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6:00 PM
unless php7 has very special new things I hadn't heard of :p
 
Anonymous
I think we should change the way the return type declaration is defined in PHP7.
 
Anonymous
Change the keyword function to the actual return type
 
Anonymous
function foo() : string {
}

string foo(){
}
 
Anonymous
@bwoebi is there any downside if done that way?
 
except doing as most other typed language do? :p
 
Anonymous
6:11 PM
There are no benefits in that. In the second example however, the syntax becomes much simpler.
 
@samayo No.
 
I think I suck at humor
 
There are clear benefits to putting it after the parameter list.
Please go research them.
 
@samayo I think we should stop talking about ships that have sailed months ago.
2
 
Anonymous
Eh well, just another brilliant idea of my mine ahead of its time to be appreciated :p
 
6:15 PM
@NikiC we pretty much already have 'nullables' support internally, we just need to add it to the parser ^^
 
please tell me this is not why quora.com/…
 
@samayo It's an old, old idea.
And it didn't pass several times.
In fact, reception was so bad they never even made it past discussion phase.
I still encourage you to think about why putting it after is better. There are many reasons.
Also, @bwoebi, I may not get to union types today after all.
We are moving our nursery from our basement to our main floor. It's more work than expected.
 
Anonymous
@LeviMorrison Oh sorry, my bad. I didn't actually see/heard any discussion regarding that topic. I saw the groovy lang syntax yesterday and thought it would be a cool feature for PHP.
 
@samayo At the very least you should read the return types RFC: wiki.php.net/rfc/return_types
 
Abe
@samayo which is very stupid btw :D, i prefer much more foo(): string{}
 
Anonymous
6:30 PM
Yeah, I didn't know the arguments against it.
 
Abe
class Foo{ function baz(){} }
$foo = new Foo;
$c = $foo->&baz;
$c();
this is something i would have from groovy
but would be much better if php had a single symbols table
 
lol @Jimbo, way to hijack javascript people and their teams
are you trying to break this already?
 
@bwoebi Looks like the ipv6 change doesn't go into 7.0.0 after all :P Told ya
 
6:47 PM
@NikiC that actually sucks
bigtime
 
@tereško why?
 
because it's a major release , which means that there will be a lot of people stuck on 7.0.x
 
@tereško By "not in 7.0.0" I mean "in 7.0.1"
 
won't that break BC?
 
I'd also like to note that nobody uses PHP 5.0 and 5.1
Though I do hope PHP 7 adoption will go better than that ;)
 
6:51 PM
I would like to not that last time I worked on 5.1 codebase was 6 months ago for an insurance company
 
what IPv6 change didn't go in?
 
@tereško Where "nobody" obviously means "less than 1%"
 
unfortunately those "less than 1%" usually are major companies and governments
the bigger you are, the slower you update
 
@tereško Unless you're very big
 
I think with "very big" you mean IT companies
which do not count
 
6:55 PM
okay ^^
 
IT companies usually hire people with skills in IT, companies like Exxon think that people with IT skills are there only to help them open PDF files
 
@NikiC I hate to tell you this, but there's a service people are paying for to have security updates backported as far back as 4.4
makes me weep for humanity that such a market exists but they're just one of the services doing this
 
@Machavity Yes. There are probably more people using PHP 4.4 than PHP 5.0 and PHP 5.1 together
 
Back in the early 2000s, when the application I was writing was perl, we encountered a customer with a significant performance problem.
Our software was just nastily slow on this shared host.
Now, admittedly, we were doing some horrible things involving flat files as a database, but it was absurd.
So we went in and installed our diagnostic script, as is normal to begin figuring things out.
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier #trolololol
 
7:08 PM
The OS identified itself as DEC OSF/1.
 
Don't worry I'll hand it over ;-) as long as it's not to Bejamim Grubnob
 
Even back then, shared hosts were using outdated, obsolete operating systems and packaged software on ancient hardware.
Shared hosting never changes. PHP 4 shall never die. It will live on forever in the bowels of the internet.
 
7:19 PM
> Laravel is just, terrible... (stackoverflow.com/teams/28/laravel)
@Jimbo ^^ awesome
 
Teams?!
 
yep. relationships on Stack Overflow incoming! :D
 
hey again
They let you out of JS room again? :)
 
oh while I am in the semi-official php internals chat, when is php7 coming out :( I am soooo eager
@PeeHaa o/ :P
 
@AwalGarg They're apparently adding another RC, so we might now see 7.0 proper near the end of the month.
 
7:28 PM
yeah just saw the RC7 mark on the timeline page
 
@AwalGarg Soon, but later news.php.net/php.internals/89100
 
@PeeHaa that's quite reassuring, thanks!
 
People are awesome batshit crazy
 
7:45 PM
 
I... don't get it?
Oh lol
Yeah forgot something in there :P
 
@PeeHaa It's just as well. A lot of other things (like some PECL) still aren't ready either. I still can't even put it on my dev box yet for that reason
 
hahahaha
 
I was in the JS room. saw the sidebar. it showed that. I got terribly confused. Then came here, got even more confused lol.
 
I was sure I did a ctrl+v but I didn't :P dumpert.nl/mediabase/6694725/d9caa917/…
Internet is hard
@Machavity What specific things do you use?
 
7:50 PM
just had a huuuuge déjàvu reading Machavity's comment.
 
@PeeHaa XDebug finally went beta for 7 last week. But memcache and pecl_http are behind
 
Ah for some reason I thought http was also over
 
@PeeHaa Hmm, so it is. I was watching this page for updates
 
naah, I wouldn't even vote for myself
 
8:04 PM
boo
 
I found his campaign poster
Should I be worried that the Room 11 team and the Laravel team appear to be one and the same?
 
Oh god. They went through with it?
Flagged team laravel
4
 
yep. just opened few hours ago
 
Nov 3 at 17:31, by Dan Lugg
I've been thinking... is it possible that Laravel is actually amazing, and we're all just butthurt?
I should template that to:
> I've been thinking... Is it possible that is actually amazing, and we're all just butthurt?
 
Possible, but that never has stopped me from shouting is stupid
 
8:18 PM
I just realized I am guilty of having liked laravel once. I saw their website and it lured me really well. Sorry guys :(
 
Why the hate towards Laravel? genuinely interested.
 
Because of the design choices (or lack thereof) and the asshole lead
 
@EquinoxMatt Obfuscation of the core language. You don't learn PHP, you learn Laravel. Same with any framework
 
I agree Otwell can be a little bit, well controller/aggresive/defensive sometimes
@Machavity I agree with that also, but is that a reason not to use it?
 
@EquinoxMatt bad practices, pollution of terminology, ignorant community and creator is so far up his own ass that he should be able to see his tonsils
 
8:21 PM
Fair enough
 
@EquinoxMatt Not by itself, no. But if you don't learn the core language you pigeon hole yourself. And yet so many just jump in and learn frameworks first, and then can't do the basics
 
I agree with that, many Junior devs have to be reminded that Laravel or insert hot framework here hides many key concepts that you should know.
 
Could somebody please explain me why so many projects are still on sourceforge? Is it the moneyz?
 
God in a way I miss sourceforge and it saddens me what it has become
I used to have many happy hours trawling through there
 
Abe
@PeeHaa ever happened to you to have two cookies with the same name?
 
8:28 PM
@Abe No, but I assume it is possible
Even more so when they use a different path / domain
 
Abe
this is driving me insane. same domain, same path
 
Technically it should be possible to do it, but the user agent will just pick one AFAIK
 
@PeeHaa Didn't they repent of their adware ways?
 
Abe
nope, both are listed in the headers, but php picks just one, in $_COOKIE, clearly
 
@Machavity I hardly care. I don't trust those marketing / crapware whores of dice one tiny bit
@Abe Delete them both and see when you get them again
 
Anonymous
8:33 PM
Fun fact: cocur/slugify is the best PHP library in github.
 
Abe
also, seems to happen with chrome only
so you are right, could be the ua
 
@samayo How does it handle ☼?
 
Anonymous
@PeeHaa I don't know tbh. I just ran a simple algo and it was ranked the highest
 
Anonymous
On a side note, today is the 'yet-another-Dell XPS 13-link-from-samayo day'
 
Abe
@samayo iconv translit
 
Anonymous
8:43 PM
@Abe TIL :D
 
"GitHub" on a sd card :-)
> Failed to upload image, please try again!
Tnx chat...
 
Abe
@PeeHaa potato
 
Anonymous
very rotten potato
 
Abe
upside down potato
 
Anonymous
and inside out
 
Anonymous
8:54 PM
I would've preferred the description
 
Abe
@JoeWatkins @Sara do you guys know if icu has some functionality equivalent to iconv //TRANSLIT ?
 
> Password reset token just mailed to in**@***********jk.com
Wel tnx. Let me check the inbox of in**@***********jk.com
 
9:10 PM
oh wow. just had that eureka moment of passing a view object to a mustache template, and glimpsed of the saved time and possibilities. \o/
 
Abe
@FélixGagnon-Grenier a sign that you should be using php as template engine :P
 
I heard of mustache
at a conference on saturday, haven't checked it out yet
 
Abe
@Sara lol; and i even searched for it
 
hmmmwat? @Abe (I suck at understanding :S)
 
Abe
9:16 PM
@FélixGagnon-Grenier use plain php for templates, <?=$var?> rather than {{var}}
 
meh. finally got out of that
 
Abe
you were doing it wrong probably :P
 
(it might be very trivial, but I hate ide's undefined variable highlighting in templates)
maybe :p any example of proper usage?
 
Abe
/** @var $this MyView */ there you go, variables are hinted
 
:( phpstorm still doesn't have multiple column markers
 
9:18 PM
lol @me. I'm using arrays (and ugly extract()) most of the time, but I guess objects would work as well.
 
Abe
yeah working with hinted $this is much better
@PeeHaa would have phpstorm supporting use func and use const properly..
 
I'm not quite wrapping my head around having $this as the object in the php template.
 
// Minimum required to use $this in a template
class Template {
    public function render() {
        ob_start();
        include 'templateFile.phtml'; // $this in this file will refer to the instance of our Template object
        ob_end_clean();
    }
}
Not sure that output buffering is absolutely required... never tried it with this small of a script...
 
Yes. You don't want your render method to actually start outputting stuff
 
9:30 PM
Also ob_get_clean FTW
 
Yes, started ob_get_clean() and second guessed myself.
So instead of ob_end_clean(); that line should be return ob_get_clean();
 
@Ghedipunk you want some exception catching in there, as well as a clean up of the ob level. Something a bit like this: github.com/Danack/Jig/blob/master/src/Jig/JigBase.php#L111-L138
I'm putting that public as soon as I've written the documentation...
 
For reasons I cannot remember I had to do it in a finally block github.com/CodeCollab/Template/blob/master/src/Html.php#L65-L67
Think something to do with testing
I like your addPlugin approach I think
 
@PeeHaa exceptions don't clean up the ob level - if you have an exception get all the way to the top, the remaining output buffers are dumped to output.
 
9:46 PM
Should phpstorm be able to handle return types or is it still a WIP?
nvm found it
 
Had to look up what Mustache is... Is it just me, or do {{}} style template systems make anyone else sick?
 
Some people tend to like it. Me not so much
 
I got used to twig after a while.
 
@PeeHaa It handles return types decently but scalar types give it issues inside of namespaces.
 
It's a better option than exposing certain types of people to PHP and then thinking about sandboxing.
 
9:49 PM
Twig is where I learned to dislike those systems.
 
@LeviMorrison Issues meaning it just tells you the tyoe doesn't match I assume by looking at my screen?
type*
 
It basically thinks int is __NAMESPACE__\int
 
k graci
 
@Charles That's true... but in my opinion, that's what pair programming web design is for.
(One of the many reasons for pairing)
 
@ghedipunk what would you prefer? aside from <?= ?>
 
9:52 PM
@Ghedipunk True, but in cases like ours, our marketing team can do HTML fine but we do not want to ever have them accidentally entering actual PHP code in our system. It breaks enough on its own, thank you very much.
 
<?php echo ... ?> (I don't even like <?= ?>)
But yeah, in our team, all HTML passes our hands last, after the design types make their decisions for format. Anything after that comes straight from the DB, and HTML tags are all stripped except for a narrow range of white-listed ones.
Maybe that's why our main site looks like it's stuck in 2005...
 
@LeviMorrison namespace\int is an actual thing ;)
 
That's one way of staying under you column width:
> I prefer a right margin of 80 chars and it just gets really hard with 4 spaces.
 
Abe
10:18 PM
transliterator is cool. icu has nice stuff
 
@Andrea What's your god done now?
 
Abe
OH YOUR GOD
lol
does that actually surprise you? :D
 
But of course. We have to pay homage to our benefactor and eldritch horror in some small way, in exchange for such good information in said manual.
 
10:37 PM
It's a hell of a lot better than Python's.
2
 
Anonymous
Amen to that ^
 
Anonymous
And Mysql's btw
 
Every time I try to find something it's such a hassle to scan through junk. What does it return? What parameters are expected? "Um I don't know maybe it's somewhere else in the documentation."
 
where the is the source code for PHD?
 
Eg. try to find what the Python dict's "viewvalues" does.
 
10:43 PM
I am trying desperately to find it
phpdoc-base doesn't seem to contain it
 
@Andrea who would be the best person to ask?
 
Someone who's touched it. No idea who that is
Oh, I found it.
It's on GitHub of course
 
Abe
@rtheunissen mysql and python's doc use 100 bonus words for each word actually needed to be comprehensible even to a monkey
 
Writing documentation is hard stuff :/
 
mhm
@Abe Python's problem is usually the opposite
 
10:50 PM
@Andrea It's actually true. Most programming languages have outright terrible documentation.
 
@LeviMorrison Yeah, I know
 
Abe
it is? i don't know python but reading the documentation nearly killed me
 
Python often has single-line docs for a function or method, which is unhelpful
 
Abe
php's documentation is indeed neat most of times
 
Anonymous
@Andrea I am actually using more python than anything else these days, what exactly is its problem?, because I am curious.
 
10:52 PM
the problem is what I just described
 
Maybe they didn't hear you the first time?
 
Error validating server certificate for 'https://svn.php.net:443':
 - The certificate is not issued by a trusted authority. Use the
   fingerprint to validate the certificate manually!
Certificate information:
 - Hostname: *.php.net
 - Valid: from Mon, 03 Jun 2013 00:00:00 GMT until Thu, 02 Jun 2016 23:59:59 GMT
 - Issuer: COMODO CA Limited, Salford, Greater Manchester, GB
 - Fingerprint: fb:29:82:51:15:e9:74:06:5f:9a:f1:95:dd:9d:71:19:95:0c:0d:3d
(R)eject, accept (t)emporarily or accept (p)ermanently?
o.O
 
Anonymous
Ah, I thought you were referring to the language/
 
> Issued by COMODO
> Not trusted
 
Umm, we don't have an SSL certificate setup for svn.php.net
Not for web, anyway.
 
10:56 PM
Apparently we do?
@Sherif We do.
 
Who the heck did that?
That certificate is obsolete.
 
How so?
 
Abe
ok i might have a kinda functioning base of generics
 
@Andrea Because all the SSL certificates were supposed to be upgraded from Comodo a couple of years ago back when we were attacked. I don't know why that one is still in use.
Should probably forward that to security@
 
@Sherif it's also used for secure.php.net
@Sherif Do.
Also, while you're at it, make them release the damn post-mortem
 
11:01 PM
@Sherif Well, that's two years ago. So it's the new one.
 
WTF
Well at least the cipher suite on secure.php.net is correct.
heh
 
Abe
Foo3(Foo2(ROFL2(), Foo1(ROFL4())))->neww(); \m/
 
But seriously, WTF Ferenc!
 
Abe
no idea why it works, but it does!
 
11:03 PM
> Signature algorithm SHA1withRSA WEAK
 
Nobody ever configures that server properly, I swear.
 
PHP's mirrors system is a bit of a mess, no?
 
Who gives a crap about the mirrors. There's nothing mission critical there. But our servers should be secure.
 
quick question, i created a class named: class SessionHandler {//stuff} and was wondering if that name is reserved already? As i get cannot redeclare but there is no other class with that name that I have for it to give such an error.
 
11:07 PM
ah well that explains the error then !
thanks :D
 
@Sherif - You could put SessionHandler in its own namespace though right?
 
oh, sure enough
PHD renders things in-order
This will make void var_dump( mixed $value ) -> var_dump( mixed $value) : void hard
 
@EquinoxMatt You could if you're willing to fork the php source, provided you enough C and php internals, and are willing to live with a hacked up version of PHP that can never be upgraded.
Anything is possible when you put your mind to it.
 
@Sherif eigh, this is outdated. How can I updated it?
#lazyweb
 
11:17 PM
@marcio Is that a hint that you want me to update it or something?
 
nope, I'm asking how to updated it.
 
But wait, what's missing aside from PHP 7?
@marcio Do you have php-doc karma? If not there is an "edit" link on every page.
There were no new reserved words in 5.6 were there?
 
@Sherif - Sorry, slightly confused, you can't use any classes with the same name of the PHP class names, even if its in its own namespace?
 
@EquinoxMatt You can definitely put your classes in their own namespace, sure.
 
right, for a minute there I thought I got it all wrong
 
11:20 PM
@Sherif oh shiny, I've never involved with docs. For PHP 7 you can have class members with any name 3v4l.org/1YeXZ. I had the impression this was already documented.
 
@EquinoxMatt Well you said "put SessionHandler in its own namespace". I just assumed you meant the one that already exists ;) Was a bit ambiguous either way
@marcio Well it's not even released yet.
Typically we don't even document anything until months after the initial release, but hey you go ahead and break precedence. Be the hero!
 
really? there are many things documented already ^^
 
It's the things that aren't documented that you worry about. People tend to forget their patch that was sitting in master for 2 years finally made it out into the world and then people go to the docs and complain something is missing.
 
OMG that edit.php.net interface, so many bells and whistles :>
 
Little things.
@marcio oh yea, I typically try to avoid it. It's not exactly a user-friendly interface.
Nothing wrong with svn commit really
 
11:24 PM
is there a way to make a page specifically for PHP7? editing this page doesn't make much sense as it's still valid for 5.6-
 
But for the CLI-challenged, of course...
 
public function notXPath($tag, $depth) { /* {{{ */
LOL
 
@marcio Nope. We only have one page for all versions of PHP :) That's why we add the version information in the changelog section.
 
ok, ty for your help :)
 
Clearly no one bothered to add a changelog for this page
They just stuck the version information next to the keyword
:/
@marcio If it's specific to PHP 7 language change though it should really go to the migration guide and then possibly linked from the reserved words page if needed.
 
11:30 PM
really very tempted to do return type style correction with CSS
 
I think in the case of using reserved words as class names that would warrant its own language feature page.
 
nah, just class member names
 
@Sherif eh, that might be helpful for at-a-glance reading
 
I see 7.0rc7 is coming up in a few days... Provided no new bugs are found, will 7.0 be the next 7 release?
 
we do this on some other things too (like the list of CURL constants)
 
11:36 PM
@Andrea Why is the changelog not helpful "at-a-glance"?
At least it's chronologically ordered.
 
@Sherif you might see something on the list as reserved, but you'd have to check the changelog to know if it was at all applicable to your version of PHP
 
I'm talking about the changelog section in the manual, not the general changelog
You know like ... php.net/manual/en/…
 
Yes, I know what you're referring to
Oh, I suppose we could have a changelog in addition
 
Anyway, documenting 3 major releases all in one place seems a bit silly now. Someone really should have revisited this whole separate PHP 7 docs idea.
 
didn't we scrap the PHP 4 stuff?
you're right, though
@Sherif the fact you see what multiple versions do is quite useful, however
also, maintaining separate versions would be more work for translators?
 
11:47 PM
@Andrea The documentation stuff? Yea. But the version history is still maintained. Like domxml and all that PHP4 specific stuff was removed.
 
> resource fopen ( string $filename , string $mode [, bool $use_include_path = false [, resource $context ]] )
"fopen() expects parameter 4 to be resource, null given"
 
@Danack You explicitly supplied null, it sounds like?
 
Yes. That is what I was implying was shite.
 
Yea, it only ignores it if it was never there :/
Unfortunately that's how zend_parse_parameters works though, is my understanding.
 
@Sherif huh
@Sherif it's one of those sadly unfixable userland/internals disparities
 
11:53 PM
@Andrea We still include whether a function/method is available in PHP 4 or not at the top of each page.
 
though I suppose being able to have an optional parameter without a default value might be a good thing really
@Sherif ah yeah, I've seen that :/
 
@Andrea I can't think of the benefit? It certainly makes decorating functions be annoying.
 
@Danack if you want an optional parameter where any value would be valid and significant
a rare case but a plausible one
 
We seem to manage without that in userland.
Probably because of null being what it is - not confusable with any other type of value.
 
life would be simpler if we didn't have optional parameters
then we could curry
 
Abe
11:59 PM
documentation about unsupported versions shouldn't be removed?
 

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