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11:00 AM
@DeadMG But placement vs non-placement is the same semantics.
So sure, you can implement it with itself. Why not.
 
sbi
@DeadMG How is it more maintainable to call functions to allocate memory for an exception, then constructed in place, call another function to throw it, yet another to catch it, then call the dtor manually, and then call yet another function to free the memory, when the alternative is to rely on throw and catch and let the compiler (which has already implemented all that) do the hard part?
No, the only reason I see for those functions is that the std lib needs to transfer exceptions across thread boundaries.
 
@sbi No, no, no- the compiler implements throw and catch in terms of these functions.
 
sbi
@DeadMG BUT I AM TALKING ABOUT THE LIBRARY! — and not the compiler. Why would a library care for specifying what the compiler internally uses?
 
@LucDanton lol
"You can implement AI in terms of strong-AI."
 
the compiler's internals have to go somewhere
the only difference between linking to them at run-time and code-generating them at compile-time is that, as far as I'm aware, code-generating them might be slower, more complex, and harder to replace
 
sbi
11:04 AM
@DeadMG Yes, they do. And it's the compiler vendor's task to decide where they go, what they look, that they have no bugs, and where they are to be called. Why would a library vendor would want to tell a compiler vendor how to do that?
 
@sbi Oh, I see your real doubt now. It is likely that __cxa_throw is there solely so that it works as a drop-in replacement for libsupc++ (GCC's runtime support library). It helps clang for example, which translates throw into calls to that.
 
sbi
Anyway, I think I should drop out of this, lest I go all jalf and yell at you.
 
@sbi You don't.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Ah, so the library is providing those, rather than calling them? Yeah, that would make sense.
 
@sbi Must have been my bad expression, because that's what I meant to say- the compiler-specific library is providing them
they're usually packed together with Standard library because that's also compiler-specific
 
11:07 AM
You'll note that there's a __gxx_personality_v0 there, which is... well...
Not for C++ runtime support, certainly.
 
11:21 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes yeah, there's something I really hate. It's hard to tell how well you can do with stdlib and without exceptions
 
@sehe IOStreams?
 
@sbi Zing. You could go all DeadMG of course, but that would likely confuse the puppy
 
Oh, they stole our collaboratively edited topic!
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes "they"?
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: They stole our collaboratively edited topic. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq]
@sbi Yes, "they".
 
11:26 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes and things like range_error, underflow_error. I'm not so sure, but I reckon these could be thrown from any algorithm.
 
sbi
@sehe What would "going all DeadMG" be about? Ranting in short one-liners, forgetting about grammar and orthography, while using lots of slang?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes "They" found the last topic to be too long
 
@sbi The puppy's grammar and orthography isn't that bad, is it?
 
@sbi that, and "Ad hominem", a lot of misleading "Argumentum ad Verecundiam"
 
Damn, that was the wrong trope. Too late to edit now.
 
sbi
11:29 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes I consider streams a good example of why not using exceptions is a bad thing. There's rarely a day when not a newbie posts a question on SO where the answer is "you need to explicitly check for success on stream operations". Would streams use exceptions by default, it would be much easier to use.
 
I don't think I've ever used an I/O library with exceptions. How well does that work?
 
sbi
@sehe I had to look up the latter. But, yeah, I think I remember such.
 
@sbi Well, you needn't. Use ios_base::exceptions( ... );
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes No, it isn't. But he rarely writes sentences, whereas I...
 
@sbi What would the equivalents of idioms like while(is >> x) be?
 
sbi
11:31 AM
@sehe I know I can do that. But nobody I know of or even heard of has ever used streams that way. So there's no experience in using them, which is why I wouldn't try it in productions code, and why I cannot, in good conscious, suggest it to newbies.
@RMartinhoFernandes Ha! See my previous message.
 
9
A: Try catch exception handling C++

R. Martinho FernandesBy default iostreams do not throw exceptions. Instead they set some error flags. You can always test if the previous operation succeeded with a contextual conversion to bool: ifstream file; file.open("C:\\Test.txt", ios::in); if (!file) { // do stuff when the file fails } else { string l...

This is why I don't think exceptions in IOStreams work well. At least not with the interface they provide.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Ever used an I/O interface that does use exceptions?
 
Also, I notice that answer is dangerously close to getting me a badge. whistles
 
sbi
@LucDanton Ada.
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh, thanks for the hint. I had almost upvoted.
 
@sbi I wouldn't like it if it were the default. I would actively hate if the stdlib required exceptions just to be able to do 'hello world'
@RMartinhoFernandes Woot. Another NiceAnswer for you
O hahahah you guys were talking about that :)
 
11:36 AM
@sehe Well. What if 'Hello World' allocates memory?
 
I strongly disagree.
 
Disagree with what?
 
IOStreams' exceptions make parsing with streams bearable.
 
@wilx Sure. It's not about that. It's about choice. Reread my message?
 
@LucDanton Hmm, I'm thinking maybe .NET or Java, but I believe the interface is different enough to make comparisons irrelevant/impossible.
 
11:38 AM
@wilx So for a strong disagreement you picked a rather weak standpoint.
 
What happens if there's not enough memory for a std::bad_alloc?
 
Well, ok.
I did not read the whole conversation.
I agree that exceptions on by default would be impossible to use.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes throw is not supposed to fail IIRC.
 
But missing them entirely would be pretty bad as well.
 
What am I saying?
 
11:41 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes I could verify if you (or @sbi) added me to the room owners :)
 
Thanks to that when something related to exception handling fails (e.g. in functions related to exception-handling in the Standard Library) then you get std::bad_alloc as a last resort.
 
@wilx Of course. Like I said, it's not about that
 
22 hours ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@sehe Running for presidency ownership?
So you are indeed running :)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Not really. But if you want to call it that at this stage, yeah. Guilty as charged
 
Let's see who got disfrequented...
 
sbi
11:42 AM
@sehe What could you verify then?
 
Does it matter? But: the robots deleted message before 3835241
 
sbi
@sehe I think you have a wrong impression on what room owner can do. Lemme...
 
@sehe No one got disfrequented.
You're not on the frequent list.
 
@sbi I surely remember a room owner state being able to read deleted message. About august 2011, I guesstimate
 
sbi
Well, I can't, that's for sure.
 
11:45 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes Hmm. I was at #7 yester(yester)day. I can't figure out how this twitchy ranking algo works (if at all)
 
@sehe Oh, no one can.
I think that's a good reason to use it to determine ownership status.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Ok. It might have been a practical joke then - the person in question might just have spotted it before deletion
@RMartinhoFernandes What? You lost me there
 
sbi
Oops. I can see the deleted message's history. It's tricky, but it works. I didn't know that.
 
6 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@LucDanton But std::bad_alloc::bad_alloc() can.
@sbi There's also this.
 
sbi
27 secs ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
No, right link.
@RMartinhoFernandes Indeed. This works.
 
11:47 AM
Jan 3 at 19:35, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Every time I see a "(removed)" message I feel the need to resurrect it.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah, it occurred to me that most likely I had known at some time, and then forgot about it again. I am not a robot, you know.
@sehe You slept a few hours.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, I was on that list less than 48 hours ago, at said position. I spent the whole of yesterday here, actively discussing, possibly my most talkative day in a long time. How could I have fallen off?
Sense it doesn't make. That's not my stupidity. I can tell a murky algorithm when I see it
 
@sehe No one knows.
 
@sbi Told ya so. So @RMartinhoFernandes does it compensate for my inability to grasp a broken ranking algorithm, when I know more about room owner's capabilities then the resident dinosaur?
 
sbi
@sehe The lower fringes of that list fluctuates too much to be usable.
3
Q: Most frequent users list is unreliable

DeadMGGenerally speaking, the most frequent users list in the chat is rather unreliable. What I'd really appreciate is to be based on the time expended over, say, the last month, so the list is more stable. Right now the bottom half of the list can fluctuate rather badly, and we would really appreciate...

 
11:50 AM
@sbi Hardly
@sbi It wasn't the fringes.
 
@sehe, you need more dots
 
@Abyx Dots?
 
@sehe ...
dots.
 
Dolly dots. I don't get it Abyx. Not sure if I care
 
11:51 AM
elipsis elipsis elipsis (or would that be 9 dots? :S)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Romanian accent detected
@Pubby Missed the point(s)
 
sbi
@sehe Per definition, anyone with a status below mine is in the lower fringes.
 
sbi
No, honestly, I'm not sure how to even read that list. I assume it's left to right, then up to down, but I certainly wouldn't bet one of my kids for this.
 
11:53 AM
All I know is I'm the first one.
I'm not sure if that's good or bad.
 
@sbi Oo that's the strong guarantee
@RMartinhoFernandes Find Zen in the middle of the road
(Don't find Buddha there, or you'll have to kill him)
 
@sehe And, btw, I can confirm that yesterday you were in that list when you mentioned it.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes How can you tell?
 
I looked into it at the time.
 
sbi
@sehe He's a robot. Perfect memory.
 
11:55 AM
@sbi Nope. I'd have known. I rather suspect daknok radek zupod beeblebrox of that.
 
daknok? that was on purpose. But props for getting the reference
 
Hello.
@sehe what?
 
Say beeblebrox 3 times and daknok appears?
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik Among other supernatural capabilities, it appears :)
 
11:56 AM
Oh lol that's funny.
 
ROFL
 
People are talking about me and then I come in.
 
Perhaps it time for some intergalactical tea.
 
My brain needs some rest; I'm back from Rotterdam.
And it's fucking hot outside.
 
@sehe I don't have a Nutrimatic. And I don't want one.
 
11:59 AM
I want one of them ships though.
> "The best conversation I had was over forty million years ago," continued Marvin. …"And that was with a coffee machine."
 
sbi
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik How'd did it go? Nice chaps? Extracted any promises on doing Haskell from them? I'm sure they will have been happy to meet their prospective student
@sbi Harmless. Who needs corrections for that kind of thing. Bah. :)
 
@sehe I don't wear chaps.
But it went well.
 
@sehe Poor Marvin. Thirty-seven times older than the Universe, and all that time with that horrible pain in the diodes down the left side :(
 
Haskell wasn't mentioned. And neither was jQuery so it wasn't worth it.
 
12:06 PM
@sbi Normally you would say "on the drums", which would suggest it wasn't a typo, but whatever.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I don't empathize that much with robots, apparently
 
Robots are the best characters!
2
 
@Neil Nope. In jazz, at least it is always "Mr. X on the piano, Mr. Y on bass and Mr. Z on drums". Don't know why 'the' in 'the piano' is usually not elided
 
Asimov FTW.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes But not unicode
@RMartinhoFernandes So much still to read. So little time
 
12:08 PM
@sehe I think if you were only saying Mr. Z on the drums, it would seem silly to omit the "the"
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I'll try to make one today, but I want to finish restructuring the project first.
 
But I see what you mean. I played in my school's jazz band myself, actually.
 
@CatPlusPlus What profile do the examples use by default?
 
(I didn't see that earlier, because chat didn't inform me.)
@RMartinhoFernandes 3.2 core.
 
Oh. That explains why they were crashing.
I was running them with the Intel card, which only supports 3.1.
Let's try NVidia.
 
12:10 PM
You can set the version in the window template (which is a silly name and I'm changing it).
It needs fallback and more serious error checking.
 
It's okay, this NVidia Optimus thing lets me pick the GPU from the context menu. It's neat.
 
sbi
The German government just answered to a question officially asked in the parliament about the extend of the German secret service logging and analyzing Internet traffic. Most of the answer is restricted and must not be published by the MP's, but among the few tidbits that are public they tell that they can decode some encrypted stuff (the question clarified what it asked about by saying "like SSH and PGP") "basically, depending on kind and quality of the encryption".
Decrypting PGP would indeed be interesting news.
I suppose, though, it's just a fuck-up in phrasing done by some writer who had no idea what he was writing about.
 
@CatPlusPlus Ok, they do work now. I should have thought of checking the profile version first :S
 
@sbi That's my assumption as well
@sbi There are probably some interesting side-channel attacks you might be able to do against SSH, but it's unlikely you could get much
 
12:14 PM
@CatPlusPlus is this 'replaceing' glskel?
 
@sbi That's what happens when a government wises up and hires a hacker to work for them.
 
sbi
The question was (I try to translate as literally as possible): "Is the technology used also able to at least partially decrypt and/or analyze encrypted (as in SSH or PGP) communication?" The answer: "Yes, in principle the technology used is able to do that, depending on the kind and quality of the encryption."
This, of course, is all open to interpretation.
 
@thecoshman Yes. It'll still be minimal and standalone, but I want to have space for different things later.
 
@sbi Ah, so if you use a 10-bit key, yes, they could decrypt it
 
@Neil Duly noted.
 
12:17 PM
@CatPlusPlus what major changes are there from glskel?
 
@Neil Nice. Were you on drugs?
@CatPlusPlus Oh cool name. And Dutch too
The springbok (Afrikaans and = jump; bok = antelope or goat) (Antidorcas marsupialis) is a medium-sized brown and white gazelle that stands about high. Springbok males weigh between and the females between . They can reach running speeds of up to , to and can leap 4 m (13 feet) into the air and can long jump of up to 15 m (50 feet). The specific epithet marsupialis (Latin: marsupium, "pocket") derives from a pocket-like skin flap which extends along the middle of the back from the tail onwards. When the male springbok is showing off his strength to attract a mate, or to ward off pre...
 
@sehe No, I played the piano.
 
@CatPlusPlus is it decent?
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik glskel was good
 
ok, quick sanity check. Can anyone else, using VS2010, find std::copy_n if they include <algorithm>?
 
12:25 PM
@thecoshman Well, namespace, the window factory is renamed to display, display and windows are values instead of pointers, window template is renamed to a window request (and doesn't have that large ctor anymore), driver architecture.
I'll move pump_events to display, too.
 
@CatPlusPlus Yay, values. Not that I understand the domain problem. But yay, values!
 
@Neil Past tense. Style?
 
Oh, and position/mode is merged to display_mode (windowed_mode(width, height, centered/any_position, with_borders/without_borders), windowed_mode(width, height, x, y, with_borders/without_borders), or fullscreen_mode() (desktop), fullscreen_mode(video_mode)).
 
@sehe Style? In what sense?
Did I improvise you mean?
 
wtf
 
12:29 PM
@Neil Stride, bebop, garner, ballad, monk, jarret/corea, what else?
@jalf impending...
 
@CatPlusPlus what is video_mode then? is that a struct for things like resolution and bpp?
 
Yeah.
display has available_modes for querying valid options.
 
oooh, seems to be dependent on _HAS_CPP0X not being set to 0
 
why don't you just pass width height to display_mode on their own, they make sense in all contexts
 
ooh that took a while
 
12:31 PM
Not all resolutions are possible in fullscreen mode.
 
@sehe Jazz, mostly, lady madonna, caravan, that sort of thing
 
@CatPlusPlus touché
 
Hey cool you can now immediately answer your own question while asking it.
 
@Neil Standards. That's the repetory though, not the style. I have heard the standards in very very wildly diverging styles.
 
sbi
@jalf This compiles for me:
    #include <algorithm>
    //#include <iostream>

    int main() {
        char ach1[] = "blah";
        char ach2[] = "blubb blubb";
        std::copy_n(ach1, sizeof(ach1)-1, ach2);

        //std::cout << ach2 << '\n';
        return 0;
    }
 
12:34 PM
@CatPlusPlus is it not possible for centred to be some sort of function that returns an std::pair<int, int> for position? Though, I think with X that would be awkward as it would require a connection to display first.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik While we are on the topic of Jazz then:
47
A: What is this "answer your own question" jazz?

Shog9Since Stack Overflow began, spontaneously sharing what you've learned by posting a question and immediately answering it has been allowed and even encouraged: if you have a question that you already know the answer to if you’d like to document it in public so others (including yourself) ...

 
@sehe I stopped playing the piano after high school because that was about my limit. I can't really tell you what my style was unless my style was nothing at all.
 
@sbi ach is an apt German word there
 
@thecoshman What for?
 
@Neil Just call it eclectic. Or minimalism :)
 
sbi
12:35 PM
@jalf That's what is set in my test project:
WIN32
_DEBUG
_CONSOLE
_SCL_SECURE_NO_WARNINGS
_SECURE_SCL=0
_CRT_SECURE_NO_WARNINGS
_CRT_NONSTDC_NO_WARNINGS
 
I was wondering what the people in the C++ lounge think about DI
 
Joel Spolsky on May 21, 2012

Remember this old picture?

What’s that “Blog” circle supposed to be about, you ask? WHERE’S THE BLOGGING?

Since Stack Overflow launched, we’ve been trying to explain that it’s not just a Q&A platform: it’s also a place where you can publish things that you’ve learned: recipes, FAQs, HOWTOs, walkthroughs, and even bits of product documentation, as long you format it as a question and answer.

As Jeff wrote:

if you have a question that you already know the answer to …

 
46
Q: Dependency Injection: How to sell it

MelLet it be known that I am a big fan of DI and automated testing. I could talk all day about it. Background Recently, our team just got this big project that is to built from scratch. It is a strategic application with complex business requirements. Of course I wanted it to be nice and clean, w...

 
lol I don't even know what that is.
 
"...I could talk all day about it." Sounds like you need to stop obsessing over something that is abused more often than not because of dogmatic adherence to some white paper of the day. — Jarrod Roberson 18 hours ago
^ hear hear
@RadekdaknokSlupik what, jazz or DI?
 
Dependency injection.
I know what jazz is; it's awesome.
 
@KonradRudolph Sounds Javay and enterprisey.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik Well DI is too. But not nearly as much as it's zealots/bigots make it seem
@CatPlusPlus Guess where it was invented.
 
I know where it was invented.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik It's basically common sense repackaged to be cool and agile and things
 
12:38 PM
I don't like that stuff.
 
@jalf Yeah I was reading on it and I dislike it already.
 
"hey, I've got an idea. We should, like, pass our dependencies as constructor arguments to the class that needs them!"
 
@jalf Is it though? Common sense? Naw …
 
@CatPlusPlus I'll have to show you tonight, too hot to think it through properly :S I did like the way you used a variant for the position in glskel. perhaps use it with centered(), absolute(int, int) and any_position() (or something like that)
 
whooooaa, that's deep. Why've we never thought of that before?
 
12:38 PM
I don't see the advantage of DI over adaptor pattern.
 
ok, let me reformulate this
 
@jalf +1 for adequate deconstruction
 
what y’all folks think of DI containers
 
@KonradRudolph they can take a running jump
fuck'em
 
He did ask for it...
 
12:39 PM
@thecoshman Using second constructor is equivalent to absolute(int, int).
 
well, if you're working with someone who just plain refuses to pass parameters around, having a single DI container which does it is a bearable compromise.
 
DI containers, IoC containers, Java people sure like containers.
 
sbi
> "How much does a hipster weigh" - "An Instagram." — Lianne
 
but ultimately, a waste of time IMO
 
@CatPlusPlus I think those are the same thing.
 
12:40 PM
Yeah, programming is a waste of time.
The result sucks anyway.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, I have no idea.
 
@jalf I rather fear them because they make the architecture vastly more complex. And I’m not sure that the benefit of being able to mock test offsets that
 
@CatPlusPlus I just like the explicate "I want to position it exactly here!"
 
@thecoshman It's best-effort anyway.
I want to limit the amount of variant visitors needed.
 
@KonradRudolph The benefit of being able to mock doesn't come from the "container".
 
12:42 PM
@CatPlusPlus true. I like the idea of starting centred, shame my WM is an ignorant fuck
 
It comes from having the dependencies set out in a sensible way.
 
@CatPlusPlus from the user of the library, I would agree, from the development of the library point of view, I'd say what ever make it easier to use
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, the container does seem like a logical extension of using DI
passing all these parameters around manually gets old fairly quickly
 
> Dependency injection is a software design pattern that allows a choice of component to be made at run-time rather than compile time. This can be used, for example, as a simple way to load plugins dynamically or to choose mock objects in test environments vs. real objects in production environments.
I remember when that was called polymorphism. Good times.
4
 
@KonradRudolph Yep, but as I see it, there are three ways you can do it. At the extremes, you can just pass your goddamn dependencies around as parameters (which I'd say is common sense). At the other extreme, you think that's going to be such a pain that you instead make everything global and try to just magically make the dependencies be visible wherever they're needed. That makes it impossible to mock, or just to reuse code.
A DI container is a kind of compromise which at least restores some sanity to the world
 
12:44 PM
WTF. Someone set us up the bomb just checked this in at our workplace:
  <system.web.extensions>
    <scripting>
      <webServices>
        <jsonSerialization maxJsonLength="2147483644"/>
      </webServices>
    </scripting>
  </system.web.extensions>
 
@CatPlusPlus but now it has a shiney buzz word
 
I mean. Srsly?!^
 
@CatPlusPlus No, it solves a problem generated by polymorphism
 
> The main argument was, "we don't need to add this layer of complexity to an already complex project"
 
with a DI container, you at at least give yourself a single centralized point where all these dependencies are controlled from. Better than sprinkling globals/singletons all over the place
 
12:45 PM
That actually sounds like common sense.
@KonradRudolph What problem?
 
@CatPlusPlus The problem of generating polymorphic instances of objects at runtime
 
heh, soemtimes I suspect that parts of our code might be a slight bit overengineered
 
DI essentially answers the question “which object needs to be generated here?”
 
Apparently some simple unit test of some port forwarding rules needs to include <boost/random/linear_congruential.hpp>
 
polymorphism answers the question “given an unknown object, how do I call its methods?”
 
12:47 PM
Oh well. You guys are obviously more experienced and think a 2Gb Json result is just common sense normal...
 
so it presupposes the existence of said objects in the first place
 
@CatPlusPlus Smells like crap, steers like a cow
 
@sehe I think it's fairly common to just set a big huge max length because you don't expect the length to be a problem, and so you don't want to artificially limit it
 
@sehe ^^ Just introduce a status code “tl;dr” into your web service protocol
4
 
12:47 PM
@jalf I don't want to artificially limit it. I want to limit it, period.
I want things to break instead of brind the server down.
@KonradRudolph lol
 
My left eye socket is itchy.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik UNIX domain or INET?
 
I wonder what happens when you have two classes implementing the same thing in that XML. Pick it at random?
 
@sehe INET6.
 
12:49 PM
I don't think I've ever had a problem that required crap like this, and I did some plugin systems.
 
I cannot scratch it. xD
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik Luckily there is a socketpair
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik Scratch that. You can.
@RadekdaknokSlupik DAMP.
 
Deficits in Attention, Motor Control and Perception?
I don't have DAMP syndrome.
 
12:50 PM
28
Q: What does “DAMP not DRY” mean when talking about unit tests?

Ian RingroseI heard someone say that unit tests (e.g. nUnit, jUnit, xUnit) should be DAMP not DRY (E.g. unit tests should contain "dump code" not "dry code") What are they talking about?

 
My armpits are WET.
 
@tweetsbi Not to mention, do you have *any* idea how much manpower it takes to not add C++11 support? They're busy over there!
Awesome.
 
Hey, useless Metro won't do itself.
 
AND they had to remove XP support in the same time frame!
poor bastards
the work just piles up
 
I travelled by metro today.
 
12:55 PM
@RadekdaknokSlupik And you lived. Huzzah
 
I didn't.
:P
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik Watskeburt?
 
@sehe It was boring je weet zelf.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik :) but you lived
 
12:56 PM
OMG, gibberish on the chat again.
 
As always…
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik .WET Framework.
 
lol adobe flash
@EtiennedeMartel kinky.
 
Oh, good morning everybody.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes It wasn't me. Mine was just a songtitle
 

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