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2:13 AM
I actually didn't see it coming myself. At least at the very beginning. "Let's be more welcoming to newbies!" - Okay, that sounds reasonable. Why not?
It became obvious once the backlash started happening.
The historic argument against splitting the site is that:
1. Newbies need experts to answer their questions. (I actually disagree with this. You don't need an expert. Anyone who knows it will do.)
2. If you separate newbies and experts, the newbie site becomes "the blind leading the blind". And there's nobody to moderate.
3. All the newbies to move to the expert site. Now we're back to square one.
Hard-splitting the site like that that requires "graduation" to access the "Advanced" section is going to put off a lot of the experts who are new to the sites. They probably aren't gonna want to be forced to see trash before than can interact with interesting stuff.
I've actually been wondering whether something more of a "soft-split" would work. SO remains one site. But you limit the visiblity between the different types of users and questions. IOW, hide all the newbie questions from the experts who don't want to see them. Questions that get miscategorized can be correct based on voting or some other mechanism.
How to implement this is harder - as you'd probably need some sort of AI/DL to categorize questions. I think it's going to be very difficult, but not necessary impossible. The inputs for such a DL network may require controversial things such as the OP's rep and past post history.
@smci By "he" are you referring to Martijn, or Tim Post? I had to google "KPI" which led to "Key Performance Indicator". Is this what you mean?
@smci By curation, I literally mean all moderation actions on a post that isn't spam or trolling. Including removal of questions that don't belong on SO.
To us, yes we want to get rid of all off-topic/too broad/VLQ off the site asap. But if you put yourself in the shoes of a help vampire, they don't care. All of those actions are "unwelcoming". They just want an answer.
 
@Mysticial Because the devil is in the details, and "make more welcoming" is a slogan not a specific set of concrete proposals; similarly to the difference between the vage word "Curation" and the specific SO implementation it has come to mean (which frankly is overly concerned with closing, and not enough with showcasing the positive value of closing-as-dupe)...
 
Moderation of spam and trolling, I guess can also be called curation. But I want to put those in separate category since the poster is malicious and is expecting those to be moderated. Whereas your typical help vampire just wants an answer - even if spoonfed.
 
...Also I'm not arguing in favor of splitting the site, but I'm saying "splitting is better than breaking" given the current existential dilemma management have brought upon their own heads with the implementation of "make more welcoming" skewed in favor of less filtering on new-user behavior, both good and bad.
 
@smci That's my current position as well. It seems like the least of the evils.
 
@Mysticial Personally I always thought "curation" meant organizing good, on-topic, useful things, and highlighting the better ones. Not "janitorial", or "moderating spam and abuse". But on SO it seems every innocuous word acquires an idiosyncratic SO jargon meaning (which is in itself a subtle form of not-welcoming).
@Mysticial Yes "your typical help vampire just wants an answer - even if spoonfed" - but surely the site's existential issue right now (post-"make more welcoming") is how to incentivize/modify new-user behavior away from that, and if all else fails punish and ultimately suspend and ban them.
 
2:26 AM
@smci So here's where other factors come into play. Those "typical help vampires", once they get "moderated" enough times, they get frustrated, mad, and what happens next? They start talking about it externally. IOW, they start disparaging the site - thus contributing to the negative public perception of the site.
 
To restate the obvious, FGITW / rephounding is the flipside of help-vampires and too-welcoming, so opening the floodgates to the latter inevitably stoked the former. We are powerless to stop it. And SO's KPIs seem to actively promote it. Feels like a case-study for news.ycombinator.com: "How SO management intentionally destroyed the world's best programming Q&A site by 'improving' it to death"
 
IOW, I no longer see a way to moderate the bad (but non-malicious) content that doesn't contribute to negativity.
@smci This is where I come in with a potentially unpopular opinion. Based on the above, you can't get rid of help vampires without hurting your image. What if we just throw all the "repwhores" at them and leave them to feed each other.
The more I think about it, the less evil it seems.
 
@Mysticial So what? Twitter+FB are not reality, not everything on Twitter+FB is true or relevant. SO simply needed to have a loud voice on Twitter+FB patiently explaining and pushing back on stuff.
@Mysticial (Sorry gotta sign off next couple of hours)
 
2:41 AM
@smci I agree it's not reality. But it still matters because it still contributes to the information intake. Regardless, the damage has already been done. It's true that outsiders are scared of the site. I'm tempted to think that nothing short of a rebranding will fix it. If the direction is to start a new site for beginners, that's the opportunity to do that.
I'd need to take a look at how Mathematics and MathOverflow work out. That might be precisely the kind of basic/advanced split and it's seems to have worked out.
Let's suppose the solution is to let the "help vampires" and "repwhores" keep each other happy. There's two obvious way to achieve that:
1. Split the site as discussed and give them a home to coexist.
2. Turn the current site into that home. This is precisely what my #2 is at the opening of this discussion. And is one of the reasons why I started suspecting that SE's move towards that direction may have been intentional.
 

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