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2:00 PM
@DaveRandom the 450Mbps Wireless N Access Point TL-WA901ND you first recommended.
 
@Fabor well it would appear I am a numpty because that doesn't have a switch on it
sorry :-/
you can either live with wifi on the xbox or buy any old cheapo LAN switch
 
@DaveRandom lol cool. Wasn't important, just making sure I was not being a numpty :P
 
I don't know how I managed to do that
 
is the opposite of an integer an outteger?
7
 
heh
 
2:05 PM
No it's just a teger, the "in" is a negation
 
float / sink?
 
@Gordon german jokes are wurst
 
!!urban teger
 
whatchoo talkin bout willis
 
So, are we just gonna ignore that there's not really a contrary to integer? :D
 
2:07 PM
we should ask @NikiC. @NikiC knows all these things.
also, he can help with a patch for the RFC to get the outteger included in PHP
and the teger
 
what's the opposite of RFC? and the opposite of PHP?
 
PHP Hypertext Postprocessor obviously
 
Hypo
 
Homo?
 
PHP Hyposound Postcontracessor
 
2:25 PM
Have any of you ever went to court or small claims? Just curious, watching judge judy and some of these are ridiculous
Some of the plaintiffs or defendants are like 18 or 19 years old.
 
@DaveRandom quora.com/…
 
I did
 
Was it a tough experience?
 
it depends
(on: country, case, your role in the whole thing etc)
 
Your experience. Or you international? lol
 
2:27 PM
well I was twice. once as a witness and another one as a victim
I can't say it was "tough" (compared to the stories before) - but it wasn't comfortable either
 
I jut tried with ; and intellij gives me a syntax error. probably also works in phpstorm. mischief here I come
 
Gotcha.
 
but "comfortable" also derives from the personality. Some really love to be involved (feeling own importance / just like the process etc)
 
What's an inspiring way to tell a junior developer, "Hey, can you concentrate on being smarter?"
 
@Danack "hey, you wanna work with @tereško instead?"
 
Anonymous
2:40 PM
Don't, you'll scare him!
 
"you mozefuka, stop the bullshiet and start to think"!
 
Anonymous
@Danack context?
 
@Gordon thinking about that, sends chills down my spine
 
I'd like to work with @tereško .. he's a very cordial person after all
 
Anonymous
I actually think it'd be a laugh
 
2:41 PM
nah
you ask him when it's about "get that thing done" (:
 
Simple task - go through the site and replace 'let' with 'var' so the site works on Safari on IOS9. They did some of it, then they got stuck, and couldn't find where the 'let' was in the code. They just hadn't noticed which page they were on, and thought they were on a different page, so couldn't see where the 'let' was coming from.
Just looking at the source code, would have revealed where the let was....
 
Anonymous
have you had to tell him/her about this before?
 
although if they were even smarter - then they would ask why the task smells
 
they keep getting stuck on trivial stuff, yes.
 
2:43 PM
@Danack That basically boils down to explaining how to use the IDE
 
Anonymous
ruffle your beard above their keyboard and hope the magic dust works
 
and / or how to debug
 
/me would have passed the JS though babel
if there is code, that has let in it, it will not be the only "newish" feature in there
 
^ my thought exactly
 
So how do you explain that to someone?
 
2:45 PM
that's why they should've at least asked "are you sure?" (:
but then again, being a moron is not to be confused with being inexperienced. you can help the latest but you can't cure the former
 
@Danack it's not something you can explain, because it is not a result of a "mental exercise", but of "acquired experience". Said jr. would have to just learn a lot.
if a developer does not know, that there are tools for transpiling newer JS to a version compatible with older JS, then he will not know about that solution.
and there is no way for him to magically pull it out of his ass
 
@tereško it's appropriate for most of it to not be transpiled. It's embedding data into a page that needs some info from PHP to be there. And as it's a one off chunk of code - that doesn't get updated ......and it would have taken me less than 20 minutes to change the lets to var....didn't think it was worth extracting to a separate file.
 
shouting (while cathartic and all) will not change it
 
I would say: try to work with your team not against them
 
@AlmaDo he is working against Apple
 
2:49 PM
@tereško he and his team (fxd)
 
I would love to just see some of you program for a day, and just ask random questions to snuff up on skill a little.
 
@Danack I think the proper approach would be to teach him how to use debug tools
 
Never had a senior.
 
^ and your job is ..?
 
Freelancer web dev.
PHP, Wordpress, Laravel, Mysql , just picked up random habits throughout fixing code and reading the internets. Learned a lot of stuff the hard way.
 
2:51 PM
just find a job as a senior dev and that would be it :p
 
My job is more to write code. The company isn't in a position to have multiple members of staff that aren't profitable right now.
 
^ That's pretty much how it's been.
 
eh..
 
As in - if I spent as much time as the guys on the team need helping, the project would be cancelled as it will take too long to do.
 
I have like 5 companies sending me clients, i make my living.
 
2:53 PM
I spend at least 40% of my time on all these plannings, meetings, processes etc
 
I get the nice title of "Senior web dev" when they talk about me. which for me is just.. "we only have one guy"
 
yup I know. I'm a "lead" of a team of 5 people only (that includes myself lol)
 
Lol exactly.
 
@Danack he does not sound like a Jr., but more like an intern
 
yeah....beginning to think that.
 
2:55 PM
but is he formally a jr or?
 
probably just "a developer"
 
I am a intern and got offered a job yesterday
 
making tea?
 
^
 
hoho it reminds me.. I should go for a coffee :p
 
2:56 PM
Nope as a developer
I am 17
 
developing tea?
 
i feel superior to my other colleges
since i am young
 
nice meme
 
where's that simpsons meme
backing into bushes
 
l0l
 
2:57 PM
... and the trololo song?
 
@Tomm that will wear off
 
I know
 
I envy him
 
every 5 years the amount of total developers doubles
 
I want to be 17 again
 
2:57 PM
but just feels nice
walking in here as a 17 year old to my own office etc
 
@AlmaDo he's formally a junior. And I don't expect much but a lot of the time I think "Me doing the work myself is less time than having them do the work, and me just providing a small amount of help". Not because the task is outside of what they should be able to do, but because they get stuck on trivial things.
 
^ that's the main issue these days.
One of my clients/boss companies, wants to pay me to train people what I think needs to be taught.
I don't have the patience. Teach for 12 hours or do in 15 mins
 
@Danack I don't know. I never was a junior outside of time when I was doing a part-time job for my university diploma..
 
so ... wheresoever you work , a least half of people have less than 5 years of experience (source: youtube.com/watch?v=ecIWPzGEbFc)
 
@tereško kind of. that's why I decided to switch jobs..
 
2:59 PM
@AlmaDo what's your job title?
 
@Darius now? tech lead..
 
@Danack try giving him the more menial tasks or the ones, that are not on the "critical path" (as in - ones taht do not affect work of someone else)
 
As tech lead, how'd you look for the job? As a "consultant" or promoted in-company?
 
@Tomm I have never actually worked anywhere with "private offices"
 
we dont have private offices
 
3:00 PM
space is at premium here
 
@tereško todays task is the most menial task possible.....it's literally "look at the error in the console. Find that line of code. Replace the 'let' with 'var'."
 
its still my office though
 
every thing else they could be working on is way more difficult.
 
@tereško Thus the not enough chairs issue /musical chairs convo earlier this week?
 
@Danack get a different junior?
 
3:01 PM
@Danack I am also a bit confused. I remember myself being accepted on a job as a developer for the first time. I barely knew PHP syntax. But I freaking studied it outside working hours, I've read a lot I googled a lot (and google was waaay worse those times)
I don't know why people are so ignorant and don't even try to improve
but that's not helping you :\ sorry
 
^ +1
 
@tereško not a bad plan. or possibly replace two 'juniors' with someone not so junior.
 
that's an option too
 
If it's no secret, @Danack , how much do juniors get paid /hr ?
 
@Danack yeah. the caveat is though that the attitude is usually transferred. so unless you will personally interview the guy on a not jr position - it can be the same thing for a higher price
 
3:03 PM
@AlmaDo when I started working as a developer (at 21, I think) I already had 5-6 year of experience in programming and about 2 years in php
 
@Darius you mean how did I find a new job or what?
 
... then again, my job interview went strange
 
Yeah, as tech lead.
How'd you make the transition.
 
@tereško well I started at 19 just after university and I had half a year of experience with C
(:
@Darius they just found me and offered a higher title. then we talked to each other. then I got hired.. that's pretty much it
 
@AlmaDo You finished university at 19?
 
3:05 PM
@NikiC ah yes.. I thought I told this
 
I finished at 24.. lucky ass, the University system here is crap, delays and shortages of classes.
 
or may be it was long ago when I told it..
 
@AlmaDo damn
 
@NikiC that's nothing too "good" as I see it now. There are pro and cons
 
my interview went like this: 5 minutes serious talk, then about 20min competing with their team lead, who can come up with most bizarre spam bot protection for a form
 
3:07 PM
gn guys im going home
 
@tereško this time I had only 7 minutes of tech interview out of total ~6 hours :\
 
... followed by questions: "so, can you start tomorrow?"
 
and those 7 minutes the guy was trying to troll me around rest / rpc and he obviously just read some smart blog posts so he had to fuck off when I trolled him back..
@tereško pretty much it..
like "we would like to hire you .. what's your notification period"
 
heh
 
now I think I will fail utterly since my title is actually an it architect who's actually a manager
but I should try at least
 
3:09 PM
ouch
 
plus they offered me ~30% more money..
would be stupid to decline
 
my title is this "developer", whose actually architect
 
It feels great to find out that head of the IT department wants you to give up your development skills and become a "point and click" specialist
 
@tereško ^ it was recently same for me until I just demanded the title
 
Did the title get you more money?
 
3:10 PM
that was also the case. not much though
 
Yeah but more titles mean more responsibilities, go too high and we dont write code anymore
I need to find a sweet spot
 
it's like "ooh.. we can raise only for 4-5k a year".. cool. and these guys were like "we give you 20+k more just come to us!"
 
Teresko's youtube video makes me sad, about developers multiplying with each year.. Just last week I went to get some lunch and saw 5 hipster developers. Annoyed knowing the websites they build are bought Wordpress templates sold for 3-5k a pop.
 
Someone writes the template code
 
Not them, lol.
 
3:12 PM
Well yes
 
They just know how to change some CSS and drag and drop using visual composer.
I know because I've worked with 3, on different occasions. blew my mind
 
Mhm, thing have been streamlined
Thats why all of the news sites look the same
 
@Darius if I had an option between two jobs: one with wordpress and other without (but with lower salary), I would still stay away from wordpress
 
as a plus - I honestly never worked with any of php frameworks.. or frameworks at all
only symfony components but that's all
 
Wordpress is a framework
 
3:14 PM
so words like wordpress / cakephp / laravel are foreign to me
 
@tereško as long as it's a livable wage, same. But if wordpress is 2-3x the wage, wordpress it is.
 
for 3x I might have to think about it
 
I guess, going to work hating yourself makes the days pass slowly
Were currently trying to go full couod service instead of developing things, if I cant create something in O365 Im going to change jobs.
 
so the deal is - as long as you have a brain you don't need any frameworks. don't try to let anyone to do any work for you if you want that job to be done properly
 
3:16 PM
Meh, but you shouldnt reinvent the wheel either
 
If working for your own company, build your own framework, teach it to others you hire.
 
@UselessIntern that I didn't. the part about brain might have something to do with it
 
Through standardization the IT industry has become more flexible and integrated
 
If you work for somebody else, making for somebody else, use premade framework.
 
you have to agree on an approach - that's true. but frameworks aren't of this necessary category
plus since I am interviewing guys I hire - I tend to hire those who also have brains in there
so we're mostly on same page..
 
3:18 PM
how do you asses the brain? give them a task or just meaningful convo
or toss around terms and see if they know.
 
I assess the brain be checking whether it's in the ass or not
 
Don't reinvent the what again? I am sure happy I don't have to fit giant boulders to my car or bike.
 
(:
 
Yes, not that "why are manhole square?" question
 
Just ask them which animes they like/watch. Or, if they watch animes at all.
 
3:19 PM
@UselessIntern I actually got asked that once
 
No way
 
Oo.
 
@tereško bah its meaningless
 
@SaitamaSama no I don't ask about anime (:
 
meh, not a good interviewee then :B
 
3:20 PM
honestly I don't have a silver bullet. you just need some experience in interviewing people
tech stuff is important sure - but part about the attitude, willingness to progress/learn, cooperate etc - you just need to talk with the guy
 
@tereško Thats not reinventing that learning what exists, understanding it, then improving upon it. Each wheel in that picture is a new revision.
 
and even with all this I wouldn't call myself even close to being an expert in hiring engineers
 
@AlmaDo Yeah, like I only know PHP because that's why my current job wanted and I knew none but I was willing to learn. If I leave Ill learn whatever you need, but I use tabs instead of spaces like a heathen :p
 
> reinvent (ˌriːɪnˈvɛnt)
vb (tr)
1. to replace (a product, etc) with an entirely new version
 
@UselessIntern how many legs does the sheep have if you cal it's tail a leg? 4. Because calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one
 
3:23 PM
@UselessIntern you seem to have the delusion, that frameworks make code somehow better. It's false
 
actually I'm all up for reinvent
it happens in Vegas after all
it was a cool experience (:
 
@tereško No its not a silver bullet, but it can be a good starting point.
 
no, it is not
 
If they just want a basic blog site why code that from scratch?
 
Aug 1 at 14:20, by tereško
> framework /ˈfrāmˌwərk/, n.: a product with the business logic removed, but all of the assumptions left in
@UselessIntern yes
because I would not be insane enough to use wordpress
 
3:26 PM
if they truly want a basic blog post site they install wordpress and they don't come to you. The fact they did come to you means they think they want a basic blog site but in reality that's not so
 
hell, if I want a basic blog, I would use HTML and add something like Disqus for "comments"
 
and after they come to you and call for a "little change" - you will curse yourself for installing worpress
also, not starting from scratch has nothing to do with using/not using framework. use components in right circumstances and you don't have to start from scratch while you also don't use a framework
 
Idk, once you get pretty good at knowing all the BS associated with wordpress, you get pretty quick at finding its issues and solve them.
until a wild website with 46 plugins shows up
 
if you're good at knowing a BS - that makes you good at.. BS but not proper things
 
3:29 PM
^ is it acceptable to fart in an open space office?
 
> If you have any doubts, then ask HR
hahahahahhaha
 
nailed it (:
 
:p
 
Lol!
 
They should just merge workplace and ips
 
3:30 PM
@PeeHaa store reading that site
 
Mostly the same stupid questions I see on there
 
and stop spreading it
 
@tereško Even after all this time it still amazes me sometimes :P
 
I have yet to find anyone with a nut allergy. Is it really that bad?
 
yes
 
Anonymous
3:33 PM
@PeeHaa fucking jesus christ
 
you tell them: I either eat nuts or I fart. What's better? Chances are you'll be allowed to eat nuts
 
Then fart anyway
 
3:46 PM
I have such a laid-back job but sometimes I wonder if I should change jobs to improve my skills.
 
Smart not hard..
 
Yeah but I get the same types of problems here, it's getting quite boring heh. And I know my skills are weak but I dont need to know more. Well it is what it is.
 
work long enough to make money for retirement, then find a hobby.
 
why am I so bad in using domdocument? :(
 
and retire
 
3:50 PM
Christ, it's kicking off over at the Montserrat google font lol
 
Why are theyre an ungodly number of fonts anyways? I can barely tell the difference between them. Only wingdings stands out.
 
They barely differ, but when you get the right one, you see a big difference in overall layout
 
Segmentation fault in zend_string_release – #75502
 
True, there is a font for varies screen sizes, print, and other applications. It just mind blowing how many there are. Adobe sells 121 different families and each family has 15 to over 100 fonts within them.
 
It just sucks to buy something only to have it look like something 1,000,000 other things have out there. You don't gain much
Google have enough imo
 
4:03 PM
people are up in arms because the font was updated yesterday as a major release, but google only publish the latest version, so the font release just "broke" a load of sites using it.
The google dev kicking about is just saying that's how their service works, and if you don't like it then download the font and serve it yourself. Also that they actively decided to not implement version pinning because they only want to serve & cache the most up-to-date version.
 
Ouch, and that is why I dont like relying on a service, they have you by the balls in situations like this
It's a nasty game of mother my I
 
@UselessIntern easy decisions - tough life. Tough decisions - easy life
 
hmm ... it feels like I am re-implementing angular :(
 
Yup, relying on a service, no bueno.
 
when I was before the choice: javascript or java (no, not because name similarity, but because ) I sincerely said I will do java
 
4:07 PM
eh JS is not all taht bad
it's just suffering from same issues as PHP
 
@AlmaDo I wonder what will happen here, they're transitioning to relying on a service for all of their IT needs, especially Oracle.
 
@tereško I don't think it's bad
what I don't like is how it's being pushed everywhere and for everything
even php - no matter how many downsides it has - isn't promoted to be used for every possible thing (ok, there is a project to do UI with it but that's a gimmick)
 
> if you don't like it then download the font and serve it yourself.
@Sean honestly, I wouldn't quite go as far as saying, 'anyone who doesn't do that, deserves their site to go down'......but it's close.
new GoogleFontsPlugin({
        fonts: [
            { family: "Crimson Text", variants: [ "400", "600", "700"] },
            { family: "Oswald", variants: [ "300", "400", "500", "600", "700"] }
        ],
        formats: [ "eot", "woff", "woff2", "ttf", "svg" ],
        filename: 'css/fonts.css',
        path: "font/",
    }),
If you're using webpack, that's all the config needed to pull down and build the fonts and the required css.
 
4:38 PM
EDI format just seems kinda weird to me.
 
Perhaps you seem weird to EDI format? Ever think of that?
 
lol
 
Anonymous
okay okay ... have it your way — samayo 9 mins ago
 
-burger king
 
hehe
 
4:52 PM
Anyone worked with Applicability Statement 2 (AS2)?
Maybe @kelunik ^ ?
 
No, sorry.
 
@DaveRandom The time came, but I didn't know chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/39936504#39936504
 
5:10 PM
I wonder what the smallest RFC was/is.
 
Anonymous
that's interesting..
 
Anonymous
ping if you find the answer :)
 
5:34 PM
@Fabor In terms of..?
 
Time to read mostly
 
6:04 PM
@Danack Aye, reading through the crap in that issue was making me annoyed. It shouldn't kill a site, it might just slightly mess up a layout (godknows how). The main thing the release changed was the weighting; people were blowing up about how it's ruined everything.
 
./configure: line 2550: syntax error near unexpected token `config.nice' – #75503
 
RIP
Oh wait... Better go check my ethereum :P
This was mobile people I believe
 
Not even their first ballsup
 
7:44 PM
evenin
 
So @tereško want to improve !!learnphp
 
I am actually about to continue working
I just need to figure out which is the lowest encryption I can use for SSH, so that I can mount a remote filesystem and forward Xorg
 
\o
 
Wes
hello
so formal
i mean HELLO BI*CHES
i need to rewatch stranger things already
i have no idea what's going on this season
what the hell happened to bob
poor bob :(
 
7:57 PM
no need to rewatch, let me just spoil all of it now for everyone (=
 
Wes
me?
bob could be anyone
 
heh no, I mean let me spoil it
 
Wes
:B
 
=p
The upsides down becomes downsides up
 
Wes
lol
 
8:25 PM
@Wes I guess you don't mean me? :-P
 
Wes
bob you are alive!!! :B
i'm liking this season less so far
 
ok ... work setup configured
 
Wes
not sure what's going on.. they've been rushing into things and neglecting the plot
 
no back in the coal mines of Mt. JavaScript
 
Wes
bah
 
8:29 PM
So, converting xml to json with js is such pain that I actually started using DOMParser and getElementsBySomething methods
 
Wes
how is that a pain
 
Have you ever tried?
 
Wes
yes.
 
Blnow, have you ever tried with xml that actually makes full use of attributes?
 
javascript actually sucks, when you have to deal with xml (or html, btw)
 
Wes
8:31 PM
{'tagName': ..., 'attributes': ..., 'childNodes': ...}
 
Yes
@Wes that's not what most parsers return
You wrote your own?
 
Wes
what parser?
 
From xml to json
 
Wes
domdocument, loop over elements and make an array out of them, then convert the array to json
no need to write parsers :B
 
Ok, wait
look at that xml. now tell me how you would approach working with that
 
8:35 PM
Like this.
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier That's not bad is it?
 
now, imagine that, what you see there, has to be parsed, and the content from its various elements, is to be used to dynamically access elements in other xml documents
@PeeHaa when I stop worrying about json, it gets better
 
:)
 
Wes
8:38 PM
function elm(DOMElement $element){
    $result = [];
    $result["tagName"] = $element->nodeName;
    $result["attributes"] = [];
    $result["childNodes"] = [];
    foreach($element->childNodes as $childNode){
        $result["childNodes"][] = elm($childNode);
    }
    foreach($element->attributes as $attribute){
        $result["attributes"][$attribute->nodeName] = $attribute->nodeValue;
    }
    return $result;
}
 
maybe it's just because I hate xml
 
Wes
ftr, i didn' try it. but something like that
so yeah the attribute is a bit stupid lol
 
I think the thing I mean is, it is actually much more of a pain to map over an array of elements, checking each one to see if they have the right tag name, than to use native dom functions @Wes
 
Wes
and you need to run it on domdocument->documentElement
 
(also you forget the javascript part of it ;)
 
Wes
8:47 PM
well, xml to json can be represented in one way only and that is it
 
Wes
json doesn't have attributes and child nodes
 
if you have multiple inputs in a form elem, you could have an "input" key with an array of nodes in it
 
Wes
just one group of sub nodes, so you need to differentiate
 
which is what most parsers do presently
you seem to overlook that an element can have multiple child nodes that share, or not, a specific tag name
so with your solution, if I want all the elements of a node, nested three levels deep, that have the Input name, it's a nightmare
 
Wes
8:49 PM
i didn't say it's pretty
 
Just regex the crap out of it. Job done.
 
:) DOMParser.getElementsByTagName === much better
is all I am saying
@Fabor riiiiiiiiite ;)
 
Wes
simplicity === much better
 
yes, which is why it's much better
 
Wes
umpf
just leave the original schema and work on that, no?
 
8:50 PM
getting the elemetns by tag name, is much simpler than iterating over all elements of the array all the time to find a single thing
 
Wes
i wouldn't try to be clever
@FélixGagnon-Grenier abstract the thing away
it's not that you will have to write it a million times
 
.. we can't understand each other again ;)
 
Wes
:B
 
9:08 PM
Laravel, something that doesn't make sense, all tutorials always say assign a role to a user. Well.. that seems inefficient.. Wouldn't it make more sense to only create roles for administrators and keep roles off of users so the role matching database table is lighter?
 

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