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4:00 PM
Anyway. Thanks guys!
 
Arch Linux: where your default /tmp is only 500MB. And the prime AUR tool uses /tmp as a build directory <facepalm>
 
so when is android 5.0 Fried Pony hitting the market?
 
user142019
@rubenvb When I used GHC in Arch Linux, it ran out of RAM and then it ran out of swap space.
 
user142019
I had a 10 GB swap partition.
 
4:02 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes composite percentages would be better (% of Gingerbread or later)
fuck this shit.
 
user142019
Shall I name Ø' throw statement gtfo.
 
let's try getting Arch on my laptop.
but eat first.
 
user142019
gtfo FileNotFoundError();
 
@melak47 In case you missed it, the names are alphabetical, so F was quite a while ago (and was "Frodo" if memory serves).
 
@rubenvb That's 94.5%.
<Gingerbread is an easily ignorable share of the market.
 
4:04 PM
@JerryCoffin "In case I missed it" ? I've not touched an android before today :p
 
Why are you touching it now
Don't it's toxic
 
it told me to
 
It's a trap
 
"touch the android to get started" or something.
 
A trap full of bad design
 
4:04 PM
=Gingerbread is over one third, and ICS+JB make up a little over half. If you are fine with only targetting half the market, ICS is ok.
 
user142019
@CatPlusPlus It's a crap FTFY
 
@rightfold The alternatives are Windows Phone and iOS. Android is merely the least awful of them (though Ubuntu for Android might be the real deal).
 
@JerryCoffin Froyo.
 
@melak47 So what you're saying is that you did miss it.
 
@JerryCoffin I'm saying how could I not miss it
 
4:07 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oops -- yeah, that was it.
@melak47 You don't have to touch an Android to have some awareness of it.
 
user142019
I don't think Windows Phone is too bad to develop for. Not that I've ever done it.
 
user142019
But at least you use a decent language.
 
@rightfold "I don't think it's bad. I have no idea what I'm talking about."?
 
user142019
It's a presumption.
 
@rightfold I don't think that's as important as you think it is.
(See also: Xamarin)
 
4:11 PM
@rightfold It's basically WindowsRT, where "RT" apparently stands for "Really Trash". They basically took everything even marginally worthwhile about Windows, threw it out, and what was left is now RT.
 
Xeo
You've been getting worse lately, @rightfold.
 
@JerryCoffin lol
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I only wish I was trying to be humorous.
Seriously, I've sometimes wondered whether part of the deal Steve Ballmer made with Neelie Kroes wasn't something like: "Okay, if you leave us alone long enough for me to cash out my options, I promise to run the company into the ground."
 
@JerryCoffin Isn't it not just "basically" Windows RT, but actually exactly that? I might be totally confused by their naming with this, but IIRC, Windows RT is the one that runs on ARM devices.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, they do use different names for them, but yes, at least as far as I know, they're essentially identical from a programming viewpoint.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes -- the confusion is so bad, even their own evangelists don't seem entirely sure about what's what.
 
@JerryCoffin I wonder if the sales guys know.
Go is another language that gets some things right but tries too much to be special and thoroughly fucks up other stuff.
Lack of exceptions, I am looking at you.
 
Xeo
In what ways do you consider Haskell to be fucked up (if at all)?
 
Records are messy (lenses should have been the thing).
The Num type class hierarchy is fucked up (it should be more based on rings and groups and shit).
I don't think I regularly complain about other stuff.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Years ago, I read a quote from one of the designers of OS/2 where he said something like: "A good design isn't one that gets a lot right. It's one that avoids getting anything terribly wrong." A lot of designers seem to have missed that. They think that getting a lot of things right makes up for getting other things horribly wrong -- but it rarely does, unless the horribly wrong things are so obscure they have essentially no effect on real use.
 
4:31 PM
@JerryCoffin Exactly!
 
user142019
@Xeo I know.
 
@ThePhD Ha, please refer to Jerry's message above.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Maybe I should learn proper math some day...
 
ThePhD is bad at minimal interfaces
 
user142019
I don't sleep enough, all I do is programming and I'm lonely and bored to death.
 
4:33 PM
Hm
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I seem to recall that you complained about my proposed Wide container interface that was very minimal.
 
@Xeo Abstract algebra is okay.
 
@Xeo Well, basically, if for example, you want (+) for a vector type (the geometric thing), you could think "hey, let's make Num Vector!". And then you have (*) there as well, and are you like "WTF? Ok, let's make that dot product, since cross product is not commutative" and then you get to signum and you go like "Hm, ok, this was a terrible idea, let's make (:+) instead or something".
 
Ell
talk to people, go out with people
 
@DeadMG Well, I am not an extremist :P
 
user142019
4:36 PM
@ScottW Go 1.1?
 
user142019
Its performance has been improved in several ways.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes So, basically, Num implies to much?
 
user142019
And the return analysis has been relaxed.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Uh. I assume (*) would do member-wise multiplication?
 
user142019
That's all I know about it. I should read the release notes.
 
Xeo
4:37 PM
@Rapptz There is no such multiplication for geometric vectors.
 
@Rapptz Does that have a geometric meaning?
 
Because if so then it already follows the computational rules that most other vector classes follow. No one really does (*) to expect cross or dot product.
 
Xeo
It doesn't make sense.
 
No, it's a computational extension to vectors
 
user142019
@ScottW "paralleller".
 
4:38 PM
There technically isn't division or anything either but it's extended and assumed to be true
 
Member-wise multiplication is not very useful
 
user142019
@ScottW Palalleloglam.
 
I think we talked about it earlier
Yeah, it isn't useful. But it's there.
 
Well, it shouldn't be
 
Xeo
What does it mean to multiply one vector and another (say, two velocities) memberwise?
 
user142019
4:39 PM
Matrices don't make sense at all to me since I never got them in high school.
 
Ell
@rightfold have you tried learning them again?
The basics are very simple
 
@Rapptz Well, ok. Still, the other functions are actually the bigger problem.
 
user142019
@Ell All I know is how to add and subtract them.
 
user142019
I don't even know how transposition works.
 
Or I could make the argument with matrices instead, where (*) is not commutative.
 
Ell
4:41 PM
I don't even know what transposition is.
Multiplying them isn't difficult
dividing is just multiplying by the inverse
 
Transposition is rotating it by 90 degrees
 
user142019
Clockwise or counter-clockwise?
 
Matrices are a bit more complex in the multiplication category.
 
Ell
@rightfold 90 is anti clockwise
-90 is clockwise
 
Well, almost
 
user142019
4:42 PM
a b c
d e f

transposed:

a d      d a
b e  or  e b  ?
c f      f c
 
Ell
oh wait. I think I misunderstand
 
And being commutative or not actually makes even more difference in world of curried functions and partial application.
 
user142019
Thanks.
 
Fuck matrices though
 
4:44 PM
Haskell actually has transpose..
Prelude Data.List> transpose [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]]
[[1,4,7],[2,5,8],[3,6,9]]
 
Ell
Ruby has transpose
 
@Xeo It could still exist, but it should be inheriting some of its operations from other, smaller, more general type classes.
 
o_O
I thought it was weird.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes I see
 
4:44 PM
I don't expect these things to be built in.
 
Define "built in"
 
Xeo
Haskell is MathTheProgrammingLanguage, so...
 
Ell
In the standard library
 
Why not?
 
Ell
Or at least, a function of array (or list for haskell, but idk)
 
4:45 PM
It's an useful list operation
Why wouldn't it be included?
 
user142019
> an useful
 
Ell
I wouldn't imagine it gets used much
 
The use case of transposing is quite minimal imo.
 
user142019
"an useful" sounds like "unuseful"
 
Ell
and if we're including any useful operation the std lib would be huge
 
4:46 PM
That's not an argument for not including 4-line function in a module with operations for lists
 
Does Haskell have problems? (Like C++ or JavaScript have problems.)
 
I know you're used to primitive languages with primitive standard libraries, but this is really not an issue
 
Well, I wasn't arguing for not including it.
My statement was "I thought it was weird"
 
Ell
Nor was I
 
@StackedCrooked Read above. I just listed the most common things I complain about.
 
4:47 PM
ahh, migrating to github is not that bad :) thankfully I didn't have a huge wiki or issue tracker
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus do you think a string class should have a starts_with function?
 
Yes
 
Xeo
Hm.. transpose looks like n-ary zipping on lists
 
@Ell transpose is a free function in Haskell.
 
How is that related?
 
Ell
4:48 PM
@CatPlusPlus I'm just wondering
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh right
 
It's not necessary as part of the string interface
 
Ell
But do you think it should be in there?
 
It's a common string operation
 
No
Only substring is needed as part of the core interface
 
Xeo
22 mins ago, by Xeo
In what ways do you consider Haskell to be fucked up (if at all)?
 
4:49 PM
And maybe even not that
 
Ell
interesting o.O
 
@Xeo And unfortunately some people see that as an unredeemable flaw :(
 
user142019
Yay FabLab.
 
@Xeo I must have picked up the vibe without reading the text.
 
But it's still unrelated to anything so I have no idea why are you even bringing it up
 
4:50 PM
@Xeo To be fair most programming languages have a very core math based in its concepts and how it started
 
Ell
@rightfold FapLab
@CatPlusPlus I was just wondering
 
@CatPlusPlus I think it's quite fundamental.
 
String functions are used in computer programming languages to manipulate a string or query information about a string (some do both). Most programming languages that have a string datatype will have some string functions although there may be other low-level ways within each language to handle strings directly. In object-oriented languages, string functions are often implemented as properties and methods of string objects. In functional and list-based languages a string is represented as a list (of character codes), therefore all list-manipulation procedures could be considered stri...
 
In C++ you could get away with begin() and end() instead and then get the user to move those iterators to the desired positions. But fuck iterators.
 
The most common ones are there
C++ doesn't have some of them too lol
 
Xeo
4:52 PM
3 mins ago, by Xeo
Hm.. transpose looks like n-ary zipping on lists
Any thoughts on this?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh come on, automatic compose( ... ) internally (that's also compatible with compose( ... ) that a user does manually) is not a bad things. D:
 
Oh hey useless use of Wikipedia
 
@Xeo Contribute to what? D:
 
It's not about which string operations are common, but which string operations are fundamental to the string
 
Xeo
@ThePhD Bigger interface -> bigger problems
 
4:53 PM
@Xeo But it's nearly identical!
 
Xeo
Whatever.
 
starts_with can be easily generalised to any container
 
Actually, that's something I should do some time: find a nice set of core string ops for ogonek::text. The current set is a tad ad-hoc and not really minimal, nor complete.
 
=[
 
@CatPlusPlus No. This doesn't fit WP:DUMB at all.
 
4:53 PM
Anyway, leaving.
 
:P
 
@Xeo But, I mean like. Come on, it's ultimately a non-issue in this case. D:
 
Kay, so my advisor says I have to pick a specialization... what's the easiest field in computer science?
 
Adios.
 
@Rapptz lol, starts with charAt, which I won't have.
 
4:54 PM
@Crowz sysadmin
 
@Crowz your mom
 
@Crowz Janitor
 
user142019
@Crowz cleaning computers.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes will you have subscript? it includes alternate syntaxes for the same thing
 
@Crowz Do whatever is fun for you.
 
4:55 PM
q_q nobody believes meee
@Rapptz Did you see my last list-comprehension?
 
nope
 
@Crowz Btw, I hope you're kidding.
 
Oh, that's right
I never saved it because Coliru was misbehaving.
 
user142019
Ø' string will have .words and .code_points and similar which are enumerables.
 
@StackedCrooked no, I want something realistic, so "3D animation" would be out of the question... or anything involving heavy math.
 
4:56 PM
Ø strings are non-existent though.
 
Xeo
@Ell Dealing with unicode doesn't necessarily lend itself to presenting single "characters"
 
@Crowz Computer science is a math field
 
Ell
@Xeo I guess you would have to specify graphemeAt or codePointsAt?
 
@CatPlusPlus isn't there programming which doesn't deal as much with math?
 
Ell
@Crowz systems programming
 
4:57 PM
That was my last list comprehension
 
@Ell what is that?
 
stupid GCC warnings ruin it =/
But, it's pretty clean
and it supports to / until syntax
The last thing to do is to optomize the ranges
 
Ell
@ThePhD idk :L
 
so that they're not just vector blobs.
 
@CatPlusPlus Could not agree more, many of my computer science teachers actually had some sort of math back ground before coming to CS
 
4:59 PM
That one is okay
 
Xeo
I wonder in what bizarre ways it'll explode for multiple ranges~
 

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