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12:13 AM
OK. So the joke started with a message from AdrianMole. I can't find the message that it refers to though. Then.. JeanneDark seemed confused as to whether or not it was a joke. And I suppose Cody felt it had to be set straight.
 
12:30 AM
@bad_coder Since you didn't like my other linked bit of music, I found something Danish (they sing in English though) and older Savage Rose - What Do You Do Now. I like her voice because it's both fragile and strong, which seems like an odd contradiction.
 
12:50 AM
Is this question on-topic? stackoverflow.com/q/65449489/11573842
 
1:02 AM
@Scratte I liked your other link, and also this one.
@Scratte Believer
 
@IanCampbell You're behind.. you need to defend the unicorn :)
 
I am still left to complete that :p
 
Ah.. where are you stuck?
@bad_coder It sounds like waiting for something to happen :)
 
1:37 AM
@bad_coder that... is a different believer from what I am used to 😀
 
2:33 AM
@AnnZen Just wondering, why didn't you vote on this?
 
3:22 AM
@Scratte I accidentally missed the Christmas one because I was waisting time with my family. I think I'll just have to resign myself to second place.
 
@IanCampbell There's still time for the unicorn hat :)
btw.. I cheated to get the Christmas day one. I just voted on a post on the 24th at 10:01 UTC :)
 
I voted on Meta, but it didn't seem to count.
 
4:43 AM
@Turing85 You would have had to raise a custom moderator flag, writing that it was homework. Those would have been rightly declined, because moderators couldn't care less whether or not a question is homework, and neither should you. That something is homework is not a close reason, nor relevant in any way whatsoever.
Note that we also do not care about effort. Lack of research effort is a downvote reason, but not a close reason, and definitely not a flag reason.
@cigien Absolutely not. No more so than "asker is a beginner programmer and won't understand the answer", and "asker is from <some country I don't like>, and I'm afraid if we help them, they'll steal my jorb".
@Turing85 Do note that we have already implemented the first bullet point on your list. It's what's in the close pop-up dialog.
Granted, they are intentionally somewhat ambiguous, because completely unambiguous rules/guidelines are essentially impossible, and as you try, all you do is succeed in making them longer and less clear.
But... there's never been a real problem pop up when people follow the close reasons listed on the page. It's only when they invent their own, or use interpretations of the existing close reasons that they themselves recognize are "creative".
 
@cigien Oops, I forgot.
 
@TomerShetah What details or clarity are lacking there? The asker hasn't been told in any way, shape, or form. Looking at it without any domain knowledge, it looks like a perfectly clear and focused question.
 
4:59 AM
@AnnZen Ok, no worries, it happens. I was just wondering if you'd run out of close votes. In case that does happen, just make sure to mention in the close reason why you weren't able to vote yourself.
 
@Scratte Almost no preliminary investigation is required or even suggested before raising a flag for suspected voting fraud. As was mentioned to you by someone else, it's not really appropriate to bring things up like that in this room. Aside from the fact that this room doesn't moderate users, it also isn't the place to dump work orders.
It's rather insulting that you notice problems, but feel that they are beneath you to actually solve yourself, and thus expect others to jump in and do the work.
Because you brought them up and gave others a chance, you can then justify washing your hands of it, saying, in effect, "I tried, but no one cared to do anything".
No, you didn't care to do anything. You cannot pawn off the responsibility on someone else. Flags work because users use them to confidentially bring concerns to moderator attention. Once the flag is raised, your job is done, and the responsibility transfers to the moderator team. But before the flag is raised, it's still your responsibility, and if you fail to notify someone using an appropriate channel, then that's a choice you're making.
Don't put that choice or responsibility off on someone else.
 
@AnnZen What serendipity that you re-requested a CV-Pls on the same question that was requested before that Cody commented on not seconds later. Anyway, I agree, seems pretty clear.
 
@Turing85 Hand-picked and editable by moderators; see: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/390769/…
 
Hmm, looks like I had a chat bug, sorry to bother you
 
I think I'm confusing @IanCampbell.
 
5:06 AM
Maybe I should stop using 20 userscripts
 
I only have 4 that appear to be active in chat. Two of them are just active on all SE sites (one strips user IDs from "share" links, and the other makes short links more visible).
 
I may have been exaggerating slightly.
 
@AdrianMole I agree with virtually everything you can find posted by Jeff Atwood, with a few notable exceptions, including that certain questions are too "basic" for Stack Overflow. In this case, I agree that the MSE Q&A you picked to share was almost entirely irrelevant, which is frustrating, because there are lots of good MSO Q&A relating to "effort". I've linked many of them in the Ministry of Silly Hats.
There's enough misinformation about this topic, so I am perhaps extra sensitive to it, but if you aren't going to share correct or useful links, it would be best to share none at all.
@cigien There's another moderator who agrees with me and supports changing the Help Center page as previously discussed. Makyen was just concerned about the change being completely unilateral (even though it was undoing a previous equally unilateral change), and thought there should be some discussion/trail first. We haven't brought it up again internally, since, you know, holiday.
In fact, I'm not super thrilled that you picked Christmas Day to post the Meta question about it, but I guess we are an international site, so I can't be too annoyed by timing of events around specific arbitrary days.
 
5:22 AM
@CodyGray Normally of course, I'd wait for you to finish reading the transcript (and also look at meta, which you don't seem to have done yet), but I'll just respond to this for now. I don't see the problem with posting on Christmas. Not because of the international site argument, which is valid, but you seem annoyed because y'all mods couldn't get to it soon after I posted the meta. What's the rush? It can be addressed 2 days or even a week later, right?
 
@bad_coder Is the description of what is required clear to you or anyone else with relevant subject-matter expertise? If not, vote to close as lacking clarity. If it's clear, but is too broad to be answered in a Q&A format (i.e., is asking for way more than can be demonstrated with 100 lines of code, generally speaking, like "How do I build a social networking site?"), then vote to close as lacking focus. Otherwise, if it's about programming, it's on-topic for SO and should not be closed.
@cigien I prefer to keep an eye on potentially controversial issues when brought up on Meta...
It's also much easier for me when I can follow along as it goes, rather than trying to pick up the pieces and catch up afterwards.
 
Oh, I see. I didn't think of that. Fortunately, we don't seem to have burned down meta in your absence ;) And yeah, it's a little trickier to catch up when a lot happens, sorry about that.
 
Right. Just, there's always enough to catch up on.
 
True. Ok, I'll let you get back to catching up. There's bits you'll find juicy I think ;)
 
There's a lot that is pissing me off, that's for sure.
Apparently someone burninated the [seeeduino] tag, which was a major WTF.
"I'd say [it's] not really [even on-topic for the site]. Seeeduino itself is just a development board."
As an embedded developer, that kind of thing borders on really pissing me off.
What if I just decided that all this web stuff is not real programming?
HTML? That's not programming. You aren't even writing code. It's just a scripting language. Burninate the tag! And don't even get me started on CSS.
 
5:31 AM
Wasn't there an actual meta to burninate [php] at one point? :p
 
Databases? Oh, that's clearly not programming, either. You aren't even writing real code.
 
@CodyGray apparently machine learning isn't programming either.
and actually... shouldn't databases be redirected to SF?
 
5:43 AM
@Scratte There have been C++ compilers named "cpp". However, that mostly comes from the file extension for C++ source code files, which is ".cpp", presumably since special characters like plus signs would not have been readily supported by all systems. In this context, then, cpp always means C++, the language, not a specific compiler.
 
Can mods burninate a tag with one click or do they have to edit questions one by one like us fellow mortals?
 
Referring to the language with the name of a specific compiler is ill-advised, as there are many popular compilers, even more unpopular compilers, and the names of most compilers are not exactly obvious. Consider the name of Microsoft's compiler, "cl". That's even less obvious than "g++" (the Gnu C++ compiler).
@oguzismail One click will merge one tag into another (also works for renaming tags), but actually removing the tag requires editing each question one-by-one, even for moderators.
 
That's.. inconvenient.
 
@oguzismail Agreed. Shog9 used to have a tool that would allow him to do things of that nature, but with his departure, we no longer have access to such tools. Even if we got the source code from him and tried to maintain it, there are concerns about staff about the use of such tools, since they leave almost no revision history and cannot be easily reversed.
 
I'd recommend not looking much into the tag unless you want a headache.
 
5:48 AM
@Nick It's not too broad. It isn't broad at all. Editing it out is the correct approach. I would prefer leaving the explanation simply as an edit description, rather than a noisy comment; I've moved it there now. It is, however, a duplicate, so I've closed it as such.
 
That's a shame. The other day a tag appeared, someone added the tag to three only tangentially related questions and edited in a tag wiki, I rolled back his edits and practically burninated the tag. Not sure if it was okay for me to do that though
 
@oguzismail I'd generally say yes. The consensus is that, for very small tags, it's OK for a someone with relevant subject-matter expertise to make the call about whether it's an acceptable tag. Especially when it was just created on a spree by a single user.
@Turing85 Not all Docker questions are general computing. I don't see why that one would be. It is clearly being used and asked about in a software development context.
 
@CodyGray Well, as I said at the time, I'm not an SME, so it looked broad to me. Anyway, it's good you knew of a dupe to properly close it. I'm curious as to your thinking about moving the comment to the edit description, isn't it possible that OP might not see it then?
 
@Nick I am not a subject-matter expert, either. I simply used a Google search. Were the question about modifying the OpenCV code itself and changing the icon in Windows, that would be within my domain. But I've never used OpenCV in any way, so doing it within that framework is not something I know anything about. Still, it's clear enough that "I want to accomplish this specific task using this particular framework" is not too broad.
They might not see it, unless they go looking to try and understand why their post was edited, then, yes, I would hope they'd see it.
I'd prefer keeping the noise down in the comments and having a permanent explanation as to why the edit was made.
@RiggsFolly This is the canonical reference on the subject of multiple accounts. Your next message indicates that you suspect the multiple accounts are being used to work around a question ban. That's a clear abuse of the system, and deserves a moderator flag.
 
6:04 AM
@CodyGray ah - I got thrown by the editing opencv library part. It didn't occur to me there was a simple solution :P
Thanks for the explanations, I'll keep them in mind should (when?) I encounter a similar post in the future.
 
@Scratte There's no technical barrier. It's simply because the site doesn't work if privileged users don't use their privileges.
If you want to use the site in an unprivileged mode, you can just log out. Simple.
@Scratte Moderators can delete chat rooms outright, which will make them effectively inaccessible. But see meta.stackexchange.com/a/169479
@ekad That is not a request for an off-site resource.
 
7:06 AM
^ can be closed as a duplicate of stackoverflow.com/questions/15571706/… too
 
What's the deal with these comments suggesting to use shellcheck.net? Is that the new "what have you tried?" or "LMGTFY" comment?
 
@CodyGray It's a static analyzer for shell scripts
 
Why is that a useful comment?
 
Not saying it's a useful comment, but that's a useful website for spotting such trivial mistakes
To me, to cast a close vote as typo is better
 
7:45 AM
@CodyGray you tp-ed that? Why?
 
@rene See comment.
It's total garbage.
 
Okay, you redefined garbage for me but I'll go with that then.
 
Did I?
Spammy title, unformatted code, no question...
 
Yeah, I can understand that line of thought. It wasn't one I followed.
 
8:01 AM
I take a pretty practical view of feedback, and I would prefer not to give feedback that suggests similar posts should not be caught in the future.
Note that I wouldn't red-flag nuke a post like that on the site, but only because red flags carry additional penalties, which I would consider inappropriate in this case. But I don't see the decision to red flag as identical to the decision to mark as a TP.
 
I think we agree on the low quality nature of the post. I'm not in the camp that thinks Smokey should be used for anything low quality and as such I would not feedback on these kind posts. To be honest I did expect to find a vandalized post so was a bit surprised that wasn't the case here.
 
If it works for vandalism, why not also work for excessively low-quality and non-English content?
I agree that its mission shouldn't be to catch low-quality posts. But when the post is caught because of existing rules, why should we declare that it's invalid?
 
I think I'm confused by the broader mission Smokey got and I'm still stuck in the past where tp only meant: this is spam and fp only meant this is not spam. Your reasoning seems valid as well, at least I can't find reasonable arguments to counter your point.
 
8:18 AM
@CodyGray I know those post. They do, however, not address all issues. Some users argue that, for example minikube is a developer tool. Also, the lines are extremely blurry. What about questions surrounding the docker-maven-plugin? I One can argue that they are on-topic since they involve maven.
 
@Turing85 All lines are going to be blurry. It's impossible to define the scope any more sharply than "tools commonly/primarily used by software developers".
To me, the best test is, are they using it in a programming context?
 
@CodyGray But we care about "homework with no effort": "However, you must have made a good faith attempt to solve it yourself." (no effort -> no good faith attempt)
 
@Turing85 No, we absolutely don't. That's advice to users on how to ask good homework questions. It isn't outlining a reason to close a question.
Effort is irrelevant to us, not least because it's impossible to determine, but also because it has nothing to do with the question itself.
 
I am not a native english speaker, but the wording is quite strong on this one "You must ..."
 
Yes, we strongly recommend that askers of homework questions make an effort to solve the problem themselves.
In fact, we recommend that everyone make an effort to resolve the problem themselves before asking.
Lack of research effort is literally listed first on the tooltip for the downvote arrow.
But it still isn't a reason to close a question.
I saw from the discussion earlier that you are misunderstanding that bullet point in the [on-topic] Help Center page. That was added unilaterally some years ago by a single moderator to justify his personal frustration with low-effort homework questions. It does not represent site policy, which you can see from the fact that it's not an actual close reason.
This is the reason I have argued before that we need to remove that bullet point from the [on-topic] page, because it's actively causing confusion.
 
8:28 AM
@CodyGray can I invite you in a separate chat?
 
@Turing85 If necessary. Or you can use The Ministry of Silly Hats if it's OK that the discussion be public.
 
 
2 hours later…
10:38 AM
@AmitJoshi I do not even understand why that question was closed. How is it opinion-based?
 
@CodyGray IMO, from the question (answers also confirm it), it is hard to suggest any definite answer. I mean, there might be many reasons the why "hell" has happened.
 
@AmitJoshi The answers don't seem to confirm that to me. They both provide a practical solution of recompiling the original library from source to address the incompatibilities. The question seems pretty clear about the source of the incompatibilities, too: a version dependency mismatch.
 
Does this count as self-promotion? The linked repo belongs to the answerer
 
RO, please bin this request as the question is re-opened now and cannot be deleted.
 
@oguzismail It looks like a legitimate and helpful answer. I've changed "the" to "my" as a minor but sufficient disclaimer of affiliation.
 
10:51 AM
Okay, I did the same with another similar answer
 
Cool, thanks.
Upon retrospect, my edit comment should have linked to stackoverflow.com/help/promotion.
I've updated yours and my comments to include that now.
 
Yes, better this way. Thanks
 
11:08 AM
@Turing85 The line is simple: are you developing a system or managing the system? If managing the system, then obviously is off topic.
 
@CodyGray Right. It was probably nothing anyway.
 
@ekad Well that was weird... I cast the 3rd delete vote on that question and it all went that strange burgundy colour they use in dark mode for deleted posts, and then suddenly the page reset and said "this post has been deleted, please refresh the page" and it said that @CodyGray had deleted it
 
@Nick Sorry, I re-deleted to ensure that couldn't be undeleted.
As I was going for the "delete" link, I saw that it got deleted, so I re-aimed for my "redelete" link (added by a userscript).
 
@CodyGray makes perfect sense. It just spooked me! :)
 
Not quite as cool as Sully's thing, but hey.
@Nick I'm good at that.
 
11:13 AM
@CodyGray :)
 
@CodyGray That is a misrepresentation. Look at all the meta posts about declined flags where the major reason for the declined flag is a lack of proper explanation when raising the flag. That means that a very good explanation is required and that's going to be very difficult without investigating further.
 
@Scratte I haven't seen that with respect to suspected sockpuppetry flags.
 
Because "I think some iffy is going on" would be a super great flag to raise? Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not ever raising it.
 
You should define "iffy". It should not be necessary to do any research, though, because you already know why you have your own suspicions.
I have not ever noticed you to be a person who shares an opinion without having some reason for it.
You've thought of it already. It's not that arduous to just type it in.
 
@CodyGray That's because I think about it and then I investigate.. but if I don't have to investigate, then the argument becomes vague.
 
11:17 AM
@Scratte So... you're willing to post vague suspicions in here, but not raise them as a moderator flag? Or would you do the legwork anyway before posting the vague suspicions in here (which is what I'd suspect)?
 
But to be clear, this was my thought process: 1. Something is off with this post. 2. I should investigate. 3. Perhaps this is flagable.
Then I investigated.. and I didn't raise a flag. You're right about that. I'll change my routine from now on.
 
I'm assuming that the change will be in a perverse way, rather than the logical one. But OK.
 
I'm applying the same logic as the decline of the two "plagiarism is fine in a Question"-decline reasons I got.
@CodyGray Nice. "How do I delete a chat room?"
 
@Scratte You mean the reasons that everyone decided were completely wrong?
 
@CodyGray Obviously not everyone. And one of those not everyone is still handling flags, I assume.
 
11:23 AM
@Scratte What is your basis for concluding that?
 
@CodyGray That's the natural conclusion when something isn't addressed, no?
 
Not really. A more likely conclusion is that that one person didn't see your Meta question because they don't follow everything that happens on Meta.
Unless it's me, you cannot simply assume that they'll see it because it's on Meta.
And even I might miss something.
Who knows, it could happen someday.
 
Yes, you are correct. But perhaps someone did. Perhaps they didn't tell that other someone. Perhaps no one told that other person. Maybe no one even saw it. It could also have been a completely foolish Question and all the voters just got confused about which button was down.
 
Some of those hypotheses seem further fetched than others.
 
Assume I'm just a regular users that does not use chat. I post a Question about my conduct on meta, and then.. that. Or better yet. Assume I'm just a normal user that searched for this and found that post on meta.. what is there to learn about it?
 
11:31 AM
Do you want me to defend that things are perfect on this site?
That's so ridiculous, it's caused my avatar to wear its space suit upside down.
 
@CodyGray Nice :) You were wearing it upside down in anticipation that you were going to have a silly conversation with me :D
 
It was so ridiculous that it went back across the space-time continuum and caused a minor behavior change.
Didn't you notice the blip?
 
No.. I only had two major blips on this site. They completely changed the way I do things.
 
Only hats I've earned are secret hats... I haven't done anything different.
 
11:36 AM
I know about it.. I think the conclusion was "Everything would have been better had I not been born". Or maybe that's just the movie.
 
I think that's some horror movie plot, not related to butterflies or chaos theory.
 
..but
@CodyGray That's not what I was talking about. I suspect you know that too. But it would make it impossible to flag anything nor mention to anyone of something I noticed ;) I'll have to check if I can make a userscript move the left sidebar up to a menu-item. Using Stack like that would be very time-saving :) And.. it'll even remove the conundrum of "to flag or not to flag" :)
@CodyGray Nice. "How do I delete a chat room?"
 
@Scratte Do you mean the left navigation sidebar? That can already be hidden and moved to a menu item.
 
@CodyGray Yes that. Not being logged in makes it.. difficult to set as a setting on one's profile, no?
 
Oh, I see.
Well, much to your pending dismay, I've been planning to make a feature request to open up flagging to anonymous users. It's something I've wanted for a long time.
 
11:44 AM
@CodyGray are you still awake?
 
@bad_coder I think from that last message it seems Cody's dreaming while I'm having a nightmare :D
 
@bad_coder Hard to say.
 
However flagging as anonymous would remove the fear of the declined flag. But may add so many flags to the pile that it'll just drown the useful ones.
 
@CodyGray lol, good humor. Listen I bet you have things to attend to. But looking at the definition of "discrimination" (the way it should be understood). I'm deeply upset because that bulletpoint in the help center amounts to objective discrimination against the "profession of student". A lot of people fail to see objective discrimination for what it is, but I take issue.
 
They don't have to be weighted identically
@bad_coder Students aren't really a protected class for the purposes of anti-discrimination laws, and I think that argument is a bit of a stretch. But I obviously do agree that it shouldn't matter whether someone is a student or a professional or whatever.
 
11:48 AM
I wonder if it could be a useful feature for Smokey so that it wouldn't have to juggle a couple hundred real accounts.
 
Can one not be a professional student?
 
@CodyGray well, I could reproduce some of you previous rational on making rules on top rules. But the fact is: student are a protected profession against discrimination (if anything, not enough so.)
 
@Scratte Do it out of passion instead of getting paid?
so basically arts major
 
@JohnDvorak hey >:(
 
@CodyGray and I also don't want to pick an argument, especially with you because I respect your continued efforts to make the community better. What I can say, is that I think this is issue of extreme gravity.
 
11:51 AM
sorry
 
@JohnDvorak I know the definition is people that have it as a profession gets paid. And amateurs don't. However.. I've seen pretty poor people get paid and really good ones not.
 
@bad_coder It's a big deal to me, too, but for apparently quite different reasons than for you.
 
@CodyGray I said my peace, it boils down to 1 word. I don't care to have to repeat that word.
 
When everyone is wearing the same dress, I get a little confused :D
For a moment I thought that JohnDvorak was AdrianMole :)
 
@bad_coder Well, I don't really see how this is discrimination. Are you talking simply about the idea that there are different standards for different groups of people? That isn't really sufficient to provide discrimination.
What is unfair or prejudicial about it?
The problem here is harassing people about whether or not they are students, which is the inevitable result of a policy that requires or encourages treating students differently.
 
12:01 PM
@CodyGray yeah, treating them different (leads to legitimizing harassment) plus a dual-standard that discriminates based on age/culture about most of all profession.
@CodyGray I'm sorry man, I've seen to much of that in my lifetime (and what bothers is that it stood for years, we all took part to some degree, set up the system, a lot of people wanting a frank discussion about it were probably peer-pressured, etc...)
@CodyGray discrimination is made a thousand little gestures, by a lot of people. And this one is just another example to it. (I went to bed yesterday thinking my participation here is over. That's where I stand with institutional harassment and discrimination.)
 
I really think you are overblowing the implications of this.
But yes, the behavior needs to change.
 
@CodyGray then I'm really sorry but it's 2020. We had 2 things happening this year, COVID and BLM.
 
Yeah. And if you think this rises anywhere close to the level of either of those, then I find that offensive.
 
@bad_coder Are you feeling bad about this because you feel you added to the problem?
 
@CodyGray no I don't, but it's the small things, the small gestures, the small written and unwritten rules that add up to create larger problems.
 
12:23 PM
@bad_coder one is a hoax, the other is a bunch of terrorists. Why are you guys talking about these in this room anyway?
 
Should we approve edits like this? stackoverflow.com/posts/65464319/revisions
 
@oguzismail Oof.
 
@oguzismail good humor and good music, to take my mind off things...
 
@oguzismail You were one of the approvers here
 
@oguzismail technically it's not the virus that kills you but the disproportionate retribution from your own organism
 
12:26 PM
@Dharman No, that edit was terrible. Of the 3 changes, 2 were absolutely wrong, and one was of dubious value.
 
I have a flag pending for that user already
 
@Dharman Yeah, clearly wasn't paying attention.
 
@JohnDvorak Yes, as with all infections, it's our own immune system that causes the problems. But the virus is still responsible.
 
the virus also doesn't do it for political reasons, only to ensure its survival
 
@Dharman Your edit there means I can't reject the acceptance of the original edit. Oh well.
 
12:30 PM
Sorry. I am not waiting for accidental encounters with mods. I made changes here but I see other approved edits by the same user.
 
@CodyGray I love you guys, I'm going to try and stay off chat for a few days. I need some time for myself.
 
@bad_coder No worries. It's the holiday; take a break!
 
@CodyGray thumbs up to the lone star state :)
 
Have fun :) Be happy :)
 
12:45 PM
Some day, we'll increase our state's Yelp rating.
 
@CodyGray Is that even desired?
 
@Braiam You mean because we're already filling up with people? Good point.
Although I like large cities...
 
@CodyGray More like, Yelp has history of being a pay to win review site.
 
Oh, I see.
I haven't really kept up with that kind of criticism.
 
1:52 PM
@Braiam Why should we care how the question came to be? Or do I misinterpret your statment?
 
@Turing85 Because the task, not the tool, defines the topic.
 
@Braiam Then I disagree with your statement.
 
To put it in perspective: if you are using a screwdriver to cook, are you cooking or engineering?
 
@Braiam You make a fool of yourself, that is what you are doing :)
5
 
@Turing85 Of course, that's why saying that the tool define the topic is foolish.
 
1:58 PM
@Braiam But to be a little bit serious: Iif you use a propane-based cooker and it is not working, do you ask on a cooking-related forum for advice?
 
@Turing85 No, I figure out what is not working before asking others.
 
@Braiam And if you need external help to fix the issue?
 
@Turing85 Until I don't know what the issue is, I don't know who to ask.
If it's because I have no gas, then I need to fill the canister and for that I need a pump. If it's because the tube is leaking, then I need a firefighter.
 
@Braiam And here's the problem: we don't (fully) know what we don't know. Going by your line of reasoning, asking on a cooking-related forum for advice (even if it is only to diagnoes the problem) on the propane-based cooker is perfectly legal, because one tries to cook.
 
@Turing85 No. It's not.
If you canister is empty they will be very mad because you could figure out that on your own.
 
2:04 PM
@Braiam But you yourself said: the task, not the tool, defines the topic.
 
@Turing85 But you didn't say a task, you said "Iif you use a propane-based cooker". That's a tool!
You didn't say what you were doing, just what you are using.
 
@Braiam Oh that's true. So it would be fine if I try to use a propane-based cooker to cook a meal?
 
@Turing85 And then again, I have to ask: what is the problem.
You aren't offering enough information to evaluate the issue. "Not working" isn't descriptive enough.
 
I presumed that you wanted the cooker to turn on and that it doesn't turn on, which can have many causes: from empty canister to you don't dialing in the stove.
 
2:08 PM
@Braiam Well this already implies that you think that it is not categorically off-topic, right?
 
@Turing85 No, it is unclear what you are asking.
If I had to rephrase my pecking order I would say unclear, off topic, unclear, opinion based, too broad, duplicate.
 
@Braiam Let me give you a concrete example instead of using an artificial one about cooking: Was this question rightfully closed?
 
Strangely.. that post in on my list of "Possibly wrongly closed posts" :)
 
@cigien Can you tell me what's the inside joke here? meta.stackoverflow.com/a/404039/13552470 10K rep
 
2:27 PM
@AnnZen It was based on some comments pointing out that @cigien's question was too wordy, where one commenter then wrote sizeof(a) / sizeof(a[0]). The comment seems to have been deleted since then.
 
I didn't understand that comment when it was posted. Maybe I just don't understand how sizeof(a) / sizeof(a[0]) will give the size of the array.
 
Assuming that a is the array, then the size of the array divided by the size of each element in the array gives the number of elements in the array.
 
@CodyGray except for, it may not always. sizeof(a) is not guarnteed to return the size of the array.
that's the reason why, in gegneral, the size of an array has to be passed as an addtional parameter to functions in C
 
And here I thought that a[0] was a going to return the value of the first element in the array.
 
That's because arrays readily decay to a pointer, and pointers don't encode the size. The actual type always encodes the size, though.
@Scratte It does. But sizeof that gives the size of the value of the first element in the array.
 
2:32 PM
@CodyGray That's over my head :)
 
@CodyGray ? So how does that become "each element"?
 
OK, so, arrays have a size (number of elements). But arrays readily decay (interconvert, but it's called "decay" because it loses information) to merely a pointer to their first element. And pointers have a size, but it's only the size of the pointer, not the size of the entire array.
@Scratte All elements in an array have the same size, at least in C.
 
@CodyGray Ah.. OK. That doesn't work very well in java.
 
@Scratte I suspect it's true in Java, too. Arrays probably just store references, and since references are essentially just pointers, all elements of an array do, in fact, have the same size.
 
But then sizeof(a) * sizeof(a[0]) would have yielded the same result, no?
 
2:35 PM
@Turing85 I don't know.
 
@CodyGray We use methods. And array.length is not the same as String.length(), so it's not going to work well. this is assuming the array has strings in them. We don't really take the size of primitives, as that doesn't even make any sense.
 
minikube seems to be just a local kubernetes, and kubernetes proper setup is something you need knowledge about system/network administrator.
 
@Scratte Um, how? Multiplying the size of the entire array by the size of an element? That would not be the same thing.
You cannot, in general, replace division with multiplication...
 
I don't see why it uses spring-boot tag, whatever you decide to do with the deployed system is irrelevant to the issue.
 
@CodyGray I'm assuming that the size of the first element is just 1.
 
2:38 PM
BTW, I wouldn't have checked if it weren't for how the Convention badge popped up in my notifications...
 
@Scratte But that assumption is often invalid. This is the size in bytes of that first element, divided by the size, in bytes, of the entire array.
 
Ah.. fair enough. Now.. I understand what sizeof does :D I assumed it took the size of the array as in the number of elements on it. So.. I was just more confused as I had to be :) So in this case I assumed it would have been 7 / 1, which made my brain go: Huh?!?
 
It says that something is missing from the line 20, and the previous step seems to be the one that generates that file. Either OP put something they shouldn't, that confuses the yalm-to-json converter or the generator is wrong.
So, it's either unclear or a bug on the software.
OP seems to believe to be a bug too github.com/kubernetes/minikube/issues/10022
 
@Scratte Yeah, I realized that was the probable source of the confusion shortly after pressing Enter. :-) Normally, you'd execute sizeof(x) on a variable, x, which would return the actual size, in bytes, occupied by that variable. So, on a typical machine, where int is a 32-bit integer, sizeof(x) would return 4.
 
2:54 PM
If you had rotated that string-instrument, you could have made it a nose :)
 
3:04 PM
@Scratte Hmm? How can a string instrument ever be a nose?
 
@CodyGray How can a head ever be invisible?
 
Oh, I think I found it.
 
@CodyGray The invisible head? 😃
 
Nah, that's still invisible.
Oh, haha. Making the balalaika into a nose has caused a vertical scrollbar to be added to my top nav bar. :-/
 
@CodyGray Ohh.. Since I don't have access to your account (fortunately for.. everyone :-), I just messed with you locally
 
3:19 PM
@Scratte Your changes are now live, though!
How'd you do that?!
 
Must be the magic of Christmas ;)
 
Does this comment qualify as unfriendly/unkind?
 
@Turing85 it does
 
@desertnaut thanks for clarification
 
and I kindly suggest you remove your reponse
 
3:23 PM
@desertnaut done
 
Is it possible for a Room Owner to move messages out of a room it it's frozen?
 
since we just closed this question as "general computing", what about the two relevant questions linked from it?
 
@desertnaut All deleted?
 
@Braiam no, only the one just closed; I am talking for these ^^
I'll confess it is not terribly clear to me where is the line with questions
 
@Turing85 are you on a mission to close all docker Questions?
 
3:37 PM
@Scratte not all, no
 
Hmm.. your first one is not a valid request due to the activity on it being more than 6 months old though.
Looking at the views on the posts, I'm a bit concerned with closing them. Since some users seem to go for deletion once a post is closed.
 
@Scratte there was a link from a just-closed (and subsequently deleted) question - see my comments above
 
Oh.. I see.
I'm not sure those are general computing though. They don't seem to be resource requests and docker is a programming tool, no? So why are they not on-topic?
 
@Scratte that depends on how you define "programming tool". I use the bimServer on my dayjob. Is it a programming tool?
 
As said, I am seldom sure about questions, so I absent
 
3:42 PM
Installing an IDE is on topic, so it getting phpMyAdmin to work. Or fixing the GUI inside an IDE.
 
@desertnaut Trying to say that all questions within a tag are off/on topic would lead to contradictions. Tags are products, topics are tasks ;)
 
@Scratte the IDE has the primary purpose of being used in development. phpMyAdmin is, in my opinion, off-topic since it is general computing software.
 
@Turing85 I don't agree with that. It's very much used by anyone that interacts with MySQL, which would be all developers. And no, that doesn't mean that fixing an issue with my Windows10 is on-topic. But apart from administrating the mySQL database, how exactly is phpMyAdmin used in a non-developer setting?
 
@Scratte I disagree. If I interact with mySQL, I normally use other tools. For the second point: yes, the main usue case for phpMyAdmin is server administration. I must confess, I am always in doubt whether it is general or professional software.
 
3:47 PM
@JeanneDark Nice. See the unpopular Answer, that makes a lot more sense.
@Turing85 I've never used phpMyAdmin outside a developer setting. If I as a user want to fetch data, I do not write a SQL and pop it into phpMyAdmin. Note that most IDEs can also help you to monitor your application when you're testing it.
 
@Scratte You as user may not. You as db admin probably use one tool or another to directly connect to the database.
@Scratte The key word here is primary purpose.
 
Anyway. The meta that was linked has two Answers on it. One is that those posts are fine, the other is: If you're trying to make something work where you have some pieces, it's fine. Trying to fix it, is fine too. One other example is: How do I make this type of environment.
Going back to your two requests here, they seem to be "I'm running this and I have this error, how do I fix it?", the other is "How do I load multiple environment variables?"
So.. I'm not seeing how they're violating the rules of Stack Overflow.
 
This, again, depends on how you define "*programming-related*". Is creating a CICD-pipeline programming related? If so: one can argue that creating docker-images (as artifacts) is programming-related. This would make the 1st question on-topic.

For the second question... stripped from its fluff, it is basically: "How do I run a script in docker?". That is a pure docker question. Since my opinion is that docker itself is either general or professional software, it is off-topic.
 
4:03 PM
@Turing85 Just because I use my IDE to write drafts to postcards to uncles, doesn't mean I can't post Questions about it here, though :) That a tool is being used in administration as well as development, doesn't make it an administration tool, but both. And hence also valid here.
 
@Scratte Try asking about writing your postcard in the IDE, and it will get closed as off-topic.
 
@Turing85 That would be a silly closure, because anyone that can close vote it, can also edit my Question. So if my post is "I'm trying to write a postcard draft to uncle Benny and the text keeps having these red squiggly lines under some words. How do I turn it off?", it could easy be edited into "How can I turn the squiggly red error markers off?"
 
@Scratte that's correct. Yet again, the IDE has the primary goal of being used for development. What is more: the post can be re-written such that it provides merit for all users of that IDE (who primarily are developers).
 
I can't find the meta post. Do you know where is the "Are answers explaining how other answers are wrong answers?" post?
 
@Turing85 Are you sure about that? It's been marketed as being a closed environment that's independent of platform, and so developers can share their docker with anyone, including testers and customers and hence avoid the "But it's working on my system"-problem.
 
4:09 PM
@AnnZen This one?
 
@AdrianMole Thank you!
 
And by being marketed as such, I see it as very much a developer's tool. It's now also being used to actually host running applications, which is great. But that doesn't mean it's no longer a programming tool.
 
@NathanOliver bin please chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/51241089#51241089 I forgot I answered it
 
@Scratte actually, support for docker will be removed from, e.g. k8s in 1.20, but that's a different story ;)
 
4:13 PM
So.. now it's more a programming tool? :D (That was a joke. I don't think it's more a programming tool just because it's less a tool for hosting)
 
@Scratte well THAT is an argument 😀 thanks
 
@πάνταῥεῖ hey
 
yolo
you only live once
 
sometimes even twice if you are James Bond
 
4:22 PM
Is 2020 treating you poorly?
I just finished my second book so I cannot complain... on the other hand I caught Corona... so... still quite lucky because it was very mild case... on the other hand... I passed out in the bathroom and banged my head... so... I really don't know whether things are going good or bad...
 
@DalijaPrasnikar Was this recently? Are you ok? If you feel nauseous, you should seek medical attention as soon as possible.
 
@DalijaPrasnikar Ouch! Did one have to do with the other?
 
@AnnZen The rule is that you can not make requests about posts which you answered (either explicitly or implicitly). The rule is not that you can't ask about things you're involved in.
 
@Scratte Yep... in combination with having low blood pressure in general
@code11 I spent a day in the ER... all is good I have hard head... this was about month ago...
 
@DalijaPrasnikar I'm glad to hear you recovered.
 
4:30 PM
Glad you're ok!
 
Basically the only serious thing was breaking my 1600.. days consecutive visited streak on SO
 
@DalijaPrasnikar Ahh.. I find that taking showers using colder water helps, though it's not as comfortable at first.
 
Tanks all
Thanks :)
It would help if I saw that coming... I just woke up on the floor... after hearing a loud bang... took me some time to realize that was my head...
7
 
If you're no longer able to get ill from corona and your head-injury doesn't make it harder for you to think, then I'd say it worked out at the end. Happy to hear you're fine now :)
 
From one site it was a relief because... now it is all in the past... :)
*side... the only thing I do.. I am making more typos than usual
 
4:39 PM
Hmm.. you think there's a connection?
 
@Scratte I have no idea...
 
@Turing85 Both links are to the same request.
2 messages moved to SOCVR /dev/null, by request
 
@DalijaPrasnikar Lets hope it'll pass, like when a cut heals.
 
@DalijaPrasnikar Well, it's different. The only person or thing which could treat me poorly, is me myself and I. An I don't ;-)
@DalijaPrasnikar Looks like I've got a lot of time to occupy myself in getting a deeper understanding of this: youtube.com/…
My current proceeding is to understand the 4 Simplex, I believe I'll halfway have grasped that, if I understand where the 5th tetrahedron comes from. After that, I'll go the next step up in dimensions towards the E8 in R8.
So you see: Useful things :)
 
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