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7:26 AM
I don't think that the compiler would be allowed to remove it, consider:
int main() {
while (true);
std::cout << "Hi there" << std::endl;
}
As it is (whether by mistake or intention), the program has no side effects, if the infinite loop is removed, then the program changes behavior and turns into something that salutes the user
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas The program would technically never get to the cout statement
 
Exactly, if the compiler removes the infinite loop it turns a non-terminating noop into a terminating salute, and that is a breach of the as-if behavior
 
as-if behavior ?
 
the as-if rule says that c++ compilers are allowed to be implemented however their creators want them to.
 
§1.9 foot-note 5: * “as-if” rule, because an implementation is free to disregard any requirement of this Interna- tional Standard as long as the result is as if the requirement had been obeyed, as far as can be determined from the observable behavior of the program.*
 
7:32 AM
The resulting program merely has to perfrom, in terms of its visible outputs, as-if the compiler was implemented in terms of the c++ abstract machine.
 
Basically, the optimizer can digest and spew anything as long as the perceived behavior would be as if the code you wrote had been executed as you wrote it.
I should probably have said: as-if requirement, rather than behavior...
 
and the perceived behaviour is defined in terms of the sequence of access to volatile variables, and calls to library functions
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas one wonders then what the point is of having a standard?
why do they put that in there?
 
so the compiler cannot optimize out the while(true) because the resulting program would have a different visible outcome. a call to std::cout
@Tony they put that in there because (a) implementing c++ in terms of an actual abstract state machine would be slow
(b) it allows implementers to implement optimizers, but still conform to the requirements of the standard
 
@ChrisBecke then they should just say they can optimize, but the standard should still be followed in terms of behaviour etc....
 
7:37 AM
@Tony um, and thats why that clause is there
 
to me, that doesn't really make much sense, but then again, maybe I'm not having the whole picture
 
"the standard should be followed in terms of behaviour" == "programs should act, AS-IF, the compiler followed the standard"
 
@ChrisBecke yes but that clause states that the visible behaviour of the program has to be what the standard says, says nothing about optimizations.... or is it me that don't understand standardese
 
In fact I see it the other way around. That is not a get-out-of-jail card to do whatever you please, but on the opposite a requirement that whatever you do, it has to behave as the standard mandates.
 
@Tony If they don't define what the visible output of the program is
then the as-if rule would imply that the entire standard has to be strictly adhered to
its only by defining the visible output that the line can be drawn
 
7:39 AM
You can optimize away a variable, but only if you don't change the behavior with the variable being present, you can unroll a loop, but only if loop unrolling does not change the perceved behavior...
 
between what behavior must be adhered to, and what behaviour must not
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas that means that the program could be doing something entirely different to what it says, though, not? or have I gone mad?
 
But what is behaviour? except the visible "output" of the program
The behaviour of the program is what you see. Does it format the hardrive, or not?
 
@ChrisBecke some programs do a lot of things that aren't seen by a user
 
@Tony The actual executed code can be completely different than what you wrote as long as the actual result is the same.
 
7:41 AM
visible == any side effect caused by a library io call
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas ah now that makes more sense
 
calling "format" is a visible output
 
int main() {
int a = 1;
a *= 2;
a += 7;
a *= 8;
std::cout << a << std::endl;
}
Now the compiler can decide to just implement:
int main() {
std::cout << 72 << std::endl;
}
 
@Tony The visible behaviour is defined as, not what the user "sees", but the sequence of library calls, and accesses to volatile variables.
 
If you have more than one variable and they are modified, the modifications (as long as they don't interfere with the perceived behavior) can be reordered by the compiler.
 
7:44 AM
one thing I don't get, the return value from main isn't explicitly mentioned. So is
int main(){ return 7; } actually required to return 7?
 
If you have a copy of the standard, read §1.9, if you don't have one, try to download one of the drafts for c++0x, that section has been rewritten (sequence points removed from the standard, replaced by other ordering)
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas I sometimes use volatile (in toy code) to avoid GCC optimizations, like this code that pushes non-zero values on the stack, and then verifies if value-initialization really works:
struct MyClass
{
MyClass() : mFirst() { }

MyClass(int inFirst, int inSecond) : mFirst(inFirst), mSecond(inSecond) { }

int mFirst;
int mSecond;
};


int main()
{
// Fill the stack with non-zeroes
// Use volatile to prevent GCC optimizations.
{
volatile MyClass mc(1, 2);
volatile int a = 3;
}
{
volatile MyClass mc;
volatile int a;

std::cout << "mc.mFirst: " << mc.mFirst << std::endl;
std::cout << "mc.mSecond: " << mc.mSecond << std::endl;
std::cout << "a: " << a << std::endl;
}
return 0;
}
~
~
 
@ChrisBecke :) Indirectly (through the C standard) it requires that 0/EXIT_SUCCESS means successful completion while ≠0 or EXIT_FAILURE an implementation defined form of the status "unsuccessful-termination" is returned
 
But the c++0x standard is backwards compatible with the c++03 standard
which means c++03 programs compiled under c++0x have to behave coff AS-IF they were compiled with a c++03 conforming compiler :P
so sequence points are still a valid way of understanding the ordering of most c++ constructs that don't depend on c++0x features.
 
@ChrisBecke Not really, it means that a conforming C++03 program compiled with a conforming C++0x compiler should behave as if it had been compiled with a c++03 compiler
 
7:54 AM
ok ok. thanks for pointing out the missing conforming :P
non conforming programs arn't requried to conform, even under c++03 compilers so that is a redundant definition. thats my excuse
 
@ChrisBecke Ah, that... right :) My understanding is that they changed concept used to explain how the operations are sequenced, but that the new wording is compatible with the old with some minor differences (some things that used to be UB are now well defined, which means that since in a c++03 compiler they could get any result, the result in c++0x is just as valid as any other random outcome)
The very small difference is that some programs could produce nasal demons in the past but will not in the future, so programming is slightly less fun... I think that one such example is:
int i = 0;
int a = (++i)++;
In C++03 that is UB, in C++0x (don't quote me on that), it is well defined, as the ++i is sequenced-before the (_)++
 
...
....
I need to do a course on writing compilers. how would one even parse that expression?
 
Compilers are pretty much a black box to me...
 
I avoided compilers at school, and now I regret it, I would like to know more... I guess that it takes some time to understand programming languanges to be able to value what compilers do
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas yes, I think it probably requires pretty good understanding of what programming languages do to value the work a compiler does... I've come to value it more since I've been doing C++, however I still am in the dark about most things
is this question asked from a plain uknowing about C++ or is the asker simply not thinking?
0
Q: Translate from c# to c++

user660558this is a code sample from Microsoft(MSDN), could you please help me translate this code from c# into c++, I've been trying I, but I'm not really good in c++. private void dependency_OnChange( object sender, SqlNotificationEventArgs e) { // This event will occur on a thread pool thread. ...

I cannot seem to understand how someone would come to ask something like that, if you have any idea what you're actually asking.... it's not just merely a simple "conversion"....
and add the fact that this seems to be threaded code, it definitely doesn't add to simplicity <end of rant>
 
8:12 AM
I fought some translate from A to B questions before... now I avoid them.
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas that's probably the smartest thing to do :)
I'm not going to bother trying to say what I think on that thread...
 
uhm... with delegates :) That is a nice feature of C#... actually I like the code example... and if I knew anything on Microsoft windows UI I would even consider the question :)
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas It's just that this is not a simple operation to convert, I happen to know Windows UI stuff, cause I've done .NET develpment...
close or not close?
I voted to close....
he's talking unions and it's a struct that he's showing... wtf?
 
Do you know C#?
Can you create an array as a value-type?
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas no, arrays are reference types
 
8:24 AM
interesting... I bought a book on C#, "C# 4.0 in a Nutshell", and I started reading from page 1 to about 100, but the book being 1025 pages long, I only got through a 10% of the contents, and I don't even remember
The fact that I hardly ever start windows makes it hard to start playing with C#, and all those new features of C++0x to try...
 
8:37 AM
@DavidRodríguezdribeas I know how you feel, I have some Linux boxes and I hardly have time to play around with them, though I do like Linux very much :)
is it a good idea to make ctors explicit when they take any sort of args and only exceptionally not have them explicit?
 
I always wondered how bad a c++ version pragma could be
#pragma cppstdver(2003)
with explicit tagging in the cpp files, the standards committee could mandata actual breaking behaviour changes: like defaulting ctors to explicit and requiring an not_explicit tag to get the old behaviour
 
9:02 AM
@ChrisBecke Well, for one thing it would encourage users to never update their code to the current version. They'd just tag their files as C++98 or whatever, and write new files using c++11, and expect the compiler to sort it out. So overall, it'd lead to lower quality of code
second, it makes the standard a lot more complex in that it has to specify exactly how these interact (what happens if I link a c++98, a c++03 and a c++11 file together?)
 
@jalf the backwards compatability requirements lead to that situation anyway
 
and third, it makes compilers more complex (they effectively have to support all three versions fully and forever)
 
@tina 2.38 what? which units are these?
 
if thats in radians, then to translate to degrees:
degrees = (radians) * 180 / pi;
 
@ChrisBecke not quite. it leads to every file implicitly being C++11, and so it doesn't encourage developers to stick within the C++98 subset
anyway, I'm just guessing
 
9:06 AM
what kinda cast is this?
 (long)this
in a sprintf statement
 
converts your class pointer into a number
for display via %l
"%x", (void*) would probably be better
as thats not going to produce a good result on LLP64 compilers, such as msvc x64
 
@Tony a naughty C style cast
or is that not what you meant?
 
i prefer the alternate syntax for c style casts anyway, as it makes it more clear that you are trying to initialize a temporary long, with the input value:
intptr_t(this)
 
@thecoshman this is the code:
    char sNamespace[256]="NS";
   sprintf(sNamespace,"NS%d",(long)this);
 
@Tony reinterpret_cast<long>(this) --> basically to print the address of the object as a number
 
9:12 AM
@DavidRodríguezdribeas thx, that's what I was looking for
 
thats quite remarkable
 
@sbi how was the meetup last night?
 
@Tony yes, presumably that is with a class. most C style casts will use static_Cast<newType>(variableToCast); but that a pointer and a long are not really interchangeable, so you use reinterperate_cast like @DavidRodríguezdribeas said
 
@thecoshman but it's NOT a common thing to do?
 
@Tony well, casting is yes. That cast is presumably trying to output the address that 'this' points to
not sure how useful it is mind, maybe for debugging?
 
9:29 AM
@thecoshman it is used to create a unique name for a Python Namespace...; weird way of doing it, IMO
 
@Tony scwah? it's generating a names space at runtime?
 
@thecoshman seems so
 
well, it kind of makes sense... assuming that "NS" is unique
 
but... I thought names spaces where to help with scope resolution whilst programming?
 
@thecoshman this is for parse and executing scripts (Python 1.5)
yes I know it's rediculous I have to implement this, but I have no choice
 
sbi
9:43 AM
@Tony That was a lot of fun. Instead of the 18 who had committed on that meetup site, we were only 10 or 12, though, and at least I hadn't even committed, but it was still fun.
 
@sbi must have been somewhat odd to see the real faces behind the SO nicks, hehe
 
sbi
@Tony Actually, only two of those who turned up I knew: @balpha and @Konrad.
However, one thing keeps irking me: @Xeo didn't show up, so I couldn't check on her sex. I think this gives us a real, big incentive to keep up the fun about her trying to convince us she's male.
 
@sbi true that :)
@sbi really wish I could have been there, I'm curious to meet some of the people I've been chatting with here in this Lounge
 
sbi
@Tony You'd have found only me and Konrad.
 
@sbi well, that's a start....
@sbi I don't think IRL that anyone calls you "sbi", lol
 
sbi
9:49 AM
@Tony We had little badges with our names on our shirts, and mine read "sbi", so that was that. :)
 
@sbi hehe, the real "Grumpy Old Man"... :)
 
@sbi would be tempting to abuse this and just write on my badge "Master"
 
sbi
(I did reveal, though, when asked, that "sbi" stems from an old nickname of mine, so it's actually pretty close to what old friends still call me.)
 
uhm.. What does sbi stand for? How did you choose it, over say GOM (Grumpy Old Man)?
 
@sbi are you not worried then that those that have now met you, might reveal your identity to those here on the chat, or does that not bother you
 
9:51 AM
(I seem to be always late)
 
sbi
@DavidRodríguezdribeas Yeah, couldn't we flag those two messages for the moderators to switch them? :)
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas I don't know what it stands for, I've just taken it for granted... 'sbi" is the guy with the gorilla avatar... identity settled :)
I'm just Tony, no more to it! :)
 
@Tony my thinking too, sbi = lethargic gorilla
I would upload an avatar, but I have grown sort of attached my fractal, four eyed, green mess
 
sbi
@Tony One of the people who is here in the chat sometimes knows my true name, because I once sent him a mail. Other than that, all they have to go from is my face. Mind you, you can find pictures of me on google images, and @balpha took pictures which he might upload, but hopefully it will take a while before the bots cross-connect those to my real identity.
 
@thecoshman hahah :)
@sbi yea I hope so for you, if you want to keep yourself anonymous from this place
 
sbi
9:55 AM
@Tony Actually I've only picked the avatar after I hit the chat, which was ~3-4 months ago. And that Grumpy Old Man meme came even later.
 
@sbi I prefer to think that we are anti-causal... causality is so overrated
2
 
@sbi oh wow, I had no idea...
 
sbi
@thecoshman I don't think lethargic fits. After all, @balpha came with greetings from Jeff, and he wants me to be less annoying. :)
 
@sbi lol that's funny, so you know Jeff IRL?
 
sbi
@Tony No, not at all. But apparently I had made enough fuss recently for him to remember to make that remark to balpha.
 
9:57 AM
@sbi that gorilla looks pretty dam chilled out to me!
 
sbi
@thecoshman Maybe this changes when I tell you that I find it neigh impossible to tell your mandala from some other users', with tina among them?
 
@sbi hahah, yea well you've got a name for yourself, for sure :)
 
sbi
@thecoshman Yeah, I've seen it all before.
 
@sbi OH GOD :O
 
@sbi me too :)
 
sbi
9:59 AM
@Tony It seems I have a knack for doing that. :(
 
let me sort this one out...
 
@sbi at least you're honest and sincere in what you think and you say it as it is!
not many people can be credited with that statement, imo
 
@Tony the only way to be really, IMO
 
sbi
@thecoshman Why did I know that this would help? :)
 
ffs, this is some leg work!
 
sbi
10:02 AM
@Tony Oh yeah, I'm usually the one blurting out about that big, pink elephant in the room everyone's avoiding thinking of, let alone looking at, or even, gasp!, talking about. I can't help it, can't stop myself. That does have its disadvantages, too. For one, I'd probably never fit into a corporate environment.
 
@sbi so what, if you don't fit in, whoever said that 'fitting in" was a good thing?
"You laugh cause I'm different, I laugh cause you're all the same"
 
sbi
@Tony That's a nice one! Who said that?
 
There! Mistake now :D
 
sbi
<reloads_page/>
Ah, I know that one already!
Good. Welcome to the club of properly initiated chatters!
 
@sbi and?
 
10:08 AM
@sbi I found it once somewhere, cannot remember who it come from, but it's a good trueism though :)
 
We shall ignore that this is the most interesting photo of me for nearly two years :P
 
sbi
@thecoshman Fine by me. Really, I don't care that much what you guys use, as long as I can tell you apart.
#someetup hangover ;-)
 
@Tony not sure where I head for first either
 
@thecoshman no different then before...
 
@Tony refresh :P
 
10:11 AM
@thecoshman yes that's better, had not reloaded...
 
sbi
3 mins ago, by sbi
<reloads_page/>
 
@thecoshman funny how you put under website "none_atm", I have a website, but I don't want to put it there, cause I'd reveal my true identity... which kinda bothers me (for some reason)
now we need @tina to change her avatar to something more "tina-like", lol
@tina your avatar is so like that of a few others around, its hard to tell you apart sometimes, so change it to something more unique
@tina I just said what I want to say...
 
sbi
@Tony I drew the line when I found out that, if you type my first name into google and keep typing, it suggested the full name while you're halfway through my last name. That was the moment I decided to go undercover.
 
@sbi yea, my name is already strewn all over, if you know who I am, and in some places where I really didn't ask it to be...
so I've been more careful about my identity since
 
sbi
@Tony It seems it's by Jonathan Davis
 
10:20 AM
@sbi Nice one! On tracing the source of my quote!!! :)
 
sbi
@Tony Well, that's what google's for, after all. :)
Anyway, I do need to work now. I got until Monday morning to fix three bugs, and I really don't want to have to work on the weekend.
 
@tony just a little bit of bullet dodging :P
 
:p LOL
 
 
1 hour later…
11:33 AM
@Tony I do actually have a half ready website. just wanting till I have time to get it ready and buy domain for it
 
11:46 AM
@thecoshman I have a website up and running... just no one knows about it :p
 
12:04 PM
@Tony oh secretive
 
@thecoshman lol
 
to get what...?
 
@tina are you talking about the math mean or what?
excess: too much of something
 
excess is when you have too much of something. access is when to access a file
 
access: the right to obtain or make use of or take advantage of something
 
12:12 PM
or you mean 'assess' as in to study something
 
or the right to enter somewhere
yes access endpoint sounds correct
@tina use a dictionary (google) and a translation dictionary to your native language
 
I think you mean say "it is difficult to assess if the end point is right or not?" meaning it is difficult to work out if the end point is right
 
achieve: to do; to succeed in doing; accomplish
@thecoshman yea you might have a point there, without context it's hard to tell though
@tina depends on the context
 
I think Tony's advice is best, write it in your native tongue then use Google translate
 
is an endpoint like a network (computer) type endpoint?
@tina just type the word into google for spelling, if it's wrong, google will suggest the right one to you
 
12:16 PM
@tina it might just be that it is out of context, but that makes no sense to me
 
@thecoshman that's why I was ranting about context earlier... lol
 
hello, anybody knows how to get the current bitmap displayed in MFC?
 
Apr 4 at 8:51, by sbi
@tina You really, really, really, need a spillchucker. (And did I mention it's urgent?)
 
@tina in my head that sounded like some sort of damsel in distress from an Indian Jones style movie
 
I always forget if this should be const or not, if the members of the passed object will be altered:
 void InitializeParameters(ScriptingParameters& params);
should ScriptingParameters& be const, if inside the func I will be changing values of it's members?
 
12:23 PM
@Tony if params will be altered then it can't be const can it, const is your way of promising you want change it
 
@thecoshman ok, yea, donno for some reason I thought that the members would not be affected by const, but I guess I'm confusing with something else
 
well... from my understanding, if that data with in params is going to change, then you shouldn't try to claim they won't
 
@tina that means when something should be done by, or in by
 
@tina nope. due data is like with a library book, when you have to return it by
@tina erm... not really. a due date would be a deadline datae. a last date might also be a deadline day, the last day you can submit something then yes its the due date. but if you said "the last data I ate pie" you can't change that to "the due data I ate pie", it just dosen't make sense
 
@tina look at defintion of due and see what fits with what you're trying to say google.nl/search?hl=nl&q=define%3A+due
 
12:31 PM
@tina no, generally "due data" refers to when something has to be done by. "last date" by it self it actually rather vague and needs a bit more context to give it the meaning
 
dictionaries have a reason for existence... just saying :)
@tina do you get what that says?
 
sbi
43
A: How to pass objects to functions in C++?

sbiMy rules of thumb: Pass arguments per const reference, except when they are to be changed inside the function and such changes should be reflected outside, in which case you pass per non-const reference the function should be callable without any argument, in which case you pass per pointer,...

 
@sbi Thx :)
 
a "due date" is a value that something can have. You can't have just a "last date", it needs something to go with, "last access date" "last possible submission date"
you welcome btw ¬_¬
 
@thecoshman :)
 
12:47 PM
@Tony :P
 
this is not C++, but afaik this is just impossible, what OP is asking
0
Q: Launch modaldialog from server-side

KoenHi, I have created 2 modaldialogs. My problem is that I need to show them from server-side if a few conditions are met (after clicking a button). I've been googling around and there was a solution to add the extender to an invisible control and launch it from code. But since there's nothing show...

does that not defy all sandbox measures there exist? is that not asking to control another machine if you could that?
 
I think he means he wants client software to trigger a pop-up on server software, which of course is possible
the client just needs to send a message to server. server reads message and goes "oh yer POP"
 
@thecoshman so he wants his modaldlg to pop up on the server?
then I must really have lost the plot to not understand that...
 
@Tony I think so... which (depending on what his server is) is either a trivial task or going to involve, like you said, breaking out of a sandbox environment via an exploit
Seeming as he mentions C# and asp.net I am not sure exactly what he is trying to do
oh god, some of the stuff I have written in this report are confusing me! I do not have long left to get it finished though :S
 
1:12 PM
folks
 
what's your guys take on this and how is my answer:
0
A: Array Created Statically in DLL Gets Overwrittend by calling Program

TonyThe variables that are created in your DLL are the same one's the program uses, so it can overwrite them, if there is an error in your program. This looks wrong to me: int __stdcall foo1(){ str = new MyStruct; } int __stdcall foo2(){ str.LC->objF1(); } int __stdcall foo3(int val){...

@JohannesSchaublitb hello
 
Suddenly I feel better about Jeff
 
@Tony I'm not too good with DLL usage. I thought that a DLL was meant to be responsible for its own variables? Don't you normally uses access functions?
 
@ChrisBecke yea that's a pretty strange question, but I thought I'd try be helpful
 
@Tony the question makes no sense and omits important details. Where and what is "str" ? Why is the word "static" used at all?
 
1:19 PM
@ChrisBecke noob user
@thecoshman yes dll should be responsible for it's own memory, but from my understanding the variable's that he writes to in the DLL from the program are always the same, I mean his program doesn't make copies to use in its own address space and then modifies them...
 
edit: Something thats not an array, that is created dynamically in a dll, gets overwritten
 
@ChrisBecke are you proposing a better title?
 
kind of.
 
@ChrisBecke you're free to change it
 
as soon as I figure out what he is really asking
 
1:25 PM
@ChrisBecke yea I tried to answer only what I understood from his question or what I thought i understood
 
cpx
@JohannesSchaublitb hi, I'm your new twitter fan :).
 
@cpx yea he needs fans, cause he's a template god :)
 
Anyone in here good with eclipse? I'm having a problem with the CDT editor...
 
@SamBloomberg I have used CDT it a couple of times, but not much...
 
Yeah... I'm having a problem where the editor won't open C/C++ files
 
1:30 PM
@cpx ohh great!
ahaha
 
Wow. I just realized that the name of this room is a template....
Lol that took me a while to realize
 
I don't think I can help with your eclipse issue... try reinstalling CDT
 
@DavidRodriguezDriveas Yeah... Tried. Didn't work. What I think I need to do is create a new project and see if it can open those files. If it can, then its a problem with the project config. If not, CDT.
Actually, what really sucks is that i can't find a good alternative to eclipse for Ubuntu that has even close to as many features
Actually, I can't believe how few good IDEs there are for C++. Code::Blocks is OK i guess, Eclipse is great when it works, VC++ is windows only, Qt Creator is mainly for Qt and is missing a huge amount of basic features...
 
@SamBloomberg VI or VIM
back to basics! :)
 
@Tony Well, yeah, but I mean full blown IDEs. I can't be bothered to make my own makefiles
Actually, its more that I love the integration with ANTLR in eclipse, which makes my life so much easier
 
1:40 PM
@SamBloomberg I know you want a full blown IDE, but if no other options, then that's a last resort
 
VC++ not work on WINE yet?
 
@Tony yeah. I was using gedit for a while
 
QtCreator looked nice... what do you miss from that IDE?
 
@David basic file functions
 
Dev-C++ is another option, but I think thats even more lightweight than Code::Blocks
 
1:40 PM
@SamBloomberg like?
 
In terms of polish and features I think:
Eclipse > QTCreator > Code::Blocks > Dev-C++
Unless you are on Apple: in which case:
XCode > (everything)
 
Xcode has some strange behaviors editing text.
 
so you can develop in C++ for apple with XCode?
 
In order to select from the current cursor position until the end of the line you can normally do this: Shift + Command + Arrow-Right. But then you can't move the cursor to the left anymore to reduce the selection.
Little things like that can drive one crazy.
So I switched to QtCreator on Apple. :)
 
QtCreator can't rename projects inside the editor, which sucks
kind of annoying
 
1:45 PM
@SamBloomberg The trick seems to be to edit the project files instead. It doesn't really bother me.
 
@StackedCrooked You can change all those under the keybindings. I have mine working with devstudio compatible selection and cursor movement bindings
@Tony yes. Allthough, when developing "For apple" you will probably finding yourself doing at least some Objective-C interop.
 
@ChrisBecke I'm not sure these particular cursor movement settings can be changed. I'll check it out now..
 
If you try hard enough, you can wrap up all the objective-c access in pure C/C++ calls to the objective-c runtime, which is a pure C-api lib.
 
@ChrisBecke This afternoon I updated to Xcode 3.2.6 and can't seem to reproduce this particular issue anymore.
 
XCode 4 is sitting in the app store. $5. and its looking very very pretty
in a way that ms products just don't excite me any more
 

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