last day (29 days later) » 

13:21
Hi there.
Yo
So, why not mention the existence of the leaked transcripts?
Okay, If there's one thing that's sacred on SO, it's that the TL is confidential
You have no idea how absolutely furious moderators are that is was leaked.
What's your basis?
I'd never heard of TL until this crisis, honestly
Direct contact with George and some other moderators
TL's confidentiality is absolute
Ask George, you don't have to believe me
I think it's only decent if we try to keep it that way.
I'd think that the honesty of the mods should be absolute, too - but from what I've seen of the transcripts so far (haven't read them all in detail), Monica very clearly didn't refuse to comply with the new CoC
13:24
doesn't matter
Damage control.
I'm not okay with notionally maintaining confidentiality if all it means is allowing one side to lie about what was said without the other having the ability to demonstrate the lie
Both sides are being creative with the truth
If that was how things were going to go, then nothing should've been released at all. But once you start releasing untruths, I don't see what there is to do besides release the truth
Nothing was released.
I haven't seen any creativity with the truth from Monica's side yet
13:25
Look, I'm not here to debate right and wrong.
Or what's the truth
Anyway, thanks for the explanation. I'll leave the post as it is for now. Later I'll have a look over the transcripts and contemplate what I think is right to do.
Just... consider that every single mod in that transcript is chatting there with the promise of confidentiality
And not to threaten you, but SE won't look kindly upon users openly sharing those transcripts.
Surely that confidentiality was breached the moment that Monica was accused of anti-trans bigotry and refusal to comply with the CoC
No.
That has nothing to do with confidentiality
An interpretation of "confidentiality" under which spreading lies about what was said in secret is acceptable but spreading the truth is forbidden, seems problematic
13:28
Confidentiality means what happens in that room stays in that room.
We owe it to other moderators in that transcript to at least try not to break that conficentiality.
Whatever was said in that room was said under the confidence that it would not leave that room, because the #1 rule in the TL is that nothing leaves that room. I am uncomfortable with having what I shared in a private room shared publicly. I anonymized myself temporarily because of this. Please don't make it worse.
Again: I'm not okay with the double standard here. Specific accusations about Monica's conduct and statements have already been made against her, publicly, including by staff. Either they're true, in which case the other side is okay breaking this confidentiality, or they're false, which is worse. I will look at the transcripts and consider whether there's potential collateral damage to them being shared more widely, but I'm not going to assist in covering them up if the only purpose is [1/2]
in Room Owner’s Gathering Place, 1 min ago, by Magisch
@Cerbrus A massively important point: People spoke freely in that room, also about their experiences, under the pretense of absolute, unbroken for 10+ years confidentiality. The leaks have already driven people who stand to lose from outing or hounding into hiding, and will continue to do so. Proliferating, reading or reproducing them is therefore deeply immoral
[2/2] to hide that lies have been told about what was privately said, in order to assist a hit job on an innocent mod.
This is not an instance of something public being hidden. This is an instance of something private being leaked, breaking the moderator agreement and the trust of every moderator in there.
13:33
You'd be doing more damage.
I am telling you, as someone whose words are very much present in the leaked transcript, that it would be doing damage.
I note what you've said. I will consider it. Right now, I need to get back to work.
This is the sort of thing I'm talking about above: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/389991/…
If it's true, it's a leak
If it's false, it's worse than a leak
Oh ffs
She should know better.
The other side has been doing this plenty already, starting with Sara Chipps. Why is it worse if done by Monica's supporters for the sake of setting the record straight?
"They started it"? I'm not even going to answer that.
13:44
I just don't buy that "you can't tell people what really happened, because we'll look bad and people might 'hound' us, therefore you have to do nothing about us telling an account that didn't happen so that they hound an entirely innocent party instead" can possibly be the right moral reasoning here
It doesn't matter what the reasoning is. Sharing private stuff that people posted in confidence of it not being shared is being a dickhead no matter how you justify it, especially when they've explicitly asked you not to.
2
pls
4
(I wanna star my own message because "pls" is quite literally all I can say right now, but then again, I'm also laboring to type this, so idk)
Can you still star your own message by pinning and unpinning it? Yes you can.
You want specific details that impact innocent parties redacted? I won't disclose them, and will redact them in the event that I choose to share the transcripts further. You want me to avoid sharing Monica's words if they prove that she's been misrepresented? No. Not gonna do that. Would rather get banned than be quietly complicit in libelling someone.
To me, it's that simple.
Well it's been nice knowing you...
13:48
Anyway. Now I really must get back to work.
So, the problem with the leaked transcripts is twofold:
1. There are named people in it who were far more candid about their own beliefs / identity / position than they might've been if they'd been writing publicly. That opens them up to harm in ways they really don't deserve.
2. The transcripts chosen were... Selective. There were thousands and thousands of messages in that room over the course of just a couple days - anyone thinking what was chosen tells the whole story, or even a balanced summary... Has never given an interview to a newspaper and then read what was printed.
6
#1 is most concerning. We don't need folks attacked for stuff like this. That's already happening too much, but it could be so, so much worse.
Obviously... We can't put the genie back in the bottle here. But... We don't have to make it any worse than it already is.
3
(that last message has pretty much been my guiding principle for the past week)
Thanks for weiging in, @Shog9.
np. If any of that doesn't make sense let me know. gonna make some more tea now
Thanks, @Shog9. That does make sense and is a much better reason than any given thus far.
Point 2 is news to me too
14:01
(Having not had time to read the transcripts yet, I wasn't aware of any of the details mentioned in point 1, and didn't realise that the "outing" that I would be a "dickhead" for was anything more than revealing that Monica's words were not as asserted by others.)
Oh, I'm sorry if that wasn't clear
@MarkAmery I apologize for the insult. That was out of line. I'm rather on edge at the moment, especially about this.
It probably should've been clear to me, but I was angry, impatient, and assuming bad faith. I apologise as well, @user58.
... Would it be appropriate to all hug now?
2
These are very trying times and I am grateful Shog stepped in to help.
Thank you for your understanding on this.
14:08
For the record: I am not personally committing that I will not share anything further. I will commit, though, that I will only do so to the extent needed to shield Monica from outright untrue characterisations of what she has said. If I forward any transcripts, I'll redact them heavily, probably to the point of only keeping Monica's words, and certainly to the point that I'm not revealing any of the stuff Shog talks about in point 1.
That may still get me in trouble here, but hopefully will avoid harming anyone and let me have a clean conscience.
And not in a dismissive way, but in a “i Will remember that you did those moderators a kindness” way.
And yes, I'm also grateful to Shog who is, as ever, a diplomat.
Now I truly must get on with work. I will leave your edit untouched, @Cerbrus.
Thanks, Mark
 
1 hour later…
15:14
@Shog9 This MSE comment meta.stackexchange.com/questions/334107/… links to the leak. Escalating this since everyone is stretched thin, and flag response times in MSE have been understandably slow.
 
5 hours later…
20:01
Thank you, Mark, for taking the time to chat this out and for being receptive to those urging you reconsider the posting. Please know that dozens of mods from across the network were vocally concerned about the "leak"--I don't know how many more were and didn't speak up or hadn't yet been made aware of it.
I don't know if anyone's mentioned it to you, but the room description for the TL is "NEVER COPY ANYTHING OUT." A lot of us are far more frank and revealing about our own experiences and thoughts in there, as a way of trying to get to know and understand each other and moderation, than we
Anyway, thanks. Be well.

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