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11:17 AM
Right, you are indeed suffering from confirmation bias. You have formed a hypothesis and have seen nothing but confirmation for that hypothesis.
I know 1. is true:
> SE has insufficient man-power to implement new features
but perhaps I've spoken to more ex-SE employees than most, so perhaps that's not as clear without those contacts.
I also know that the growth curve and attrition is a problem that is hurting the company.
but as a moderator I know that a very large component of the image problem that is plagueing SO is coming from the "why are you so dumb to even ask this stupid question!* crowd. Don't underestimate the effect that crowd is having. I see it in my daughter when she talks about being too scared to post a question on SO for fear of such a response. It's like the fear of being the victim of a terrorist attack: highly unlikely, driving in a car is far more risky, but it's the idea of the horror of it.
So I see all the work towards making things welcoming as countering that story. Nothing has been done to undermine moderation tools. Sure, not enough is done to strengthen them either, but as a moderator I see the work that is being done to strengthen our tools.
We just got a major upgrade to the moderator flag board, see meta.stackexchange.com/questions/330171/…
The company has been working on AI classification of comments, and very recently started adding the results as auto-flags for us moderators to tackle. Early days still, but this is starting to look really effective at weeding out abusive language where not enough people are around to flag it.
I also know that the Data Science tidbits being shared every month are just the tip of the iceberg of the much, much deeper work that is done to try to understand a wider picture, and to explore many different avenues on how people perceive loads of connected things. That's hard to summarise and the results of sharing the 'public friendly' versions has been mixed, up to people getting up in arms over the use of emojis, of all things
But to me, all this means that the company is investing in trying to understand their user base much better and to figure out ways to move forward.
which brings me to a next point: IF they were to contemplate as fundamental shift as you believe they were to do, they'd know that they'd alienate a very sizeable chunk of their real value: the experts that create the value of the site.
I'm personally convinced that that's not going to happen. Not when they did finally build the (much better) question page filtering that was started by a now-ex-employee that left the company because he was never given the resources to finish it properly.
That's the other thing I've seen happen: Jeff Atwood leaving left the company directionless when it comes to focused product leadership, for a long time.
That cost the company community goodwill. A lot.
 
11:48 AM
I know that privately, Shog is a bit worn out having been the main point man as CM, effectively caught in a sort of no-mans land in between the community and the company, where he is telling the company that there is this loss of goodwill happening. And that's the tone you see in his post you quoted.
And that loss of goodwill is now fuelling the conspiracy theories, that Shog has worn himself out on to try and prevent, and he's at the same time despairing at how much the community is making it really really hard for people that were hired as data scientists and such to stick their heads above the Meta parapet. Those poor sods have no idea what's hitting them.
Which sort of brings me to my next point:
The community on Meta is now a toxic mess of distrust and conspiracy theories running amok.
And I get it, the company has been rudderless for a time. But I see the changes, the new CMs getting stuck in (some with really excellent backgrounds). The new tooling getting rolled out. The fast responses to seemingly trivial advertisement bug reports. All the investments in data scientists and user interviews and regular direct comms with us mods.
But the community running amok and making up their own theories without any evidence and shouting it from the rooftops on every single data scientist post? That's got to stop. It's making things so much harder, as we are actively telling those employees that we don't value their work, that we are all cooks that filter their intentions through a distorted filter.
What happens next is that they either stop telling us about their work, or quit to avoid the stress, and so rob that company of smart talent, talent that can tell them what can and can't work to improve matters. We really don't want that.
So please. Stop with the sprouting of hypothesis as fact.
 
 
3 hours later…
3:05 PM
Thanks for the taking the time to read and respond. I do have some followup comments that I will post later.
 
 
7 hours later…
10:32 PM
Thanks for your response. In an effort to diffuse the tension a bit, I'm going to start with a summary.
You make some very strong points and new information that I wasn't aware of. You've convinced me to back off my original position that SE has intentionally chosen #2. But I still believe that SE is headed in the direction of #2 - perhaps unintended. The end result is still the same though.
> Right, you are indeed suffering from confirmation bias. You have formed a hypothesis and have seen nothing but confirmation for that hypothesis.
I don't follow your logic here. Had I found any falsifying evidence, we wouldn't be here in the first place. Likewise, you haven't shown any falsifying evidence that stands ground.
> So I see all the work towards making things welcoming as countering that story.
Countering which story? That SE is headed for #2? The welcoming movement doesn't counter that. If anything, it's support of it.
> Nothing has been done to undermine moderation tools. Sure, not enough is done to strengthen them either, but as a moderator I see the work that is being done to strengthen our tools.
I do recall saying that SE hasn't done much to improve moderation tools. But I don't recall that I've ever said that SE was undermining the current moderation tools. If I did, it was probably unintentional or interpreted in a way I hadn't intended. So if it's the latter, I apologize.
> The company has been working on AI classification of comments, and very recently started adding the results as auto-flags for us moderators to tackle. Early days still, but this is starting to look really effective at weeding out abusive language where not enough people are around to flag it.
Two things I want to point out here:
One is that it highlights a disconnect between mods and non-mods users. There's a lot of development effort to improving *moderator* tools for catching the worst of offences. Which is great. But to those on the outside, it looks like nothing is happening because we don't have access to these tools.

In a non-moderator shoes, the frustrating things are stuff like the close vote queue or the inability to eliminate a bad question. SE hasn't done much to address those areas. So when we see them doing other things which seem less pressing, everybody goes up in arms.
The second point I want to point out is that these particular improvements actually help both philosophies. So it's a win-win situation to implement it. It's an improvement to moderation. But it's also part of the welcoming movement since it's aimed at eliminating bad comments. So doing these things does not mean that SE is picking one philosophy over the other.
> which brings me to a next point: If they were to contemplate as fundamental shift as you believe they were to do, they'd know that they'd alienate a very sizeable chunk of their real value: the experts that create the value of the site.
This argument gets thrown around a lot on meta. But it assumes that experts are still valuable. This was certainly the case early in SO's history. But I'm not sure it still is.

SO has reached a level of content saturation. Most of the common questions for the common languages have already been asked and answered. SE has burned through 50+ years of technology in about ~5 years. Now, legitimately new content is mostly for new technology - which runs only in real-time.
Experts built the site the same way a development contractor builds a house. Without the contractor, there would be no house. But once the house has been built, their job is done.
Now, that doesn't mean that experts aren't needed anymore. There's still a trickle of legitimately new content at the real-time rate of new technologies. But these are miniscule compared to what has been built. It's easy to see a possibility where all the old experts (who love the old SO philosophy) leave and get replaced with a new generation of experts who prefer the new SO over the old one.
> I'm personally convinced that that's not going to happen.
I'm going to turn the tables a bit. What has convinced you of this? It is just a gut-feeling? Or some inside knowledge that we don't know? IOW, I'm asking the same questions that you asked me.
Looping back to my summary, my position has shifted to this:
SE isn't *intentionally* picking #2 because they know it drives away experts. But in their attempt to find a solution that avoids the drawbacks of #1 and #2, they are effectively moving in the direction of #2 anyway.

For example, the "welcoming movement" was meant to solve the negativity problem. But it also alienated a bunch of the old-timer experts. Whether they saw this coming I don't know.
To be clear, I'm actually not taking a side on whether SE should or shouldn't continue down this path. Because TBH, both choices suck. Maybe the only real alternative is to split or partition the site as Jeff Atwood had mentioned.
> Not when they did finally build the (much better) question page filtering that was started by a now-ex-employee that left the company because he was never given the resources to finish it properly.
Maybe I'm missing something here. But what does the filtering page have anything to do with the argument that SO is not changing its fundamentals?

But this (as well as your later comments) highlights a point that I wasn't aware of and perhaps much of meta isn't aware of either. That is - the attrition rate of SE employees.
> But the community running amok and making up their own theories without any evidence and shouting it from the rooftops on every single data scientist post? That's got to stop. It's making things so much harder, as we are actively telling those employees that we don't value their work, that we are all cooks that filter their intentions through a distorted filter.
I assume this is aimed at meta in general instead of just me because I actually offered a significant amount of my time to stick round and provide that evidence. (whether you agree with it is a separate thing)
> What happens next is that they either stop telling us about their work, or quit to avoid the stress, and so rob that company of smart talent, talent that can tell them what can and can't work to improve matters. We really don't want that.
This rubbed the wrong way when I first read it because it already feels like SE has stopped telling us about their work. But point taken.
> I know that privately, Shog is a bit worn out having been the main point man as CM, effectively caught in a sort of no-mans land in between the community and the company, where he is telling the company that there is this loss of goodwill happening. And that's the tone you see in his post you quoted.
Half of what's said from this point down I already knew, and the other half is new to me. I'm not sure if I or the rest of meta is supposed to be aware of it already. Or perhaps it's something you've picked up from the internal channels as a moderator.
Regardless, this is the first time I've seen either a moderator or an SE staff member show this kind of transparency of the situation. To be honest, this is what we need more of.
Given this, it's easier to understand and empathize with the situation.
 
10:48 PM
@Mysticial Anybody with half a brain saw the negative consequence coming, SO mgmt would have too, so why didn't they just partition the site into "New-User" and "Advanced" sections? Most of us have learned the hard way to not bother with new users with < 120 rep and say < 3 questions, unless they are smart, respectful and communicate clearly and concisely (yes, nulling out whether English is their native language)...
... This would have somewhat reduced and kicked the problem down the road to the interface when the small(ish) subset of "New Users" who graduate to "Advanced" section (whatever the chosen threshold was)... but a smaller number of people and also who have learned the basics of SO culture (MCVE, state clear on-topic answerable question, etc).
@Mysticial He didn't make his posts out of a sudden belated fit of transparency at management level, he did because he's utterly tired with compensating by being beaten up daily for the lack of transparency KPI-driven chaos and dysfunction up at management level. Employees can't compensate for broken management and destructive KPIs. How long before this ends up on news.ycombinator.com or reddit again?
 
11:04 PM
@Mysticial Well, what is meant by "Curation"? It seems to have a narrow definition on SO. Btw, there's a huge difference between closing as "too broad"/VLQ vs closing-as-dupe (where people like me carefully research an exact or near dupe, which is valuable information). Daily now I spend precious energy on researching target answers to close the flood of dupes (which I have zero rep motivation to do) only to get givemetehcodez-type users complaining to me that they didn't get spoonfed with...
...an exact line-by-line solution using their particular variable names, dataframe column names, etc. I simply don't see a way to be welcoming to people with attitudes like that, they should change their attitude or leave. Rarely do I get thanked for providing dupe targets. Really the goodwill of the small unsung army of users closing as dupes are being massively overlooked.
 

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