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1:00 PM
Morning cabbage.
 
user559633
@corvid You could do the same trivial thing that you were doing in NoSQL with tables. A rough example of how I recently did it: I have groups, roles, and users. Roles define what can be accessed (e.g. can they write to /events ?), those Roles are given to Groups (e.g. Sales), and then I have a User ID->Group ID mapping table. There's also a Group ID->Role ID mapping, so if a user tries to do a permission'd action on a resource not created by his/her group id/user id, we consult the tables.
 
user559633
I also have per group and user overrides (e.g. active bool and banned bool) and separate my staff users from my customer-users because their permissions needs are much different.
 
Hmm, I should probably rethink my design for rabbit's permission system, which is currently "if you've got a token you can do anything any other user can do"
 
user559633
cbg @MorganThrapp :)
 
user559633
Eh, for a trusted system where all the users 'know' each other, a broad permission scheme is fine.
 
1:09 PM
I definitely want tighter security for the feature/issue #8 unstar less popular messages since it's irreversible
 
user559633
My async workers just get a shared token and the API knows to watch the backdoor to let them in so I don't have to maintain a per-machine-instance user or hit user cache/database for each worker request
 
user559633
Why unstar less popular messages?
 
@Kevin I don’t want that to be automated.
 
Luckily this project is open-source and in flask, so if you want to see what it basically is
 
I also don't want that. Someone has to throw the switch.
The lazy solution is to not integrate that functionality at all into the bot or userscript. If an RO wants to run the script, they have to execute it from the command prompt.
Which takes care of security, since then they'd have to have login rights to the underlying server that rabbit lives on, or they'd have to run the script on their local machine under their own RO account credentials.
 
user559633
1:14 PM
Or just don't do that action at all. I don't understand the purpose of unstarring messages.
 
It's like clipping the branches off a bonsai tree ;-)
 
user559633
We want to mutilate an organic thing?
 
It's like clipping one's fingernails ;-)
 
user559633
We want to break our free tools?
 
1:18 PM
Because Peter did it before me, and I did it for as long as I could keep up. I like having a curated list of stars.
 
My point is that I don’t want stars to disappear ever automated. There should be a human to actually say whether something is worth keeping or not. Numbers are not interesting for that.
If it’s a problem of “nobody else does it”, then say so, and I’ll do it from now on.
 
user559633
So let's make a "best of starboard" on sopython and leave the SO version as the source of truth
 
@tristan The rationale is that some starred messages aren't that interesting once the heat of the moment has passed. So some room owner(s) goes through old starred messages, de-starring stuff so that only the best is preserved. Oops. Ninja'd by davidism. Oh well.
 
I feel the best approach (but the biggest pain in the butt to implement) would be an interface that shows every message with one-to-three stars all on a single page, and the user can check/uncheck which ones ought to be cleaned up. Then there's less chance of some criminally-understarred hidden gem getting swept away with no oversight.
(Putting aside the issue of whether or not we should be doing this at all)
 
I like tristan's suggestion of never de-starring anything (apart from stuff that was wrongly starred by a newbie) and having a separate "best of starboard" list.
 
@Kevin I don’t think the process on its own is actually complicated enough to make yet another list. The script is already integrated nicely.
 
user559633
> "As surely as I valued your comment today, so may the RO value my comment and deliver it from all deletion." -- The Bible, more or less
 
(if someone is of another opinion, say so, and I’ll tweak the script)
@PM2Ring Also, starring history and statistics (when do posts get starred most etc)
That’s actually something rabbit can monitor.
 
@poke yeah, didn't mean I wanted it automated completely. It would be nice if the script auto-selected >= 3 day, < 3 star messages.
 
@davidism I didn't mind the end of Knights of Sidonia
 
1:25 PM
@RobertGrant s1 or s2?
 
@davidism I can add such a thing to the script. That way, we won’t need the functionality in rabbit (yay for Kevin), and we still have humans looking over it (yay for me)
 
Although I'm hoping it's not the actual end
It's a bit weird with nudity, but then it is anime
What didn't you like?
 
@RobertGrant Don’t call it nudity then, call it fanservice.
 
user559633
Is there a self-help cartoon series called CANime?
 
user559633
1:27 PM
@poke Ughhhhhh too early
 
that’s what it’s called!
 
@RobertGrant the alien "child" thing and how every character got somewhat worse when in proximity to it.
 
user559633
The concept that there are people that really want the artists to draw cartoon characters naked is a bit heavy for pre 10am
 
Oh right yeah, I thought that was stupid too
 
@tristan A lot people watching it won’t care. But also, a lot anime studios deliberately do this (especially in the first ~1-3 episodes) to get potential viewers on board.
That’s an actual thing.
 
1:29 PM
Yeah I watched Elfen Lied episode 1 and basically switched it off for that
 
Half of that show was great.
 
It was a cool start in every other way
 
A lot animes actually start with a ridiculous high amount of fanservice that you could think it’s only a fanservice anime, when the fanservice aspect actually completely disappears a few episodes in.
 
Gotta pander to the small group of fans that prop up the entire industry by buying three hundred dollar figurines of their favorite waifus.
(not that there's anything wrong with that)
((well there might be but I'm not going to argue about it))
 
1:34 PM
@davidism I actually don't hate that. As long as it stays optional, it's better than the type comments IMO.
 
user559633
"fanservice" is part of what makes anime a non-starter for me.
 
@tristan yeah
 
Just watch the stuff without fanservice, then.
 
There's plenty out there where it's not the focus. I'm not super detail oriented when I watch stuff, so a lot of the subtler stuff just slips past without notice too.
 
@Kevin yeah but that's rubbish
 
user559633
1:36 PM
I think it's just not "for me"
 
And that’s fine.
 
user559633
Agreed :)
 
Fair. I'm a lot less in to it than I was a few years ago.
 
I like all the cool stuff, but just not that
 
sup everyone
 
user559633
1:37 PM
#pep 526
class Cls:
  my_class_attr: ClassAttr[bool] = True
 
user559633
not into that idea at all.
 
@tristan is that a name?
 
What if ClassAttr is a dict!?
(They probably answer that)
 
Does anyone know django?
 
@CrazyDeveloper It's a proposed addition to the language from here:
 
user559633
1:39 PM
even if succinct and not typing ClassAttr, it's still trying to shoehorn things into Python that I don't think fit very well.
 
@CrazyDeveloper welcome, please read our room rules: sopython.com/chatroom
 
@CrazyDeveloper yes. He died a free man.
 
@Robert That PEP’s idea is to add foo: TypeOfFoo = bar instead of foo = bar # type: TypeOfFoo – the actual capabilities of the typing system are not affected.
 
user559633
that reference is off the chain
 
1:40 PM
So the answer is yes, PEP484 covers the dictionary case :P
 
user559633
MyVariableNameNonTrivial: ClassAttr[dict] = {...} # wheeeeeeeee
 
I don’t exaclty get the ClassAttr thing though
 
What is django used for?
 
user559633
garlic troll
 
@CrazyDeveloper Exhibit A, Exhibit B. Please read that.
 
1:43 PM
I mean, I don't know that I would actually use the type annotations, but it's at least cleaner than the type comments.
 
user559633
If I wanted a static typed language, I'd use one
 
Looks a lot like Scala.
 
I don't think I've ever written code where type hints would actually be useful.
 
user559633
Yeah, a major reason that I use Python is so I don't have to type as much. If I'm going to type a lot more, I might as well use a compiled thing.
 
why did you kick me?
 
1:45 PM
As usual, I get the feeling that my experience deviates pretty far from the average case.
 
user559633
@CrazyDeveloper When you get kicked, you see the room description. In that room's description is a link to the room rules.
 
Also, as poke said, try basic searching and reading.
 
One the one hand, I feel like it's better than type comments.
On the other hand, I feel like in 60 years time our descendants will be working in Type Camps, cursing us for not fighting against the Type Oppressors.
3
 
The Django site has in huge print a description of what it's used for.
 
Python will be a legend amongst the rebellion, prosecuted mercilessly by the JavaLords.
 
user559633
1:47 PM
@CrazyDeveloper Aww cutie, that's rude.
 
wowzers
 
> This message has been deleted
 
by me.
 
user559633
Oh hi Martijn o/
 
uh oh you've summoned the ninja :|
 
1:48 PM
@Ffisegydd Yeah, I too am imagining a strictly typed boot stomping on a human face, forever.
 
What I don’t like about Python type hints is that they are mixing up syntax all the time
The language obviously isn’t designed to have room for them with a consistent syntax.
 
user559633
stomping on a typeSpecies: human face, typeTime: forever.
 
Even rationally acknowledging that this almost certainly isn't a "slippery slope" to a mandatory typing dystopia, I can't shake the feeling.
 
glad I didn't miss that one :P
cbg
 
user559633
cbg Andras
 
1:50 PM
NB: on phone...
 
Thankfully there will be one who will lead the rebellion and throw down the oppressors, leading to a new world where people can be comfortable with their typing. His name shall be NerdCop.
 
Slow and even more typo-y than usual:D
 
at least there's a new mobile chat client that is 100x better than the old one @AndrasDeak ;)
 
Honest talk: I’m doing a lot TypeScript lately, and I’m loving it.
 
user559633
@Ffisegydd Amusingly, I scribbled a note that puts NerdCop in a bar, where he gruffly states "she's just my type...static" after fragging an enemy robot with a lightning pulse rifle
 
1:52 PM
@enderland I think I've only seen the new one
 
you are quite lucky then
the old one was, ah, less than good let's say hah
 
user559633
I've been writing a "lot" of (maybe 3k lines over past 2 weeks) of JS/ES6 and haven't been very happy
 
I even dislike this one...always contemplating switching to full version
But that just doesn't sound right
 
I use the mobile site view instead of the app
that feels wrong but it's way better XD
 
Wow, that guy is still going, lol…
 
1:54 PM
@enderland that's what I'm dokng myself
 
Yeah I found it and did the initial flag.
 
*popcorn*
Was there anyone in the django room?
 
user559633
Sorry, giving attention to someone that wants/needs it.
 
I haven't seen it, but it'd be hard for the new mobile chat client to be worse than the old one. Especially for ROs, since the RO tools were inaccessible on the old one, at least for me on an old Android tablet (which has since died).
 
waffles
 
1:55 PM
and admin have mercy if you wanted to change rooms
 
@PM2Ring the RO tools are still inaccessible on mobile.
 
@Ffisegydd I did all the others xD
 
@davidism :facepalm: But I can't say I'm totally surprised.
 
also for the record this chat is unbelievably prolific
 
Eh, chat banned.
 
1:57 PM
Oh heh, I'm already on the full site...
So part of my problems come from Opera
 
user559633
Didn't Opera get sold to some malware company?
 
That's not what these helpful search bars tell me
 
@AndrasDeak :D
 
user559633
After a $1.2 billion deal fell through, Opera has sold most of itself to a Chinese consortium for $600 million. The buyers, led by search and security firm Qihoo 360, are purchasing Opera's browser business, its privacy and performance apps, its tech licensing and, most importantly, its name.
 
2:00 PM
\o/
 
That's why that other browser appeared
 
China doesn't do malwares, silly
 
the amount of cash thrown around in the software industry for acquisition is nuts
 
“a Chinese consortium” – whatever that is supposed to mean…
 
Vivaldi
 
user559633
2:01 PM
Qihoo has been described by Forbes as a confrontational and litigious company due to its involvement in various anti-competition lawsuits.[18]
 
user559633
Oh, so they're a shady business/patent troll.
 
Any alternative suggestions other than chrome/fox?
 
user6568562
@enderland True. I sure hope it isn't a bubble
 
Vivaldi?
 
user559633
Internet Explorer.
 
2:02 PM
No? None?
 
@randomhopeful it's gotta be a bubble, at least in the "companies which will never be profitable world" :P
 
Edge?
Safari?
 
user559633
@AndrasDeak Why not Chrome(/Chromium)/Firefox?
 
@AndrasDeak Why do you want an alternative?
 
@RobertGrant That's a phone;)
 
2:03 PM
@MorganThrapp someone upvoted the answer to the typo question :(
 
@RobertGrant nice one.
 
@enderland I suspect OP.
 
@poke I'm trying to jump ever more sharks as I go
Although the first suggestion was real
 
Edge is a good suggestion, Safari is not.
 
> Last seen 19 mins ago
 
2:04 PM
Edge is quite nice from the little I've used it
 
@enderland I mean, they posted the question 12 minutes ago.
 
Edge actually isn't bad - still prefer Chrome and Firefox mind you
 
@MorganThrapp blame caching
 
Yeah, Edge is surprisingly not a complete dumpster fire.
As long as you don't need addons.
And can stand the weird interface.
 
@tristan I dislike google's complete integration in chrome, and I disliked firefox (something very basic was missing, I think it was setting a user agent to desktop instead of mobile)
 
user6568562
2:05 PM
@enderland True
 
I actually love how chrome syncs with everything @AndrasDeak as it means if I accidentally wipe my history on my phone, I can get all my saved passwords/urls back :P
though it means that chrome is storing stuff plaintext somewhere, I guess
 
user6568562
I was very surprised that Samsung android phones don't have chrome and gmail as default apps, but two weird ugly ones "Internet" and can't remember the other
 
user559633
@AndrasDeak That's fair. I don't trust Google to not do shady crap, so I think that's a valid reason to avoid it. Can you do plugins in firefox mobile?
 
user6568562
@enderland Firefox does that also
 
@enderland "saved passwords" <-- exactly
 
2:06 PM
@tristan they used to be not evil, now we will never know
 
granted, if you don't want to use Chrome cause you don't trust Google then I would ask "do you trust Microsoft" with Edge
 
@tristan Yup, Firefox for Android supports pretty much everything.
 
so Firefox it is
 
@AndrasDeak @Kevin Re: the discussion we had recently about self-consistent time loops, there's been some interesting stuff posted on xkcd by a guy who appears to know what he's talking about. See Re: 1716: "Time Travel Thesis"
 
user6568562
You can store Tabs, History, Bookmarks, Passwords, Preferences and Add ons when creating a Firefox profile
 
user559633
2:07 PM
@poke That's great. I think I need to switch
 
Thanks for the input, guys, I'll search around:)
 
also if it is just "saved passwords" you can turn that off
 
@tristan Biggest selling point for me is that it’s the same engine on mobile as on desktop. So if you have a new feature on desktop, you get that feature on mobile at the same time.
It’s just a different platform target for them now.
 
@JGreenwell I don't have any. It's about principle
 
> P.S. I have been looking for one of those professor jackets with the elbow-pads, but it is proving quite difficult to find. Any leads?
 
user559633
2:09 PM
@poke For me, it's their willingness to get plugins. Google obviously only closes it off on mobile because they control the ecosystem and don't want users blocking ads
 
@PM2Ring thank you, will take a look:)
 
Those things are hard to find - I'm still looking for one (probably just sew patches on myself)
 
user559633
Get a jacket and bring it to a tailoring shop?
 
user6568562
@tristan My biggest grand disappointment from Google being actually evil is their decision to make users pay if they want to keep listening to music in the background
 
user559633
@randomhopeful On youtube or something? Is that new? I haven't experienced this
 
2:11 PM
"Pay to listen to music" is not what people mean when they say Google is "evil".
 
user6568562
@tristan On youtube on Mobile. You can't keep listening to music if you change apps. You can only keep listening if you have Youtube Red
 
@AndrasDeak fair enough - but you really only have Chrome, Firefox, and Edge (if you use IE I will come to your house and beat you with your monitor....also MS doesn't even support it anymore)
 
Yeah, how dare they make you pay a reasonable amount of money for music!
Rabble rabble!
 
user559633
@randomhopeful Oh gross.
 
oh, I use radio apps for that anyway
 
user559633
2:12 PM
@MorganThrapp Eh, that's pretty shitty behavior. Give us money to not cut audio from a process.
 
@tristan It's a lot more than just that though. It's also removing ads, higher audio quality, etc.
 
You can always use their html5 player in a mobile browser, it runs audio in the background just fine.
 
user6568562
Yes, absolutely. Pay for a better experience.
 
I don't use it, because I have spotify, but it's really not unreasonable if you compare it to any other streaming service.
 
user6568562
@davidism Didn't know that. Will keep that in mind
 
2:14 PM
@JGreenwell no need to worry about IE:)
 
1. collect all the world's information.
2. have no idea what to do with it
3. sell it
4. profit ?
 
user559633
@MorganThrapp That's fine, offer higher audio quality and ad free on a phone, but if the browser will only cut audio when not foreground for youtube.com/*, that's pretty shady
 
I pay the $10/month for spotify
 
user559633
We're not talking about Google music
 
I wish that was true Andras, I wish that was true
 
user6568562
2:14 PM
@tristan My point exactly
 
@tristan Nah, it's only for the app itself. I believe you can get around it by using the browser.
 
user6568562
If it wasn't* a matter of code to add, why be like Microsoft ?
 
user559633
@MorganThrapp Nope. Chrome -> Youtube.com -> "yacht rock" -> jamming out -> hit home -> yacht sunk
 
@JGreenwell I mean I wouldn't even touch IE with a stick that has a pointy end and explodes on impact
 
@tristan Oh, huh. I thought I'd had it working in the past. Maybe they changed it.
 
user6568562
2:16 PM
That's the evil part
 
I'm sure you can get around it with another browser, but meh.
 
@tristan works in the background in Firefox
 
user559633
@MorganThrapp It used to do that, but I think they changed it for monetization. Tested on other site and sound will work in background.
 
user559633
@davidism That's even worse.
 
Yacht rock makes me think of Rodney Dangerfield in Caddyshack running into everyone on the lake
 
user559633
2:17 PM
Google is using their closed browser to modify behaviors only on properties they own.
 
I still don't understand why it's evil though. Mildly annoying, sure. Evil, though?
 
It's specifically chrome that's enabling them to pause on unfocus
Yeah, not evil.
 
user6568562
Not evil in the medieval sense of evil. But a sh!t move, indeed
 
user559633
Shady and trust-destroying, but I don't know about 'evil'
 
Youtube never played stuff in the background on mobile.
They added a premium feature.
 
2:17 PM
Evil is "Hey, we sold your browser to a chinese malware company and didn't tell you".
 
oh, not you Andras - there are still people who use it and even organization which insist on still supporting it
 
Cough, Opera, cough.
 
@MorganThrapp the capability of google to summon The Ancient One overshadows any slight trolling they do
 
user559633
To me, it's like when they stopped returning results for confederate flags to virtue signal. Would I ever buy a confederate flag? Hell no. Is it a worrying thing that a company decided to silently change the results to push their agenda? Hell yes.
 
@MorganThrapp why thank you:P
 
2:20 PM
@tristan to be fair that's how any search engine works, their algorithms determine what you see
 
user559633
 
user559633
yeah google, you did it! you made the world a better place!
 
oh, Glock 23 is a nice gun
 
user6568562
@tristan Hahaha, point well made
 
user6568562
2:21 PM
Gotta go, everybody. Laters [ :
 
user559633
@enderland yes, but being comfortable making it seem as if there just wasn't a result is the issue. what if you were looking for corruption in a google partner company?
 
user559633
later @randomhopeful have a good one
 
dang it @PM2Ring! Pointing me to time travel stuff that will take me forever to understand :P (nice link, saved for later)
 
@JGreenwell That was PM 2Ring:P You're welcome.
 
whoops, what I get for skimming
 
2:29 PM
@JGreenwell :) I haven't read that guy's papers (yet), but the stuff he's been posting in the forum is pretty cool. FWIW, I read Novikov's The River of Time years ago (it was in the local library), so I'm fairly familiar with the whole concept of self-consistent time loops.
 
Anyone here got an amazon echo? Is it worth it?
 
I've played with one, and I could definitely see the appeal.
Especially if you do a lot of cooking.
 
Only experience I have is 3rd party
 
heh...its fun messing with colleagues who are wearing Apple watches: just randomly saying stuff like "Hey Siri find me a restaurant" and then watching them get annoyed cause I cut out their music
 
2:43 PM
I don't really get what the point of apple watches is, to be honest
 
that is awesome, I forgot about that one
 
Siri, self-destruct
 
Siri, disobey this instruction.
 
Siri, believe me when I say I'm lying
 
I would get them with runners or hikers or some such but at an office where people are trying to make video lectures and other presentations and have to keep scrubbing "Hey Siri play ....." out of their audio - revenge should be expected and will come swiftly
 
user559633
2:49 PM
What happens if you turn up the volume and tell Siri to call you Siri?
3
 
Revenge coming swiftly: Haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate...
 
user559633
Taylor Swift gets referenced a weird amount in room/6.
 
I have no regrets
 
recorded "Hey Siri" audio loop, which turns up volume to max then plays a collection of random and horrible music at 10 second intervals, then hit play
 
2:51 PM
According to some Tech Guy show that I listened to in the past you can change how you call Siri, if you dislike trolls
Walk into a Ruby developers room and yell, "Hey Siri!"
 
there you go - I also forced them to learn some new security practices - win/win
 
DSM
Morning cabbage for all.
 
salutations
 
morning cabbage
 

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