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5:00 PM
Plus, that outdated compiler means very outdated language.
 
they let you drag your tabs into (optionally named) groups, so the tab bar only shows one group at a time
easy way to switch between sets of related tabs
arstechnica.com/open-source/reviews/2010/08/… is a pretty good description, although from a few betas ago
 
sbi
@jalf Wow. Maybe that would spare me having to run six instances of FF?!
@jalf Ah! Off to read...
 
or maybe it was another article. I remember ars technica did a long article on it once
 
I like Tree Style Tab better than Fx4's grouping.
 
@sbi possibly! ;)
otherwise just open the tab groups thingy, and rearrange away. It's pretty intuitive once you've discovered that it's there
so shouldn't need a lot of reading
 
5:03 PM
{0.0}
 
I thought FF4 used what Chrome implemented, making every tab it's own process....
 
Or just {0}
 
@Xaade nope. They put certain plugins, like flash, in separate processes, but not whole tabs
 
@jalf dammit
 
seems like that's a completely orthogonal feature though?
 
5:04 PM
@Xaade I hope they never do that, or at least leave the option to turn it off.
 
my dreams.... squish-ed
 
anyway, it hasn't bothered me. As long as Flash is in a separate process, crashes aren't really a problem
@Xaade afaik, they're still working on it for a future release
 
@PiotrLegnica meh.... why???
 
but FF4 is pretty sweet anyway
 
@PiotrLegnica you like having one stupid website crash your whole browser....
Me, I like the tab independence.
 
5:05 PM
@Xaade well, show me that one stupid website. ;)
 
Well, because it's stupid. I don't want hundreds of processes.
 
As long as FF4 doesn't crash, I don't really see that it's so urgent
and it hasn't crashed on me yet
 
JS can be interrupted, and plugins really need only one external process.
 
well, some of the betas did, but I can live with that
 
Perhaps this chat is a good candidate for a Prism app.
 
5:06 PM
@PiotrLegnica Well, at the rate machines are getting resources, multiple processes has less disadvantages than it used to.
64-bit.... 80 gigs memory
 
@Xaade So you want a feature because it has fewer disadvantages than it used to? ;)
 
32 core processors
 
But N-hundred processes for just a browser? No thanks.
 
@Xaade and since most people aren't on a 32-core CPU with 80GB ram, I think spawning 300 processes might still be unnecessary ;)
 
@jalf yes.... it's economical.... That's like saying, sorry, I don't like PCs, they used to take up the size of a house....
Ignore that they got smaller.
@jalf not today....
 
5:08 PM
it's only one process per tab and one for the master
 
But before FF4, it couldn't compete with Chrome
 
and considering that it makes each tab protected from the misdoings of any other tab
 
@Xaade How is it economical to add a feature which has some disadvantages just because it used to have more disadvantages?
 
And hundreds of tabs.
 
you have hundreds of tabs?
I have a 1080p screen and the max I could have here is about 20 tabs
 
5:09 PM
Yup. And @sbi has even more than me, so it's not that uncommon.
 
@DeadMG I think people are confusing their inability to manage tabs as a disadvantage to having multiple processes
 
@DeadMG I don't have hundreds, but often some 50-80
is one reason I like tab groups ;)
 
You want a browser that sticks hundreds of tabs in one process
 
@Xaade what? That doesn't even make sense
 
50 or 80 or even several hundred processes is no big deal
 
5:09 PM
You're saying that my usage pattern is bad because even though it does what I need, your favorite browser handles it badly?
 
I seriously don't want hundreds of websites sharing the same process memory space....
 
Sane people would say the browser should support the usage pattern that users find efficient
 
@jalf No, I'm saying my favorite browser doesn't handle it badly at all.
 
I want a browser which scales to hundreds of tabs. How it does that is none of my concern
@Xaade Really? Open 300 tabs then, and tell us how it's running
 
hundreds of processes is no big deal
 
5:11 PM
@jalf Yes, and multiple processes scales better than 300 tabs in one process
 
64 tabs ought to be enough for everyone.
if you ask me
 
@Xaade does it? Why?
 
If you have hundreds of tabs in a single process.... you eventually hit a process memory limit, then you have to page-swap tabs... and that's slow.
 
Given that the user only has one tab visible at a time, I fail to see the benefit in terms of scalability
 
Process memory limit? You just said 64-bit is here. :P
 
5:12 PM
@Xaade which memory limit? You just said we could assume a 64-bit system
and 80gb of ram
 
...
Common sense here please
 
and are you saying that a single process can access less memory than two processes without swapping?
 
Any suitable program can't assume 80gb of ram
 
How is that supposed to work? If your tabs take up more memory than you have, some of them will have to be swapped out. Putting them in separate processes won't change that
 
Spawning a new process is not that fast, either.
 
5:13 PM
However, multiple processes can take advantage of that
 
other than by marginally increasing total memory usage, and thus requiring more swapping
 
Ok listen to me slowly
 
@Xaade er, how?
multiple processes do not multiply available RAM
 
If you have lots of memory...... multiple processes will work better.

BECAUSE

Programs these days assume lower memory amounts, so when they allocate memory to a process they allocate X amount.

Multiple processes scales to larger available memory better because of this
 
@Xaade bwuh?
 
5:14 PM
ok
 
If both programs assumed the same 80 gig system, multiple processes wouldn't have this advantage
 
I'm up to 102 processes
 
programs these days don't assume anything like that. They allocate what they need, and leave the OS to deal with the details
 
and my Q6600, which is several years old, is happily dealing with it
5% memory use
uh
processor use
 
Programs allocate X unpaged process memory
 
5:16 PM
and, of course, now you're basing your argument on the assumptions that browser makers fail to optimize their own software for the usage patterns it shows'
which is absurd
 
In sports, how do you call the action when one team member has finished and passes some "token" to the next member?
 
No, I'm basing my argument on a reality
 
regardless of which strategy they use, I think we can assume that the browser will be developed to work well with the chosen strategy
Yeah thanks, you jsut reminded me of the last time I tried to have an argument with you
 
On a hypothetical machine you'd be right....
 
Your reality had nothing to do with anyone else's reality then, and that hasn't changed, I see
 
5:17 PM
@jalf process only get X process memory unpaged....
that's reality
 
What do you mean by 'unpaged'?
 
sbi
@DeadMG I have 1920x1280 (+ 1280*1024 at work, and, if I can be bothered, at home) and usually employ a three-digit number of open tabs, currently across six open browser windows.
 
@FredOverflow: it's a changeover
 
Otherwise a single process would take up all the available memory on the machine for itself
 
no, reality is that 1) you don't know what you're talking about, and 2) you're one of those people who don't care about that, and 3) that means I'm not interested in debating with you
@Xaade please, go back to CS 101, and learn how an OS works
and how virtual memory works
 
5:18 PM
honestly, my hard drive is slowing down the PC more than 100 processes
don't see why 300 would be any different
 
@DeadMG I am wondering if that makes sense as a method name in a tetris game. What do you think of the following?
 
@DeadMG well, give it a try ;)
 
private void changeOver()
{
    currentPiece.placeOnBoard();
    board.eraseFullLines();
    fetchNextPiece();
}
 
although it did consume 1.5GB of RAM
to open like 50 tabs
 
@DeadMG I'd consider that to be a bit of a disadvantage ;)
 
5:19 PM
but they were all open to an actual web page
true
but last I checked, FF uses more memory than Chrome
 
I don't really understand how my argument is wrong
 
I have something like 50 tabs open right now, with FF using 600MB
So I guess that's no longer the case ;)
 
How much memory does a process use?
 
@FredOverflow: It's a tetris game, name the method by the event in tetris
 
I don't want to name a method by what causes its exectuion, but instead by what it is doing.
I tried that before and named it theEagleHasLanded btw ;)
 
sbi
5:20 PM
@DeadMG My Laptop currently has ~120-150 processes running. If my browser would put every tab into it's own process, this would at least double. I can't believe needlessly doubling the amount of <any resource> to be managed by the OS would be a wise idea. And so far I haven't read any advantage this would have.
 
anyway, might be worth pointing out that I never said I didn't want a process per tab, just that I'm more interested in the overall benefit. As long as FF4 doesn't actually crash, I don't see the urgent need for process isolation between tabs. And as long as resource usage is actually much higher for process-per-tab, it overall doesn't seem like a must-have feature
 
the main advantage I saw in it was that crashing one tab wouldn't crash the whole browser
something that I encountered very frequently and irritatingly in IE
 
Except it's not really a problem.
 
The main advantage I saw was how much faster Chrome ran period
 
but then, if you actually have a decent browser, you don't need to worry too much about the probability of crashing
 
5:21 PM
Most frequent crashers are plugins, which can be isolated with a single external process.
 
you're right though, if/when Firefox starts crashing on me, I'll definitely start clamoring for process isolation ;)
 
So if Chrome is totally wrong on this issue... then somewhere they made up for it big-time
 
And if browser itself has crasher bugs, then tab isolation is not a solution.
 
@Xaade you do know that FF4 is jsut as fast as chrome, right?
 
Negative.
 
5:22 PM
unlike older versions which were awful
 
Chrome's still faster
However, I like FF better
 
ah, don't worry about it. It's not the first vital piece of knowledge you've shown yourself to lack in this discussion
 
I like FF addons better, I like FF better....
 
honestly, I've never had a problem with Chrome tabs crashing either
hence my new feeling that it may be redundant
 
I have.....
 
5:23 PM
@DeadMG me neither
 
Chrome tabs crash on me....
 
Chrome bluescreened last time I tried to install it ,)
does that count?
 
FF crashes on me too
 
no
 
The difference being in Chrome I hit refresh.... In FF I reopen chrome and have it figure out which tabs I had open
 
5:23 PM
If everything crashes that often, then the fault might lie somewhere else entirely. ;]
 
but then again, honestly, I only ever have like ten tabs open at most
 
@jalf hahaha
 
@PiotrLegnica that often is subjective
 
25 mins ago, by jalf
@PiotrLegnica sanity is overrated anyway
 
and my primary rig has 6GB of RAM, so
RAM exists to be used, not wasted ;)
 
5:24 PM
yeah, getting this laptop with 8GB has really sped things up for me too
 
I think @sbi must the the tab overlord or something... I don't ever have more then 20 tabs open
 
Fx has had session restore since 2.0 or so, I think.
 
Nah... he just never closes tabs
 
I use Session Manager anyway.
 
session restore is decent solution... hitting reload on an open browser is better.
 
5:25 PM
@PiotrLegnica only in the real world. I think it's pretty obvious by now how much that matters to certain people
 
Making browser not crash in the first place is the solution. ;)
 
so, did @sbi run off to rearrange all his tabs? ;)
 
@jalf Don't be a douche
 
@Xaade don't worry, I'm not
I just don't like trying to debate with people who waste my time
 
sbi
@jalf Unfortunately it is. For me, FF currently uses 1.3GB of RAM, and over the last 36 hrs it has gotten considerably slower. If I restart it, it will usually need only half the memory to display the same amount of tabs, and be much faster.
 
5:27 PM
@jalf possibly he's putting them in alphabetical order and forgot about quicksort :)
 
sbi
@jalf I'm in the middle of it, but can't tear myself from this discussion.
 
@sbi yeah but we were comparing to @DeadMG's Chrome with 50 tabs, which used 1.5GB
 
@sbi caching memory?
 
@sbi I know how that problem feels :)
 
Explorer was really bad at that.... caching everything I looked at.... gobbling up resources.....
 
sbi
5:28 PM
WILL YOU PLEASE STOP BOTHERING EVERYONE ON SO CHAT WITH THESE SILLY OFFENSIVE WARS?
 
my 8GB of RAM don't make much problems with my 20 tabs
 
k, I'm off to cook dinner
 
@sbi @ who?
 
Aren't most wars offensive?
 
both offensive and defensive at the same time, one would think
 
5:29 PM
@jalf wars are also deadly if they involve bullets
 
@Tony only if people get hit
 
sbi
@jalf Wow, that's a lot of memory! FF needs that much for a three digit number of open tabs after I have it running for a couple of days. I guess it's all the overhead of creating processes...
 
Here is picture of Tina Turner.
 
- Do bullets even work here?
 
sbi
@Xaade The chat doesn't show who considers something offensive/spam. It just shows the number of users who agree.
 
5:30 PM
Apparently not.
 
anyway, to summarize, you gotta hand it to both FF and Chrome, for keeping each others on edge. Imagine how sluggish FF woudl've been by now, if Chrome hadn't shown up
 
<BULLET> @PiotrLegnica </BULLET>
that's an XML bullet
 
Sorry that I find scathing remarks offensive.
 
no, it's an XML BULLET
an XML bullet would be <bullet></bullet>
 
I don't have an actual argument.... I'm just going to say you're an idiot....
 
sbi
5:31 PM
@jalf I was referring to the wars of marking something as offensive/spam. We had that when I posted a picture of a dead kitten. The problem with this is that the whole of SO chat gets to see those flags and is asked to decide on them. That's silly.
 
That's offensive
 
What flags? Did I miss something?
 
@Xaade I never said you were an idiot. Just that, as you just said yourself, you didn't have an actual argument
And I stand by that'
Anyway, dinner time!
Have fun all
 
@tina that's the fate of a programmer sometimes... suffering
@PiotrLegnica I missed it too apparently... so no worries :P
 
sbi
@tina As I said, you will have to properly @address your gods for them to be informed of your messages.
 
5:34 PM
jalf is the java port of alf, heehee
6
 
Tina reminds me of Elijah story. Maybe you should @Alf some more.... he may be sleeping.
@StackedCrooked hah.... both can be very scathing
 
sbi
@PiotrLegnica Someone marked one of @jalf's messages as spam. And that was pretty silly, since it wasn't offensive at all:
9 mins ago, by jalf
@PiotrLegnica only in the real world. I think it's pretty obvious by now how much that matters to certain people
 
@tina @sbi never takes anything wrongly, he understands it exactly the way he means to
 
sbi
@Tony <snort/>
 
It's more funny to see @sbi and @alf get into it..... they get so vitriolic.
 
5:36 PM
@Xaade blistering, scorching, savage...
 
Too much tab sorting.
 
@StackedCrooked rather... yes. Am I believed to be misspeaking?
 
@sbi I was confused for a moment by "the whole chat sees them" thing, but I guess it's one of those fancy high-rep features.
 
sbi
@Xaade What? Please show me the last message I have been "vitriolic" in this discussion.
 
@sbi I don't think he meant in this discussion specifically
 
5:37 PM
@Xaade No, I just had to look up "scathing" in the dictionary as I'm not a native English speaker. And found some fun synonyms in the thesaurus.
 
sbi
@PiotrLegnica I don't think so. I suppose enough people clicked on "not offensive" fast enough for it to disappear.
 
by the way, one quick question. Does anyone know of a gdb frontend which is relatively lightweight (has to fit onto a virtual machine with limited disk space), and which doesn't crash every 10 minutes?
 
@jalf cgdb?
works pretty good for me.
 
@tina This is terribly out of date, and not applicable in Windows.
 
@StackedCrooked I'll give it a try. Thanks
 
5:40 PM
Is this retro Friday, or what? What's with all that 16-bitness.
 
You gotta watch MSDN too.... they like to hide the comment that the article is outdated, if you use the help tool through VS....
 
@jalf I've used for debugging server application over ssh. Does the job for me.
 
last time I tried ddd, it crashed constantly. Anyone know if it's stabilized in the last couple of years?
 
@PiotrLegnica 16-bit is so far advanced than 8-bit
 
@jalf I share the same terrible experience. Haven't bothered checking since...
 
sbi
5:43 PM
@jalf Well, whether he did or didn't, he could have answered himself. Making accusations and then to dodge explaining what they are based on is pretty lame, to say the least.
 
It gets at least twice as many more memory addresses
It's not really an accusation.
More of an observation.
You're arguments with Alf get heated.... unless it's in jest and I just fail to read that.
@sbi sometimes it looks to me like you really "hate" each other.
 
This is a picture of a Belgian prince.
 
Since I'm not keen on how you typically interact with him, I don't claim to accuse you assertively.... but it certain feels that way.
 
just checking here, when you say Alf, are you talking about me or the norwegian guy?
 
@Xaade I don't think it's like that, they're just being to the point with each other
 
5:45 PM
Exactly
I understand that it's debate as usual
But there's a lot of personal attacks thrown in.

I just learned to assume this is how people debate in this chat.
 
@jalf your name on this chat is jalf, no?
@Xaade depends if you take it personal or not
 
@jalf I'm sorry.... I'm not sure, since I don't really share the same reality as you???
 
@Tony everytime I see your name I'm reminded of this. Every single time...
 
@Xaade there @jalf and @alf
 
The heated atmosphere is a leftover from an earlier topic. ;)
 
5:48 PM
@Tony : no I just find it offensive whenever someone half reads what I say and assumes I'm ignorant.
 
@StackedCrooked hahahahaha :)
 
@Tony as far as I know, yes. Just checking, since people do get names wrong from time to time ;)
@Xaade No need to worry about that. I read what you said fully, and because it was wrong, I assumed you're ignorant
 
No you didn't.
 
@Xaade don't take offense and don't take things on here personal either... it's a chat... whatever is said is said... it's mostly nothing personal and don't assume anything!
@jalf assumption is the mother of all fuckups
 
I said that from my experience, programmers sometimes limit process memory. In that case, a multiple process browser would scale to large amounts of memory better.
 
5:50 PM
@Tony who is the father then?
 
@StackedCrooked ignorance :)
 
I think that it's pretty accurate statement.
 
@Tony I thought ignorance is bliss.. Might need to re-evaluate that...
 
@Xaade how can you tell? I know what i read. You don't
unless you can read my mind
 
I guess it's a memory management tool, because if you expect a program to use X memory, and it's using more than that, you have a resource problem.
 
5:51 PM
Oh, forgot to mention I also based the assumption on the fact that you were ignorant and wrong the last time I tried discussing something with you
 
@jalf This again.
 
If someone consistently acts like they're ignorant, you can't blame people for assuming that they are.
 
Except browsers don't limit their own memory, because why would they? Firefox uses custom heap and preallocates memory AFAIK, but it's all growable.
 
@jalf I know you don't read half of what I say, because you respond to only half the information I say. If I cut my information in half, your response suddenly makes sense. I can reasonably guess that you're only reading half what I say.
 
problem is that we've had and still have someone else here that has been pissing people off on a regular basis, so now it's being slammed upon when there's attempt to piss off
 
5:53 PM
You're right, I don't know what you're thinking.
However, if everyone lived without guessing anything at all.... people wouldn't be able to make any decisions....
 
@Xaade Ignorance is not always a bad thing, it just means you're not informed fully
I'm ignorant on things that have been discussed here and when I don't know something or am wrong, then I'm willing to accept that, if what the other guy is saying is correct of course
 
But my statement was accurate
The only thing I'm ignorant of is how the browsers allocate memory for their processes
 
@Xaade Isn't it the processes themselves that need to allocate memory?
 
@jalf Claimed I'm ignorant of memory altogether, and he did so because he had to have thrown out half of what I said.
 
@Xaade I'm not sure what your statement was, but don't try to be obsessively right about something, it happens that one is wrong, accept it and correct it and move on
@Xaade read up on memory management... I don't know, try to find out from reliable sources if what you said is correct
 
sbi
5:57 PM
@Xaade I certainly don't hate @Alf, although he did, occasionally, take things personal, and does have a tendency to overreact in those cases. But I did know him before he hit SO, so I was prepared for that to happen.
 
@Tony : Ok, maybe I need to rephrase.... The way you're handling this, and jalf is totally different. I don't appreciate the way jalf handles things. It's my fault I get defensive.... but damn.... does he have to be so scathing?
 
@Xaade I haven't followed the discussion but from what I see it seem that jalf has been a bit too harsh on you.
 
@Xaade no, I don't. ButI don't have to be all warm and cuddly either. ;)
 
@sbi I know you don't. Again, I'm only saying that's it's interesting to watch your debate, since they get so heated.... and neither one of you seems to be offended at how scathing the comments get.
 
as @sbi said, whatever goes on here, don't take it personally
 
sbi
5:59 PM
@Tony For a person your age you're pretty wise already. :)
 

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