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7:00 PM
@JoeWatkins He had it implemented as protected $foo guard { some code here } or something like that.
 
I think attributes should be improved to the point that they're capable of supporting systems like dbc - or else they are pretty pointless from an extensions authors perspective, but I don't think it should be a core part of php ...
 
Hm, possible point of confusion. When you say core part of PHP, does that include bundled extensions? Viz, if a bundled extension did something like that, would that be OK with you since it's outside of the engine proper?
 
But attributes already are a core part of PHP? This has just exposed that there's a chunk of improvements to be made.
 
a bundled extension could totally do that ... however, before we bundle an extension it has to prove it has a userbase ... despite the fact that we keep bundling extensions that have no userbase, and in the case of fibers, no perspective userbase (apart from 10 people) ...
 
Sadly, non-bundled extensions have a potential user base that's about 1/10000 the size of a bundled extension.
 
7:02 PM
that doesn't matter
 
Like, no ORM is going to say "you can't use this ORM without this rando extension we also wrote", not if it wants anyone to use it at all.
 
React has something 2.3 million downloads on packagist, ampphp has 9.4 million. Even considering spam from ci/cd, that's probably more than 10
 
It creates a chicken and egg problem that makes it difficult to impossible for many classes of extension to "prove themselves."
 
bundling everything that someone bothers to write because otherwise nobody will use it, doesn't make sense
unsustainable ... I can write like a hundred of these fuckers in a week ...
 
@JoeWatkins Sure, but that's also a hyperbolic argument. "Should this be bundled?" is something that can/should be considered case by case, because blanket "everything or nothing" positions are not useful.
 
7:04 PM
I'm not saying it has to have a userbase of a million, or all of china ... (like swoole) ... but a userbase it must have, a real need for it there must be ...
 
@MarkR both don't require any extension to work, you can install ev and others to improve performance, but they work out of the box
 
we have to maintain it, and we have to assume whoever it abandoning the source in php-src isn't going to come and improve or maintain it ... like fpm ...
 
That's partly why for the past couple of years there's seemingly been hushed murmers about long-term stripping of extensions out of php-src and bundling them as pure PHP via JIT, or FFI. php-src becomes the engine and not a lot more.
 
nobody who maintains extensions is thinking of doing that
 
@MarkR Anything swoole ever did was "you can't use this whatever without this rando extension we also wrote" ;-)
 
7:06 PM
because it would be crazy, ffi is not the solution you think it is ... it does not and never will replace extensions ...
 
What is FFI if not a mechanism to access external libraries?
 
I have to get to lunch, but this is an important discussion to have that is also closely related to the "what are attributes even for?" discussion. And admittedly not even slightly a new one.
 
@MarkR pretty pointless
not but in all seriousness, most extensions that we care about either instrument the engine, which is totally unreasonable from ffi, even if technically possible it makes no sense at all, or they wrap some third party c/c++ library
the problem with c/c++ libraries is that they often contain global state, which php hides for you, because it can manage global state, you can't in php ...
there's probably quite a lot of ext/standard code that could be implemented in pure php and be jit'd and we'd see no real difference - or benefit ... but generally extensions are here to stay, it's pipe dreams to talk about FFI replacing that ...
 
Isn't the latter, wrapping a third party library, the main requirement of removing a lot of the non-engine extensions in php-src?
 
reword that
 
7:13 PM
For an extension such as mysqli, pdo, gd, gmp, libxml, are those not mainly just wrappers around external libraries that exist in php-src for... some reason? Is that not the natural usage of FFI to provide a way to wrap those libraries in userland PHP code.
 
@JoeWatkins the only difference i see is easier maintenance, and more people willing to contribute to fix bugs, or add features ( since the community has more people that can write PHP than C )
 
> the problem with c/c++ libraries is that they often contain global state, which php hides for you, because it can manage global state, you can't in php ...
@MarkR in some narrow cases, you might be able to implement a pure FFI wrapper, but it would be fucking awful, the calling convention is terrible and slow, and hungry ...
I mean these are facts you can read or measure if you can't read ... it's just not a candidate for this, and it won't be, this is not because the implementation is immature, it's just a fact about foreign function interfaces, they are costly ...
 
Hm, interesting. Thank you for the more thorough answer. Much more informative than FFI being pretty pointless ;D
 
you probably think "oh but it must have a reasonable use case" ... well I'm exactly the sort of person it's aimed at, someone who writes a lot of extension code, and I'd never use it, not even to prototype something because it would be a waste of my time ...
 
Is there a particular reason that PHP bundles 50 extensions in the first place, as opposed to PECL?
 
7:21 PM
well there are a lot of extensions on pecl, and everybody uses them, despite what certain bloggers says, the numbers keep going up by millions, and it hasn't slowed down since composer or anything of the things you might have read ... pecl is very well used, and lots of people get extensions direct from github too ...
the number of extensions in ext is somewhat misleading ... for example, we link libxml, for obvious reasons ... for practical reasons if we didn't expose all of the apis that libxml allows you wouldn't be able to load another libxml.dll/so and so you wouldn't be able to have those apis ... that's like 5 extensions ... then there's pdo, which is organized into lots of extensions but is really one "thing" ...
there's still a few in there I can't explain really, I dunno that anyone uses pspell, but then it doesn't really cost much to keep that sort of thing ... and legacy ...
 
The pecl infra is aging, and pecl itself is the conjoined twin of pear, which is deprecated. This puts pecl in a dangerous situation.
 
there was talk of shiny things but they never materialized ...
 
IMO we should work towards using CMake as a singular build system across all platforms, and include in that design an extension mechanism for the new build system.
 
I've had cmake 99% of the way there ... and it's fun, cmake is nice and clean ... but by the time you've twisted it and bent it into shape to do what we need ... I dunno that it's much different to what we have now, it's swapping out one set of poorly understood magic for another set of probably even more poorly understood (but better documented and more modern) magic ...
95%
75% .. it worked, and so did extensions ... I just sorta gave up because one magic for another ...
there's been a pretty good ext build on windows for quite a few years now, but people still download the prebuilts, I dunno that a better build system really fixes anything in general because most peoples builds are built by ondrej or remi or whoever is running the windows magic this month ...
 
Can someone help me with Laravel Policy? I don't know why it's not being called
 
7:35 PM
I'd be shocked if more than 1% of people used the build system at all. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the combination of distro defaults, remi's repo, ondrej and the windows binaries outpaced building from source 250 to 1
 
there's never really going to be a "quick build system" on windows, it takes 3 hours to download the compiler ... I'll bet most give up before it finishes ...
 
@PHPisMyPassion please check Laravel discord or open an issue on GitHub
 
can I post code here or is it forbidden?
 
i doubt anyone is gonna help you with Laravel here, join their discord server instead.
 
people say they don't load extensions like it's a badge of honor, what I hear is they are amateurs that probably don't know how a debugger works ... I don't think there's anything wrong with the build system, it's attitudes that are wonky ...
 
7:38 PM
@JoeWatkins 3 hours? You were lucky :P
 
@JoeWatkins I never knew this! I would have helped polish it up and push it. I knew you did some CMake stuff with an extension, but that was it.
 
Or they just don't have a clue how it works. The vast, vast majority of PHP developers have never touched a C toolchain.
 
@JoeWatkins My personal concern is debugging is a pain if something goes wrong and having to cross your fingers for support after php upgrades
 
@LeviMorrison it took a lot of effort and I'm probably 3 disks later at this point, it's all gone and I remember very little ... but maybe in the long summer days, maybe for 9 or 10 ... it's a win in terms of coolness, and a sort of purity/uniformity ... but it won't make much difference to anyone who doesn't frequent this room or irc ...
a bigger win is move extension installer into php-cli
let's do that
it could never go the way of pear if it's right there in cli ... and how hard can it be, it's just a download for windows, a few commands everywhere else ...
it doesn't need a network of websites and it's own xml format
 
The semi-official docker images have a nice helper shipped that simplifies installing extensions
 
7:45 PM
there's no semi official docker images, and wish people would stop claiming there is and using the word php in their docker images ...
I'm not going to debug your whole job, I don't want bug reports with php-docker-coolness in them ...
 
... debug my whole job? what?
 
yeah I've had bug reports that pull in 20 repos, I've had emails with docker images that pull in private repos ... because it says "php" in the name of the image, so I must (as ext author) support that ...
 
I think that's just entitlement issues and nothing at all to do with docker.
 
I dunno but whatever, people claiming they're official when they're not is dumb, if nothing else it makes it difficult for us to actually provide docker images, which has been discussed briefly ...
 
@MarkR s/semi-official/dockerhub/g
 
7:53 PM
Well yeah, docker hub is the official repo for docker's default images, they have their official builds of PHP just like ubuntu has their official builds of PHP. They explain more at github.com/docker-library/…
 
To avoid confusion, avoid "official" and just say "dockerhub".
 
I'd love to see internals come up with a way of automatically spitting out images. It can be a pain to wait for several days for the docker hub ones to get the latest versions.
 
I believe the correct solution is for someone to be sponsored to do it.
Where "it" can mean actually making releases, or building out the pipeline and signing them and everything.
 
docker would likely hand over control of the php images to internals on request according to github.com/docker-library/official-images#maintainership . If RMs would be willing to have it hosted in that official library vs something entirely separate is an open Q i'd think
 
 
1 hour later…
cmb
9:20 PM
@JoeWatkins the real problem of Windows builds are the dependency libraries; these already get updated rarely, and this won't get better
just check mtimes on windows.php.net/downloads/pecl/deps; you're lucky if it isn't > 5yrs ago
core deps are better, but still bad
 
@MarkR this is an organisation and trust issue probably.....it's not exactly easy for people to submit packages to pecl.
 
@Danack Are you referring to the ones that are in ext/ ?
 
and that's probably also true for the windows builds. I've never found (though tbh not looked that hard) at how I can take ownerships of the windows builds of Imagick.
 
cmb
@Danack PECL builds are automated on a community (not MSFT controlled) machine
ImageMagick builds are not automated; actually, I wouldn't know how to build it
 
@cmb I mean like if I wanted to change some config of how/when they are built or upgrade the ImageMagick version used.
to be clear, quite happy with current situation....or at least don't want access....
 
cmb
9:27 PM
they are built as soon as machine is free (automated)
upgrading ImageMagick needs to be done manually
I think Anatol, Alex (who sponsors the machine) and me have access.
the pain point is ImageMagick (and other libs); there are no documents how the old libs have been build (or maybe just downloaded from somewhere)
for core deps there is at least github.com/winlibs (but upgrading some libs is a PITA)
we would need to switch to some suitable package manager (maybe vcpkg or conan)
 
@MarkR both? PECL just has really stalled as an ecosytem.
@edorian "Please stop pretending PHP is a good language" is it any better now?
 
cmb
:52081471: can ping me if a new build should be done; just need a pecl package for that
 
9:47 PM
I hate nullable methods.
 
Okay, I'm just going to mute the threads on sealed types, wow. I asked them to stop beating a dead horse... and they just carry on
 
How long have you been on the internals list?
 
i muted it an hour ago :D
i got a much better feedback from here than from the 50 replies there.
 
cmb
@LeviMorrison I was somewhat buffled to see replies your mail (didn't read them), because I had expected silence, or maybe "sorry, you're right; I already said the same several times"
 
@LeviMorrison final is like a religion it seems. Either you're a believer or you think people are delusional. I stopped reading some time ago.
 
10:04 PM
I also stopped reading it a long time ago -- I figured it was in the interest of public good to try to allow for other conversations.
 
We need to put together a web page with the standard arguments for/against any language feature, number them, and then just let people post links to a given argument.
"I'm going to argue #14".

"You're making a point #7, and that's well-understood to be irrelevant."
 
Anyone have an opinion or suggestions on my attempt to improve fiber backtraces?
@Crell Then combine this with a bot that auto-replies: It looks like you're arguing against #6 and #15. Please read and understand these well-established practices before further annoying people with your ranting.
 
I expect we'll have threads that just consist of stock argument references one after another.
Argument 4!
Come on, Argument 17.
No, but what about Argument 7?
I cite Argument 10.
(And then we can re-enact that joke about the bar and the guy who can't tell a joke.)
 
10:21 PM
@SaifEddinGmati one of the best pieces of advice I've received is to force all mail that goes to the internals to completely bypass my inbox and go into its own folder (or in gmail's case, label)
 
@Tiffany yea, I'm already doing that
 
It's almost as if people have forgotten how to use mail filters. Every single mailing list I'm on gets its own folder. I have many dozens. (OK, except for the political spam lists I end up on every week.)
 
In gmail, I have it set to archive internals mail immediately, bypassing inbox, and apply a PHP Internals label
 
cmb
NNTP
 
@Crell IIRC, gmail doesn't do this well
 
10:23 PM
@Tiffany One of the many reasons I don't use Gmail as a primary mail account.
 
@SaifEddinGmati btw, please feel free to steal any of the examples I use on the mailing list for the RFC if you think they'd help strengthen it.
 
azjezz@void.tn is only used for internals so far lol
@Crell I'm planning on rewriting it this weekend, will let you know/
 
/me goes back to trying to figure out what new-style reflection syntax is, since the docs don't say at all.
 
reflection docs seem outdated, e.g attributes are not mentioned ..
 
10:26 PM
If a parameter reflection is a ReflectionNamedType, what's the easiest way to figure out if that type is a class?
 
!$type->isBuiltin() ?
 
There's a whole bunch of stuff marked deprecated with no indication of what to use instead.
 
not sure if isBuiltin() returns true for builtin classes...
 
I would expect it to.
 
so yea, isBuiltin() is basically isNotAnObject()
 
10:29 PM
According to the docs:
"Note that the ReflectionNamedType::isBuiltin() method does not distinguish between internal and custom classes. To make this distinction, the ReflectionClass::isInternal() method should be used on the returned class name. "
 
::getType and ::getReturnType() return value should be ReflectionNamedType|ReflectionUnionType as of PHP 8.0, not sure why it's still ReflectionType ...
 
3v4l.org/nvR4U - And yet... Are the docs wrong?
Because no one has updated those pages yet. :-)
 
Looks like they could all get updated to use actual return types now.
 
10:33 PM
For the stubs, who cares?
 
i believe these stubs are used to generate the definition, no?
 
For the docs, in which case... this is a good thing?
 
no, i mean ext/reflection/php_reflection_arginfo.h
IIRC, that's generated from the PHP stubs.
 
I'm still not sure what the issue is...
 
class Bar extends ReflectionFunction {
public function getReturnType() { ... } // error: must be compatible with ReflectionFunction::getReturnType(): ReflectionNamedType|ReflectionUnionType
}
this is the problem externals.io/message/114092 is trying to fix.
 
10:38 PM
Sigh. PHP.
 
i wanted to buy 2 new monitors, every time i place an order, they call me back to say it's either out of stock, or they only have 1 left ... ( happened 3 times ), even tho their website says it's in stock!
 
Interesting, I was just browsing through the RFCs and noticed that wiki.php.net/rfc/internal_method_return_types introduces compile-time behaviour changes based on attributes.
 
cmb
Sigh. PHP. ;)
 
@SaifEddinGmati By a single 49" super ultrawide. Problem solved.
 
i want two to put one on each side of my laptop .. horizontally
 
10:44 PM
Going for an IMAX experience?
 
found asus.com/us/Displays-Desktops/Monitors/All-series/VG275Q, which they say is in stock ... will have to see tomorrow
@Crell no idea what that is :D
 
1080p on a 27" monitor is rubbish
 
IMAX: 50 foot wraparound screen used for really high end science movies and stuff. It's basically a half-sphere projector screen.
 
11:01 PM
@Crell oh ..
@MarkR i currently have a 42" TV which i use a second monitor ...
 
is it 4k?
 
... 1080p?
 
>.>
 
11:05 PM
so 1080p on a 27" screen is an upgrade actually :D
 
>.>
 
If you have decent eyesight, you want to be looking at 1440p on a 27" display
 
or bad eyesight + good glasses
(<-)
 
You'll be causing your eyes no end of grief with 1080p on a 42" screen at close proximity
 
@MarkR 4 years using the same 42" screen lol
 
11:07 PM
try out a 1440p monitor
invest :)
 
my laptop screen is 1440p
 
I eat my words
 
that's my main screen for gaming, the other two are gonna be for coding/browsing, so it doesn't really bring any difference to me
 
You'll find it does, especially in portrait mode. 300 pixels turns out to bed a lot of space
 
Ugh, the 1440p ones are all curved, and ordering online here is like gambling, because there's a high chance it will be "lost" at border/post office ( a.k.a: someone stole it but we won't take the blame )
 
11:16 PM
don't look for gaming monitors, dell's 27" ultrasharps are great
 
that's the one i ordered today ( but FHD version ), but they called me to say it's out of stock T__T
 
it took me longer than I'm willing to admit to realize that that's not actually 679 thousand TND
 
679 thousand TND is about 247 thousand USD and I had a O_O reaction
 
i'm not that rich
 
11:30 PM
it is many multiples of my annual salary XD
 
same...
 
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