supporting Portal, Quake, and Battlefield, they get most of the issues, and Little Indie Game™ probably won't have a problem.
 
0.0 <= rng.next() < 1.0
 
@DeadMG I don't see the difference.
 
@Cicada not the first time that was spotted :) lol
 
@Cicada No, it cannot (should not)
 
@jalf nVidia fixing their drivers when Valve says jump will only fix the problems exposed by Valve's architecture.
 
11:36 AM
That's why Valve on Linux paves the way for smaller developers.
 
Fuck float rounding also
 
as long as there is only a small number of major architectures operating on Linux, they won't get decent coverage.
 
heh
 
@KonradRudolph Yet it does :w
 
@Cicada Erm, static_cast should truncate. Unless there's some fenv crap that changes that.
 
11:37 AM
@DeadMG so how do you think Windows got stable drivers? It certanily wasn't by AMD and NVidia listening to small indie developers
 
@Cicada Well then there’s something very ’rong
 
it was the exact same thing: big game calls out a driver issue, driver issue gets fixed, small indie developers benefit
 
@jalf Very true. I'm not saying that it's impossible or won't happen, or even that this isn't a step in the right direction. I'm merely saying that Valve alone won't be enough- probably by a long shot.
 
@jalf The leechers.
 
It's CUDA btw. But their floating point impl is supposed to be IEEE 754 conformant so D:
 
11:38 AM
I guess you could say that bigger games tend to run into more issues overall than smaller, simpler games. So fixing their issues gives reasonably good coverage for everyone
 
@jalf at least for Rage and Crysis 2 this holds
@Cicada yes supposed to..
 
Anyway, I'm certainly not saying we'll all be playing games on linux next year. It's more like, until Valve made this announcement, Linux was dead as a gaming platform. Now, it stands a small chance of becoming relevant at some unspecified point in the future ;)
 
mmm
you still need a lot more than just working graphics drivers to make shipping for Linux a viable proposition
 
yup
which is why I'm not saying "this is going to work"
it's just that I'm no longer 100% certain that it'll fail
 
I'm not saying that it's not going to work
 
11:40 AM
it's a first step
 
I merely think that the probability of it's success is rather minimal.
I mean, put it this way: Blizzard, probably the single most popular vendor of PC games, has been shipping for Mac since forever, but Mac's still not really viable for anyone except Blizzard and Valve.
 
it also depends on how we define "success"
 
heh
@DeadMG I think most games run on mac these days.
not sure though
 
Macs are relevant to gamers today. There are a lot of games available there. Nowhere near as many as on Windows, and many of them are sloppy ports which run like crap
but they're there
developers are actually thinking about mac ports
 
There's a bunch of Steam Play games around.
 
11:41 AM
I think the same miiiight, with luck, happen on Linux
 
the only games I've seen for Mac are shipped by Blizzard, Valve, and the odd indie.
 
@DeadMG Just check Steam and pay attention to the icons.
 
it certainly won't displace Windows, but it might end up being a platform that developers actually consider porting to
@DeadMG I was surprised when I loaded up Steam on my mac
there are a lot of games
 
if you look through the current top sellers, only one of them ships for Mac.
and that was my memory of the Steam Summer Sale, too- or even less.
 
that's the kind of "success" I have in mind. Linux won't become a "primary" platform like the consoles and Windows are. But it might become something many developers consider porting to
 
11:44 AM
mmmm
Linux has bigger problems than Mac
 
heck, Apple has even started taking their OpenGL support seriously
@DeadMG Absolutely. It's an uphill struggle in a lot of ways
 
isn't X11 a useless pile of garbage?
the scale of the differences between the distributions is quite high, if I recall.
whereas at least Mac is a single centralized platform
 
Sure. Aren't they only targeting Ubuntu or something atm?
 
@DeadMG differences in X11? Nah. Perhaps in default enabled extensions
 
Use Wayland
 
11:45 AM
pretty sure it's not a general-purpose Linux port
 
X11 suckz ballz
 
@sehe No, I meant in general. and that X11 sucks.
 
@sehe I think he meant differences in distributions in general, not X11-specific
 
No one writes for X11
 
@jalf aha
 
11:46 AM
not "There are differences in X11"
 
Like no one will write for Wayland.
 
You don't have to care about differences in distributions.
Making generic packages is not a big deal.
 
People write for e17, Qt (or KDE), GTK+ (or GNOME) or wxwidgets (which wraps GTK)
 
games are a lot more sensitive than your regular application to distributional differences
 
Generic linux package = binary tarball compiled on a stone-age old Linux distro with all dependencies other than glibc linked statically.
 
11:47 AM
Games are more than likely to use raw X11 with GLX rather than UI toolkits.
 
They'd use some OpenGL windowing toolkit
 
damn, UI
why is UI in games such a bitch?
 
Actually, linking glibc statically is probably good idea.
And libgcc.
And you're crazy if you compile on stone-age old Linux distro.
 
the only Unicode-supporting UI libraries that can run on top of DirectX are such a global-fest.
 
glibc statically?
 
11:48 AM
Yes, glibc statically.
 
won't that have kernel version difference problems?
 
@DeadMG Write one!
 
I don't think it matters. X11 sucks, but it's not a dealbreaker. There are plenty of extensions to make it perform well in local setups, and they don't need everything to work on every distribution. If they can get it working on a single distribution, then that alone will have a large impact
 
0
Q: Order of evaluation

ParminderI've the following small program. #include<stdio.h> int main(){ int i=-3, j=2, k=0, m; m=++i||++j&&++k; printf("%d %d %d %d", i, j, k, m); getchar(); } I expected the expression to be evaluated as m=(++i||++j)&&++k si...

 
glibc has no relation to kernel version.
 
11:49 AM
meh
 
What you're not going to link statically is X11.
 
glibs is ridiculously backwards compatible, so if you built with an old version, you're good to go now and in the future.
 
Or, more specifically, GLX.
 
@jalf Yeah, either that distro takes over everything, or other distros follow suit to make it work.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
 
11:50 AM
Dynamic linking to glibc breaks very often.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's a fine solution.
 
It only works on your distro because packagers take care of it.
 
dynamic linking sucks
 
@CatPlusPlus huh? First time I hear that. Got proof?
FTR, I'm talking glibc 2.x here
 
I've seen it happen more than once.
2.14 here, 2.16 there, ldd refuses to link.
Or maybe with a bit wider gap.
 
11:51 AM
@TonyTheLion Dupe. I answered that before.
That same question.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes about a year ago was it?
 
vote to close! We'll join in!
 
Voted!
 
And it seems it's not the first time around.
 
11:54 AM
oh god why
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I want to find the lecturer who keeps asking his students this question
 
It's a silly question, why not teach students to use parenthesis to specify precedence
 
why? it actually seems to be a relatively competent question.
 
what?
 
if you can explain the output, then you know operator precedence, implicit conversions to bools, and such things
 
11:55 AM
unmaintainability.
 
@TonyTheLion it teaches them why they need to use them, which is a more pressing issue then how to use them
 
so it seems to me to be a perfectly fine test of if the students know some specific things
 
the code is unreadable though
 
it is more important to know WHY then HOW
 
right. it's a test, not an example.
 
11:55 AM
lol
 
the lecturer is not saying "Write all ur codez liek this!!oneone!2onetwo"
he's saying "Why does the program output such a thing?"
 
Seriously, when DeadMG is defending some class exercise, he must be right.
 
I'm sure some idiot student is going to make the assumption by seeing that code he can write such code
 
@TonyTheLion Idiots gonna idiot. Give up that battle.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes or delusional
 
11:56 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes in his own mind, I'm sure he is always right
 
@TonyTheLion Agreed. I'd use something somewhat different. But it's not fundamentally unfit for purpose.
 
@DeadMG sure
 
Meh, I write tons of crap examples all the time.
 
also
is it just me, or is Richard Stallman an unbelievable prick?
 
I was arguing because I was bored, so I started a silly argument with no basis in fact
it worked!
 
11:57 AM
@DeadMG Took you that long to realise it?
 
I've never seen anything written by him before
 
2
Q: Is STL implemented with OO?

uptonThere are several design patterns like Adaptor, Iterator implemented in STL. Does that mean STL is implemented with OO concepts? What is the relationship between OO and template parts of C++? I learned that virtual member function which justifys the OO is contradict with template, is this corre...

Quick poll
 
Xeo
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: I couldn't stand to see the old topic any longer. Topic suggestions to DeadMG. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq] [fun]
 
@DeadMG For some reason he doesn't sleep in hotels (maybe hotel rooms are not GPL). When he came to my university for some talk, it was a problem because no teacher wanted to offer him a bed.
 
he looks scruffy with that beard
 
11:59 AM
@DeadMG he is
 
I couldn't offer an opinion, I had never heard of this guy before DeadMG mentioned him
 
@KonradRudolph Poll on what?
 
Xeo
OMG reddit isn't blocked here
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Is STL OOP?
 
12:02 PM
I avoid answering questions with terms like OO because they've been thrown and twisted around beyond usefulness.
IOW, I don't know what OOP means.
 
Screw OOP.
 
@thecoshman Amazing, she must be one of the very few survivors from that particular unit
most of the women sent to France were captured and killed
 
@KonradRudolph some will say "yes", some will say "no", it's a very subjective question.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thanks, that’s actually the only appropriate answer
 
I'm so awesome. I got the right answer even when I tried to avoid answering.
3
 
12:03 PM
> '' She was parachuted into the Auvergne, becoming a liaison between London and the local maquis group headed by Captain Henri Tardivat. Upon discovering her tangled in a tree, Captain Tardivat greeted her remarking, "I hope that all the trees in France bear such beautiful fruit this year," to which she replied, “Don’t give me that French shit.”
 
I just can't help it.
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion Der Spiegel today reported (in a German article) that the squirrel died later, supposedly due to shock.
 
Captain Tardivat was a smooth fellow.
 
@sbi awww :(
 
12:04 PM
@sbi That one, or the previous one?
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes That one. They explicitly referred to the previous one also having died.
 
My day is ruined now :(
 
Bunch of softies
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Mourning the squirrel that died in Germany. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq] [fun]
 
12:07 PM
@KonradRudolph Oh, you posted an answer. +1ed.
@KianMayne Squirrels are cool.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So did I. Now you'd better +1 me or I'mma feel so ronery :P
 
Never said they weren't
 
@TonyTheLion A minute of silence please.
@sbi They even tweeted that. Very thoughtful. They must be really bored. What with nothing at all happening in Aleppo and the surface of Mars.
 
Xeo
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Mourning the squirrel that died in Germany. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq] [tragedy]
@Tony seriously, leaving the "fun" tag in there.... :P
7
A: C++ "using std::<type>" vs calling std::<type> every time

Andrea BergiaMy rule of thumb: never put using namespace in a .h, but feel free to use it in a .cpp file. Especially when it's using namespace std!

Too many upvotes. :s
good thing I have an odd rep right now thanks to a random downvote in the morning
 
sbi
@DeadMG Yeah, and me, too, @R.Martinho!
 
12:20 PM
@sbi I would argue that STL is structured programming. Almost everything today is
 
@Xeo oops
 
sbi
@KonradRudolph Either you are nuts or we disagree over the term "Structured Programming".
 
@sbi s/not/note/
 
sbi
@KonradRudolph Thanks. Fixed.
 
@sbi It must be the latter. But I’m using the commonly agreed-upon definition here (which is less ill-defined than that for OOP)
> Structured programming is a programming paradigm aimed on improving the clarity, quality, and development time of a computer program by making extensive use of subroutines, block structures and for and while loops - in contrast to using simple tests and jumps such as the goto statement which could lead to "spaghetti code" which is both difficult to follow and to maintain.
 
12:22 PM
how can we have a tragedy tag with out a comedy tag? they go hand in hand
 
=> structured programming = language constructs + functions instead of goto
@thecoshman Are you fucking Aristotle or what?
 
@KonradRudolph shh, don't tell them I am immortal
 
sbi
@KonradRudolph Yeah, I already said that, strictly speaking, the moment you use functions, you use Structured Programming. But such a definition is nonsense, because the use of functions isn't what defines the STL.
 
@sbi Well, I didn’t say that I would primarily define the STL as being structured (because it’s not a great discriminating feature) but when asked whether STL was structured programming, and the answerer expected “yes” or “no”, I’d be forced to answer “yes”.
 
@KonradRudolph if you are forced to say "yes" then it doesn't count
 
sbi
12:28 PM
@KonradRudolph Yes, but every programming paradigm invented after SP was invented could be argued to be SP. Even LISP uses functions. So? That's like saying our main characteristic trait as humans is the vertebrae. We certainly are vertebrates, but there's a world of differences between us and chondrichthyes, and we are defined in those differences.
 
@sbi no argument there
Nobody who has understood Venn diagrams should see any contradiction here
 
sbi
@KonradRudolph I don't know what a Venn diagram is.
 
Slime Molds are freaky cool!
 
@sbi Surely you've seen them
Venn diagrams or set diagrams are diagrams that show all possible logical relations between a finite collection of sets (aggregation of things). Venn diagrams were conceived around 1880 by John Venn. They are used to teach elementary set theory, as well as illustrate simple set relationships in probability, logic, statistics, linguistics and computer science (see logical connectives). Overview File:Venn0001.svg|Intersection of two sets:~A \cap B File:Venn0111.svg|Union of two sets:~A \cup B File:Venn0010.svg|Relative complement of A (left) in B (right):A^c \cap B~=~B \setminus A File:...
Maybe by a different name
 
sbi
12:32 PM
@Collin Yeah, I have seen those. Didn't know what they were called, though.
 
@thecoshman So cool, in fact, that they might constitute the only known exception to the mechanism of evolution via selection (but note that this is highly contended)
 
how so?
 
Xeo
Damn, I'd really like to join the GDC Europe, but the tickets are so friggin expensive...
 
ooh, they are more like a multicellular creature, that has broken down the barriers between cells
 
12:41 PM
@Xeo I'm not sure if it is was the GDC, but there was a similar style of conference held in Liverpool a few years. My uni let those on my course go to it. Was an awesome event
 
Xeo
850eur for the all access pass :(
 
That's hilarious. The IE9 evangelist/download page (beautyoftheweb) doesn't work in IE8.
 
Xeo
@thecoshman I think there are only 2 kinds of GDC (game developer conference). The original one in San Fransisco and the GDC Europe directly before the gamescom in Cologne
 
That just shows you need to upgrade, Sam
 
@Xeo it was only a small event, couple of talks a day for a few days
 
12:50 PM
Ok this is rather a wired question for the windows nerds here..
Can I put a window in a front of another, but not on top?
so it stays on top of another window, but if there is yet another window above both it is below
Can I turn off input to a certain window, if I have a window handle and a thread id?
 
@Nils Just give it a parent, won't that do the trick?
 
@Nils so, you have two windows for a program, you want sub to be above main, but if there is an other, you want sub to go behind main when other is over either?
 
exactly
 
and you want to do this pragmatically?
well, you can detect when your all of the windows for your program have lost focus, but I don't think you can assume this means there is another window above yours. AFAIK you have no direct way to know what other windows there are and what they are doing
so, you could just do it when lose focus, you lower the sub window behind your main window... but not sure if you can lower a window, you might only be able to raise it, which may bring it above the one the user has switched to, which would be bad
 
humm
 
12:57 PM
indeed :P
 
but the modal dialogs (or windows) on win32 block input of the windows behind them, right?
but they are always on top humm
ah Qt has winId() so I will try to use setParent..
 

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