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Dec 17, 2022 08:56
@roganjosh Ha! I hadn't been Winterbashing and it took me a while to twig what you meant but once I did that got a real-life chuckle out of me
Dec 5, 2019 13:48
@roganjosh As an ethical point, scrapers should certainly try to avoid DOSing the site they're scraping. But do you really think you wiped out a site with a single pass over its pages with a scraper? That seems unlikely.
Dec 5, 2019 13:46
Well, we may or may not be! Many private businesses have websites that host what is legally public domain content or content owned by users, and then try to prevent scraping it
Dec 5, 2019 13:44
If a local business decides to fence off a public road to use it for a private event, then in a sense I'm bypassing a security measure if I climb over the fence. But I have every damn right to do it.
Dec 5, 2019 13:43
@AndrasDeak Questionable, but not clearly wrong. There will often be a defensible legal and/or moral case that the site doesn't have the right to try and prevent scraping in the first place, and that therefore bypassing the protections is justified
Dec 5, 2019 13:41
Therefore, IMO, we should not take any action against questions just because they are about web scraping, even if they're scraping a site whose TOS forbids it. It's sometimes legally grey, but is certainly not blatantly illegal nor immoral.
Dec 5, 2019 13:40
@αԋɱҽԃαмєяιcαη There's nothing wrong with scraping a website without asking for permission. It's what Google does, after all. Nor are terms of service forbidding such actions something we should necessarily respect; it'll depend somewhat on jurisdiction, but in the US LinkedIn recently lost a case in which not only did the judge deem their TOS banning scraping to be invalid, but forbade them from using technical means to block scrapers!
Dec 4, 2019 16:04
And at the very least, I can try to provide an answer to that question
Dec 4, 2019 16:04
I'm going to speculate for now that it's O(1) and go ahead and use it for my current purpose (where being fast is more a nice-to-have than a strict necessity), then swing back around and see if I can improve the module and/or its docs when I've got some free time. Would be fun to get my first contributions into CPython and it's starting to smell like there might be an opportunity to do so here. :)
Dec 4, 2019 15:58
lol. Backwards compatibility?
Dec 4, 2019 15:51
@AndrasDeak Good catch, looks like it
Dec 4, 2019 15:51
(Really, it should be guaranteed in the docs to be O(1), and any implementations out there that aren't should be fixed, because it just needlessly cripples the usefulness of the whole module if it isn't O(1). But that's just my opinion of what should be the case; I don't know what currently is.)
Dec 4, 2019 15:50
@Kevin and @JonClements Maybe! If so, noting the answer for CPython and also that it's not guaranteed in other implementations would probably be useful. As would any answers by anyone else who wants to provide implementation-specific answers, I guess - it's not like there are so many Python implementations that we can't cover them all.
Dec 4, 2019 15:48
Hey @AndrasDeak :)
Dec 4, 2019 15:48
Sorry @variable - it's deleted, so currently 10k+ only
Dec 4, 2019 15:46
stackoverflow.com/q/57903339/1709587 looks like a good question to me that sadly got downvoted and then Roombaed. It's asking something pretty fundamental about a standard library module, but is not a duplicate and is not answered in the official docs (despite being of vital importance to many potential users of the module!). Anyone here inclined to cast an undelete vote? (And perhaps to answer, if they know the answer - right now I'd like to know!)
 

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General chat & hangout for Stack Overflow, including Meta disc...
Dec 9, 2019 15:01
It's, like, prettily animated and everything
Dec 9, 2019 15:01
Amazing!
Dec 9, 2019 15:00
Aha! I just saw this: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/47960157#47960157. There's an "ignore" feature in Chat? Let's see how that works...
Dec 9, 2019 14:58
Maybe-unpopular opinion: the "New Posts" feed in this chatroom is a bad thing. It's annoyingly noisy, breaks up conversations, and makes it impossible to casually scroll and see what discussion has recently happened here. Whoever controls it should switch it off.
Nov 13, 2019 19:13
@CodyGray Hmm. Fair enough. I guess it could be useful to systematically expose questions to human review before they're publicly visible and thereby reduce the total amount of human labour spent weeding out bad questions, even if the judgements are still ultimately being made by meat and not silicon.
Nov 13, 2019 19:08
@CodyGray For whatever it's worth, I disagree. I don't think anything the company can produce on a reasonable timeline will be an adequate substitute for human review. I already get caught by the quality filter from time to time and have to make some meaningless change to placate it, despite being a user who - if votes can be trusted - has apparently never asked a bad question in his life. I'm not enthusiastic about more robo-filters; they'll inevitably make the nuisance worse.
Nov 13, 2019 18:46
@CodyGray "was not having the desired effect of increasing question quality" - I'd question whether this was the desired effect, and certainly question whether it was the most important possible positive effect. There are several other possible justifications, like making displayed rep better track total value of a user's contributions, or not thinking questions provide as strong a signal that a user can be trusted with privileges
Nov 13, 2019 18:41
@CodyGray I'm going to hazard a guess that the mods and non-Sara CMs didn't get any input into the blog post?
Nov 13, 2019 18:38
Huh
Nov 13, 2019 18:37
@KevinB Source?
Nov 13, 2019 18:36
I rather suspect that she knows precisely the impact those choices of phrasing will have on those she's hurt
Nov 13, 2019 18:34
@CindyMeister Other things that I find enraging: the cheerful 'hooray! let's celebrate' bullshit when we're in the midst of an ongoing crisis and Monica's life is being wrecked, and the claim that this is a place 'where everyone can thrive' after Sara has passed rules discriminating against various religious groups and trans people.
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Nov 13, 2019 18:28
I don't even object to the policy change in and of itself, but as usual, Sara has made what can only be a deliberate effort to make it as big a "fuck you" to the community as she can manage:
* Unilateral action without prior discussion
* Patronising suggestion that it's so "hard" for askers to be "on the other side of that keyboard"
* Declaration that the people who hadn't earned privileges before, but will have them now, are THE "question experts", meaning that the rest of us are not
* Zero mention of, let alone actual engagement with, the arguments for having things the old way
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Nov 13, 2019 18:21
 
Dec 6, 2019 20:47
In the same way, when they demand fealty to progressive beliefs as a condition of participation, that's "basic human decency"; when you refuse, that's "bringing politics into it".
Dec 6, 2019 20:46
There's a great quote from a Slate Star Codex post I remember that I think analogises quite well here:

> "In the hospital where I work, there’s a RESIST TRUMP poster on the bulletin board in our break room. I don’t know who put it there, but I know that anybody who demanded that it be taken down would be tarred as a troublemaker, and anyone who tried to put a SUPPORT TRUMP poster up next to it would be lectured about how politics are inappropriate at work. This is true even though I think at least a third of my colleagues are Trump supporters."
Dec 6, 2019 20:46
Though I suspect they don't see their actions in those terms
Dec 6, 2019 20:45
Indeed
Dec 6, 2019 20:41
The suspension does seem like bullshit to me, FWIW, @RobertHarvey. I'm not sure the post was useful or ever going to achieve anything in the current climate, but I don't see how it was "incendiary"; it was nothing but a blunt statement of an opposing view. It's in any case far less incendiary than the staff posts introducing the actual CoC!
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Dec 6, 2019 20:32
Huh. terdon's right - this is actually possible. Never knew that feature was a thing.
 
Oct 2, 2019 14:11
Now I truly must get on with work. I will leave your edit untouched, @Cerbrus.
Oct 2, 2019 14:09
And yes, I'm also grateful to Shog who is, as ever, a diplomat.
Oct 2, 2019 14:08
That may still get me in trouble here, but hopefully will avoid harming anyone and let me have a clean conscience.
Oct 2, 2019 14:08
For the record: I am not personally committing that I will not share anything further. I will commit, though, that I will only do so to the extent needed to shield Monica from outright untrue characterisations of what she has said. If I forward any transcripts, I'll redact them heavily, probably to the point of only keeping Monica's words, and certainly to the point that I'm not revealing any of the stuff Shog talks about in point 1.
Oct 2, 2019 14:03
It probably should've been clear to me, but I was angry, impatient, and assuming bad faith. I apologise as well, @user58.
Oct 2, 2019 14:01
(Having not had time to read the transcripts yet, I wasn't aware of any of the details mentioned in point 1, and didn't realise that the "outing" that I would be a "dickhead" for was anything more than revealing that Monica's words were not as asserted by others.)
Oct 2, 2019 13:59
Thanks, @Shog9. That does make sense and is a much better reason than any given thus far.
Oct 2, 2019 13:48
Anyway. Now I really must get back to work.
Oct 2, 2019 13:47
To me, it's that simple.
Oct 2, 2019 13:47
You want specific details that impact innocent parties redacted? I won't disclose them, and will redact them in the event that I choose to share the transcripts further. You want me to avoid sharing Monica's words if they prove that she's been misrepresented? No. Not gonna do that. Would rather get banned than be quietly complicit in libelling someone.
Oct 2, 2019 13:44
I just don't buy that "you can't tell people what really happened, because we'll look bad and people might 'hound' us, therefore you have to do nothing about us telling an account that didn't happen so that they hound an entirely innocent party instead" can possibly be the right moral reasoning here
Oct 2, 2019 13:43
The other side has been doing this plenty already, starting with Sara Chipps. Why is it worse if done by Monica's supporters for the sake of setting the record straight?
Oct 2, 2019 13:42
If it's false, it's worse than a leak