last day (17 days later) » 

9:49 PM
Not promising I’m online much tonight though, it’s very late here in the UK
 
Same, I'm also busy atm. And I need to go through meta to dig it all back out.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:22 PM
Let's start on some shared ground which I'm pretty sure most would agree on:
Claim: SO is having a problem of growth.
Evidence: Traffic numbers have leveled off after 2012.
159
A: Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late?

Hans Passant Of late the tendency is to simply close or put on hold most questions, or downvote them Yes, that's what we are supposed to do with poor questions. or make fun of the writing or the style. No, that's what the community used to do, back before the "Summer of Love" campaign started to ou...

Possible Causes:
1. People don't join SO because it has a terrible public perception.
Source: numerous external sources, here's an internal one:
@Servy Going to stop you there. Our surveys overwhelmingly indicate that people don't want to make accounts and ask questions because they feel intimidated by bullish stuff just like that answer and I can't believe the amount of effort people are putting into defending something we all agree could be at least interpreted as hostile or over the top. — Tim Post ♦ Jun 28 at 16:06
2. New users don't stay because of all the negativity. (downvotes, close votes, "unwelcoming comments")
Source: Various sources online as well as my own colleagues.
Claim: SE's solution is to shed its negative perception.
Evidence: The entire "welcoming" movement.
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Now I will make the more controversial claims:
Claim: Moderation and curation causes negativity.
Reasoning: Moderation/curating involves downvoting/closing/deleting posts. New users want their question answered. They don't like it when it gets "moderated" even if it's for a good reason.
Observation: Moderation tools are lacking.
Evidence: Numerous meta posts. Example:
61
A: Should Stack Overflow users enforce a mandate or let the site evolve?

MakotoThis summer, Shog9 posted an answer which resonated with me. Water doesn't care what you want. No amount of pleading or nicely-worded signs are going to convince water to wet your parched plants when it wants to tear out a gully and carry away your precious topsoil. You can dam it, drain it, ...

Possible Causes:
1. SE has insufficient man-power to implement new features.
2. Better curation may hurt growth because it also increases negativity and unwelcomingness.
 
The Conflict:
Veteran (and old SO) Philosphy:
1. Focus on quality.
2. Aggressively weed out poor content by means of moderation to keep the site clean.
3. By keeping SO filled with only good quality stuff, people will come to it. (including search engines)
Hypothesized (current) SE Philoposhy:
1. Need to improve growth.
2. The negativity that comes with curation is working against growth by driving away new users.
You can't have both. These philosophies are conflicting.
SE's Dilemma:
1. Continue the old philosophy that made SO what it is.
2. Refocus SO to cater towards new users.
Pros/Cons of #1:
- No longer works to increase growth. (I have some theories on why that are related to content saturation which I can discuss if you're interested. But that's somewhat tangent to the this discussion.)
- It keeps the veteran users (as well as meta) happy.
- It alienates new users because of all the negativity that's comes with the curation.
Pros/Cons of #2:
- It alienates the veteran users because it changes the philosophy of the site that everybody has come to love.
- It may be the only way to shed the site's negativity and perception to increase growth.
This is where Jeff Atwood's comment hits the nail:
If the solution to "beginners are not welcome" ends up being "experts are not welcome" then it is game over. I resisted it for years, too, but a separate, beginner focused stack overflow (with beginner oriented rules, and special beginner tooling) feels inevitable to me at this point if the site wants to survive. — Jeff Atwood Jun 26 at 8:34
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Which leads me to the final point:
Hypothesis: SE has chosen to #2.
But because it's not what the meta crowd wants to hear, they don't want to tell us upfront.
Circumstantial Evidence:
1. These comments confirm that meta's interests are in conflict with SE's current interests:
@Servy A few hundred people on meta don't get to set all the rules for tens of thousands of people who don't want to participate here, mainly because of how abrasive this place can be. You're arguing a consensus that exists plainly in your perception, and I can see why you'd defend that, but you're in an echo chamber that's much smaller than you might realize. — Tim Post ♦ Jun 28 at 16:08
Whoa whoa whoa whoa hold on a second. We don't get to set the rules for our own community? Snark aside, what is the implication of this?? — Makoto Jun 28 at 16:09
@Makoto I said all the rules. Ten people can't rule over thousands, and when the goals of a few are clearly not aligned with the needs of the majority, we have to step in. And again, I want to point out, we agree the answer is overly-hyperbolic. Also, the rules are what the UX ultimately enforces and .. we get to have a say in that too. You can't discount our needs to grow the community, especially when we see it constricting quickly, as major stakeholders here. — Tim Post ♦ Jun 28 at 16:11
2. I made a passive-aggressive, but strong accusation here:
Hypothesis: SE no longer values its veteran users. We have already produced all the content that matters. Now they are focused on fixing their image by appeasing the vampires and withholding the tools needed for site curation. (Site curation and appeasing new users are inherently conflicting goals.) At this point, it seems that us veteran users contribute negatively to the company's chosen direction because: 1) We harass new users by curating and being "unwelcoming" instead of answering. 2) We complain endlessly on meta. SE wants vampire feeders, not site curators. — Mysticial Jun 21 at 21:49
Given how how upvoted this became, and the potential to spread incorrect rumors, I expected that some SE employee would at least try refute it in some way or at least call me crazy or something. That didn't happen. Thus, confirmation by silence.
3. Instead, we got this comment from Shog whom I respect very much:
I've been reading and re-reading this for the past two days, composing replies in my head and discarding them... But the truth is, it's not my place to answer this sort of thing anymore, and I can't really think of anything to say that'd carry any weight anyway. Mostly, I just want to thank you for all the time you've given over the years, for all the thought and energy you've put into this; it's folks like you who've made this place good, and whether you stay or go or something in between... It's been a pleasure; thank you. — Shog9 ♦ Jun 22 at 21:48
This basically translates to a farewell letter as if he's expecting most of us (veteran users) to leave.
 
I'm happy to hear your thoughts on this and which of these arguments or chain-of-reasoning falls apart. But as I as see it right now, the writing is on the wall.
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Oh I missed one more:
@TimPost Since you've finally admitted what a bunch of us have already been suspecting for a long time, I think it's probably better to come clean with this with an official blog post that details SE's direction, why it is doing it, and why it is worth alienating the entire meta community (which I do agree is an echo chamber). It's better to just give everyone the red pill now rather than to continue this endless frustration and lack of transparancy. This will go a long way to re-earning all of our respect. — Mysticial Jun 28 at 16:22
@Mysticial Sara Chipps is working on a blog post for just that. We haven't been avoiding it or not wanting to say certain things, in fact I think the problem is having these conversations in too many places and it just gets fragmented and ordered incorrectly as people try to parse it. That's .. a major motivation for moving primary communication back to the blog, while encouraging any follow ups to be asked individually on whatever meta someone wants to use. — Tim Post ♦ Jun 28 at 16:36
Tim's response is basically a confirmation of my comment.
 

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