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8:00 PM
here's a problematic case for you: int|float
 
@Andrea prefer int, use float if information is lost.
 
@musa That looks a lot like Sphinx with a custom theme. Not sure if it's actually that, but is very similar.
 
that one is simple.
 
Would we special-case it?
 
it doesn't seem that unintuitive to me
 
8:01 PM
@Andrea we'd have to… especially as we have widening from int to float in strict mode too.
 
Oh yeah, that makes things complicated :/
 
Or just wait to see that none of the big libraries are using weak types and start the move to deprecate it....
 
Also, in PHP, every conversion is valid even if the results are less than meaningful... (int)"Hello, World!" == 0...
 
@Danack not a fucking chance
have fun breaking 99% of PHP code
 
@Danack internally maybe. Especially inside libraries there's not so much reason to use weak types. but the users of the libs will use weak types.
 
8:03 PM
(probably more than that actually)
 
Abe
@Danack default to strict, at least
 
@Abe breaks things, again
 
Abe
i wouldn't care in a major version
 
Breaking is good, if done incrementally...
 
How can I match regex for below
"/data/dynamic_1/data/dynamic_2"
regex "^/data/.+/"
 
8:04 PM
we can't break everything in a major version, you know
 
Abe
we got rid of ext/mysql, we can get rid of everything
3
 
I want "/data/dynamic_1"
 
Python 3 merely broke the string type and yet that is killing it
 
@Abe Can we please get rid of mysql now
 
@Abe you can shim ext/mysql, though
 
8:05 PM
Python 2 => Python 3 (break everything)... bad. PHP 5 => 7 (finally destroy mysql_*)... good
 
@Andrea And for small values of broke at that
 
Abe
@PeeHaa ahah
 
@NikiC oh yeah, it didn't actually break it everywhere
 
@Abe I find your extreme optimism amusing
 
code mostly works the same, it's just problematic at the edges
 
8:06 PM
Well, I am sometimes too pro-BC-break… but even I don't exaggerate that much :-D
 
Honestly, I think Python's biggest hurdle with getting past Python 2 is finally just pushing it to End Of Life.
 
the problem is Py3 and Py2 are sufficiently different that you can't "just" switch, you have to update your code and make sure the libraries you use are updated too
PHP 4 and PHP 5 maybe had this problem, I don't know, I wasn't around (I don't know how much the OOP changes broke)
PHP 7 shouldn't have this problem for this most part
 
Well, there's at least one subtle break in every bigger codebase I've tried on PHP 7.
 
OOP? no, what broke a lot of code was the register globals feature
 
Abe
@marcio i'm a dreamer
 
8:09 PM
@marcio that wasn't removed in PHP 5.0 though
turned off by default, maybe? but you could turn it back on
 
@Andrea I think Py2/Py3 also has the problem that supporting both at the same time is non-trivial.
 
@bwoebi oh for sure, PHP 7 will break things, but they're mostly small
@NikiC yeah, and that's only starting to improve with 3.4 D:
 
@Machavity They actually do. Rogue wave seems to have quite a bit of experience in making software usable at enterprise scale. And PHP-FPM definitely needs some love in that regard, e.g. being able to add new pools to the server dynamically, rather than having to do a full restart of FPM /cc @PeeHaa
 
And if it is only a very minor change like substr() now potentially returning an empty string on substr("a", 1, 1) … (Not that I disagree with the change, it's just something which begins bugging and requires you some serious debugging work)
 
Supporting both PHP 5 and PHP 7 should be trivial (if you don't use the new features, of course)
 
8:10 PM
@NikiC Composer will be the only big obstacle :p
 
@bwoebi That would suck a lot less if we'd have errored on invalid parameters earlier
 
(it really doesn't seem to like the idea of 5.x stuff on 7.0, not sure how they're going to work around that...)
 
@Danack Which is totes nice. But "Strong synergies"...
 
@Andrea you mean stupid people using "php": "~5.4"?
 
user image
3
 
8:12 PM
@Andrea it took work to either make sure everything was kosher or to make it kosher, but really wasn't all that bad
 
It's a better set of synergies than what Zend were doing; writing engine core + also running certification schemes for a not particularly good framework.
 
@bwoebi no
 
@Andrea what then?
 
So, break things in stages... 7.0 adds the option to enable strong typing. Future version (7.3ish? 8.0?) could make that option a bit more global than just the current file... Another future version could add a deprecation notice for non-strong typing, with the option to explicitly define weak typing as enabled to suppress the deprecation... Then finally in the version codenamed Unobtainium, make enforce strong typing as default... say, PHP 23.2
 
@bwoebi Composer won't accept PHP 7 for >=5.4
@PaulCrovella huh
 
8:14 PM
@Andrea it … doesn't???
 
@bwoebi semver
major versions are incompatible
 
Everytime a vote fails, the version that feature was targeting becomes codenamed "Unobtanium".
 
@bwoebi They Graham Campbell really pushed for everyone to use ~ or ^ with version requirements. That's going to haunt them.
 
@Andrea It does...
 
@NikiC since when?!
 
8:15 PM
@Andrea there's a difference between ~5.4 and >=5.4
 
@Trowski Thankfully there is a cli arg to ignore it for the php version
 
/me flagellates himself the required number of times
 
hmm, maybe it complained because I was using a beta
 
I have come to the council to beg for your assistance!
 
that might be it
 
8:16 PM
@Andrea >= and ^ are not the same
 
@NikiC ah, okay
 
@Andrea That's probably it, you'd have to add "minimum-stability": "dev"
 
I have a thing that would either be an array (int-indexed collection of things) or an object (key/value pairs) (coming from JS). How do I detect the difference?
 
Abe
bad ass css only iphone 6 codepen.io/fbrz/pen/vlrnd
 
@Trowski actually there's a bit a difference between using ~ or ^ for libraries or the engine though. A major version in PHP only rarely impacts much, while a major version for a small library guarantees a break with a high probability.
 
8:18 PM
is_array is true for the latter.
 
@SomeKittens Can't you just turn it all into an array instead?
 
@PeeHaa That's what I'm trying to do
 
@SomeKittens How do you get the data from js? What format?
 
@bwoebi True, but many libraries have switched from >= to ^ for the PHP requirement too.
 
     if (!is_array($kittens)) {
        die('asdf');
        $telemetry = array($kittens);
    }
the die isn't triggered
 
8:19 PM
@Trowski but still, some people live in their idealized world of developing the real world isn't following.
 
@PeeHaa either, see standard complaints about work project not following best practices
 
@Trowski haven't seen that much… I guess it's a very recent change then?
 
@SomeKittens No :) I meant how is data send to php from js
 
@SomeKittens In PHP, it's safest to treat all arrays as hash maps, whether they're numerically indexed or have named keys... You can even mix numerical keys and named keys.
 
@Abe That's just... crazy
 
8:20 PM
@Ghedipunk I've noticed and I hate it.
 
@Abe well done, now rotate it.
 
@PeeHaa echo json_encode later on
 
Abe
@marcio :P
 
@SomeKittens pass true as second param to convert it all to arrays
 
@PeeHaa that's not the problem
 
8:21 PM
If for whatever reason you always want 0 based numerical indexed arrays use array_values
 
@SomeKittens Is your goal to have only numerically indexed arrays?
 
@bwoebi Honestly I haven't looked into it much, but this PR makes me think a few probably switched.
 
@Ghedipunk I have a variable that's an array of Things. I am handed something that is either a Thing or an array of Things. I want to add said new data to my original variable.
 
@Trowski well… the PR is from Campbell…
 
@SomeKittens It would be better to change the API. Make it so that you are alway passed an array of thing, or have two separate end points. One that accepts one thing, the other that accepts an array of things.
Having something be either an array or not, depending on the phase of the moon is ......bad.
 
8:25 PM
@SomeKittens That's a lot of things doing lots of things with other things... If you can't control the API as Danack suggests, is_scalar will at least tell you which code branch to go to next to normalize the data.
 
Abe
> Failed to read auto-increment value from storage engine
i'm sick of your shit mysql
 
6 mins ago, by SomeKittens
@PeeHaa either, see standard complaints about work project not following best practices
 
(But yeah, really, you should be passing only a certain type of thing)
 
I mean, if we really were following best practices, we wouldn't be using PHP in the first place.
 
@SomeKittens But you're still writing the API. It's not something that is set in stone. Just avoid the problem in the first place and tell anyone who wants to use the API that you have to pass an array of things.
Always.
That's so easy to do in Javascript instead of foo, they pass you [foo].
 
8:28 PM
Right, in the best case, I'd be able to do that. And in the best case, this wouldn't be written in PHP. And yet here we are.
 
ThW
@SomeKittens Don't blame PHP
 
Sooooo... Instead of throwing an InvalidArgumentException, you're being passive aggressive at random people who are trying to help you?
 
@ThW I'm not blaming, I'm saying it's not the best tool for the job in this case.
 
Something something 'more like you're not the best tool.'
 
8:31 PM
@Danack Zing!
 
LGL
How the hell Instagram get 70KB with that quality on image file size? :/
 
I have a 'beginner' question I guess, but I wasn't sure where else to post. Could someone explain to me how the array is called as a class variable? ideone.com/97Vrjx
 
@Programmer your question isn't entirely clear, but try reading php.net/manual/en/language.variables.variable.php and see if that answers it.
 
@Danack Okay, maybe it's some confusion I have coming from python.
 
s/called/accessed/ - maybe?
calling in php is only used for functions and methods.
 
8:38 PM
I guess called was a bad term to use there, accessed is what I meant.
 
@Programmer Variable variables are a pain... {$foo->$baz[1]} becomes {$foo->bar} because the expression to the right of the -> gets evaluated first.
$$baz[1] == $bar == "bar" as well.
 
Okay...that's what I wasn't getting. It all makes sense now. Thanks :D
 
@Ghedipunk E_PHP5 (uniform variable syntax RFC)
 
$foo->$bar in your example can (and probably should, to get rid of ambiguity) be written as $foo->bar because $bar == "bar"
 
Yeah, this is in the OFFICIAL php documentation...
 
8:42 PM
And yes, as @bwoebi points out, that's a PHP5 construct...

PHP7's results are:
I am bar.

Notice: Array to string conversion in /in/m88aO on line 11

Notice: Undefined property: foo::$Array in /in/m88aO on line 11
 
Alright, well I'm going to tackle this PHP5 beast first. Thanks for clearing that up for me :)
 
@NikiC, am I right that get_gc called right before zval destroying?
 
@zaq178miami It's called when the GC runs
The zval may or may not be destroyed after that
 
@NikiC, so i just pass gc all my internal zvals and let it decide what to do, right?
 
@zaq178miami yes
 
8:57 PM
@NikiC, e.g. if object going to be GCed, that zvals may (or definitely?) will be destroyed too?
 
If the GC finds that the object is unreachable, it will be destroyed.
But not generally
If it's still reachable it will stay alive
 
@NikiC I closed bugs.php.net/70710 as NaB, but I honestly wonder whether we should make traits have their own scope (additionally!) when dispatching $this calls, so that we don't need to copy methods with their original name too...
I haven't analyzed how far this technically is feasible (would need some refactoring), but just from a pure theoretical standpoint I wonder.
It'd be basically then an additional private scope for traits… The only potential problem would be executing callables, but when we get a proper closure($callable) syntax, it won't be that much of an issue anymore.
 
ThW
@bwoebi you mean something like grafts? wiki.php.net/rfc/…
 
But we'll still have the name clash issue with properties… so, well, it's probably not going to be an option? … or, well, that could be handled just like it were a parent class.
@ThW yeah… that looks more like what I always envisioned traits to be.
 
ThW
:-)
 
9:10 PM
well, traits already are used as these grafts most of the time with having local state etc. All what's missing is actually proper separation of the scopes where necessary in the VM for that.
 
@NikiC, but GC will not increment refcount, right? Sounds stupid, but after three days I want to make sure I understand what goes on in a right way.
 
instead of flattening all the traits together in one single zend_class_entry.
 
@zaq178miami It will temporarily do multiple increments and decrements
The GC is pretty complicated...
 
@zaq178miami but after GC run refcount will remain unchanged (except in case the object needs to be freed as there's only unreferenced cycles remaining.)
 
I added a section to the void return type RFC about the name choice: wiki.php.net/rfc/void_return_type#why_call_it_void_and_not_null
 
9:13 PM
@NikiC it's the kind of code I prefer to not touch except really necessary...
 
the main argument is really just that "most languages do it this way, we already document PHP this way, why should we do something different?"
 
@Andrea And how do I indicate that I'd like to return null specifically?
 
@bwoebi Last time I was working on GC issues I added a large bunch of tracing macros
 
@bwoebi you don't and I can't see why you'd want to
 
9:14 PM
@bwoebi You don't, because that's stupid.
 
@NikiC wasn't there a ZEND_GC_DEBUG macro for that? (was that what you did?)
 
That's on the same level as the (unset) cast.
 
we don't really treat null like its own type anyway
I mean yes you can check for it like any other
 
@bwoebi that's what void does xD
 
but we use it like C's null pointers or C#'s nullables, as if null is part of another type
 
9:15 PM
@bwoebi The >1 parts
Even with that, it's still f*ing confusing though :D
 
@Andrea not having a BC break… like a method which before returned a certain object or null… and then only returning null for now.
 
@bwoebi omit the type hint? specify certain-object-or-null and just return null?
 
void eventually could mean that you can't use the value (there could be checks for when the function isn't called dynamically.
 
I mean, to put it another way, what would you in C?
@bwoebi I don't want that to happen and I don't think it will
 
@Andrea In C? return void* ^^
 
9:17 PM
raising an E_NOTICE might be a good idea, that's been suggested
 
@NikiC, when I add internal zval to object initially, I have to Z_ADDREF it, but later dtor'ing or Z_DELREF'ing is GC's responsibility?
 
(though we people often elevate those to exceptions, so it'd be a bit risky. save it for PHP 8 :p)
 
@zaq178miami No, the GC is an additional mechanism
 
will void be overridable through inheritance? if yes, I'm definitely against it.
 
Can we just use null please? sigh.
 
9:18 PM
Freeing it is still your responsibility (e.g. in free_obj)
 
@Andrea I just want to point out that practically all of the responses think void is more confusing than null.
 
The GC only handles the special case of cyclic references
 
When I last checked it was near 100% (Haven't looked in a few hours).
 
@NikiC ah I see.
 
@NikiC, sure, freeing is mine, but should i dtor'ing or delref'ing in free handler?
 
9:19 PM
@LeviMorrison if it's so confusing, why do we use it everywhere?
 
@zaq178miami you should dtor
 
@LeviMorrison but there's maybe a bias that mostly people who are complaining speak up.
 
Why don't we say null in PHP documentation?
It doesn't seem to cause confusion there...
 
@Andrea that was a very evasive response, please address the point
 
@NikiC, my case is exactly about cyclic references. Got it. Thanks.
 
9:20 PM
@bwoebi Sure. Response bias.
 
@marcio As there is no smaller type than void, it's is not and will not be overridable by inheritance, even if we properly support variance
 
@LeviMorrison some of them do
 
@LeviMorrison If you haven't noticed: Discussions usually contain dissenting voices only.
 
@NikiC would the same happen with null?
 
@Andrea Well, back then when I learned PHP I though null and void would be the same … (as functions with return type void actually returned null)
 
9:22 PM
I suspect if the RFC added null, a bunch of people would be asking why it wasn't called void
 
@NikiC Sure, but in this case we have many dissenting opinions as to one or two very vocal voices.
 
@bwoebi in a sense they are
 
And yes, I already acknowledged response bias.
 
it's weird really
 
@Andrea well, then let's not confuse people even more and use the obvious null.
 
9:23 PM
@LeviMorrison Note how neither me, nor Anthony, nor any of the other people in this room who prefer to use void have written a mail. You simply don't answer if you already agree.
 
to me it sounds like the void vs null debate is just being dismissed... right now null has all the advantages except for the compile time check.
 
@marcio Right now void has all the advantages
 
@NikiC But at the same time I prefer null and haven't written a mail either.
 
@NikiC can you make a list? (not provoking, that's a serious request)
 
By means of being what everybody including PHP always uses everywhere
 
9:23 PM
@NikiC I think you are ignoring the responses on the list.
 
@NikiC Disagree…
 
I think that's my biggest frustration. Andrea in particular does not seem to acknowledge the opposing points.
 
@LeviMorrison I've read them and they recycle all the points I am already aware of.
 
@NikiC, @bwoebi, @JoeWatkins Thank you guys, get_gc object handnler did the job. I really appreciate your help.
 
@zaq178miami =)
 
9:24 PM
@zaq178miami Great!
 
hope, i will release v8 extension with php7
 
@NikiC Except even more people have voiced concern and you don't seem to care.
I understand that what other people think does not mean you should think the same.
 
ooh, yet, Swift does do what I thought
 
However, I feel like the comments this time are simply being ignored.
 
func foo() -> Void {

}

let blah = foo()
 
9:26 PM
@LeviMorrison They aren't being ignored, we just have a fundamental disagreement about the issue
 
Completely legal Swift code (though it does give you a warning that assigning () to blah is probably not what you want - makes sense!)
 
It's not something that's going to change by somebody saying "but we implicitly return null!" another time
 
In Swift, Void is just an alias for the empty tuple
 
@NikiC Ok, so except for the compile time check, what are the advantages of void over null ?
 
@marcio precedent for one
 
9:27 PM
@LeviMorrison Oh, well… I know that feeling. But it actually isn't that they don't want to acknowledge the opposing points, they just think their opinions on this topic are more correct (after all, these discussions are mostly subjective). … I guess we had a bit the same feeling when I did my short closures RFC.
 
everyone is familiar with void, because we use it everywhere
 
I just am fundamentally thinking ~> is superior to ==>… that's all.
 
yes it doesn't do the same thing as in C, but it's been different in PHP for ages and people don't seem to mind
 
@Andrea except that following the precedent would be really weird as the void functions is still returning null.
 
@marcio no it wouldn't
in PHP, void functions always return null (or in PHPDoc's case they can return anything and we don't care :p)
that's just how PHP does things
 
9:28 PM
@marcio If you disregard the compile-time check, then it's really just one word over another. At which point familiarity and continuity wins for me.
 
@bwoebi I understand the similarity. However one reason I haven't pushed forward with function () => expr is that I want to re-examine () => expr.
It's not fallen on deaf ears.
 
the null argument would be convincing to me if void was new, but it's not really
 
Whereas this new summary section is still highly opinionated.
 
It's really weird how nobody ever complained about use of void in the documentation and now it's this huge issue...
 
@LeviMorrison you want () => expr to be the syntax?
 
9:29 PM
@NikiC another question, is the compile time check really all that bag of chips?
 
@Andrea Maybe.
 
=> is for arrays, hands off :p
 
@marcio Also, I don't see why we can't do compile time checks for null.
 
@NikiC A big point for me is that using null is going to make much less problems when we'll have union types. [Well, for those who don't want union types, yea…]
 
@LeviMorrison what if it's not a constant value?
 
9:30 PM
@marcio It's not terribly important, but I think it's a non-trivial advantage
 
@Andrea Disallowing expressions and variables is still fine…
 
@LeviMorrison that's much harder because $var can be null and you can't really track $var.
 
@bwoebi it wouldn't affect union types
 
@bwoebi "Much less problems" meaning "save one error check"
 
void wouldn't be accepted in unions
null probably would be, or you'd have nullables, or something
 
9:31 PM
@Andrea it would for some part… : Foo | null is okay, but : null isn't ????
 
it's not awfully complicated
@bwoebi well yes, because null is an oddball :p
 
@marcio So disallow it. Why does null have to be different in this respect?
 
@bwoebi As I've said before, like 10 times, this is the same as function(Foo|null $a) being okay but function(null $a) not being okay... ... ... ... ...
 
@Andrea ah the special rules… Well, that's where I disagree.
 
And if you want the latter to be okay then ... well, I just can't help you there
 
9:32 PM
@NikiC It's not the same. Parameters and returns are not the same. They are only similar.
 
@NikiC I think it's non trivial too ^^. But the main use for void or null is to enhance interfaces and both would do it anyway. I have this list:
 
@NikiC I see no reason to disallow it (except maybe for pragmatic reasons)
 
@bwoebi I think nullable types are a better fit for how we actually tend to use null in PHP
 
@NikiC After all, null is also just a type…
 
we use null in place of some other type, like a nullable pointer or primitive in other languages
zend_parse_parameters has a special flag for thing-or-null
in a sense nullables are already a thing, we'd just be encoding them into the userland typehinting system
 
9:34 PM
@LeviMorrison If you're okay with forbidding it in the one case (which imho you should be), then you shouldn't be raising a huge fuss about forbidding it in another, similar case. It's actually more consistent: You forbid it everywhere, rather than just in one case.
 
@Andrea it has… but that's probably from function foo(Bar $bar = null)
 
@bwoebi not just that
 
also !
 
internal functions can let you specify a string or null for a non-optional parameter, if they want
 
Void:
1) full compile time check (this may change if we track use on expressions, though it's not really an issue)
2) other languages use void (but in most languages void is not null)

Null:
1) functions declared with `function(): void {}` will still return null (so void is a little lie) this favors null
2) null interacts better with union types
3) ---null is already reserved--- not really important
4) null would have practically same effects on enhancing interfaces as void does
 
9:36 PM
I would be surprised if anyone has a class named void
maybe a lawyer...
 
@marcio I disagree with 3) (that it is non-trivial). For everything else, yes.
 
@marcio you're missing "PHP documentation, both internals and userland, already uses void everywhere"
 
I do. It's my wrapper for /dev/null. It's web scale.
 
^ stupid markdown, let's discard Null#3
 
anyway, I am itching to go off and play a certain video game for a bit
talk to you all later
 
9:37 PM
@Andrea that's as horrible as point Null#3 so let's discard it too
 
@Andrea have fun
 
@marcio If you drop 4) from that list (as it applies to both), you're left with two points for each ^^
 
@NikiC Why can't null have compile time checks?
 
@NikiC yea, this point should be for both, I cant edit the list anymore :)
 
@LeviMorrison It can, technically. I think semantically it would be a bad fit
E.g., it would be kinda really weird if we forbid return null; if you hinted against null...
 
9:40 PM
@NikiC That one is not really an issue.
It's probably a one or two line diff.
 
@NikiC to me Void#2 - "other languages use void" - looks really weak in the light of Null#1
 
@marcio As Andrea mentioned, other languages use Void#2 in the Null#1 way too
 
not surprisingly the RFC uses it as the main justification against null wiki.php.net/rfc/void_return_type#why_call_it_void_and_not_null :/
 
@LeviMorrison Not quite.
Unless you also want to allow return CONSTANT_WITH_VALUE_NULL;
 
I didn't quite follow – is this because of constant propagation?
 
9:42 PM
You're pretty lucky you can even check for null -- before PHP 7 that null might actually be an int(42) :P
@LeviMorrison yes. Right now you could still catch this before folding
 
Well, I'm pretty excited about potential work on type analysis for 7.1 or 7.2 … they could then do some checking for all types.
 
@bwoebi Type analysis in the compiler?
 
When do we do the propagation? Is it an AST pass or ..?
 
@LeviMorrison no, it's interleaved. That's why currently you can easily catch it before folding ;)
Just pointing out the caveat, it's not actually a technical issue. Will just make the code ugly, nothing more
 
@NikiC maybe… Dmitry said he wants to go that way down, maybe even to JIT compilation (AFAIK no tracing JIT though).
 
9:46 PM
I wish we had cleaner passes. I realize it would slow us down but it really sucks to work with.
 
@bwoebi I was planning to do some PHP compiler work for bachelor thesis ... but turned out that the compiler working group is closing down this semester :(
 
@NikiC You have to do a bachelor thesis?
 
@NikiC uch :-(
 
@LeviMorrison Yes. How could I not have to do one?
 
Many places here in the US do not require a thesis for undergraduate degrees.
 
9:48 PM
@bwoebi So there's only one person working on compilers now at my university and his work is on auto-parallelizing compilers for distributed systems -- so not quite PHP :D
 
@NikiC You know, this is a really common research topic and yet I am surprised how little progress is made.
 
auto-parallelize PHP
 
@NikiC that… sounds interesting too, but yeah, not quite related
 
I work in High Performance Computing (HPC) so I hear about it all the time :D
 
@LeviMorrison you mean auto-parallelizing? Looks like a really hard topic when stopping to only consider trivial cases...
 
9:53 PM
@LeviMorrison you mean disallow return $var when return type is :null ?
 
@marcio Potentially, yes.
 
@bwoebi Yes, definitely. It's pretty much the most advanced compiler optimization you can have
 
@NikiC What language is he working with?
 
@NikiC yep… you need full program flow analysis with all possible interdependencies before you can even start… which by itself alone is already a very hard problem.
 
@LeviMorrison humm, wise case... that works. I think return; and literal return null; should be allowed, all the rest is blocked.
 
9:57 PM
My personal take on auto-parallelization is that it would be about 10x simpler in a language that tracks side effects like some functional languages do.
Knowing that certain things are pure much earlier in the process can really simplify things.
 
@LeviMorrison I'm not really familiar with his work, but I think it's C.
 
@NikiC Yeah… it would be the most valuable language if you are successful, but C is not a good language for this stuff.
 
@LeviMorrison yeah… but now begin to consider cases with like indirect branches (calls via function pointers)
 
@bwoebi But if the function parameter is required to be pure it's no different.
In C you definitely cannot do this.
 
trivial example is something like a VM: you determine what function pointers to call and then call it in an executor.
 

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