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sbi
8:06 PM
Ok, I spent the last 30mins reading up on what happened here all day while I was busy taking care of two kids who've called the flue (don't ask) and will now dump all my comments (what, "holding back"? me??) into the room. So you'd better watch your shoes, 'cos they might get yucky!
@Tony Networking is only fun on facebook. If cables are involved, it's a pain in the donkey.
@DeadMG I, too, had to learn a bit of PROLOG when I studied plus a bit of LISP. Both were painful at first. But I appreciated having learned some PROLOG when I had to write yacc syntax (yuk) for a compiler construction. Try to be more open-minded about your education. A little bit of this, a little bit of that actually is pretty good. Better than being locked in into whatever your university considers The One True Way(TM). Mostly you learn how to learn new stuff.
Yes, examinations seem stupid, even in hindsight. But, you know, I'd trade your examination for my deadline (Feb, 14th) any day.
@Tony Don't let this guy talk you into something. PROLOG is declarative programming, a very strange way of solving your problem when you used to program procedurally (if that's even a word), but, indeed, a very elegant way!
@DeadMG That's because you are a beginner. PROLOG is for systems I would not want to have to write the algorithms myself. But that doesn't necessarily mean you start out with such system.
 
hey, I have an open mind- I rejected it after trying it and programming in it
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach I really can't think of anyone here today you would want to write an "idiot's boogie" about! If at least the moment you disappeared to make this would give me a clue... :)
 
a procedural program just seems a lot more... to the point
 
sbi
@FredNurk I suppose now that we've had std::string for more than a decade there might actually be more matrix classes than string classes out there.
@David19801 A very promising entry for The Most Pert Comment Of The Month(TM).
@JohnDibling Because some idiot clicked on the down-pointing arrow.
@Dead Child, stop speaking up while I'm in dumping mode! You gotta wait! (Did I mention I took care of two kids today?)
@Xaade Wow, "a jealousy downvote". That's one term I've never heard but which, on SO, made immediate sense to me. :)
 
@sbi no it was not related to SO. just that first of all, that boogie is wrong in almost all respects (like, is it E major or E minor? it just haphazardly goes back and forth between them keys!). and I found it amuzing to call it "Idiot's boogie", because who would say, "I like the idiot's boogie?". Well, @Johannes. Thanks!
 
sbi
8:11 PM
@DeadMG I understood that, and it's why I explained that I only learned to appreciate it much later.
 
I'm not sure necessarily that I disapprove of that paradigm
more that I just dislike PROLOG
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach Yeah, @Johannes is always a fine lad to count on for this kind of stuff. :)
 
it leaves way too much to the imagination- where did my variables come from? What type are they? Name them specially and they have special effects? What's their lifetime?
especially the name them specially thing
that was an instant "The guy who designed this language had no idea WTF he was doing" moment
 
sbi
@Alf Oh, and I know exactly two things about music: (A) how to use my stereo and iTunes (B) there's music I like and music I don't like, and usually I don't know why.
 
sbi
8:14 PM
@DeadMG You're still trapped in static typed, procedural thinking. If you never make it out of this cage, you'll never understand what this is all about.
 
I like statically typed, procedural thinking
you read a procedural program, and it does what it says it does.
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach What I meant to say I couldn't tell an E minor from a fence post if it hit me in the groin. :)
 
however, having had a hand at both Haskell and PROLOG, they seem to be extremely full of minor subtleties and way too much syntax and way too few keywords
I'd be much happier with PROLOG if you wrote singleton X instead of _X or whatever that thing is
 
sbi
@DeadMG No. It does what the algorithm specifies. Sometimes that's very hard to grasp from reading the code. A declarative program, OTOH, describes the problem it's supposed to solve. I can imagine that, with some praxis, it's actually easier to read.
(The grammar for a specific language is easier to read than the prser's code, isn't it?)
 
a procedural program's behaviour does not change depending on what you name it's variables
assuming that you kept out of the implementation-reserved zones, anyway
 
sbi
8:19 PM
@DeadMG Um, what?? Are you sure you're not describing C++?? Oh wait. Ok. You said minor subtleties. That can't be C++, then. In C++ subtleties are all but minor.
@DeadMG That's not procedural vs. declarative, that's statically typed vs. dynamically typed. Don't mix these.
 
I'll be the first to admit, C++ has plenty of .. darker corners
@sbi: That's why I said that I hate PROLOG, not I hate declarative
 
sbi
@DeadMG Ha, that's the Brit shining through. All understatement, are you? (I wouldn't describe hell as "has plenty of dark corners.)
 
hell is full of fire and doesn't have any dark corners :P
 
@DeadMG FYI, Markku Sakkinen has written two papers called "The darker side of C++" and "The darker side of C++ revisited".
 
who's that? Edit: And why do I care, as opposed to anyone else?
 
8:22 PM
@DeadMG Because you brought up the "dark corners" of C++?
 
sbi
@DeadMG You said you prefer procedural over declarative, and then went to bash on dynamic typing to make that point. That made your point rather, erm, weak, you know?
 
@sbi: I never made that point
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link? Link?
 
@sbi: I was very specific, in that I said that I despise PROLOG
 
@sbi google google google?
 
sbi
8:22 PM
@DeadMG Which was my point, actually...
 
@sbi: Never said that I hate declarative languages
 
sbi
7 mins ago, by DeadMG
you read a procedural program, and it does what it says it does.
 
@sbi I haven't used Prolog since student days, like 1986/87, but what hit me about it was (1) how incredibly complex algorithms became because of the need to forcefit Prolog code to express them, and (2) how incredibly enthusiastic the pure academics were. Today we can laugh at "The Fifth Generation" (both an all-out Jap effort at AI and a book by Feigenbaum and McCorduck). It was incredibly serious, incredibly much money down the drain, but not a word about it anywhere.
 
never said that wasn't true of declarative languages in general
you accused me of liking static typing and procedural languages, and I do
and I despise PROLOG
nothing here hating on declarative languages in general
 
sbi
8:25 PM
@FredOverflow At first you tried to sell us fefe as "Markku Sakkinen", which confused me very thoroughly. :)
@FredOverflow Oh my, what a yucky PDF.
 
@sbi Ich hatte aus Versehen einen Link zu tief bei Google kopiert :)
 
that paper is Pre-Standard
lol
 
yes, it is oooooooooold.
But so is D&E :)
 
sbi
@DeadMG There you do that again. That paper is so old, it starts out with calling C++ "a rather new language" with "no standardization underway"!
 
still many valid points though
 
8:28 PM
yes, I do tend to ignore papers on C++ dating from before Standardisation
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach I do need time to read. I'm not a robot. (I have kids, after all.)
 
it's not unreasonable that one should ask for a reference dating from within this generation
oh, @sbi, do you also think that I should study memory segmentation in my university course?
I became rather depressed when my lecturer started telling me that modern CPUs use segmentation, and that page-based virtual memory systems don't offer memory protection
 
@DeadMG Some modern CPUs do use segmentation, in particular the one in your PC. On the other hand, paging systems do offer memory protection.
 
pretty sure that x86-32 doesn't have segmentation
and I know that paging does offer memory protection- that's why I became depressed
 
@DeadMG sorry to disappoint, but your professor was right on that one. but it could be random. his/her name wasn't Schildt, by any chance?
 
8:33 PM
nope
 
theory down drain again :(
 
should this question be migrated to codereview? stackoverflow.com/questions/4855219/…
 
yes
I think that I would have said that it was a fine question previously, but with codereview now up, it may was well go here
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach Some are valid, some are outright wrong. ("More subtle difficulties may arise from the fact that the order in which the destructors for automatic variables of a block will be called is undefined." Hey, the deterministic order of destruction is one of the corner-stones of C++.)
 
8:44 PM
biggest reason I can never use another language
deterministic destruction
 
not to be a hater, but i dont see why this answer deserves 75 upvotes: stackoverflow.com/questions/4843640/why-is-a-a-in-c/…
 
sbi
@FredO Hell, that damn thing is too ancient to be relevant today. It talks about assigning to this for what later could be achieved by overloading new. Sorry, I'm not going to finish reading that.
 
@John: I gotta agree
 
@sbi: I wonder if perhaps you can access Russian YouTube? Worth a try...
 
@sbi Yes, you should definitely read the "revisited" paper instead, but I cannot seem to be able to find it... :-(
 
sbi
8:48 PM
@JohnDibling It was the first and it was correct. Sometimes that helps.
Oh, read the comment of one Felix to the question: "How can a question like this get upvoted so often? It's really not that interesting ... I mean, that strings are arrays and arrays are pointers is really an old hat in C, isn't it?"
Let's all upvote GMan, so that this doesn't stand out so unchallanged... :)
 
@sbi: I get that. But it's not a paradigm-changing post. I mean for crap's sake, I could have learned that from an elementary book or even (shudder) school!
@sbi: that last was for you :)
 
I'm calling this function frequently like this, Board b = otherBoard->getCopyAndMakeMove(). Is there a more efficient way to do this? The way I'm doing it now is calling the copy constructor twice right?
Sorry, here is the code in question: gist.github.com/804782
 
sbi
@JohnDibling You mean you were shuddering especially for me? Should I feel honored now? I mean, why did I pick a neutral (well, somewhat) avatar instead of using a photo when you still shudder for me?
 
@sbi: lol. no i meant the dig against professors
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach Well, it appears I can, but I'm definitely not a fan of MMEB.
@JohnDibling Oh, now I'm relieved. I've never been a professor.
 
8:54 PM
@sbi oh, i sort of grew up with them. in a way. i don't know where i got that music from when I was a kid, I certainly didn't buy it, and no internet at that time
 
sbi
@jluebbert That depends. And, no, I'm not going to download your code just to have a closer look for you. If you want an answer, setup a real question.
 
(Just about that institute in Chicago :-) )
 
@sbi It's a gist.. but alright.
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach Science, huh? Well, I got something to toss into this discussion: youtube.com/watch?v=b240PGCMwV0. :)
 
@sbi Is this better then? codepad.org/SHBAwSa9
 
8:59 PM
man, got to finish my internship application to Microsoft
they want to know all about my teamwork previous experience
 
yo yo
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach And if you really want to spoil this fine evening in the chat, just keep teasing me about music until I dump a representative cross section of what music I like...
 
is what I am listening to right now
 
@sbi I like that one. Also the story where Feynman did some kitchen-thing experiment to figure out failure of space shuttle (nobody else could figure it out)
 
sbi
@DeadMG When I set the loudness to mute and let it run in a background tab, that video isn't all that bad, you know...
 
9:04 PM
lol
 
@DeadMG Sounds like Garbage. LOL. :-)
 
@AlfPSteinbach Not really kitchen sink. He was at a congressional hearing about the problems, and they passed around some pieces of O-ring. He dipped it in his glass of ice-water for a few minutes, broke it, and commented that this seemed like it could pose a problem in sub-freezing temperatures.
 
hmm
revising my 2D Graphics module
the lecturer is demonstrating Bresenham's Algorithm for drawing 2D lines
 
sbi
Oh dammit! "This video contains content from UMG. It is not available in your country." How I hate that! I used to like to watch that video.
 
he has one picture and three lines of text
then in formal language, it takes an entire page
 
9:09 PM
@DeadMG What language?
 
uh
formal language
that is, as a bunch of mathematical equations
 
@AlfPSteinbach Do you mean "Garbage" the band or "Garbage" the waste?
Garbage are a Scottish/American alternative rock band formed in Madison, Wisconsin, in 1994. The band consists of Scottish vocalist Shirley Manson and American musicians Duke Erikson, Steve Marker and Butch Vig, and has counted worldwide album sales of over 17 million units. Garbage released a string of increasingly successful singles in 1995–1996, including "Stupid Girl". Their debut album, Garbage, was an unexpected smash, selling over 4 million copies and certified double platinum in the UK, USA and Australia. Garbage won the Breakthrough Artist award at the 1996 MTV Europe Music Award...
 
No name for it? We studied all kinds of these stuff. There's LOTOS, Zed, etc. If I'm not mistaken
 
@FredOverflow The band. although it was a bit of wordplay. :-)
 
Maybe I'm confusing it with specifications.
 
9:10 PM
@AlfPSteinbach oh prog
 
as far as I know, it's just called "formal language"
 
(I think that is German band)
 
where, given that the reader already knows that any 2D straight line can be expressed y = mx + c, it would take me five lines of C++ to write this algorithm
 
@DeadMG What are m and c when the line goes straight up? ;)
 
9:13 PM
m=\infty :P
 
can't recall, offhand
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach Wow, that's a really strange mix of 70ies and 90ies! Interesting, though.
 
but it doesn't matter too much, since the line is drawn on the screen and has a known finite length
 
Of course you could just make the line a function of y and say x(y) = 0.
 
@sbi Try Porcupine Tree :-)
 
9:14 PM
y = mx + c, x = (y - c)/ m, for that equation to yield the same x for any y then M is inf
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach Actually I have a CD from them. A friend gave it to me for a birthday a few years ago. I tried to listen to it several times, but utterly failed to grow fond of them. :(
 
@AlfPSteinbach The snare drum sound is terrible. I hope that's just the youtube audio compression at work?
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach Really, they sound like a Yes/ELO/Nirvana unification.
 
what I don't understand then is, why the algorithm is only supposed to work when the angle is in a certain range
as I'd expect for it to work for any line, where m is not inf
 
@sbi Nirvana? Where?
 
sbi
9:16 PM
@DeadMG Will you please stop speaking computer babble here?! What do you think this is, a geek forum?!
 
heh
 
sbi
@FredOverflow In some of the guitars? Well, or take any of the somewhat harder bands of the 90ies.
 
Nirvana never clicked for me.
 
sbi
Ha, on the right bar it says "There are other rooms, with 25 users currently talking in 8 rooms.". We have 10 talking here...
 
The only song I hear "regularly" is Dive.
 
9:18 PM
more importantly
we all have gravatars
 
sbi
@FredOverflow I somewhat skipped them when they were hip (to the extent this was possible), but there's some good stuff by them.
 
@DeadMG Great, I'm talking with an ape and a puppy...
2
 
aww... but I has puppdog eyes!
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Here's version of a Nirvana song I like: youtube.com/watch?v=safotc63Yqk
 
@sbi: Oh wait, now the guitars got harder.
 
sbi
9:20 PM
@FredOverflow At least you didn't say "monkey"! I would have fetched the librarian.
@sbi Well I mean it's one version I like a lot (not it'#s the one song I like).
 
@sbi I prefer guitars without voice.
 
found radio-friendly porcupine tree track
 
sbi
I SAID, DON'T TEMPT ME!!
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Then you might like Andy McKee: youtube.com/watch?v=Ddn4MGaS3N4
 
9:23 PM
@sbi love him
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Yeah, I just saw he's the first related link on that page... :)
 
@AlfPSteinbach One is good. Three together are fantastic...
 
This one is pretty funny:
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin Is that from Friday Night?
Yeah, it is.
 
@sbi It's on Friday Night, but I think this is a different performance of it.
 
sbi
9:25 PM
You know, I have once seen Al Di Meola in a very small club (@Konrad might know the old Franz club @Schönhauser Allee), with probably just 50 people, some of us practically sitting at his feed.
@JerryCoffin Ah, Ok. Friday Night in SF is all I have from them, and that song is on there. But I haven't heard that in ages. I not that fond of guitar-only music. :)
@AlfPSteinbach Sorry, don't click.
 
@sbi The lat time I saw them was in Denver -- close enough I could almost have reached out and touched his shoulder. FWIW, I personally prefer Passion, Grace and Fire to Friday Night in SF.
 
This guy is cracking me up:
 
I used to listen to Al DiMeola when I did military service. "Electric Randezvous" and so on. But right now "The Adobe plugin has crashed. Please send a crash report"
 
sbi
@FredOverflow It's the same as with that video the @DeadPuppie posted: with the sound set to mute and the video running in the background it's quite Ok.
 
@sbi Listen to the second video. Plain piano sound.
 
9:30 PM
@FredOverflow Revenge of the Nerds, part 9... :-)
 
@JerryCoffin ...it's an act, right?
 
sbi
@FredOverflow I actually like that, although you have to really try to not look at the guy in exasperation in order to have a chance to appreciate the musics...
 
@FredOverflow Well, apparently anyway. For synth, I still think I prefer Karn Evil 9, though...
 
sbi
@FredOverflow You mean he strips??? Oh man, good I didn't watch it all the way to the end...
 
@sbi I'm pretty sure he's just pretending to be retarded. Must be some weird "image" thing.
@sbi Not that kind of act, LOL :)
 
sbi
9:33 PM
@FredOverflow Yeah, maybe, but for a pretender he is pretty good, actually.
 
@sbi Hm, I was just about to post "Pretender", but I seem to remember somebody already did that not too long ago...
I like this comment about the fast song:
> WUT. brb chopping off my hands they are useless
 
sbi
Ok, now I can't hold back any longer. Here is a small (and in no way representative) sample of what a strange mixture I like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=safotc63Yqk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpFgkiAPwgE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfAS6nwYc9g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddn4MGaS3N4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQtLoJlQD6E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWFb5z3kUSQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwX7uEiEWx4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmzN1p5q2sY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV4t1rZEYnA
@FredOverflow Yeah, I laughed about that one, too.
Oh, sorry for posting that first one again.
 
"Drifting" is awesome.
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Oh yeah, we had that before, too. Sorry.
 
@FredOverflow nice
@sbi you know dave grohl went on to Foo Fighters, and now Them Birdies (I forget the name, Vultures?)
 
9:41 PM
@AlfPSteinbach Foo Fighter's second album was outstanding. The rest, meh...
 
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach Dave Grohl?
 
@sbi Nirvana's drummer
 
@templatetypedef: Get a gravatar! :)
 
@DeadMG Maybe he really looks like that?
 
i like simple music, performed technically brilliant and with feeling
 
9:43 PM
OMG Ronald's CD cover has left me speechless :-)
 
like satch
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Ah, I see. Well, I'm too old to remember all of them. I do remember John Cale, though, remember why (and remember that he isn't JJ). And I'm a sucker for some of Nick Cave's stuff, and know some background on the Bad Seeds.
 
(THe above is the vidoe where Joe tries to eat the guitar)
 
sbi
Speaking of which, here's one where I'd like to ask the non-German speakers what Blixa Bargeld (of the bad Seeds and Einstürzende Neubauten) is reciting: youtube.com/watch?v=0kdLmXRmEec. Please make your bet before the video ends. A hint: it's an ad.
 
@AlfPSteinbach i can't play that video in germany
 
sbi
9:45 PM
Yeah. "This video contains content from Sony Music Entertainment. It is not available in your country."
Did I mention I hate that?
 
@sbi is that supposed to be funny or art?
 
perhaps it's also on RuTube? Joe Satriani "Made of Tears" live 2006
 
@sbi: At what point does he speak English? the vid is six minutes
 
sbi
@FredOverflow I think the guy is great.
@DeadMG You can stop whenever you want. :)
He reads from a hardware shop catalog.
 
@sbi: I'm a non-German speaker and completely don't understand the question, or the source material
 
9:48 PM
@sbi But not computer hardware ;)
 
sbi
@DeadMG That's the point. That guy can read from a hardware shop's catalog like he recites from the bible.
 
@AlfPSteinbach This somehow makes me ponder about who was the best guitar trio I've seen: the previous one (Mcglaughlin, DeLucia, and DiMeola), or Satriani, Steve Vai and Eric Johnson. Fortunately, they're enough different from each other I can appreciate both without trying to make a decision...
 
yeah
so what's new?
 
sbi
@DeadMG We've been chatting about music pretty much for an hour now.. I think that's a primer. What more news do you want?
 
I don't understand the point that you're trying to make
 
sbi
9:52 PM
@DeadMG Probably because it isn't a sequence point? <scnr/>
 
@DeadMG new is an operator for creating objects on the heap.
2
 
@FredOverflow You owe each participant a quarter for mentioning something about C++ here... :-) It's the one topic that's not allowed.
 
so does sbi
 
@JerryCoffin Erm... I was talking about Java, you know ;-)
 
@FredOverflow Oh, in that case you owe us all a lot more. And some people think dead kittens are in bad taste!
 
sbi
9:57 PM
@DeadMG I'm The Grumpy Old Ape^WMan. I'm allowed anything without having to pay.
 
Java is a boring language. i++ + ++i is well-defined, I mean how lame is that?
3
 
lol
 
sbi
Speaking of music and old men, @FredO, did you see Schultze Gets the Blues?
(I hate Morkdown!)
 

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