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3:00 PM
@jalf That is, of course possible -- I don't claim any great degree of expertise in ISO procedures. At the same time, my reaction would be to submit it ASAP. If it's a clear-cut bug, there's at least some chance it'll get fixed soon (e.g., stretching a point, treat it as a typo, which they're allowed to fix even after the standard's approved). If you don't submit it, there's a lot less chance of it getting fixed (possibly ever).
 
Absolutely. The sooner it is reported the sooner it can be dealt with. :)
 
@rlc: my program is correct.. i tested it
 
@MartinhoFernandes Sorry.... mistyped.... it's n/2^n
@rlc The limit isn't 0, but the limit of the sum/range as range approaches infinity is 0
 
3:17 PM
But the proportion is 1.
 
So the integral is 0
 
For the reason I gave above.
 
@MartinhoFernandes Not true
@MartinhoFernandes If I had a machine, and it put out 1 red ball and 2 blue balls.... and it did this literally for infinity. How many red balls are there compared to blue balls....
1 to 2
Or, 1/3 of the balls are red.
So, even though there are infinite red and blue balls.... there's still 1 red for every 2 blue.
There aren't as many powers of 2 as there are non-negative integers.... no matter how large the range, including infinite.
There are exactly inf/2^inf powers of two over the non-negative integer range.
 
In set theory, the aleph numbers are a sequence of numbers used to represent the cardinality (or size) of infinite sets. They are named after the symbol used to denote them, the Hebrew letter aleph (\aleph). The cardinality of the natural numbers is \aleph_0 (read aleph-naught; also aleph-null or aleph-zero), the next larger cardinality is aleph-one \aleph_1, then \aleph_2 and so on. Continuing in this manner, it is possible to define a cardinal number \aleph_\alpha for every ordinal number α, as described below. The concept goes back to Georg Cantor, who defined the notion of cardinal...
Infinity does not work like that.
@Xaade For each natural number there is one power of two.
 
is there any one boss on vector or matrix analysis by C++ code ? please response
 
3:25 PM
Well, I could care less what formal mathematics says. It's just not practical. If I remotely care about density, then Aleph doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter if an immortal space monkey can find one star for every planet. The fact remains that the universe holds different densities of planets and stars. And density is what I care about.
 
Isn't that what a 1:1 proportion means?
 
You couldn't care less, if you could care less then you care an unspecified positive amount.
/nitpick
 
If we're looking for life on another planet, and we took your approach, we could simply shoot off in any direction and eventually hit a planet. However, if we understand density, we're more likely to be successful in a finite amount of time.
Which then it becomes obvious that it's a matter of perspective.
The density of integer powers of 2 over any range is n/2^n, including infinity.
 
@sbi Drawing inspiration from this classic adventure:
 
@Xaade But the set of the powers of two is as dense as the set of natural numbers. I can find as many natural numbers between 1 and 10 as I can find integral powers of two between 2^1 and 2^10.
 
3:28 PM
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Ask me about RAII
 
So from my perspective, count matters less over a range of infinity.
@MartinhoFernandes NOW, you are wrong.
When describing count, Aleph matters. When describing density, Aleph need not apply.
 
@Xaade Am I?
 
Density?
 
I didn't need aleph in that argument back there.
 
@MartinhoFernandes Those are different ranges.
 
3:29 PM
@StackedCrooked Of course C++ will last "forever", as will Java and C#. There is simply too much code written in these languages.
 
And different densities
 
@Xaade Different ranges on the set of the natural numbers.
 
That's like saying, there's the same amount of air in two balloons of different size. Of course... that's a count.... but the density is different if the volume is different.
 
But there are two sets at play here.
 
Look, to compare densities, you have to have the same range.
You're comparing count.
Therefore, there aren't the same amount of exponents as there are integers.
 
3:32 PM
@Xaade That's blatantly wrong.
 
Just like there aren't the same amount of primes as there are non primes, over any range.
 
Hm, I'm pretty sure there are less than 100 primes in the range [1, 100]...
 
@FredOverflow We're talking infinity here.
 
Martin, math isn't truth, it's a tool. Aleph is useless to me. Therefore, I disregard it. What's the probability of X occurring over an infinite amount of time, that's 1. What's the percent of failures over an infinite amount.... that's x% due to the probability.
 
@MartinhoFernandes I don't believe in infinity ;-)
 
3:35 PM
I will never ever ever ever care to count amount over infinity, because it will always be infinity.
No field would care about that number.
 
@Xaade So, we need not argue. If we use infinity to mean "very very very big number", we will agree.
 
rlc
@MartinhoFernandes you're comparing two finite ranges, to which the assertion that there are as many integral powers of two in the range as there are positive integers does not apply. In fact, that assertion only applies to an infinite range
 
Nope, infinity is infinity.
Look.... quoted from the wiki article.
The cardinality of the set of real numbers (cardinality of the continuum) is 2^{\aleph_0}. It is not clear where this number fits in the aleph number hierarchy.
There, I just made Aleph pointless.
 
@rlc (I know, forget that)
 
rlc
@MartinhoFernandes btw: @Xaade's argument on density doesn't apply to an infinite range
 
3:39 PM
@rlc If limits apply to an infinite range.... so do densities.
 
I don't follow.
 
Anything other than that is simply impractical.
 
rlc
it's only limited on one end
 
Look, I'm saying Aleph is impractical.
There's no practical use.
 
Infinity isn't supposed to be practical.
 
rlc
3:40 PM
@Xaade Aleph is certainly impractical, but that doesn't make it wrong
 
Yes it is
@rlc I can't disagree with a theory??? Just because the field is math?
 
rlc
@Xaade sure you can disagree with a theory
 
Then I disagree.
 
rlc
actually, you just have to provide one counter-example to blow the theory out of the water
 
Aleph is wrong.
 
3:41 PM
@FredOverflow Has any big programming language ever really died? Cobol and Fortran are still in existence today.
 
Well, how can you provide a counter theory to it, the whole notion is ludicrous..... I can assert that an imaginary object actually exists..... there I have a theory.
Disprove it.
 
@StackedCrooked If you define "big" as "immortal", then no ;-)
 
@FredOverflow that would be tautologous :)
@Xaade No.
:)
 
@Xaade You mean like god?
 
@StackedCrooked See, there's no reason to. It's ludicrous.
I don't have to disprove Aleph.
 
3:43 PM
@Xaade Wait, you're contradicting yourself. Unless you're saying things can be imaginary and real.
 
I just simply disregard it because the notion is ludicrous.
@MartinhoFernandes HAH... they can be both.....
@MartinhoFernandes If I have an imaginary friend, it does in fact exist.... maybe not as a being, but it does exist within context.
 
Ok, we're wandering out of math into philosophic discussions of the kind I don't care, so I have nothing to argue.
 
if it can be imagined, then it is indeed imaginary
 
What does the FDIS say about implicitly generated move operations? Do we get them or not?
 
Blasphemy! He's talking about C++!
 
3:46 PM
basically, we do, but only if you have an implicit or defaulted copy constructor, default constructor, and destructor, and a few others
 
In short, I don't give a flying #@$ what they say, infinity != infinity if the density is not the same.
 
@MartinhoFernandes Blasphemous in the context of what god?
 
@FredOverflow the chat god.
 
rlc
@Xaade @MartinhoFernandes I'm pretty sure that it can be proven that the cardinality of natual numbers is larger than the cardinality of integral powers of two
informally, any integral power of two is itself a natural number, and therefore counts in both sets
 
@rlc In fact, the opposite has been proven.
 
rlc
3:47 PM
but there are natural numbers that are not integral powers of two
 
@rlc Being a subset does not imply lesser cardinality, except with finite sets.
 
@rlc Does not matter. Both sets are infinte and countable.
 
@MartinhoFernandes If that's what cardinality means, then it's wrong
And I have several professors to back me on this one.
 
You can map 0<->1, 1<->2, 2<->4, 3<->8, 4<->16, 5<->32, 6<->64 and so. Every natural number has a partner, and every power of two has a partner.
 
rlc
@MartinhoFernandes @FredOverflow yes every natural number has a partner as a natural number, but not as an integral power of two
 
3:49 PM
@FredOverflow And you can recursively map real numbers to integers. It's just that no one's done it.
 
@rlc I don't understand what you mean.
 
@Xaade The set of real numbers has higher cardinality than the set of natural numbers. Like you said above, its 2 to the power of aleph-naught.
 
1 -> 0.1, 2 -> 0.01, 3 -> 0.001 and so on
 
You cannot count the real numbers. Won't work.
 
@Xaade You won't map everything. Only powers of 0.1.
 
3:50 PM
There is a proof by contradiction, I forget its name... diagonal proof or something.
 
But you don't have to follow that path.
If I chose a random real number and map it to the next int.... now I've mapped every real number.
 
Cantor's diagonal argument, also called the diagonalisation argument, the diagonal slash argument or the diagonal method, was published in 1891 by Georg Cantor as a mathematical proof that there are infinite sets which cannot be put into one-to-one correspondence with the infinite set of natural numbers. Such sets are now known as uncountable sets, and the size of infinite sets is now treated by the theory of cardinal numbers which Cantor began. The diagonal argument was not Cantor's first proof of the uncountability of the real numbers; it was actually published much later than his first...
 
@MartinhoFernandes Thanks, that's what I meant.
 
This diagonal slash technique is pretty useful.
 
@Xaade There is no such thing as a random mapping in mathematics. Please be more specific.
 
3:53 PM
And it's a pretty solid argument that can be explained without any complicated math.
 
@FredOverflow If you intend to go in order.
If you had a machine that randomly picked a real number not yet picked. Then assigned it the next available integer. You are then counting real numbers.
Obviously not in order, but you are in fact counting them
 
@Xaade There are as many rational numbers as natural numbers.
 
However, in any finite range of integers, there are infinite reals.
 
But real numbers are not just rational numbers.
 
The better definition in my mind would be, if given a finite range of integers, and the same range subset of reals, can you finish counting the reals. No.
 
4:30 PM
@Xaade: So are you saying that Cantor's diagonal argument is wrong?
 
4:43 PM
0
Q: deducing references to const from rvalue arguments

FredOverflowOkay, this may seem like a silly question, but here it goes: template <typename T> void foo(T& x) { } int main() { foo(42); // error in passing argument 1 of 'void foo(T&) [with T = int]' } What is preventing C++ to instantiate the foo function template with T = const in...

 
@FredOverflow Almost forgot. What's RAII?
 
@FredOverflow Not sure what I'm saying.
I just don't think two ranges with different densities can be the same count just because cardinality is equivalent.
I have yet to see that cardinality = size.
2
Q: Cardinality != Density???

XaadeI was in a discussion where I argued that the density of two sets of the same cardinality could be different in respect to the infinite range of non-negative integers. Does cardinality imply that any set of ${\aleph_0}$ has equal density to any other set of the same ${\aleph_0}$? Also, does card...

Got it..... THIS is how you measure the differences between two infinities.
In number theory, asymptotic density (or natural density or arithmetic density) is one of the possibilities to measure how large a subset of the set of natural numbers is. Intuitively, we feel that there are "more" positive integers than perfect squares, since every perfect square is already positive, and many other positive integers exist besides. However, the set of positive integers is not in fact "bigger" than the set of perfect squares: both sets are infinite and countable and can therefore be put in one-to-one correspondence. Clearly, we need a better way to formalize our intuitive ...
 
5:00 PM
Ok, that makes sense.
I was thinking of this other density:
In topology and related areas of mathematics, a subset A of a topological space X is called dense (in X) if any point x in X belongs to A or is a limit point of A. Informally, for every point in X, the point is either in A or arbitrarily "close" to a member of A - for instance, every real number is either a rational number or has one arbitrarily close to it (see Diophantine approximation). Formally, a subset A of a topological space X is dense in X if for any point x in X, any neighborhood of x contains at least one point from A. Equivalently, A is dense in X if and only if the only clos...
Wait, actually I was confusing that.
 
That's what I meant by the set of 2^n was smaller than n.
It was just hard for me to put it into words.
Topology.... ugh.... I can't understand topology. There aren't any good visual definitions of clopen sets.
 
Ok, now that's settled, anyone up for a discussion on quantum theory? ;)
 
Ironic since it's supposed to be "modern" "geometry"
@MartinhoFernandes I hate quantum theory. It proposes things I think are purely wrong, no matter what the math says.
 
@MartinhoFernandes Maybe... I'd have to open the box to be sure ;-)
 
I'm thinking of making a double-slit experiment with a cat.
Will the cat interfere with itself if we don't observe it?
 
5:08 PM
How can a state be indeterminate until observed.
 
I'm thinking of making a double-slut experiment with a car.
 
That's absurd.
What if there was nothing to observe.
 
(I have nothing against cats btw, it's just that they seem to be popular in quantum circles)
 
Cats are more likely to discover everything in a lab.
Whereas a dog can be trained.
Ok, so the whole cat thing..... Assume there is no cat. Assume there is nothing that observes the incident. Does the incident happen or not?
 
I just need to find the means to shoot a cat, a wall with two holes big enough for a cat, and a "cat detector".
 
5:10 PM
Quantum theory would imply that nothing ever happens.
 
@MartinhoFernandes How about a dog for a cat detector?
@Xaade How so?
 
@FredOverflow If the quantum state doesn't collapse until measured/observed, then nothing ever happens if there are no methods of observation.
 
I believe it implies that things stay superposed.
 
So, if I were to eliminate all methods of observation/measurement.... nothing ever happens.
@MartinhoFernandes -OR- Everything happens.
 
No that that makes much more sense, though.
 
5:13 PM
To me superposed is equivalent to nothing happening.
 
See, that's the problem with QT. Everyone has a different interpretation.
 
If it never collapses, then what's the meaning to the event.... nothing.
 
@Xaade So how did the universe evolve? There were no observers immediately after the big bang, right?
 
If it never collapses, reality never made a choice.... there was no outcome.
 
@FredOverflow What's an observer?
 
5:14 PM
@MartinhoFernandes I have no idea.
 
Neither do quantum theorists.
 
The observer pattern (a subset of the publish/subscribe pattern) is a software design pattern in which an object, called the subject, maintains a list of its dependents, called observers, and notifies them automatically of any state changes, usually by calling one of their methods. It is mainly used to implement distributed event handling systems. Example Below is an example that takes keyboard input and treats each input line as an event. The example is built upon the library classes [http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/Observer.html java.util.Observer] and [http://ja...
Maybe this one?
 
So I guess we are on par with them.
 
@FredOverflow Well, apparently there was a method of measurement. The atomic level of interaction defined by what occured when the quantum state collapsed. In other words, atoms are a method of observation of quantum state.
 
Right...
 
5:15 PM
Yeah, bogus...
 
@Xaade But they are part of the quantum state. Why don't they collapse spontaneously? Makes no sense.
 
I guess I just never really cared about any level of abstraction below the transistor, sorry :)
Maybe my attitude will change when quantum computers hit the mainstream.
 
@Martin, maybe they do...... maybe spontaneous collapse is event.
An event occurs when a quantum state collapses.... otherwise the quantum state has no effect on reality.
 
But that would invalidate the double-slit experiment, for example. Why don't the particles observe themselves?
 
Of course.... that's verging on multiverse territory..... spooky.
 
5:17 PM
That's just another interpretation. The laziest, if you ask me.
 
Double slit.... hah.... that's no different than blending two light colors.
they interfered because they hit each other.
Ever seen a car wreck.
 
@Xaade It is. A single photon interferes with itself.
Unless you try to determine which slit it went through.
Ok, imagine this. Put someone inside the box with the cat.
That someone will observe the cat dying or not.
The guy outside will still have the cat dead/alive.
Who's right?
 
Neither
The cat IS either dead or alive, regardless of perception.
My point is that any form of scientific measure is a perception.
 
The guy inside saw it die (if it died) or stay alive (if it stayed alive).
 
Just because we can't understand why, doesn't mean there's a superposed quantum state.
Superposed quantum state is lazy.
 
5:22 PM
And that's exactly why Schroedinger came up with the cat thing. To show his own equation that is the basis of this whole charade could not be "true".
 
Things don't collapse when observed. An event occurs, either someone saw it or they didn't.

Otherwise the whole tree falling in the forest never made a sound because no one heard it.
 
You can't say it didn't make a sound. You have to say it did and did not.
 
@MartinhoFernandes Then the scientists who could not admit that their absurdity is wrong (because they assume math is always true), expanded their ludicrousity into even more absurd monstrosities like multiverse....
 
@Xaade FWIW, many-worlds is not the standard interpretation.
 
This in my mind is the exact evidence that scientist are protective of their work, and cannot be trusted.
Let's just get more bizarre to cover up the fact that our theory doesn't explain this.
How about, that's the same as lying. You have to keep growing the lie to account for people finding out the truth.
Quantum states do not exist, are not superposed.
If entangled particles cannot provide instant transmission because measurement alters the result, then we can't prove that they are in fact entangled at all, we just suppose they are.
 
5:28 PM
There are experiments that produce results in favor of that.
Now I leave it to you to figure out if I'm gone or not, or both. ;)
(Don't tell Piotr about my experiment with the cats)
 
ಠ_ಠ
 
rlc
@FredO OK, what about RAII?
 
@rlc RAII is awesome, you should totally buy into it!
 
rlc
@FredOverflow I agree, but you changed the topic to "Ask me about RAII", so let's pretend I don't :-)
hmm.. impossible position to hold, but here goes: "RAII is crap, C++ should get a real garbage collector"
 
RAII is, like, the exception-safe programmer's wet dream!
@rlc Garbage collectors only deal with memory leaks.
 
rlc
5:39 PM
@FredOverflow not if you have some magic object for the other resources you might be interested in
 
yeah
GCs are great- until you want to start collecting non-memory resources
6
 
@rlc I have yet to encounter a programming language that is based on magic.
 
rlc
@FredOverflow Delphi?
compiler magic galore
 
@rlc I have never encountered Delphi ;-)
 
We should totally make one. Magic++.
 
5:41 PM
Wasn't Delphi that place in Greece where funny fumes came out of the earth, people inhaled it and started talking nonsense?
 
rlc
@FredOverflow yes, but it's also a programming language from the Pascal family
 
@MartinhoFernandes I read that, and now I don't know which way is up
 
By the way, did Oracle ever buy Delphi? :)
@rlc If I ever did a Pascal clone, I would call it Blaise.
 
rlc
@FredOverflow I don't know, who bought Borland?
 
@rlc According to Wikipedia, Micro Focus International.
I used to have a Borland C++ compiler :) It came with a terrible IDE, so I just invoked it from the command line.
 
5:45 PM
 
:749555 Oh no, wait, it was actually Watcom.
 
rlc
@FredOverflow ok, then they own Delphi
 
But did you get the Oracle/Delphi pun?
 
rlc
if Oracle buys Watcom (or just the Borland division), Oracle will own Delphi (and they'll be home, I guess)
 
The Pythia (), commonly known as the Oracle of Delphi, was the priestess at the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, located on the slopes of Mount Parnassus. The Pythia was widely credited for her prophecies inspired by Apollo. The Delphic oracle was established in the 8th century BC. The last recorded response was given in 393 AD, when the emperor Theodosius I ordered pagan temples to cease operation. During this period the Delphic Oracle was the most prestigious and authoritative oracle in the Greek world. The oracle is one of the best-documented religious institutions of the classical Greek wo...
 
5:51 PM
folkes!
please ask me about SBRM!
 
rlc
see? so a good garbage collector would use the fumes from the garbage to know what magic to apply to free the resources :-)
 
LOL
But don't make the Garbage Collector too conscious, it might decide to go on a strike.
 
rlc
I can't argue against RAII with a straight face - sorry :-)
 
So, put on your queer face!
 
@FredOverflow Intellisense goes on strikes all the time. Not sure if that's because it's too intelligent, or too stupid.
 
5:57 PM
@Xaade I have the same problem sometimes
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Are you sure they bought Borland? Or are you talking of Embarcadero buying their C++ compiler?
 
@sbi No, it was Watcom C++, as I said a couple of lines later.
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Oh, I missed this. Sorry.
 
had to write SQL today to create some database tables... was so long since I'd done that...
had forgotten how to create Foreign keys.. lol took a while to get it right again.
 
@TonyTheTiger Foreign keys? What are you, a locksmith?
 
6:13 PM
ugh.... gah.... clopen sets are pwning me again.
 
6:34 PM
If the second spot on the Monopoly board gets renamed to "gas", and you start the game by rolling a 2, what did you just do?
If you're giving directions to your house and they're coming north on main road, and the sideroad after your neighborhood is named "gas", what do you tell them not to do?
If you're in a dungeon, and the loot "gas" drops, but you don't want it and choose to not roll for it, what did you just do?
If the superbowl ball is nicknamed "gas" and you tell your receiver to "go long", what should you do next?
 
 
1 hour later…
SD
7:56 PM
cout << "Sup guise." << endl;
 
Xeo
8:18 PM
@Xaade It's too sensible.
 
8:54 PM
@Xeo I'll take senile.... that's close to your word.
@SD Sorry, I left my jit compiler at home.
 
Xeo
error: 'cout' was not declared in this scope
error: 'endl' was not declared in this scope
 
9:15 PM
#include <iostream>
 
Xeo
@Xaade still
 
what's cout... it's been so long
 
Xeo
1
Q: Is this a valid (ab)use of lambda expressions?

XeoLike we all know, it's not that easy to break from a nested loop out of an outer loop without either: a goto (Example code.) another condition check in the outer loop (Example code.) putting both loops in an extra function and returning instead of breaking (Example code.) Though, you gotta ad...

 
9:34 PM
interesting one :)
 
Xeo
@jalf Yeah, but I got the feeling my future coworkers would hate me if I use it because they don't quite understand it. :(
 
@Xeo very likely'
 
Xeo
Woah, @sbi, do you start answering questions on SO again? :P
 
sbi
@Xeo Yeah, just this week. :) Don't know what came over me...
14 hours ago, by sbi
@TonyTheTiger Ha! I have, just this week, actually been looking out for questions I could answer (rather than stumbling into them) for the first time in what I believe have been months. If you look at my activity page, you'll see that I'm mostly commenting nowadays, and that my answers are few and very far between.
 
Xeo
@sbi Don't just change the function name :|
 
sbi
9:47 PM
@Xeo Why would I do that? If you got to frgl the brgls, you better say exactly that your frgling the brgls. :)
 
Xeo
@sbi @_@
I wonder if I just notified the user "_@" if s/he exists
 
needs to be at least 3 chars, as far as I know
 
Xeo
@ja really?
 
@Xe works with jal, ja doesn't
 
0
Q: Something strange in the tag synonym neigborhood

Fred NurkSomeone was able to suggest [c++11] be a synonym of [c++0x] (first line in screenshot), even though the reverse was already suggested (last line in screenshot). And, the reverse was able to be suggested in spite of much fewer questions for [c++11]. (I'm not saying either should be a synonym of ...

 
Xeo
9:53 PM
@FredNurk lol
 
@rlc @JerryCoffin: I haven't posted to csc++ about that and almost certainly won't; feel free to if you want to
 
Tagbusters!
Great, now the song is playing in my head, over and over again. Thanks.
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus Great, now the song is playing in my head, over and over again. Thanks.
 
So that's how the world ends, with a contagious tune.
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus You certainly did that to yourself.
 
9:58 PM
@CatPlusPlus I do what I can; now read the screenshot tooltip
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus Oh no! Please don't let it be this one. (The day the world dies is just starting here.)
 
Xeo
 

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