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user1804599
7:00 PM
why would anyone want a python job
 
because it's easy?
 
user1804599
no, it's difficult
 
user1804599
because there's no type system
 
Yes there is
 
@elyse You get to eat free mice all day, and randomly bite people.
 
user1804599
7:01 PM
yeah, right
 
user1804599
a type system with one type
 
You just don't specify the type explicitly
 
user1804599
very useful
 
user1804599
well, imagine having to specify the one type that there is explicitly all the time
 
user1804599
that'd be, like, Untyped Java.
 
user1804599
7:03 PM
Value x = "A";
Value y = x + 42; // runtime error good job
 
"one type"? I honestly don't know what you mean. Python has all the normal data types, int, str, list, etc.
 
user1804599
those aren't types
 
Yes, they are
For example:
class SomeSpecializedDict(dict):
    ...
Or:
 
Ell
@elyse m8 yeh they are
just dynamic
 
user1804599
no
 
7:04 PM
class SomeSpecializedList(list):
    ...
@elyse yes
 
user1804599
lemme find this article that describes it nicely
 
your mum
4
 
@elyse It's just a lazily compiled language, and the type checking is lazy
 
user1804599
cs.cmu.edu/~rwh/plbook/book.pdf chapter 18 "Dynamic Typing"
 
@milleniumbug urrrggh
This again
 
user1804599
7:09 PM
Here's a type checker for Python programs:
 
user1804599
def is_well_typed(python_program):
    return True
 
@sehe shhh... i'm playing devil's advocate
 
Did that ever work well in the lounge?
 
user1804599
Devil's avocado.
 
user1804599
Unrelated, here's a type checker for C++ programs:
 
user1804599
7:11 PM
def is_well_typed(cxx_program):
    return True
 
user1804599
Because if it weren't well-typed, then it wouldn't be a C++ program. :P
 
Actually, here's a real Python type checker: github.com/ceronman/typeannotations
It only checks function annotations, but yeah
 
user1804599
That doesn't check types, but value classes.
 
No, it does check types, for example:
@typechecked
def f(x: int) -> int: return x * x
 
user1804599
those aren't types, see link above
 
7:14 PM
Then:
>>> f(1)
1
And:
>>> f("foo")
Traceback (most recent call last):
...
TypeError: Incorrect type for "a"
 
>>> ' ' * ' '
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
TypeError: can't multiply sequence by non-int of type 'str'
just saying, dumb example
 
How is that a dumb example? It's pretty clear that that would throw an error.
 
user1804599
class mismatch, not a type error
 
user1804599
TypeError is a misleading name.
 
It throws an error regardless
 
7:17 PM
Not... Really.
 
user1804599
yes, but that doesn't make it a type error
 
You can't multiply a string by another string, hence the TypeError.
 
facebook is down
 
user1804599
I never said you didn't get errors on nonsense operations in untyped languages.
 
Ell
@MarcoA. I thought it was just me
 
7:18 PM
@elyse I know that
 
@Ell check out the #facebookdown hashtag on twitter
 
Ell
yeah just saw it
 
user1804599
but calling them type errors is wrong, precisely because there are no/there is only one type.
 
There isn't just one type.
 
user1804599
there is
 
7:18 PM
No
 
@elyse Well, you pretty much don't.
 
user1804599
and it's the type of all values
 
Python is dynamically typed; it is not untyped.
 
That ^^
 
lol morons trying to advertise their company: "#facebookdown? With competent people like us it wouldn't happen - contact us at xxx@xxx.com"
 
7:19 PM
Python is shit, without the.
 
Xeo
Python is nice
 
user1804599
Dynamically typed is a subset of untyped
 
No it isn't
 
user1804599
again, see the chapter of the paper I linked. it explains it nicely and in detail
 
they're mutually exclusive.
 
Xeo
7:20 PM
I wouldn't personally use it for any serious kind of work or larger project, but it's still a nice language.
 
user1804599
also chapter 17 if you're confused about the equivalence of untyped and unityped languages
 
user1804599
or well, "book" apparently
 
Dynamically typed just means that the types are checked at run-time, not compile-time.
 
I could do, but I won't.
 
There are still types.
 
7:20 PM
it's nothing more than a random authority.
 
@EthanBierlein no
 
that dude is not available to back up anything he may have written, so he can't participate.
 
what the hell is STL2
 
@Rapptz Star Trek Legacy 2
 
user1804599
@Rapptz Lavavej Junior.
 
Ell
7:22 PM
python is duck typed
 
@elyse Leave out the "dynamically" for the moment and just consider "typed is a subset of untyped", and think about whether that makes sense by itself. Adding a modifier to "typed" doesn't change the fact that the basic concept doesn't make sense.
 
user1804599
@Ell you are cuck typed
 
Ell
@elyse yes bull
 
> The supposed opposition between typed and untyped
languages turns out to be illusory. In fact, untyped languages are special cases of typed
languages with a single, pre-determined recursive type. Far from being untyped, such
languages are uni-typed.
 
user1804599
@JerryCoffin It indeed doesn't make sense, and that's because the term "dynamic typing" is misleading.
 
7:23 PM
gah. fuck this
 
@EthanBierlein A careful enough type system (that’s 'type' as in 'static type', nothing like what Python does) can allow you to make statements about a program, such as 'this program is well-typed and will not throw an error'. Languages such as Python do something else entirely.
 
i.e. the term 'untyped' is BS, according to this author
 
user1804599
Funny how "dynamic programming" is also a silly word.
 
@EthanBierlein yeah that's how most convos go here
both sides are too stubborn so it goes nowhere
welcome btw
 
Xeo
How I learned it:
-- the one type in dynamically typed languages
data TheType = AnInt Int | ABool Bool | AChar Char | AString String | ...
 
7:24 PM
hmm
 
What does the strong/weak axis mean when about types? Saw it in a talk someone linked.
 
just noticed one of those stupid ads about earning $18,000 per month
 
Is it about casts?
 
then it changed to £18,000 per month
do those people not know about exchange rates?
 
@JohanLarsson Weak makes implicit casts or something.
 
7:25 PM
at least pretend you have something
 
Xeo
@JohanLarsson how quick one thing converts to another without user intervention, is the general notion most people use, I think
 
@Xeo Doesn’t work. Even with polymorphic variants, because polymorphic variants give you fine-grained typing that dyntyped languages don’t let you do anyway.
 
@JohanLarsson it's whatever you want it to be
 
@Puppy they do! They have human audience and their greed
 
maybe it is in the same corner as covariance
 
7:25 PM
@Puppy What difference do exchange rates make when it's nonsense from the beginning?
 
Ell
@JohanLarsson "weaker" means more implicit conversion
IIRC
 
@JohanLarsson It's the equivalent of the Borg assimilation resistance index, as divulged by Seven of Nine.
 
user1804599
@JohanLarsson "Strong typing" and "weak typing" have no proper definition. Avoid those terms.
 
none at all, but I imagine that if you want to pretend it's not nonsense, including them might help
 
Xeo
7:26 PM
@LucDanton hm
 
Sketchup on Mac is weird
 
user1804599
When someone uses them, ask them what exactly they mean by them.
 
ty sirs, nice consensus
 
it looks and works different for some reason
 
@Xeo Well, it works with that plain old union type if it’s a language with no user-defined non-types :D
 
Xeo
7:27 PM
@LucDanton why not? I don't quite see where it would break down
 
@Xeo \x -> case x of { SomeTag -> Nothing; r -> Just r } has a type such as [ SomeTag; r] -> Maybe [r] which is more precise than what you would get in the actual language, i.e. Any -> Any.
There’s very little interesting to say about a language like Python from a type theoretic point of view. I would like to be shown otherwise, but trying to shoehorn type theory into it is a waste of time.
 
user1804599
 
@EthanBierlein it is
 
@JohanLarsson Usually, one of them is "type regime I like", and the other is "type regime I don't like", but which is which varies with the speaker. Oh, except that in a lot of cases, the actual characteristics of which the speaker [dis]approves may easily have nothing to do with types per se, but it's something somebody's heard about a language they [dis]like.
 
@JerryCoffin are you the same jcoffin in reddit?
 
7:34 PM
This conversation has put me in the mind to consider ...shall we say, 'esoteric' type systems.
 
like what
 
@elyse Well, cruise speed for modern airliners is about 850 km/h. 747 hits 920 km/h.
 
user1804599
C++
 
@elyse Not really - if you read his lifestyle, he basically lives in a hostel.
 
7:35 PM
Statically-typed languages are, well, static. Dynamic languages presumably do some sort of logic to determine whether or not dispatching a method against a particular instance is valid or not (I have not looked into how dynamic languages work)
 
@MarcoA. I do post on Reddit once in a while, but not very often. I'm not sure if there are any other accounts under the same name (though I can't quite imagine anybody deciding to try to impersonate me).
 
@JerryCoffin yeah, strong/weak is unfortunate like that. Dynamic/static is more neutral.
 
For most of those flights, nearly after takeoff, aircraft starts descent preparations. Admittedly, none of them have the chance to reach cruise altitude. But still, worse case scenario 2-3 hours.
 
That logic would seem to be fairly straightforward - if the instance has ever had something that matches the dispatch assigned to it, it's valid. (I'm really mangling the terminology here)
 
@JerryCoffin was referring to this.. /cpp must be an interesting channel on reddit if there are such posts
 
7:36 PM
@TomW this mostly makes sense. And your point is?
 
@MarcoA. Yeah, that was me.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't really have one, it's a germ of an idea. Basically if the logic is simple, one could also devise logic which is complicated
 
@JohanLarsson More neutral? Sure. A lot more neutral? We could only wish.
 
Wacky evaluations going on at runtime to determine what actually gets executed. Dynamic inheritance, why the hell not
 
@MarcoA. laffo
 
7:39 PM
@TomW have you ever written a Javascript program?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I've tinkered with js, yes
 
Lounge<TakeAShitOnC++AndTalkAboutLiterallyEverythingElse>
 
@TomW then it's pretty much what you're describing. Also Lua.
 
@TomW this is a good place to write that you hated it
 
Where's the revolutionary part of your idea?
 
7:40 PM
I didn't claim any such thing
 
Apple set the precedent that everything is revolutionary if you say it is revolutionary.
 
ideas typically have something new to them
 
It's new to me
 
Well, it's delete to me.
 
so you've reinvented dynamic languages
 
7:40 PM
And I'd imagine that JS and Lua have at least a pretense of making sense
 
I, uh... Wanna fucking biscuit?
 
Lua does
JS does not.
 
Yes, please.
 
@ElimGarak More recently they set the precedent that it's revolutionary if relatively few people noticed it much before you stole it.
 
@Puppy ALL HAIL THE ALMIGHTY HAS SPOKEN
 
7:41 PM
sounds good
 
I'm going to the JS room to tell them all they can go home
 
send me your money whilst you're at it
 
@JerryCoffin Even more hilariously, iPad Pro has nothing on Surface Pro. :D
 
works for me
 
@ElimGarak Apple integration
 
7:42 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I think he was referring to upsides
 
this is an upside
also dedicated Adobe and other apps
 
Also, I am running OS X on the Surface Pro. OS X > iOS
 
exclusive to the iPad
 
Ah. This is what JS calls Prototype, isn't it?
 
@ElimGarak How does OSX cope with touch and pen?
 
7:42 PM
Just done a quick google. You can do more retarded things with it than I anticipated
 
I of course agree that OSX > iOS.
 
@TomW Prototype.js is so old, even my company is moving away from it
 
@BartekBanachewicz Not well yet, kexts are in early development.
 
@Puppy not prototype.js, dumbass, JS prototypal mechanism
 
But for something never intended, it is amazing.
 
7:43 PM
yes I know that, moron.
 
@ElimGarak funny
@Puppy there's shitload of things you don't know. Typically I assume you don't know something.
since you're so reluctant to learn anything outside your little comfort zone
 
Wellp, I am going to go focus on writing some code while you guys stop the namecalling and get back to your normal warm selves.
 
to be more accurate, there's simply no reason to believe that the outside is any better than the inside.
 
I think dependent typing is the future
 
I'm actually doing modelling but this sketchup is driving me mad
 
7:45 PM
Many things do
 
it will wreck both typical dynamic typing systems and typical static typing systems
 
@Puppy I don't even want to know what reasoning for that behaviour is going inside of your poor head.
 
user1804599
@milleniumbug Value-dependent types are absolutely fascinating.
 
I never signed up to be a psychologist
 
well, it's really simple
it's called step 1, observe thing, step 2, evaluate thing, step 3, expend resources if justified
 
7:45 PM
@sehe I started F5-polling at a low frequency :)
 
but unfortunately I have to deal with people sometimes
@Puppy since you're bad at 1 and 2, that explains things
 
@JohanLarsson yeah. It will work. Current status: reviewing my live recorded sessions for work (can't share)
 
@elyse I guess that what he means by dependent typing
 
user1804599
Me too.
 
I have yet to observe superior results posted by anyone else in a comparable situation
 
7:46 PM
@milleniumbug what's a "typical" static typing system? :) Also, how's your Idris/Agda going?
@Puppy I've just told you you're bad at observing things. Try observing what I write harder.
 
that is ultimately irrelevant.
 
impression: http://paste.ubuntu.com/12604924/.
It's part of my courtesy "knowledge transfer" in which I build and leave my company a VM with a working dev env for the shit I was "champion" of
 
user1804599
Value-dependent determinism in Mercury would also be incredibly nice.
 
@Puppy great. Now let us proceed with the dependent typing discussion that's actually getting interesting.
@elyse what's Mercury?
 
indeed
I guess that random insults don't detract from it but simple discussion does?
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz logic language.
 
@fredoverflow lol
@elyse like Prolog?
 
user1804599
Yea but typed
 
user1804599
and pure
 
sounds cool.
but I have to get my rust going atm
 
7:49 PM
@elyse Your new project?
 
it's soooo similar to Haskell
it's basically Haskell with implicit IO and more convenient pointers and raw resources
 
Rust is similar to Haskell? Rustell?
 
of course it is
well it's much closer to Haskell than to dunno C++
 
Does Rust have immutable collections?
 
user1804599
The determinism of div (division) in Mercury is "det" meaning it always succeeds with exactly one value. Value-dependent determinism would allow the determinism of div to depend on the divisor ("det" (one result) if the compiler can prove it's non-zero; "semidet" (zero or one result) if the compiler can't prove anything about the divisor; "failure" (no results) if the compiler can prove the divisor is zero).
 
7:51 PM
@fredoverflow I'd think it does. Don't know much in practice about it yet.
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow no
 
user1804599
 
freddylang.org
 
user1804599
lol :p
 
slang.org (HTTP 302 to python.org)
 
user1804599
7:52 PM
bad pun
 
@Puppy dunno, maybe I'd be more inclined to discuss with you if you didn't need to mention that you're actually closed to any input from the discussion other than you already know. That + overinflated ego is just too annoying to deal with. It's not like I'm perfect either, just saying what annoys me.
 
user1804599
inb4 eel joke
 
@elyse My hovercraft is full of eels.
 
Aug 5 at 17:58, by elyse
Lekker programmeren in Slang.
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's not what I said. And you brought it up in the first place.
 
user1804599
7:53 PM
@sehe :p
 
I never got why GNU/Prolog was so slow btw
 
Strangely related:
Feb 19 at 19:10, by райтфолд
@FredOverflow In Dutch "pot" is slang for "lesbian."
 
user1804599
:p
 
@Puppy if you don't notice, then you're smuggling that in your messages subconsciously.
 
That's objective fact. Presumabley
 
user1804599
7:55 PM
no it's a subjective fact
 
user1804599
and an objective opinion
 
objectionable subject
 
I need a name for this project
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
7:56 PM
thanks twitter very useful
 
@BartekBanachewicz "typical" as in "the ones you can typically see used in mainstream languages" (nominal typing with subtyping)
 
@elyse The third avatar is blank
 
user1804599
No, it's absent.
 
user1804599
Can't click it.
 
user1804599
It's just not there.
 
7:57 PM
Private account.
 
@elyse Ping him @absent
 
user1804599
oh hmm maybe
 
@BartekBanachewicz why not flip the mobo so that gpu is at the bottom, where it's natural thicker thanks to the slope?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I didn't, but I also don't care. It must be such a hard basis for dealing with somebody, when they act based on what they observe. It's not like that's the entire basis for human civilization as we know it or anything like that.
 
haven't used Idris or Agda, but I reason I mentioned them is that I found them interesting enough
 
7:58 PM
@Puppy well it's worse when people act based on things they do not observe... :)
 
user1804599
I want APL with HOFs and UDTs.
 
@thecoshman up for consideration
 
@BartekBanachewicz it would require the mobo be mounted sloped, but I'd say it's worth it, and not the much hassle
 
@milleniumbug You don't want to try Agda. Idris is getting p usable though.
 

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