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sbi
5:00 PM
@Ell You got me wrong. It doesn't matter whether it's a good bargain. If you have only £10/month to spend, then why do you have fixed costs at £10/month?
Or, if that's a good bargain, and you shouldn't be made living without a phone, why do you only have £10/month?
Something doesn't quite add up here.
 
Ell
because my parents dont give me more :L and I can't control spending
 
Get a job in software development.
 
Ell
Its okay I'm writing a game that will make me millions ;)
 
sbi
@Ell (If all your money goes into your phone, the only control you could have is to not to have a phone.) Anyway, this leaves the question why your parents aren't giving you more. Don't they have more to spare? Do they disapprove of you spending more than £10/month? Do they disapprove of the phone? Do they want you to earn your own money? Do they even know you have a phone? And do they know what that costs? Is it a communication error?
 
Ell
They have more :L but I have never asked for more - so I don't really know. I suppose it's because maybe I should earn it myself?
 
sbi
5:04 PM
@Ell May I ask how old you are?
 
Ell
I am 16 years of age :)
 
sbi
@Ell Oh. So you're still in school?
 
Ell
Yeah :) just doing exams next week - after then i move to 6th form :)
 
sbi
@Ell Is it common that students at your age earn some money while going to school? Do your parents approve of you still studying?
 
@sbi wait what? I thought almost all parents approved of studying at age 16
 
Ell
5:06 PM
It is not uncommon for students to have a job, but most don't. And yes my parents are encouraging me to continue studying
actually for the age group below me it is obligatory to continue higher education until 18 years old
 
sbi
@MooingDuck This is a very international forum and I do not assume others to have the same social and cultural background as I have.
 
Ell
I am from the UK if it helps
brb!
 
it's common for children in the UK at the age of 16-17 to get a small part-time job
I had one
 
I would get a job if it'd earn more than the minimum of €3/h.
There is a software company that I can make an iOS app for for at least €1600 but they have to get a request from a client first.
 
@classdaknok_t more than €3/h? that's not much
 
Ell
5:15 PM
back
@DeadMG what did you do?
 
@Ell I worked on a checkout in Homebase
 
Ell
ah kk. It sounds stupid but do they teach you what to do?
 
@DeadMG A customer-facing job?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yep.
@Ell Ehhhh... In theory.
but the reality is that they scheduled all my training for school days, which was dumb of them, and I missed a bunch of it that they never replaced
never issued me a full uniform, etc
 
@Ell I've never recieved more than an hour of training for any job I've had
 
Ell
5:20 PM
@DeadMG It's just I'm not a people person, nor can I make coffee or tea - so It doesn't give me many options :L
@MooingDuck really? do you have a job currently?
 
@Ell yes I do
 
Ell
what is it?
 
@Ell You think @DeadMG is a people person (I hope he doesn't take offence on this, none is intended)?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I don't
it's well known here that I absolutely hate my fellow man
 
Ell
@RMartinhoFernandes I don't, but I can't talk or interact with anyone in the public :L or anyone I don't know. I'm rather shy until I'm friends with someone
 
5:21 PM
but the truth is that it doesn't matter that much
 
Ell
but it's different on the internet :L
 
to the customers, you're just a nameless faceless drone, they interact with you for thirty seconds when you ask them for money
 
@DeadMG Yeah, it's not like you're there to socialize.
You're there to play a role a robot could.
 
it's not a real human interaction of any kind
 
sbi
Ok, @Ell, from what I gathered, here is how I (a parent of a girl close to your age) see this.
1) You should to talk to your parents in order to find out whether those £10/month are an absolute limit or just their unfounded assumptions about what you would need.
2) If it's the former, then that would imply they'd either disapprove of you spending more or expect you to earn some money on your own, and you will have to find out which of the two applies, in order to be able to deal with the situation.
3) If it's the latter, you and your parents will have to sit down and find out what way of life they'd expect you to be able to lead from your pocket money. Should that include a phone? (And if so, what monthly fee would be acceptable?) Should that include you buying birthday presents for your friends? (And if not, who's going to buy them? And if they won't, how are you supposed to be able to have friends?)
4) You will have to learn to keep a budget. That is hard, and takes a lot of practice, and you will likely need some help in the beginning. But you will have to learn to do that. Ask them to help you. They could help by slowly transfering more and more financial responisbility to you. Start out from typical pocket money expenses, then extend to school material expenses, clothes, shoes etc., until you manage all of your money on your own. Plan a few years for that.
However, my gut feeling (again, from what little I heard from you, so take this with a pot of salt) is that it's mostly a problem of you and your parents not having communicated about the issue in a long time. For a 16yo old boy in the UK, £2.50/week seems a rather tight budget.
 
5:23 PM
@sbi Common phone contracts in the UK run £20-£30 a month.
so if you simply have a phone with high use, you can burn through that easily
 
@sbi my parents paid for my phone, but other than that I had no income. I had to beg until age 16, at which point I had to get a job.
 
sbi
@DeadMG If you do not have that money, then you must not have such a contract, and thus cannot use your phone that much. It's as simple as that.
 
€10 is enough for me to use my phone for three months.
 
Ell
But I am a teenager and send thousands of texts a month :P
 
@Ell stop
 
5:24 PM
@Ell Get a plan with free texts?
 
sbi
@Ell You can do this if you have the money. If you haven't, you can't.
 
Ell
@RMartinhoFernandes I am on one now
 
@sbi Very true. I'm perfectly up for "learn to live on a budget". I'm merely providing a comparison.
 
Ell
I know - I will just have to go cold turkey I think
and find a job after the exams
 
0
Q: strange breakpoint in c++, visual studio draws flower around her

OopsUserI have no idea what i am asking about, i tried to google the issue but i found nothing because i didn't knew what to search for exactly. I have some class in c++ , it's doesn't do anything special, while i'm in run time i'm trying to put a breakpoint in one of it's functions and it does the foll...

intersting title
 
5:25 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Lol, same for me.
 
@Ell Is that still expensive these days?
 
Ell
@StackedCrooked depends on what you deem as expensive - unlimited internet & texts plus 250 minutes I think is very reasonable. But I can't afford it :L
 
@Ell In my opinion, £20-30 a month is not unreasonable. But, of course, it depends on what financial situation your parents are in, etc.
 
@DeadMG judging by the numbers you guys are tossing around, I need to talk to my phone provider
 
5:28 PM
@MooingDuck You think what they're mentioning is cheap?
 
@MooingDuck Well, it also depends on the handset, how long the contract is for, etc.
 
Ell
@DeadMG our family is "too poor to be rich but too rich to be poor" - almost middle class or something. I have lots of luxuries at home - which may be one reason that I aren't getting mroe than £10 a month
 
@RMartinhoFernandes very
 
Ell
its a sim only rolling contract
 
@Ell That's exactly what I've got, as well.
 
5:29 PM
@MooingDuck I guess Portugal runs verier cheap communications.
 
And people are constantly complaining.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Or depends on how much you use it. That kind of contract is virtually unlimited use. You can, of course, get much cheaper if you use it less.
 
Ell
...not advertising... just informing :P
 
@DeadMG I have friends with similar plans and it doesn't cost that much.
 
5:30 PM
I've started reading this book. The title is a little misleading in that it's not really about getting rich, but more about intelligent money management (and likely getting somewhat rich in the long term). So far I'm liking it.
 
@Ell My family is too rich for me to qualify for government support for my university course, but poor enough that paying it ourselves is still a big deal.
of course, my parents are always pointing out how much they pay for me to attend university, which doesn't really help matters for me
 
sbi
@MooingDuck You know, I can kind of understand the POV leading to that. Still, I disapprove of it. I would want my kids to slowly grow into managing their own budget. For that to happen, they have to start with little money and little responsibility, and build up from there. Not giving your kids anything and then supposing them to be able to manage their own income resembles teaching them swimming by throwing them into the river.
 
That works!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes according to my bills, I'm paying £107, with unlimited voice/text and data. I need a much smaller plan, I don't need all that :/
 
Ell
@DeadMG yeah :/ university fees arent too nice :P
 
5:31 PM
@Ell The tuition fees aren't a big deal.
 
Ell
@MooingDuck jesus christ £107 a month!?
@DeadMG the living costs then?
 
holy shit, £107 a month? WTF are you on?
 
@Ell yes. It's a long story, but I need to lower it
 
@Ell Yeah.
 
@MooingDuck Gosh, €100+ a month on a phone bill?
 
5:32 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes :(
 
Who sold you that? A guy with a hood and knife?
 
basically, the government pays all the tuition fees in a nice loan and it's all super easy
 
Anyway, time to go.
Bye.
 
Ell
@RMartinhoFernandes bye bye
 
regardless of how rich your parents are
but the maintenance loan won't even cover the rent at university halls
for example
 
5:33 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes well officially it's ~€40 for a basic plan + ~€10 for unlimited texts, + ~€10 for unlimited data, + fees.
 
so I assure you that getting a job is good for a lot more than just paying the phone bill, it's good for having many savings when you go to university
 
sbi
@Ell I had 120mins + weekend flat + 40SMS, plus Internet flat (which reverts to GPRS if I overuse it) for €30/month. I had to up it to 80SMS for another €5, because I was sending about 60SMS. I consider this luxury, and my kids have to live with way less than that.
 
when I got a job I blew a bunch of it on computer parts, but was damn happy I saved the rest to pay for living at uni
 
Ell
@DeadMG :/ that does suck. My father has been looking with my brother at his student loan (under the new scheme) and basically, unless he earns >60k, he is taxed until he is 30
effectively, the new student loan scheme is a "student tax" until it gets written off
 
fortunately, I'm still under the terms of the previous student loan incarnation
 
Ell
5:35 PM
yeah
 
but if I were you, I would worry about maintenance, not tuition
fact about tuition: you can't blow your tuition loan on a new GPU, but the same is not true of your maintenance loan
 
> Auto-correct can not accurately guess what I'm turtle to Spain.
 
Ell
when you say maintenence, what do you mean? as in food, rend, electricity, etc.?
 
yeah
you get two separate loans, tuition and maintenance
tuition goes right to the university every time and you never see it
so it's always paid and you can't do anything stupid with it
 
sbi
@Ell Now we know your name. Did you intent this?
 
5:36 PM
but maintenance
you can blow it on alcohol
and have nothing left for rent
or if you run out, you can rack up massive credit card debt
 
Ell
@sbi how do you know my name? o.O
 
or hell, some people rack up massive credit card debt anyway
that kind of thing is seriously killer for people's finances
 
Ell
yeah. Good job I don't drink!
 
@Ell The giffgaff link has your name in it.
 
sbi
@Ell From the post of yours mine refers to.
 
5:38 PM
@Ell You don't yet. But when at university... things are different.
 
Ell
oops... that was not intentional :P
 
if you don't drink at university, then you're some kind of freak, and the entire system is set up exclusively for the purpose of getting students wasted
 
Ell
it makes me sad that I am so responsible. There are lots of people my age taking drugs/drinking - I don't see the need
 
my experience of the first year was "Exam 9am, flatmates come back wasted 3am and make racket for hours"
 
sbi
@DeadMG That's what tends to happen if you teach your kids managing their own money by throwing them in and expect them to learn to swim right away.
 
5:39 PM
@sbi I know. My father works in the financial industry and was quick to teach me not to do things like that.
I have a credit card but basically never used it
 
@Ell Keep it up. Ignore DeadMG's BS. You're not a "freak" if you don't drink.
 
Cheapest plan I can find in my area is 31 eruo/mo, which is just 450 minutes/mo, no data, no texts
 
@SamDeHaan No, that's the way you get treated by others. It's not my personal POV. I don't drink either.
 
Ell
@SamDeHaan I am at my school - its quite depressing. I want to fit in, but also respect my liver. But almost everybody drinks
oh yeah and people smoke too - literally what is the point in starting to smoke? what possible benefit does it bring?
 
@Ell Nothing. You're just burning money.
 
Ell
5:40 PM
and our school is an "academy" - I dread to think what happens at a "normal" school
 
@DeadMG Different continent, but I was able to find loads of people that didn't care if I drank or not.
 
@SamDeHaan Unfortunately, Ell is in the same country as me :P
 
Since when do people say "Hurrah", isn't that a German word? What happened to "Hooray"?
 
@FredOverflow For as long as I can remember.
 
@DeadMG Fair enough, I can only speak for my own experiences.
 
5:43 PM
My Firefox spell check doesn't like it.
 
sbi
@Ell I think it's Ok to have a beer once in a while, but binge drinking (as seems to be so common in the UK) and smoking I disapprove of.
 
@sbi I don't think I participated here during my first year. But it was, literally, nothing but the Union and our hall encouraging us to go out and binge every single night for weeks on end.
 
Ell
I feel like I'm missing the bandwagon by not drinking at all, and the drugs and the sex (although this is involuntary celebacy ;)) and the smoking. And being good at school. Being responsible is for pussies it seems
 
@sbi How do you have a beer without drinking?
 
@Ell Nah. You're better off that way.
 
Ell
5:44 PM
@FredOverflow absorb the alcohol through your eye
@DeadMG but its no fun :P
 
drinking just costs money and makes you act stupid
4
it's not fun
 
sbi
@FredOverflow I wrote binge drinking.
 
@sbi I must be blind :(
probably been looking at too much alcohol already
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Had too much methylene?
 
@DeadMG You need to get out more.
 
5:46 PM
@DeadMG You can have too much of almost everything.
 
but if you don't have too much, then what's the point? you don't feel any different to normal, and it's just a more expensive Coke
 
Coke is always unhealthy, no matter how much you drink.
How dangerous is it to split an NTFS partition in two with gparted?
 
I enjoy the taste of beer. Especially IPAs.
 
I'm still stunned at the price differences in phone plans. Looking at sbi's plan, closest my company provides is 450mins + 40SMS+ 75MBdata = $58 (€44). However, theres about 55% extra in fees, so sbi's plan would cost me ~€68.62/mo. And he's paying €30/mo.
 
5:49 PM
@ScarletAmaranth India Pale Ale.
 
sbi
@MooingDuck €35 w/ 80SMS. It's €30 w/ 40SMS
 
@MooingDuck My phone and Internet also costs 30€ per month. And I don't even have a phone :)
 
Ell
I can't decide if I should start drinking or not
 
@Ell You mean today, or in general?
 
Ell
seriously if you are at a party and everyone but a guy sitting in the corner is drinking, hes gonna look like a douche right?
I mean in general - at parties etc.
my friends are trying to get me to because it "loosens you up" & stuff.
 
sbi
5:51 PM
@Ell IMO there's no need to not to drink at all, but at 16 there's absolutely no harm in not forcing the issue, and not drinking at all is certainly a lot better than drinking to much. As for sex: early sex is overrated. First find yourself a good relationship, which might take time. (If it's urgent, you can always wank. :)) About tobacco and (other) drugs: There's no need at all.
 
I know a lot of people who don't drink any alcohol and are very funny and entertaining at parties.
 
sbi
@Ell Would you want to be loosened up?
 
@sbi Parenthood level: sbi. "You can always wank."
 
@Ell I just hold an open beer to shut my friends up. Near the end of the party I just pass it off to someone else to drink.
 
@Ell The people who tend to want you 'loosened up' in my experience have been the people who want to bring you down to the level they understand of drunken stupidity.
 
5:53 PM
@Ell How old are you, if I may ask? :)
 
sbi
@ScarletAmaranth Well, he's a teenage boy. What do you expect?
 
Ell
@StackedCrooked 16
@sbi yeah I'm still depressed since the last time you councelled me :L
 
@ScarletAmaranth Well, it's good advice.
 
Ell
so sex wont happen for years
 
sbi
@Ell What? I counseled you? What about?
 
5:54 PM
@sbi I can't quite imagine having awkward talks with my future kids. I guess I'm a still too much of a youngin' myself :)
 
woah, I just discovered this page:
 
Ell
@sbi yeah :L I will try and find the transcript (how far back does it go?) basically I'm still suffering from a break up that was 6 months ago :P
 
Ell
I really loved her >.< (as much as a teenager can love)
 
@Mysticial magic
 
5:55 PM
@StackedCrooked Japanese is impossible to understand unless you're listening to someone who talks very slowly so that you can understand ^^
 
@Ell 16 is the legal drinking age here in Belgium. When I was that age never had any interest in alcohol. Perhaps a 3 glasses of wine on Christmas eve and feeling sleepy after that.
 
@Mysticial Read the block of text on the right side of the page :)
 
sbi
@Ell Ah, Ok. I think I remember that. Sorry for having forgotten it.
 
Ell
@sbi no problem, I don't expect you to remember! I'm just an internet stranger after all :L
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked Three glasses of wine is a lot when you're not used to it.
 
5:56 PM
@SamDeHaan haha, I didn't see that. lol
 
@ScarletAmaranth VLC and MPlayer allow you to slow down the playback speed (with corrected pitch).
 
Ell
I still need to see a psychiatrist but don't have the balls to say anything :L
 
@StackedCrooked You're a genius! :)
 
Ell
It will blow over, eventually
 
@sbi Also with food. Spread over the evening. But yeah, it was enough to make me feel funny in the head.
 
sbi
5:58 PM
@Ell IYAM: Have a taste of some(!) alcohol, preferably at home or with some friend who does not want you to drink in order to "loosen up". See whether you could acquire a taste for the stuff. If not, don't worry. I learned to like beer when I was 26. (And I learned to drink wine ~22.) Until then, I just thought it tastes terrible. That seems to have done no harm to me.
 
@ScarletAmaranth I first tried it when I wanted to understand Yuki Kajiura when she was addressing the audience. Didn't understand much of it even with slowdown :(
 
sbi
@Mysticial I think there was a lot of discussion sparked by that on meta. You might want to search for it.
@Ell To your parents?
 
@sbi Yeah... that ranking seems very random to me...
 
Ell
@sbi yeah :/
 
@sbi I learned to like beer around age 26 as well :D However, lately any alcohol gives me bad heartburn :(
 
Ell
6:00 PM
I am not close to my parents - they are the last people I would go to with a problem
 
@sbi I started drinking at 16. But I started liking beer (and I mean real beer) somewhere around 20. Now I regularly raid microbreweries. As for wine, I only recently started drinking some. It's slowly sinking in.
 
I like Beaujolais.
 
It's partially manual as well.
 
@Ell If you're kind of depressed then I'd recommend you to not start drinking. You'll have two problems then.
 
The numbers on the greatest hits page aren't completely sorted, and there's a couple of very low score questions on the front page.
 
Ell
6:04 PM
@StackedCrooked orr maybe drinking will help? :D
 
@Ell unlikely
 
Ell
but possible :L
 
@Ell Perhaps possible, but alcohol is a downer, not an upper. Not that either are likely to help you out of a serious slump.
 
Yeah the questions on greatest hits are really weird.
 
Ell
but feeling left out of everyone doesn't help either :L
 
6:08 PM
@SamDeHaan So what drugs would you propose? ;)
 
Ell
I would never smoke but I can understand why other people do drugs but I wouldn't myself
 
Chocolate and coffee work for me ;)
 
@Ell Alcohol is not a good medication against depression. It might make you feel better in the short term, but you'll need higher dosage over time. It's really the worst thing you can do.
 
@FredOverflow MMORPGs. :P
 
6 hours ago, by sehe
@FredOverflow Slightly enhanced source: http://ideone.com/i3gnn
@FredOverflow did my version of the harddisk bench work?
 
6:12 PM
Dilemma. Playing, coding. Playing, coding.
 
Code while playing ?
 
It's like coding while chatting.
 
Ell
code with yourself while playing
 
Not possible.
 
Ell
or something :P
 
6:14 PM
Which games have you been playing lately?
 
Secret of Mana
 
Ell
minecraft, tf2, LoL. I'm going to play Exile :P
 
Kingdom of Loathing.
 
I'm still waiting for my Paper Mario Thousand Year Door copy.
 
Ell
I play trade empires - the best single player game of all time! Would be awesome online
 
6:17 PM
@sehe those are massive blocks! Why not 8k?
 
sbi
@Ell No. Attempting to sooth psychological pain with any drug will always make it worse in the long run.
 
And naturally I'm waiting for diablo after which i will cease to exist for my surrounding world.
 
@CatPlusPlus KoL! I haven't played in years.
 
@ScarletAmaranth here here
 
@MooingDuck :D ?
 
6:19 PM
Best game evar.
 
@SamDeHaan I remembered it just a few days ago when I learned my fiance lived near a city called "moxee"
 
Someone fancy a cup of chess ?
 
@MooingDuck Hah, of course.
 
You're not supposed to drink chess, silly.
 
I think I ended up quitting because I tried to do a BM all-cat run. Made me /rage pretty fast.
IIRC, I've still got a Dallas Dynasty Falcon Crest shield sitting on one of my toons... was totally going to pwn the basement.
 
sbi
6:22 PM
@Ell, I have just found our previous discussion. Interesting to read in retrospective. Do you feel better now than you did back then?
 
@sehe Can't test the benchmark at the moment, my hard drives are doing actual work right now ;)
 
hmm, I deleted some files, then immediately pressed CTRL+Z. Windows should respect the CTRL+Z :(
oh, it did. Nevermind
they're now at the bottom of the list of files
Windows win
 
Ell
@sbi honestly not really - things haven't got much better. I stopped the "bad habit" until last week :/ I still get really depressed :S
your talk did help though
 
sbi
@Ell So my advice stays the same: Get help about that ASAP. At 16, you might still be able to overcome that habit. If you wait another 5 years to tackle it, it might end up staying with you for the rest of your life. I am very serious about this. You a lot less chances to get out of this yourself than if you have help. And you need to get out of it.
 
Ell
I don't know who to ask about help :( I don't want help - i feel like I'm just being a wuss by being so emotional
 
6:27 PM
@Ell If it helps to see another person agree, being emotional doesn't make you a 'wuss'. And that kind of habit is definitely something you want to have support with. That's hard to beat on your own.
 
Ell
its just that when I'm with certain people I can be really happy, but when im not with them
@sbi I am sorry for your situation - what I'm going through must look like nothing compared to what you feel.
and I feel like I'm making such a big deal out of what in my eyes is nothing
 
that's the thing about being young
 
C++ lounge, your daily dose of randomness! :)
 
sbi
@Ell That's not the way to look at this. How do you know I haven't been feeling a unproportionally worse than you did?
 
you know you shouldn't but you do anyway
 
Ell
6:31 PM
@sbi sorry can you rephrase that? What do you mean by unproportionally worrse?
 
sbi
@Ell You might think your situation is easier than mine, and I should thus feel better. But what if my situation was only twice as bad as yours, but I felt a hundred times as bad? Then I am the wuss, and you are the though one.
 
Ell
Oh I see what you mean. Well if your situation is worse then i think you should be able to feel as many times as worse as you like because the actual situation is worse
People can make a big deal out of things and it doesn't really bother me too much (I'm not talking your situation here - obviously that isn't something a 16 year old would deal with) but when I make a deal out of soemthing I feel like I'm bothering everyone
 
@Ell it's the internet, if we were bothered, we'd mock you, or yell, or leave
 
sbi
@Ell Well, but how do you measure how bad a psychologically hard situation is compared to some other situation? And how do you measure how bad someone feels, compared to someone else?
 
Ell
yeah - but IRL too. I don't want to bother too many people with my troubles, why should they care?
 
6:37 PM
what is good SVG editor?
 
@CheersandhthAlf For simple stuff I simply edit the code with a text editor.
 
Ell
@sbi well I guess you can't really measure how bad someone feels
 
@StackedCrooked but for more complicated stuff, like, some objects and arrows and things?
 
@Ell I think it's measurable. Clinically and maybe even physically.
 
Ell
but "bad" for one person could be "horrific" for another?
 
6:39 PM
@CheersandhthAlf I don't know, sorry :/
 
sbi
@Ell So the result of that is that you cannot compare mental hardships. There's no way to reliably say "this is worse than that, so this guy should feel less bad than that guy", and there's no way to check whether those two guys stick to that.
 
i'm trying InkScape but apparently it does not export transparent background (or background color at all)
 
sbi
@Ell Yes, it could, and sometimes that's obvious. But when it isn't obvious, you cannot tell which is worse, and you cannot say whether how bad someone feels about something is proportional to what that someone had to go through.
So all you can do is to accept the level of feeling bad someone experiences and try to help them, never mind whether you could deal with what that person had to live through better or worse.
 
Ell
I have just found out today at about half 3 today that one of my classmates is also self harming, I think I will tell him what you have told me
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked No, it's not.
 
Ell
6:42 PM
and hopefully that will help. Maybe me giving him advice will help me take the advice
 
sbi
@Ell Does he know you do that, too?
 
Ell
No he doesn't
 
@Ell give him a job opportunity (because he may feel imprisoned)
 
sbi
@Ell Why don't you two try to help each other getting help? Talking to your parents might be a lot easier when they hear you're not the only one.
 
@sbi You sound very confident. Can you elaborate? Perhaps provide a source?
 
sbi
6:43 PM
@StackedCrooked You say it's possible, so you should provide an example of how it could be done.
 
Damn, MCA is dead.
 
Ell
@sbi maybe - I asked him if he wanted me to tell anyone and he said no - should I not tell anyone?
 
sbi
@Ell That's the thing: you don't want to tell (someone who knows you), and neither does he want to tell anyone. That's all understandable, but you won't get help unless you tell someone.
 
@StackedCrooked sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110913172623.htm says they might have found a way to measure thermal pain (81% of the time)
 
Ell
@sbi yeah :/ I would feel like I had betrayed him if I told his parent but also I want him to have help. But also, his family does not have a good background - his mother isn't the best of mothers and he does not talk to his father. So I don't know if his mother is the best person to tell?
 
6:46 PM
@sbi I say that I think it's possible. You're making the stronger statement. What I do know is that emotion is determined by the concentration of certain neurotransmitters (dopamine, serotonine) in synapses. I'm not sure if they can measure that with today's technology, but it should be.
 
@StackedCrooked the article I linked heavily implies that nobody knows how or if it can be done. It implies that most scientists didn't think it could be.
 
Good morning.
 
Also psychiatrist have a predetermined set of questions to determine the severity of a depression. This gives an indication of how "deep" a person is, and the likelyhood of suicide etc..
 
sbi
@MooingDuck When I was 10-15, I kept reading those books about a Dakota boy. I loved them. They tried to become tough by exercising their ability to stand pain. One thing they did was putting pebbles into their hands which they had removed from the fire. A boy was good if he could stand those pebbles to burn into his hands a certain depth without having pain showing on his face. Now, do they suffer less than we do, or do they suffer the same, but are better at enduring. And is there a difference?
@Ell You definitely shouldn't talk to his parents without his consent! What I was suggesting was that you two help each other to work up the courage to talk each to his parents so you can get help.
 
Ell
Oh I see, yeah that makes sense
 
sbi
6:51 PM
@Ell If he has little chance of being actually helped by talking to his parents, then maybe your parents can help him getting help, too?
 
@sbi I'm merely saying that we can't objective measure it, and it's debatable if some types of pain will ever be objectively measurable.
 
sbi
@MooingDuck Yeah. And what I was saying was that I think the question whether someone suffers more than someone else (and whether this correlates to how bad was whatever made that person suffer) is a philosophical question, not a medical one.
 
@sbi I misunderstood
 
sbi
Mar 2 at 14:53, by sbi
The point is, antidepressants and other medicines are almost as badly understood as ECT. Nobody understands exactly how they help. Some of them are given based on what's officially called a "paradox reaction." (Like Ritalin actually being an upper, but given to ADHD kids will get them down. Nobody understands why.) And there's thousands(!) of studies what antidepressants do to you when you are not depressive, and it's still non-conclusive.
Basically, nothing of this is well understood.
 
@ScarletAmaranth Lounge<C++>: where people say "good morning" in the evening!
 
6:57 PM
Fun with timezones.
 
Timezones with fun.
 
@sbi I agree with that. I was mainly opposed to the idea that emotion can inherently not be measured. Because that would make emotion something supernatural. Which I don't think it is.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked So what do you think emotion is?
 
@StackedCrooked That's not necessarily true at all.
 
@sbi It's a physical state of the body.
 
6:59 PM
Here's a word never discussed before in this chat room:
 
all you would have to do is define emotion as, say, the product of the position and velocity of an electron, and you can get something inherently unmeasurable but also not at all supernatural.
 
(don't worry, it's on-topic!)
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked So can I have the exact same emotion you have?
 
Ell
...tampon?
 

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