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12:05 AM
@bad_coder well I'm embarrassed that I don't get the joke! but why were you embarrassed about the "Moon over Gaffney"?
 
@Nick it was the "banana in the pocket"..!
 
@bad_coder ah...
 
I could say something now.. but.. I think @bad_coder is too sensitive :)
 
12:23 AM
@CodyGray Yeah, just the accounts
 
@Scratte yes I am very sensitive, so please don't say whatever that is.
 
 
2 hours later…
2:56 AM
I believe this was a bad migration. stackoverflow.com/q/65599576/2943403 The code works, it is not requesting any behavioral changes. I find it to be on-topic at CodeReview. Can someone explain this migration?
 
@mickmackusa The migration happened on Code Review, not here. I'm not sure what you're wanting us to explain. We don't moderate Code Review.
 
3:08 AM
 
@mickmackusa What's wrong with asking if there's a different way to do the same thing?
I don't think Stack Overflow is only for broken code.
 
3:26 AM
@Nick You broke it :) You're going to have to do something to get 111,111..
 
@Scratte yeah :( then I will need to take your advice on how to stay there... :)
 
I think you should just go there, take a screen shot and aim for 1,111,111 :)
Think of all the nice numbers you can get to on the way. 123,456 314,159 424,242 :)
 
@Scratte life is too short... that would take (at my present rate) about 30 years...
...unless I start a new tag where it was "all upvotes, all the time"
 
3:42 AM
@Nick No one says you have to reach the goal though. And 123,456 is not bad :)
 
@Scratte it's not as cool as 111,111 though...
 
True :) 111,111 is really awesome :) I was sad to leave 1,111.
 
@Nick I think you're looking for ;)
 
@cigien that would seem logical but those questions have even less upvotes than php ones! :)
 
I'm happy with my half-answer, full-answer at present. I just find it fun :)
 
3:45 AM
True. We should create .
 
I prefer my original :)
 
As seen on meta, one can post an empty post and still get votes, so perhaps :)
 
Ooh, nice. I'm going to add that to all my posts :D
Might have the opposite effect though :(
 
@Scratte you need to get to 4242
 
@cigien Reverse psychology then ?
 
3:48 AM
Ah, that just might do the trick :)
 
@Scratte I suspect that might rebound :)
 
@Nick That'll take a year though. I'm not a very good rep-hunter.
 
I could give you a few 500 bounties :)
 
That would be cheating.. :) I did answer a post with a 500 bounty on it once, but fortunately a moderator cancelled the bounty on it.
 
@IanCampbell This was discovered by TylerH and Machavity by accident about 4 months ago. They made a meta about it, and the consensus was that while it's probably an accidental feature, there's not really a lot of potential for abuse. One thing I can think of is if someone added in targets where they had answers/questions, but if the target is irrelevant I expect this to be spotted pretty quickly. If the targets are relevant, then it's fine I guess.
Perhaps a SEDE query could be written to figure out whether this happens with any frequency. My guess is it's unlikely, but one never knows.
 
3:55 AM
@Scratte you have to ask yourself, what's more important, having a cool rep, or how you got there? :)
 
@Nick How I got there :) I'm a "the end doesn't justify the means"-type of person :)
 
@Scratte good to hear. I guess we'll wait a year...
 
@cigien I just reviewed the schema, it looks like it would be possible.
I think I'd have to be pretty bored.
 
@IanCampbell Sorry, what would be possible? Are you talking about the SEDE query?
 
That's a bit of a convoluted query, no?
 
3:59 AM
Yes
 
Ah, I see. You responded to the first message, so I was confused :p
 
Is there even a way to check SEDE for a change of duplicate targets?
 
See, this is what I get for being nice and not double pinging you to fix it.
 
Nah, you can double ping me, I don't mind. Scratte does it all the time ;)
 
I do.. I make a lot of typos.
 
4:01 AM
@Scratte Yes, there is. There is a PostLinks table with a PostLinkType = 3 = Duplicate.
With a time stamp. And the edits have timestamps and tags.
So we just need to find posts with a revision that adds a tag, with a new dup target that has that same tag removed afterwards.
 
@AmitJoshi Are you using the Request Generator userscript by any chance? I thought that added the tag when appropriate.
 
"just" :) We also need it to be performant enough to not timeout :)
 
(Its true that I have only 1 point in , but I know generally how it works)
 
Heh.. looking at tag where I have 1 point, I see stuff I only have a faint idea about.
Like "amazon-s3". Never used that.
 
@AmitJoshi I'm not sure those questions should be deleted, they have historical value.
 
4:15 AM
22 views a year with 0 upvotes. I'm not sure that's a lot of value.
 
Agreed, they look like they can be deleted.
 
@Scratte It's possible I'm doing it wrong, but I can't find any posts with a tag reversion after a dup target was added.
 
@IanCampbell Did you ever do it? Hmm.. maybe not, you'd have only been able to do it today, right?
 
@Scratte I have never done it
Now 3500 views a year and 36 upvotes, that one might be worth saving
The Wayback Machine has been very flaky lately. Why do I even give these people money?
 
The last upvote was in 2016. I wonder when the links started to die
@IanCampbell That looks a little off.. I'll need a little sleep though.
 
4:25 AM
@Nick Not sure at all, but isn't the first sentence actually answering the question?
 
It may be that most tag edits are embedded in other edits that are not of type Tag Rollback
 
@cigien you could argue that... but I would still argue that the reason for the post's existence is to get users to click the link to the poster's website
 
@Nick Ok, fair enough. Thanks for checking.
 
@IanCampbell I think I.Id = PL.Id should probably be I.PostId = PL.PostId
 
Ah, yes, that'd do it. Thanks.
 
4:35 AM
@IanCampbell That's giving a lot of false positives.
 
What I really need is for the badge that is added to be the badge that the close voter used, but that doesn't seem to be in the database.
 
@Nick Ok, that's spam.
 
@IanCampbell I think it needs to be the second edit..
 
This query finds edit tags > duplicate link > tag rollback
 
@IanCampbell What's the tag rollback?
 
4:40 AM
 
No, I mean is that a thing. A rollback that only covers tags?
:51311784 The duplicate target list wasn't edited though.. ;)
I think perhaps one should start with edits to the target list. And then see if there was a tag edit before and after.
And is there a difference if a user does a rollback compared to if they just press edit and edits the tags?
And maybe I'm trying to optimize ahead of time, but it seems to me to make sense to only look at closed posts. But maybe PL.LinkTypeID = 3 --Dup Target is already doing that :)
 
I'm trying to only find dup targets that are not added at the time of closure, but the times are off by a few seconds.
 
Do you find the explanation of the tables in a meta?
 
I've looked through a bunch now, doesn't seem to be a widespread problem.
 
4:55 AM
I'm going to need to sleep now. I'll probably look at it in the morning :)
 
Good night
 
5:10 AM
^ That entire Q&A is either for sock-puppeting or spam.
 
5:21 AM
@Nick Nothing wrong with the message, but you might consider hopping over to Charcoal in cases like this. It's easier to discuss such matters without having to worry about potentially crossing the line re the room's user moderation policies. No worries if you don't want to visit Charcoal of course.
 
@cigien I don't think I'm moderating a user/users, my comment is based purely on the content of the 3 posts on that page.
 
@IanCampbell Not quite working yet, since it doesn't check if it's the same user that did the editing of the tags: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/revision/1355820/1668699/…
 
@Nick No, I'm not saying there's any issue with the comment. I just meant that if there was something further that we could investigate that required user moderation, then we wouldn't be able to have the conversation here. Again, there's nothing wrong with your comment.
 
dbc
Is this sort of question on topic? It has a [mcve] with complete code demonstrating the problem, but still... How to get the list of followers from an Instagram account without getting banned?
 
5:36 AM
@dbc Seems like a programming question, and there's an mcve as you said. What's the issue with it?
 
dbc
It's explicitly about hacking around service limitations.
 
@cigien gotcha.
 
dbc
I haven't voted to close it or anything, just wondering whether there was any community agreement about such questions.
 
@dbc That's true, good point. I'm not sure what the policy is regarding this, I'll see if I can dig up something on meta.
@dbc Ha, turns out it's fine. There's even a tag and the tag wiki says "Activities to break into computer(s) or technology systems without authorized access.". So I guess it's fine :) There is a suggestion that the question might be more suited to security.se. So I suppose the question should be left open, and you could leave a comment for the OP suggesting they not actually do anything unethical.
This is the most related meta I could find by the way. There seems to be no indication that SO prevents such questions.
 
dbc
@cigien OK, looks convincing. The question itself looks good so I'll just add a missing tag.
 
5:53 AM
@dbc Ok. Thanks for adding the appropriate tag.
 
Is this off-topic? OP's code works perfectly fine, he just doesn't have enough disk space.
 
@dbc Possibly useful meta discussion meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/274906/…
 
@cigien Technically, the Terms of Service (Section 4) allows us to block questions about breaking into computer or technology systems. However, in practice, we really don't enforce it. Mods here tend to believe that information wants to be free, and getting the information out there for white hats is more useful than trying to keep it away from wanna-be black hats. cc @dbc
As with our homework policy, don't try to police intent. Just judge the question on its own merits.
Most of these are going to be off-topic for objective reasons. But if they're actually practical programming questions, and they're of sufficiently limited scope, then they're probably OK here. Let your conscience be your guide.
I would not recommend raising a moderator flag to say, "This person is asking for something illegal", unless you're going for a declined flag record or something.
5
Note that questions about a third party's terms of service are not on-topic here. However, programming questions that might happen to violate a third party's terms of service are... meh.
 
dbc
@oguzismail As long as scripting is on topic, a question asking for debugging help for a script and that includes a MCVE looks on-topic even if part of the problem was caused by a lack of disk space.
 
@dbc Agreed. As I've tried to establish before, topicality of questions is evaluated prima facie, not after you already know the answer. @oguzismail
You might argue that it should be closed as typo/not reproducible, if you really don't think that error would ever be encountered by anyone else.
I don't think that's appropriate in this case.
I'd be down for finding a duplicate, though.
What's weird about that question is that there seem to be two problems. First, they have the wrong code. Second, they are out of disk space.
I wonder if it wouldn't be better to simply edit out problem #2 and focus on problem #1, which has already been answered.
 
6:04 AM
I looked for one but Google didn't help.
No, the code is not wrong. His attempt #5 is correct.
 
dbc
@CodyGray OK, that all seems convincing. It's just a question about how to modify some code to work around a ToS rate limit, not something blatantly criminal. I asked here because I was just curious about how we handle such questions. And my question was answered, so thanks.
 
If they don't seem to know, a comment pointing out that it would violate the ToS is always appropriate. If they do, meh. Probably a downvote is appropriate. :-)
 
@IanCampbell There's no information of the UserId that edited the duplicate target list, so this is the closest I can get. It checks that the same user edited tags before and after the list was edited only: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/revision/1355824/1668703/…
 
@CodyGray It would be easier, I'd just close the question as duplicate. But that wouldn't help OP at all, since the problem is not the code
 
Well, they have an answer.
If the problem is truly just that they're out of disk space, maybe closing as a typo/no repro is best.
The error message is pretty self-explanatory.
 
6:11 AM
@CodyGray Thanks for the links, those are very interesting, though I haven't read all of it yet. The policy is certainly consistent with the cheating on homework policy. Though even if mods wanted to enforce this, I guess y'all simply wouldn't have the bandwidth to do so.
 
@cigien That's a major reason why we don't enforce it.
 
It seems that last SD report should have been rolled-back as vandalism, rather than flagged and deleted as R/A? stackoverflow.com/questions/65607154
 
We don't want to become the arbiter of third parties' terms of service or even countries' laws, if for no other reason than we don't want the responsibility of learning about those things first.
 
@CodyGray Right. But also, the benefit to white hats argument makes sense.
 
@Nick yeh, I was looking at that too
 
6:13 AM
@Nick I would have, except that it was vandalism to something that was already gibberish...
 
@CodyGray fair enough
 
@CodyGray Fair enough. I'd rather have programmers than lawyers as mods anyway. Language-lawyers are fine though :)
 
We used to have an actual lawyer as a mod.
Not a language lawyer.
 
I'm not sure if I were a lawyer and a mod for this site I'd want to be using my professional skills in any official capacity.
 
Right; they didn't.
Except in writing awesome moderator messages. :-)
 
6:16 AM
Well, I guess if the company paid me enough I might.
 
Nooooo, no. No. Definitely no. That would set a bad precedent.
 
Were they only a lawyer, or a programmer as well?
 
Well, am I a programmer?
 
@cigien I believe lawyer by profession, programmer by hobby.
 
Just say no and put me out of my misery.
 
6:17 AM
@IanCampbell Are you a true Scotsman?
 
Sadly no
 
@IanCampbell Would it be less miserable to be a programmer, or to be a lawyer? (Disclaimer: I've considered both of these careers.)
 
Well, I remember a certain someone being chided about being a Biologist, I think that's a respectable profession.
 
@CodyGray Ah, I see. That's cool.
 
@tripleee That's the most accurate duplicate target I've ever seen :D
 
6:19 AM
@oguzismail I was a bit skeptical really; hope they manage to figure out how to solve their actual problem. They were also trying to overwrite the input file so I was thinking of adding a duplicate for that as well
 
When I was in graduate school, I tried to convince the program to also pay for me to get a JD. They didn't go for it.
 
JDs who also have biochemical backgrounds are in major demand.
You could make bank. I'm not sure why a graduate program would pay for it, though.
 
My BS is in biochemistry, maybe it's time to paid.
 
Aren't you also a PhD?
I hear there are paying positions available.
 
Who has time for money, I'm too busy collecting internet reputation points.
 
6:23 AM
Good point. What would we do with the money anyway? Can't trade it for repz.
 
I'm sure Dharman would catch me if I tried.
 
@tripleee It lacked details anyway, if we knew he didn't need original files and the order of output didn't matter after merge perhaps someone could write a program that processes only a few lines and truncate files in a loop. But it's easier to delete some files and make room for output file.
 
@CodyGray To answer this question though, I think both are fun. Are you considering getting a JD?
 
@IanCampbell Not currently, no. It was something I considered many years ago, immediately after high school.
 
And yes, I do have a PhD, but I try not to go around advertising my credentials.
 
6:32 AM
Maybe that's why you're not getting paid?
 
Haha, well, I have a real job. They know what credentials I have.
 
@cigien Yes; I am using Request Generator userscript which shows cv-pls/del-pls dialog box. But, I did not understood what that request have to do with . That question is already closed long back. Is it due to bounty on the question? But question accepted my delete vote.
 
@AmitJoshi No, I was asking because there were no delete votes cast on the last 3 del-pls you made, so I was confused for a bit. You later added delete votes on at least 2 of them, so it's all good.
 
Well, you get 3 + (Rep - 10000)/1000 delete votes, right? So that's not many at 11700
 
@Nick I will disagree but may be I did not understood the criteria for historical value. Most of the links in all the answers are dead. I found just 1/2 working. Tag wiki of tag is full of resources. What historic value may be there in dead links?
 
6:38 AM
@IanCampbell In all seriousness, humility is good, but not equivalent to keeping your legitimately earned credentials a secret.
 
@AmitJoshi Well, I fixed the first link
Then the Wayback Machine started acting up, and I gave up
 
@CodyGray I second this, if I had a PhD I'd carry a big sign reading MAKE WAY FOR PHD OWNER
 
@oguzismail Haha. Well... that may be an example of what not to do...
 
@AmitJoshi I agree with you though, that none of those answers have have been upvoted since 2016, so probably not offering a lot of value
 
If for no other reason than people would think you were the valet for a PhD coming up behind you. :-)
 
6:46 AM
Well, there was that one time we were talking about medications to stop prostatic hypertrophy in here. There's a reason to keep things on the down low.
 
@CodyGray Yeah hiring a valet to do that is better, should have thought that
 
@IanCampbell Yeah, I wouldn't carry a sign telling everyone you have prostatic hypertrophy.
 
This is an odd room.
2
 
7:00 AM
When you set a bounty on an old question for a new answer but that answer never comes, is it okay to edit one of the existing answers with new information and award the bounty to it?
 
Define "okay".
Or, perhaps more specifically, why do you think this might not be okay?
 
"appropriate"
@CodyGray Thinking about it again I guess I just asked for the sake of having asked :D There's nothing wrong with it
 
Yeah, I can't think of any concerns. I'm just not sure if I might be missing something.
There's no obligation to do that, of course. You could post your own answer.
 
I found a similar question last night and answered it instead, hoping someone would see it and post a similar answer to the bountied question. But that doesn't seem likely to happen
 
@IanCampbell please tell me you don't give the way back machine any money...
 
7:13 AM
@bad_coder why not? how else do you think this project could sustain itself? do you not think it's useful?
 
@bad_coder Why not? It's a great service
 
@tripleee well I have given this some thought, and the reasons aren't immediately apparent. (Because a wider scope needs to be considered.)
 
if that was supposed to be an explanation, I could not understand it
 
@tripleee but I'll elaborate briefly, you have to consider the internet is still in its "infancy" (it's practical use by a wider audience is what, 20 -30 years old now?!)
@tripleee ok, so if we look in historical perspective, I'd start by pointing out the "Right to be forgotten".
@tripleee this marks a major difference between Europe and the rest of the world (in terms of our traditions in humanistic-legal values).
 
@bad_coder ironically, one of the footnotes is only available via archive.org
the Archive is just another site where you need to ask to have information to be removed
 
7:19 AM
@tripleee the take away is simple, if you analyze all the discourse of all the companies they said: "there's no way we can guarantee privacy" or "past, partial, etc, accusations that smear individuals good names can't be deleted"....
@tripleee well guess what, after a court-order and fines the companies did start adapting...(you see where I'm going with this).
 
not really, the Internet Archive is not one of those companies is it?
 
I'm a big proponent of the right for people to be forgotten, something that I think is sorely lacking in US jurisprudence. At the same time, I'm a big proponent of the right for information not to be forgotten. On balance, I think an archive service is a net good.
Once legal precedents catch up with humanitarian values, it is a simple matter of processing information removal from an archive, provided that you have good reasons for doing so.
 
@tripleee here begins the problem, google searches that affect such individuals aren't shown inside Europe (the case of the Internet Archive is interesting only because it's the paradigmatic site for enshrining info "ad eternum" - but I have serious reservations about such a need.)
@tripleee it should be rethought beyond what seems obvious ("the right to be forgotten" is actually directly correlated to human rights - that's how important the matter is in its essence.)
 
too much hand waving for me to follow, I'm afraid
 
@bad_coder I regularly donate to Internet Archive. And I don't feel the need to apologize for it.
 
7:25 AM
@tripleee what's "hand waving"?
 
I can appreciate the need to be forgotten. And I'm sure a reasonable technical solution can be arrived at.
 
@bad_coder abridged or unclear explanations, you wave your hands in the air when you don't have the words or don't want to spell them out
 
@tripleee then let me make it clear to you, one of these days a person dear to you might have some personal info leaked on the internet and then you might understand the need to be forgotten.
 
I'm not contesting the need to be forgotten at all; I agree that it's an important right
 
@tripleee or to get the thing deleted...
 
7:28 AM
I'm pretty sure the General Accounting Office leaked my personal information including social security number in a hack a while back. Thanks US government.
 
@tripleee well, at least that much. But hey, a lot of folks would go screaming their heads of saying: "you can't delete anything". That might be a popular concept around here.
 
what isn't clear is how "don't sponsor the Internet Archive" follows from that. Even if their operation is imperfect, it's an important service
 
7:39 AM
@IanCampbell yeah well, before "the right to be forgotten" there's no quantifying the amount of people that had personal info leaked. Before the law was passed there were people who had to campaign 15 years to get their info off the internet, and some of it is still out there.
 
I just don't see Internet Archive as the problem. It provides a valuable historical record. The problem you're describing is a societal problem.
 
If anything, it's easier to process the right to be forgotten if there's a central archive.
 
@CodyGray well, I expected you to have a humanistic approach to this. But lets just look at the US, it struck me as brutal when I found out how "background checks", with mugshots, and mortgage info, etc...Is so readily available (all the sites scraping address info that a person once posted without knowing better, etc...)
 
The major problem with personal information leaks is not that there's an archive where the information needs to be removed. It's that the information has leaked all over the place, to the point where removal is unfeasible.
@bad_coder Your having that expectation is somewhat humorous. I consider myself to be anti-humanist.
 
@CodyGray ok, lets look at the word "unfeasible". A court order and fines, within the year all those sites would be gone, gone....
 
7:44 AM
Court orders only work if the site is hosted within the borders of the country where that court has authority.
And even then...
Private mirrors, scrapers, offline downloads...
 
@CodyGray where are most of the sites hosted?
 
"Offshore" is the canonical term for it.
It always seemed inappropriately ethnocentric to me.
 
On the contrary, it's nearly impossible to get a site taken down with a court order. You're much more likely to be able to get it removed from search engines, making it invisible.
 
@CodyGray it's not a case of being ethnocentric. "The right to be forgotten" places the analyses clearly with "right to privacy" and human rights.
 
I think Cody meant the term offshore is ethnocentric, since, it's offshore from where?
 
7:47 AM
@IanCampbell yeah, take away the visibility and the problem is to a larger extent...gone!!
 
And so if that same content is present in web.archive.org, how is that a major issue?
 
@IanCampbell (For example, the baker on my street had a legal problem - so his name stood smeared on the internet for 15 years, after the trial he was found innocent, but even if he had been found guilty he'd still have the right to be forgotten.)
 
And so, say Mr. Baker placed a right to be forgotten request to all the major search engines and the local news stories could no longer be found. How is a copy of that news story being on archive.org a problem?
 
You keep arguing in favor of the right to be forgotten as if anyone here had disagreed with you, when, in fact, precisely the opposite has happened.
As it turns out, it's an issue that I feel especially passionate about for personal reasons.
 
@IanCampbell well, here you get the international dimension of the problem. Google doesn't serve info, but there's a notice to his name. So you get a proxy and there stands the baker's name smeared.
 
7:52 AM
That "proxy site" you're talking about may be a problem, but that's still not an archive.org problem. Since archive.org is not indexed in a search engine, it isn't contributing to that being discoverable.
 
@CodyGray now, that is not true. I started by pointing out a very interesting problem with the concept of the "internet archive" and basically it was suggested it's a non-issue. That is the problem -folks saying it's nothing- it's a paramount issue of our time.
@IanCampbell well, I think the baker should not have his name smeared in Europe, or in the US, or anywhere for that matter. So it's not the proxy, it's the archives and everything that keeps them up.
 
I think we're arguing in circles at this point. I'm off to bed.
 
@IanCampbell have a good night, I enjoy your posting.
 
 
9:11 AM
@JeanneDark Well, what do you know, that's a duplicate.
 
@CodyGray I only look for duplicates on MSO ;)
 
I'll bet that makes it harder to find them. Most of the programming questions on MSO get deleted.
 
That explains my lack of success ;)
Speaking of which, I kind of feel like I stole that answer from you. (Isn't the question a question, and not a , btw.?)
 
The line between "support" and "discussion" is somewhere in rene's avatar.
I kind of like having you answer questions, especially when I can endorse the answers. No complaints from me. Let's make it a new thing.
@Nkosi I've tried to edit that so it is not primarily opinion-based and will lead to fact-based answers. I don't, in general, see a problem with asking about deciding between design patterns.
 
rechecking now
 
@Makyen As far as I can tell, there is/was never any reason to migrate it away from CodeReview. I think it would be appropriate to migrate it back to CR, but asking on MCR won't matter because they don't have the authority to migrate it back. It would be a decision made by moderators here. The most I could do is ask why in MCR, then ask for reverse-migration in SO. I was hoping someone here could justify the migration and save me some effort.
@Scratte The question is not off-topic on Stack Overflow, but I don't see why it was off-topic/migratable from CR. I feel it should not have been migrated in the first place.
 
But why are you asking SO mods why a question was migrated from CR to SO?
 
Second time this user is self-promoting their post ^^
 
@JeanneDark I am asking SOCVR users what they think because this room is full of knowledgeable people who care and whom I respect.
 
I like respect.
 
9:46 AM
I like knowledge.
 
I like rooms.
 
I like because.
 
I am developing a distaste for all meta sites, so I'd rather poll here. Metas are good sites if you like to collect no-comment downvotes.
 
@mickmackusa If it's not off-topic on SO, what can we do? It seems to me that what matters are the OP's and the CR mods' opinions on this.
 
@JeanneDark then I guess I have no choice but to do the two-step. I'll ask in MCR then.
 
9:48 AM
I like no-comment downvotes.
12
 
@mickmackusa If it makes you feel any better, it also collects many no-comment upvotes.
 
Note that it wasn't Code Review moderators who migrated it, just community members. But I also agree that there's nothing Stack Overflow should do in response unless it is off-topic for us. I don't see that it is.
Code Review has some pretty specific requirements for what types of questions they allow. I assume that they decided that one doesn't meet their requirements. If they're unwilling to entertain it, I don't know why we should be so unwilling.
 
10:01 AM
I like likes. Can we have likes on SO, please?
 
Is this NAA? Not sure because it links to a bug that is probably relevant to the question
 
@AdrianMole Well, we did have thanks for a small while. We didn't like it.
 
@E_net4thedownvoter Thanks.
 
@AlonEitan flag as VLQ, link only answer, always add comment about vote when you vote for this reason so OP has feedback
 
@AlonEitan What if the link dies? Then nothing in it answers the question ("This very late reply , but could be helpful for the ones who are facing this issue. Here is an example regard, Rahul.")
@Ruli You suggest to comment when you downvote?
 
10:04 AM
OK, makes a lot of sense. Thanks
 
@AdrianMole Does my like for you not count?
@AlonEitan Probably NAA by the letter of the law. If it were me, I'd prefer to edit it into an answer, though.
 
Count Cody? When were you granted that honour?
 
I learned to count pretty late... Maybe age 3?
 
Since I have no idea about the topic of the question then I can't do it. I'll just let it be
 
Well, if you can't edit it, then you have to flag it. It isn't a valid answer as it stands.
 
10:07 AM
Since I retracted my NAA because I wasn't sure then now someone else will have to flag it :|
 
@JeanneDark I always add comments that the link may die and the answer will not be useful anymore and that that answers should contain all important info, is there something wrong about it?
 
@Ruli No, it just read to me like a suggestion to comment on downvotes.
 
Thanks Cody :)
 
Handled already; no worries.
 
@JeanneDark ah I meant when I flag, but well yes I usually comment even when I downvote to give feedback, how is a guy that has account for few hours going to know what he did wrong otherwise? :)
 
10:13 AM
@E_net4thedownvoter Nobody is ever upset by no-comment upvotes. It normally implies agreement or finding a post to be "good / insightful / thought-provoking. No-comment downvotes, on the other hand, go a long way toward being unwelcoming and irritating.
 
@Ruli The messages that come from the system when action is taken.
 
The poster has no way of deriving the justification/reason for the downvote, so there is an informational bottleneck. It often feels like conversing with toddlers who don't yet know how to "use their words" -- they just kick their feet and say "I don't like it!".
 
@mickmackusa Pretty sure I know that. ;)
 
I've repeatedly been upset by no-comment upvotes.
 
@Ruli It's not entirely the same but its answer offers several reasons why it's discouraged to comment on downvotes: Why isn't providing feedback mandatory on downvotes, and why are ideas suggesting such negatively received?
 
10:14 AM
well about answers, here is accepted answer and here is later answer with not really new info, seems like a comment to me, is this one NAA?
 
@Ruli The second one (by Andrew Zolotarev) is indeed NAA. It's just a "thanks" to the accepted answer.
 
@CodyGray some folks derive enjoyment from being contrary.
 
Yup!
Whereas I derive enjoyment from post votes being a silent ranking system.
 
I don't mind disruptive behavior so long as it is in the name of postive growth. Being disruptive for the sake of chaos only wastes energy.
 
It's pretty unfair to assume that the people who downvote a post are doing so merely "for the sake of chaos", though.
Why not equally assume that the upvoters are doing it to skew the ranking system?
Rarely do people click buttons here without having a good reason for doing so. That obviously doesn't exclude the possibility that they are objectively wrong, much less that you disagree with them. But I almost never see evidence of purely irrational behavior.
 
10:20 AM
oh never had anything removed @CodyGray so my info about system messages is quite low :( will check out the post that @JeanneDark sent, thanks for reading
 
@mickmackusa Hanlon's razor is a two-way bridge here.
Even when there may be reasons for some people on the site to hate us, any time one starts taking downvotes personally is, IMO, a time to take a break.
 
I have asked enough "discussion" question to know that people would much rather offer a cryptic vote than actually offer intellectual input. The endeavor has proven to be disappointing. Here, on the other hand, is a room devoid of the voting mess and full of insights (even if occasionally sarcastic and contrary).
@CodyGray I am confident that you would be in the minority with this feeling
 
@mickmackusa By far most of your contributions on MSO have a positive score. When you're suggesting a change to the system, downvotes usually just mean disagreement ("Should we do X?" -> Downvote = "No, we shouldn't").
 
@mickmackusa Those who think like this may be a minority, but then again, so is the curator base on SO, and that one does not play a minor role.
We just don't keep saying it because we know better. A message in chat every once in a while is fine. Comments complaining about upvotes (or any other kind of vote), nope.
 
10:39 AM
Voting (alone) is an inarticulate tool. It is like honking your car horn. Some basic inferences can be made, but that is about all. When someone asks a discussion question and the downvotes start piling up with no explanation, then there is absolutely no discussion taking place.
 
Talking about votes - has anyone ever suggested a feature for an "un-down vote"? I often see posts that were (heavily) downvoted and/or closed for whatever reason (with or without comment) but then were edited into proper shape. OK, if closed they can then be reopened, but they 'start off' at a unfairly negative score. And the downvoters seldom return (IME) to potentially retract. ...
... I know I can upvote but this is not always appropriate. A question (or answer) can be unworthy of my upvote yet still not be worthy of a downvote, IMHO.
 
The usual counter-argument to that is "ensure it's good before posting". Even if a question was reopened, an automatic and non-discriminated assessment of value based on the fact that the question was reopened... doesn't sound quite right.
Not that I would be bothered by something like a question being clamped to -3 or -5 when that happens.
 
@AdrianMole You mean I don't upvote a downvoted post, I just vote to negate someone else's downvote?
 
I'm not suggesting anything automatic. It would be at the discretion of viewers. Also, there would need to be some mechanism to prevent such undownvotes moving the score into positive territory.
@JeanneDark Yes.
 
@AdrianMole I haven't come across such a proposal. It's usually rather about contacting, pinging, messaging, punishing downvoters. In your suggested scenario, that undownvote should count as a vote, so I shouldn't be able to undownvote and then upvote or something like that.
 
10:50 AM
@JeanneDark Yeah. It would be complicated, I know. I was just letting the idea ruminate in the meadows of my mind the other day, so I thought I'd let it out here...
 
Well, it has been a quiet day on MSO so far... ;)
 
All the empty fun is over at MSE.
 
What happened to that "Blank Question" question that was moved to MSE? I can't find it any more (and don't have 10K on MSE). Was it deleted?
 
@AdrianMole See empty question
2
 
NM - I found it. Weird that I can't link to it from my comments history.
 
@AdrianMole I agree with this thinking/scenario. It aligns with my personal "Mary MacKillop Policy" of endeavoring to counter certain types of abuse.
 
Sure, let's talk about abuse. :)
 
@AdrianMole That's already built in the system, its called up vote ;)
In general, you shouldn't vote based on the score of the post but on the current status of it. The downvoters did so.
 
"... I know I can upvote but this is not always appropriate. A question (or answer) can be unworthy of my upvote yet still not be worthy of a downvote, IMHO."
 
^ :-)
 
11:12 AM
If you believe it to be a "good question™" then vote away which ever way you like. Do not take the score or the apparent "unfairness" of it. For the downvoters it was unfair that their time was wasted reading a subpar question when the asker had all the time in the world to make a good question.
That's why "fairness" shouldn't be part of why people vote. We vote on content, not people.
 
Can a C++ SME help me find the canonical for "how to index into an array?"
 
11:32 AM
@mickmackusa do you think anyone outside of Australia understands that reference?
 
@cigien Needs details or clarity! What sort of array? What sort of index? Do you have a specific question that looks like a dupe?
 
Should this question be merged in this?
 
@AdrianMole Yeah, this one. I didn't want to share the link because it would have been insta-closed for the usual reasons. I wrote an answer in case there wasn't a canonical, and my answer has already been criticized, fairly, for not being up to my usual standards :p
 
That's not a dupe. It's unclear. Do they want a copy of the string or just a copy of the pointer?
 
11:48 AM
"store the 2nd index value to a separate variable x.". How is that not a copy?
 
They want to do further operation on string "mango". On the original or on a copy?
... I was thinking of a CV myself but decided to skip.
@cigien BTW, in your answer, x will be a char* that is the address of the third element of fruits. It won't be a copy of that string.
 
Oh, true, I didn't even notice that, thanks. I dumped the answer anyway. Guess I'll have to wait for someone to ask that question eventually.
 
"Can anyone provide answer within 30m for this please"
 
pfpfhphfppfhphffh
 
12:16 PM
@DalijaPrasnikar I saw that and my brain went "No, don't delete the 'difference between git pull and git fetch' question" :)
 
Finally ... I can't tell how happy I'm now ...
3
 
@rene congrats
 
12:32 PM
@bad_coder I had to look up "Hanlon's razor" mentioned by e_net. I assumed it was perfectly acceptable to make unexplained references here.
 
@cigien ;P
 
@mickmackusa that expression ("whatever razor") is just nonsense and presumptuous, the term from classic culture is ignorance (calling ignorance stupidity is a misnomer that intends to offend.) On the other hand, saint Mary MacKillop was a person and an historical figure.
 
12:57 PM
is this an acceptable question? Seem to be aiming ML methodology only to me, but I'm not sure this time
 
@cigien That doesn't even make sense. A post shouldn't be evaluated on the basis that the particular poster usually posts better ones.
 
@rene congrats!! I'm a bit surprised only 6 of those have been awarded, it took you 26 answers to get it. I expected there'd be more voting on that type of question.
 
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