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12:00 PM
the tasks are creating posts, creating events with all the details and editing them making offers for events assigning people to work on those events and to have whole overview....something like that....a web platform for overview
 
@lewis4u Are you interested in creating something as fast as possible, with poor maintainability and design, no best practices, and effectively doing the opposite of software engineering?
 
@DaveRandom so much magic ...
 
@lewis4u creating posts, creating event and "all the details" is business logic and is NOT a part of a framework
 
@Jimbo it doesn't matter, just tell him the name of the best framework ...
 
@JoeWatkins I think it's more of the least worst? ;)
 
12:01 PM
is there a config-put-back-to-normal @DaveRandom ?
 
Although the least worst can allow you to write good stuff separately and just 'hook' it in
 
@Jimbo "least bad"
 
My english is being correctly corrected by a Latvian. FML.
 
i'm interested to learn to use the tools (in this case some PHP framework) where you can do all of that what i said and not duplicate too much code...
 
CakeKohanaigniterlaravel
 
12:03 PM
why this obsession with frameworks ?
 
@lewis4u so you want a framework that already includes your application code written for you?
 
no...that is sarcastic :)
 
@lewis4u if I'd show you to two tool boxes. How do you determine which one is best? Amount of tools in it? Longevity of tools? Usability of tools? Price? Freedom of use? Applicability to your project?
 
\o/
 
12:04 PM
@lewis4u what you should focus on instead are packages. Learn to find what you need here: packagist.org and assemble you code. Pick the bet tool for a job. And learn best OOP practices and principles.
 
@JoeWatkins dunno, there's phpenv config-add but I have no idea whether the rm deletes the file or just stops it from being loaded. I don't really understand how isolated builds/jobs actually are, there's not much indication of what's going on underneath.
 
oh wait. No it doesn't
 
@Gordon the answer is "google differences between two boxes, accept as gospel first answer you can comprehend" ...
 
@JoeWatkins because that what they learn from reddit
 
That's odd. Itt looks like it didn't even disable xdebug
 
12:06 PM
i would take the toolbox which has most things already done....i mean with user auth and connection with DB already done....so you don't have to think about it....like in laravel
 
@JoeWatkins You forgot step 3, "blame the author of that answer when something goes wrong"
 
@lewis4u so the toolbox that already includes the house?
 
@you there 0.34s$ php -dextension=xdebug.so vendor/bin/phpunit --coverage-text
zend_extension should be
 
oh right
in fact I think you might need both?
 
Yeah noticed it. However: it actually gives me code coverage??
 
12:07 PM
@lewis4u looks like you have already made up your mind.
 
i just wanted to know why is Laravel not a good option and if there is something better?
 
some instrumentation may not work if it's not loaded right, I forget what though ...
not sure why it's like that, could/should be fixed
 
ah kk
 
@lewis4u ok, so you get the box with the most tools. you start the project and realize you dont need half of the tools in it, but you have to carry that box around now with that extra weight. then you realize the two tools you asked for are not very sturdy and fall apart quickly or dont work as advertised.
 
@DaveRandom it registers the php module when the zend_extension is loaded
they (ze modules) used to work like that
 
12:08 PM
yes i get the pint....it's like killing a cow for a steak
 
emm ... that's not how it works (your metaphor makes no sense)
 
There nothing wrong with killing a cow for steak btw
 
and also, a pork for bacon
 
That's totally fine
 
12:09 PM
but in this case it's like some overload....too much things inside that i won't even use
 
@lewis4u and half of the thing that you use are badly written or do not actually do what you need
 
Aight works for 7.0 \o/ and for some reason I included 7.2 instead of 7.1
 
well that is the problem that i don't know if they are badly written
the components are more to the point @Patrick
 
@JoeWatkins .. I think php needs to add \o/ operator
 
@tereško what would it do tho?
 
12:12 PM
does it matter?
 
@Archer \o/
 
@tereško not before I get the tie fighter |-o-|
 
@JoeWatkins since I still basically debug like a n00b I don't really understand xdebug. Debugging for me usually involves var_dump(). Learning how tools like that work has always been on my list of things to do but kinda like docker et al, I see so many people describing weird problems they have with their setups and I think people actually spend more time working on their tool chain than their code, and my method "just works™" so I don't feel that motivated.
 
@JoeWatkins Which also means "the one best marketed"
 
Frameworks are not toolboxes, frameworks are pre-made houses with uncolored walls, no furniture or floors. Usually, there's also a toilet in every room, on the roof, on the balcony, just in case
14
 
12:13 PM
A toilet in every room lol
 
:P that would be noice
 
@DaveRandom I always feel sad when senior devs say they debug with var_dump ... I know these people exist, but it just makes me sad ...
 
I am very very sorry Joe :P
 
@JoeWatkins sorry
 
that being said, I didn't have a clue about xdebug until 7 came out and I had to work on it's code for some reason (can't remember it) ...
we wrote phpdbg before I had ever used it ...
 
it's awkward stuff, it seems warped to me, and there's real hassle involved ... but debugging requires a debugger is like rule number one ...
 
But honestly, debugging has never occured to me to be a bottleneck, var_dumping has worked just fine in the past. But maybe I'm missing out on something that I am not aware of.
 
hi guys
How to take a parameter passed by a href link?
 
$_GET
 
@JoeWatkins specially for you, I will try and set it up this week :-P
 
Anonymous
12:18 PM
@JohnyNassar have you Googled?
 
@JohnyNassar $_GET
 
@DaveRandom that was hilarious
 
before phpdbg existed, I would debug php code with gdb ... some systems, you just cannot run locally, deploying, even to a staging environment code that var_dumps is absolutely out of the question ... what we needed was a debugger ...
@DaveRandom you should also get familiar with phpdbg ... because it's a real debugger ... hehe ...
 
Anonymous
@tereško take
 
12:19 PM
:-P
 
i didn't say make
 
i have one more question
how to find a mentor with experience?
 
@JayIsTooCommon I think I short-circuited
 
:P
 
@DaveRandom I found the problem...you guys are right....locking the file...is solving the issue....The site is behind a proxy server. When i make a request to the site, it goes through proxy server.
There were lots files in the folder it took more time than proxy server time out, so the proxy server responded with timeout error. But actually the php thread was running in actual server, once i saw the request is failed, i did a retry, it made one more request to server, so now there were two thread using the file and that is causing all the issue....thanks a lot for you guys without you guys i could have not solved it.....thanks again.... :)
 
12:20 PM
@JoeWatkins I do understand "a real debugger" btw, I use the one in VS all the time and it is super useful.
 
Anonymous
@tereško I always thought you weren't human
 
I do remember writing C that printf'd as my main method of debugging, and still use the same technique ... but I don't have time to guess what is wrong with code, there is a tool for that ...
@DaveRandom to be fair to xdebug, it can do the same kind of debugging as phpdbg ...
 
@JoeWatkins what would be a good starting point that shows the benefits of using a debugger and how to use it?
 
@lewis4u it's a matter of luck. Most of use never had a mentor and learned everything on our own.
 
@JoeWatkins I feel like the considerations are slightly different in a compiled language... I don't want to have to recompile every time a change a printf, but in PHP (and indeed, the ability to run in a non-prod env is also required) where a change can be seen pretty much instantly it just doesn't bother me. However I also totally understand the idea of not knowing what you are missing until you try it, I didn't use an IDE for years
 
12:25 PM
@tereško That's not entirely true though. I was / am mostly just lucky to have smart people around me. And a decent amount of it are from this room
 
yes i understand....no one has time and will to help some newb....you all have your own problems...i'm just saying....
 
@Vijay You should consider using a push approach rather than a pull approach - i.e. when the cron job is done it sends a notification to the other server that there is data to process. That way there's no danger that the other server will even start the job until there's a complete data set there.
 
@lewis4u as for OOP, you can just start by getting through this list of materials: stackoverflow.com/a/16356866/727208
 
I knew it was more than one proc
 
@SergeyTelshevsky Balcony toilet would solve a lot of complaints from my neighbours...
 
12:26 PM
I'm very pleased with myself ... and so should you all be ...
 
@DaveRandom ya sure....thanks a lot...
 
@lewis4u stick around here and just listen when people talk, you'll learn a lot over time. That's how I got started and it paid off really well
 
We are very pleased with you @JoeWatkins
 
thnx
 
yw
 
12:28 PM
i need to learn a lot just to follow you guys....i'm a very visual person and i need to see things to learn....i learn by watching video tutorials and then i can understand much better when i read about it
 
@JoeWatkins words alone cannot adequately express just how pleased I am, both with and for you.
 
Wes
\o
 
@PeeHaa this room has like 30 people one could attempt to describe as regulars. There are probably more than 1'000'000 programmers that use php (according stats from 2014, more than 5 million)
 
@Wes o/
 
@tereško true....
 
12:29 PM
@DaveRandom that's not my concern actually, it is actually that there is a tool for finding out exactly what is wrong with code and why, a tool for correcting the model in your head of your code, that's what a debugger is to me, in any language ...
 
tereško Joe Patrick and PeeHaa are always here
 
@tereško yeah, but imo only a small part of them are actually looking into improving themselves instead of just churning out code and call it a day
 
debug statements are a useful technique, they can also help to correct the model, but they rely on your getting it right, which is always questionable ... and they cannot reasonably give you access to the same kind of detail as a proper debugger does, a lot of the time, it's actually impossible to do so ...
 
assert(1 === 1, new MathIsBrokenException('You are boned.')); // look ma, I'm debugging!
 
@DaveRandom then what you need is actions, perhaps an interpretative dance
 
12:33 PM
I wish I could point you (@Patrick, anyone listening) to a good explanation of why you need a debugger ...
 
is it just me or i don't know, but i have a feeling that all i have learned at university only maybe 5-10% was useful....and NOW after university the real learning begins!
 
@Leigh @DaveRandom I must see that dance ...
 
@PeeHaa learning to write clean code is pretty stupid after all. Imagine the job security if all you do is spaghetti code...
 
@lewis4u you said a correct thing ...
 
12:33 PM
lol
 
university is important only because of the f****paper and degree
 
@lewis4u Well yeah that's kinda how it works. They just try to teach you to learn. The actually learning starts afetr it
@Patrick :P
 
@DaveRandom another good technique, crap in php (sry, I tried) ... take any of the core features of a good debugger, like watching, stepping ... these are indescribably useful to me, they are how I find out why code is broken, and what broke it ... there's no format specifier for that ...
 
Here's a reasonable attempt at explaining the advantages
 
12:38 PM
@JoeWatkins asserts are fine in PHP too … but it depends on what you test…
 
they are not ideal
they could have been
 
only ever use asserts for the code itself and assumptions about dependencies
 
I don't want to talk about assert, it's too upsetting for me ...
 
do not use asserts for things depending on downstream
 
@lewis4u I disagree. In university you learn how to do your own research, are exposed to ideas that you have never heard about and you also gain contacts that will help you in later life.
 
12:39 PM
@JoeWatkins why?
 
you know it always executes a function
I still can't reasonably use it ...
 
yes, you can get all those thing i a really good high-school, but it's rare to have much choice about which highschool you go to
 
@JoeWatkins just in case the assert fails?!
 
they were meant to be statements, cheap statements that you can litter around code, properly large code bases that you see in the wild, not things you find on packagist, or wrote in 2015 ...
 
it's a bit like $a or throw Error
 
12:41 PM
no, they always call the function
look at how they are compiled
:(
 
@JoeWatkins Oh, indeed
why isn't it a simple JMPNZ?
 
@tereško maybe i didn't express myself correctly: what i meant is that when you finish college you are not a developer.....you are "green" a newb, a rookie...name it however you want...and if you personally didn't work on your skills by doing stuff which are not part of lectures or university, then you are not ready to work...you need to learn!!!
 
because dmitry
I don't know
 
@JoeWatkins Makes no sense. Let's just draft a simple patch for this, have Nikita approve it and go ahead
 
I'd love that, but I lost the argument already ... it was a good patch, that I couldn't put forward until dmitry reviewed/approved it ... sound familiar to you ?
 
12:45 PM
@lewis4u That is to be expected though. If you graduate med school you still are going to work a couple of years as an assistant, you don't just assume a full doctor role just after school.
 
it's a strange kind of democracy we have ... democrazy ...
 
@lewis4u depends. When I finished university I already had work experience in the IT sector and immediately got a job offer, because I was recommended by one of my previous classmates.
 
@JoeWatkins we can land things without Dmitry having to approve it. We just need enough people who are overruling him
 
just as i said....but what if you didn't work in IT sector
 
well I didn't have those people then, and that benefits me ... sometimes ... but it's still wrong whatever, don't you think ?
 
12:47 PM
@JoeWatkins as said, just because you lost one battle, you haven't lost the war.
 
@lewis4u I would still have got that job offer, because I got the job without ever sending a CV - I was vouched for
 
yes and you would need to learn
 
@JoeWatkins we - also Dmitry - sometimes does bad decisions … then we need to overturn these where possible - and here it's definitely possible.
 
you would be unexperienced
 
I had Iearned for 3 years in university and 3 years in highschool
 
12:50 PM
but why should there need to be a battle, or a war, we are supposed to have a process that precludes that, but somehow it doesn't work ...
because we engage in this kind of politics ... it's a matter of fact that one person, or enough people, can do pretty much whatever ...
I'm not sure why we are still trying to please a couple of guys from zend all the time, if I'm honest ...
 
i'm not talking about you now @tereško I mean for someone who learned only THAT what was on the lecture in highschool and at the college...that is not enough...that is my point
 
@JoeWatkins We're not trying to please the guys from Zend, but the guys who are our biggest committers.
@JoeWatkins It's about respecting their knowledge about the source
At least usually … the people who know most about source can give you the most accurate technical feedback too
But as always - we're just humans and may turn out to be wrong.
 
@lewis4u that's why one usually starts out as "junior developer" while being paid in peanuts
 
yess
that is who i am
 
@bwoebi in some cases that is true, and I'm not suggesting we should not collaborate, but deal behind closed doors to avoid process, with nothing more than the weight of a couple of contributors appears objectively wrong to me ...
and it happens all the time ...
 
12:56 PM
@JoeWatkins The problem is the process here.
We're using process for technical issues where most people who can voice their opinion have just no clue
And that goes wrong too. Thus we're choosing the alternative - dealing behind closed doors
 
yeah, that happens, and is annoying ... I think the old way had one thing going for it, karma, which we nod 0b10 today, but isn't involved in the decision making process like it is authoring ...
 
If you manage to fix process … that would be great … but nobody really knows how to fix it. @JoeWatkins
 
@Danack Just a thought - something that I thought about when you gave your talk and I didn't put it on the feedback slide, I definitely think there's a difference between a DiC and an Injector (and it would've been cool to touch on that when you recommended Auryn as I think even Daniel who wrote it made that distinction)
 
@Jimbo yes, "injector" is a name usually used for one of DIC system's components
 
@JoeWatkins just to point out; when the process had been conceived after PHP 6, there were more active contributors still which were involved with Core too… nowadays it's maybe a handful of people who are really able to … and maybe like 1.5 people who are true experts in Zend
 
1:02 PM
I dunno how to fix it either, but can observe that what we have now is quite regularly ruining ideas, which is annoying for us on a personal/professional level, and results in sub-par software for everyone, which is annoying for everyone ...
(if only they knew it)
 
@JoeWatkins there's some truth … but if we don't fix it, it will continue that way and not get better
// afk -shower
 
@lewis4u then learn. You have coworkers that have have experience and apparently you also have access to the internet
watch lectures, ask question, make throw-away side projects
 
for internet you are right but i have no coworkers...i'm the only IT guy
startup company
 
lol
 
my learning curve is very steep
 
1:08 PM
I've been that guy, it's lonely
 
lol
 
you can learn from anyone, even a hobo can teach you how to survive the night ...
 
it's hard when you are alone....sometimes you lose a lot of time to solve a stupid problem like it doesn't work if you didn't delete cache and cookies
 
1:10 PM
well, what do you think you learned from that ?
 
Oh, regarding the tiered conference ticket pricing I talked about yesterday, the conf has no external funding, no sponsors (and over 9000 attendees)
 
hmm ... I dunno if I like that @Leigh
 
i learned from that that sometimes things work but you can't see it because you don't have experience
 
it's not very community centric ... sponsors (employers/providers) are part of the ecosystem too, they deserve the space to do business, I think it's good for conferences in many ways ...
 
@JoeWatkins tickets.events.ccc.de/33c3 I think it's all very reasonable, for a conference that is now in it's 33rd year, to ask people to pay what they can, or what they think it deserves.
typo 3 -> 33
 
1:12 PM
I liked that part ... but it results in pretty expensive tickets whatever
wow 33
I'll just shut up, they obviously know more about it than me :D
 
And it never had external funding
 
@lewis4u That also shows the importance of using a debugger. So you can see those things. (And... We've gone full circle! :D)
 
oh, how do conferences work !?
 
how can you see in debugger if you didn't delete cookies and cache
in a browser
 
You have the value of ALL the set variables (including globals) showing in the inspect window
 
1:15 PM
@JoeWatkins Well this one has always been primarily a hacker conference (in the true sense of the term), and it maintains that community ethic. Even volunteers pay full ticket price
 
So you can see whatever is in your $_COOKIES, etc..
 
@lewis4u first, do not focus on how hard you have it, all alone, and 32 ... honestly, nobody cares ... and it's not useful to you whatever ...
we all done more or less what you are doing, some of us may have found it as difficult as you are apparently finding it ... you are preaching to the choir ;)
 
yes i'm preaching out loud hoping someone will hear me....
 
second, learning, and exercising knowledge are two different disciplines ...
 
true
 
1:20 PM
if something goes wrong, it's not necessarily because you don't know something ... it's more likely because you haven't used what you do know properly ... don't always ask the question "what don't I know?" when something goes wrong, ask "how can I do that better with what I do know?" ...
 
yes i understand and thank you Joe
 
lastly, learn to really listen ... if you ask someone a question, like "what is the best framework?" absorb their answer if it's reasonable ... don't just argue with it, don't ignore it ... especially if you disagree ...
 
hmm but i don't see it as an argue i just need more info....why does this person say that....the facts!
for example if someone comes to you and tells you your program sucks...i don't like it! you can't do anything with that.....but if that person says your program sucks it is not secure....you must do that and that to fix it....well with that answer you can fix it
 
three or four of us gave you more or less the same answer, we tried metaphor, directness, and other such techniques ... you just kept requesting the name of the best framework in one form or another ...
that's a strange way to react to new information
the good thing about the internet is immortality ... you should read over how you reacted to the idea that you might be asking the wrong question ...
 
but you see someone answered something constructfull and i stopped asking the same question again...i think it was tereško
 
1:28 PM
maybe we were being constructive, but not all of us remember that @Patrick has that thing all written up so nicely ...
maybe you didn't really listen
maybe if you read it again, you will see the same answer, over and over, like I, or most of us will ;)
 
@Duikboot there is no 100% garuantee, a printer or scanner can always malfunction... so you will always need a back-up plan, like extra printer / scanner / ... maybe even hand written labels?
 
I'm saying maybe to be gracious ... I'm right ...
 
Yes Patrick said to use components
 
@lewis4u did you click on the link and work through the tutorial?
 
and i stopped asking for framework later
 
1:30 PM
serious read over that exchange ... learning from yourself is also a thing ...
 
i clicked on the link and saved it
i will go through it
 
I've followed the tutorial HERE adamboother.com/blog/… and for some reason the access token I get still says it expires after 2 months.
Does ANYONE know how to get a Non-Expiring Access Token for Facebook so I can make my website post to my page automatically
 
how long ago did you leave university ?
 
6 months
but master program
i have Bachelor degree
 
is being wrong a bad thing or a good thing ?
 
1:34 PM
beeing wrong doesn't have anything o do with good or bad
to do
imho
 
why ?
I don't really understand that response ...
 
you can be an asshole, a bad guy and at the same time have right in what you are saying....but no one can dispute that what you have said!
and vice versa....you can be a good person and be wrong
or that was not the point of your question
 
I didn't ask if it made you a bad person, I asked if it was a good thing or a bad thing ...
something to look forward too, or something to avoid ?
 
of course something to avoid
 
you're wrong
 
1:38 PM
why
i want to learn
why am i wrong
 
okay, calm down ... you really hate that ...
 
hahaha
 
you must shake that off ... it really is something to look forward too
 
no i'm not pissed off or something
i'm laughing right now
but i want you to teach me
 
being right is nice, but you're not learning anything all the time you are correct, you're not really advancing or moving forward ...
 
1:39 PM
for me you are someone to look up to
 
you move forward when you are proven or find yourself to be incorrect ...
 
true....but i didn't understand you quite well
 
I like being wrong... seriously. Took a bit of a learning curve, but as soon as I'm wrong I'm like okay.. let's learn the better way
 
exactly, those are the best days
 
^ Joe reminisces about when he used to be wrong, now he's always right
:D
 
1:41 PM
:)
 
Anonymous
@lewis4u Because you're concentrating on responding to Joe instead of listening/reading, read back what he says, slowly.
 
@JoeWatkins when you said is being wrong a good or a bad thing....i thought on those who "killed" galileo because he said "And yet it moves!"
 
haha, there are still many such days, thankfully ...
the point was ... I had a point ...
 
yes you are right....if you think you are never wrong you will never learn
whatever you are learning
 
never ask a question if you're not willing to throw away your preconceived answer and accept something in total opposition to it ...
and that's easier, when you learn to look forward to being wrong ...
afk school run ... lata
 
1:51 PM
@Leigh can you think of some better operation/pretend code for demonstration than this? (ref. async vs non-linear talk as discussed briefly yesterday)
 
@Jimbo er.....what's the difference between them precisely? not saying there isn't one, but it seems quite semantically small to me
 
@Danack Like @tereško said, the injector is the specific bit that does one thing, the DiC is a group of all the things. But whenever someone says DiC I cringe a little because the 'container' part carries a certain connotation with it - it's naming and typical usage implies registration of a tonne of objects into a sort of 'god object' perhaps
The container that holds all the things and in the darkness binds them
 
you probably can refer to DIC as "framework"
 
@DaveRandom I understand this :-)
 
@Jimbo so here's the other thing that's missing from that atm: Generator::throw() means you can actually wrap e.g. the while in a try/catch and also handle exceptions just like you would in sync code
The thing to remember is that you don't need to care about how it works at first though, and just trust that it works, and the thing that makes it work is the event loop
It is against the nature of most devs to trust the black box, but this is one of those cases where you have to, because if you try and figure out the why first you will overload yourself
(in my experience)
 
2:00 PM
@DaveRandom So you put a yield before something that would typically block, and this allows the event loop to not block. Amiright
 
@Jimbo that's really hard to explain in the 30 seconds or so, which is about as much time as I can spend on talking about injectors.
 
Wtf … I really was one whole hour in that shower
 
Does getRow() really need a yield?
 
@Jimbo yes, rows aren't available ahead of time
 
@Danack Fair enough, just something that popped up in my brain and I wanted to mention mate. Perhaps just "injector" next time, I've taken to call it that instead
 
2:01 PM
^^ (unless you buffer them)
 
you first get told that query is fine and then rows are sent over wire @Jimbo
 
Ah of course
 
@Jimbo Specifically what yield does is transfer execution control back to the event loop
 
@bwoebi Gotchya
@DaveRandom Ohhh, noice
See that makes sense
 
What you are saying is "continue this code when there is something for me to do"
Generator::send() allows the loop to give you data back when it is available
 
2:03 PM
So, with those multiple yields yesterday, it would have to execute each one and get a response before continuing to the end. Can you do yield X && yield Y or does it have to be written synchronously like that
 
However you aren't ever calling these methods on Generator, it's the loop that deals with all of this
 
yeah, the difference between threading and non-blocking is that you have a guarantee that from the last yield to the next yield your program state never changes
 
@Jimbo you can do that, sure (although you have to do (yield X) && (yield Y) because of operator precedence)
Somewhere in Jeeves you will find some code that looks like that, I forget where it is
 
@Jimbo There are combinator functions like all() … which basically do $promise->when() on both promises and return another promise which gets resolved when both other promises' callback is called
 
^ that
 
2:05 PM
I think I do some multirequests somewhere that uses it
 
promise promise promise promise
 
in an example like if ((yield X) && (yield Y)) you might want to use all() or another combinator and you might not, it depends whether you want to short-circuit on the && or not
 
@NikiC Yeah, promise me to get this HashDos fix in :-P
 
Where's this all method then
Yield you just write "yield"
 
@Jimbo in the amp library … it's a function (i.e. Amp\all())
 
2:06 PM
@bwoebi I've been thinking about alternatives ^^
 
Ah, okay
 
@NikiC and…?
 
@bwoebi dusted off old siphash patch to check how siphash13 performs ... it's about 120% slower for unpacked ints
I'm thinking it might be possible to use adaptive hashing to limit the impact
 
@NikiC this would be a quite unpredictable branch, I guess
 
@bwoebi It should be fully predictable
To clarify, what I had in mind is to only use siphash for integers if we reach a collision threshold
 
2:09 PM
@NikiC or maybe I misunderstood what you mean with adaptive?
 
@Jimbo It's a function which combines multiple promises into a single promise. So with your example, they are executed asynchronously, but they are still executed sequentially. A combinator would allow you to execute them both at the same time, and the combined promise "resolves" (i.e. control is returned to your function) when they are both complete.
So it's faster if you definitely want both results, but if you only want to check the second condition if the first one fails then you wouldn't combine them.
 
@NikiC ah, okay
 
Of course this will add some complexity because we need the collision counting and the integer hashes
 
However I would deliberately avoid combinators etc for this unless it turned out I needed to fill some time
 
@DaveRandom I think that gets the point across, although kneejerk ew at the ->forEach :p
 
2:09 PM
/me has RL to deal with, later
@Leigh Well the point is that's the horrible API we are getting rid of :-P
ttyl
 
@NikiC Have you already toyed with this adaptive impl or not yet?
 
@bwoebi nope
 
@Jimbo Check out cooperative vs preemtive multitasking. The event loop here is cooperative, which requires tasks to yield control back so that the scheduler can decide who deserves a time slice next. I think "yield control" sums it up nicely
 
I've just spent an unreasonable amount of time implementing a php lexer in js
 
@Leigh It does, I understand that now, best way of putting it. But Co-operative is something else entirely then?
 
2:12 PM
cooperative means the tasks are cooperating to relinquish control. preemptive means the scheduler can interrupt the task
 
A greedy (or uncooperative) task could hog all of the time
 
@NikiC Haha, I've seen that … for 3v4l, right
 
@NikiC That's doubly horrible
 
@bwoebi That was just the parser, which is the easy part. Making the lexer conformant turned out to be much harder.
Lexing PHP is incredibly ugly due to string interpolation and heredoc
 
2:19 PM
@NikiC What's so ugly about them? Isn't it just pushing a special lexer state?
 
@bwoebi Basically. Just not one state but more like 10
Not to mention that the heredoc crap prevents you from just using fixed regexes throughout
 
value: PHP.Constants.T_START_HEREDOC,
                re: /^<<<[A-Z_0-9]+\s/i,
                func: function( result ){
                    heredoc = result.substring(3, result.length - 1);
                    return result;
                }
^ well that still looks quite simple
 
@bwoebi That's the existing lexer which doesn't actually handle heredoc interpolation at all
 
@NikiC Oh, you still have an unpushed version, ok
 
@bwoebi yeah ... studying for exam tomorrow
 
2:27 PM
@NikiC well… good luck…
github.com/php/php-src/commit/… @NikiC … did something change with interned strings between 7.0 and 7.1 that this leaks on 7.0, but not on 7.1/master?
 
@bwoebi not that I'm aware of
Though I was wondering about that code, I didn't understand it
Shouldn't interned strings live strictly longer than request-allocated strings?
 
right, but phpdbg persists the op_array past request end
 
@bwoebi err?
 
… wait.
 
but you're using request allocation?
 
2:40 PM
@NikiC I'm even using zend_alloc macros after php_request_shutdown … only stopping to use it after sapi_shutdown
… I do not understand this myself right now…
 
magic
 
@NikiC Ah, because full_shutdown == 0
full_shutdown == 1 is only in module_shutdown
@NikiC Indeed a bit of magic behind. Primary reason is that I am using a custom memory manager, thus it's not resetting anything, … and zend_mm_heap is only freed upon full shutdown … Then in MSHUTDOWN I reset the memory managers and now it does a proper full shutdown with leak checking and all
@NikiC so, I'm indeed abusing this thing and it just happens to work
 
Anonymous
@PeeHaa playing tonight?
 
Not sure yet. Ping me when you get back
 
Anonymous
kk
 

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