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6:00 PM
Yeah, that shit is expensive, at least here. I bought it due to the large amount of PCIe lines to accomodate a 4x GPU setup
 
4x GPU? Holy shit.
 
(DirectX 12, explicit multiadapter)
 
I'm looking at the Skylake 6700K as a farm box and to bring back some fun with overclocking.
 
@Mysticial Move to Canada, push 6 GHz :D
 
But I can't get them in NA.
 
6:01 PM
Speaking of expensive stuff, are there any 16 DIMM slots "consumer" mobos?
 
Ell
Aww @mysicial and @ElimGarak is like a love story, CPU and GPU enthusiast meet and become best of friends
 
@ElimGarak I wasn't afraid to push my 2600K above 1.5 vcore. But I totally scoffed at the thought of going above 1.3 for the 5960X.
 
The amount of your paranoia is about 1.9 more for me (price-wise)
 
Not mention that my 5960X was heat-limited. The 2600K was vcore limited.
Even at 1.4 vcore @ 4.8 GHz, it still ran below 80C for the first 6 months before it degraded.
 
Ell
You make me giggle @scottw san
 
6:04 PM
Did anything actually surpass the 2600K for OC? That is not too expensive, that is. 2600K was reasonably priced.
 
Ell
Or kun or fam or w/e
 
@ElimGarak Nope - excluding the 2700K.
Haswell sucked balls.
 
s/w/k/
 
@ElimGarak are there any reasonable dx12 examples available beyond what is on MS's github?
 
runs
 
6:05 PM
I didn't want to delid and was stuck with a 4770K that hit 80C at stock with a water cooler.
I currently run it at 4 GHz.
 
@ScarletAmaranth No, not yet. We have some insider stuff, but that hasn't been cleared from the NDA yet. You can check with Andrew Lauritzen (Intel) for the timing on the release of his Asteroids demo (Twitter or Beyond3D)
 
user406009
@ElimGarak Have you had access to any of the Vulkan betas enough to compare dx12 and vulkan?
 
Ell
Vulkan > dx12
Cross platform FTW
 
@Lalaland Not sure I can talk about that yet, but I was in the Mantle beta (since that's done).
 
Ell
I'm not qualified tbh
 
6:09 PM
@Mysticial have you tried the 4790K? I believe it runs 4ghz stock
 
Ell
But still I think that
 
user406009
@ElimGarak I see.
 
Yup, that's why I can mention that and DX12. NDAs are really vaguely worded.
And this is really heavily indexed by Google, I don't want to step on anyone's toes.
 
user406009
Yeah, no need to do anything stupid. I was just wondering.
 
Ell
Hopefully vulkaN spec is available q4 this year
Which means like November right?
 
user406009
6:11 PM
@Ell You can read the mantle spec if you are that interested.
 
Vulkan needs to hurry the fuck up. I can tell you that every major studio is already on DirectX 12, actively developing.
Publishers and studios will not justify multiple efforts to integrate an API which already covers the major PC platform (Windows)
 
user406009
What about the consoles (other than XBox)?
 
I hope it won't go the way of OpenGL. For example, DirectX 11 had compute shaders. OpenGL got them years later with 4.3. Nvidia research papers were actually faking compute kernels with vertex shader IDs.
 
Ell
from what I heard, engine developers developed vulkan
So I'm p sure they'll be fine
 
@Lalaland Playstation 4 has its own API, Xbox One has a specialized version of DirectX 11 (and gearing towards 12). And Apple is on Metal.
 
user406009
6:13 PM
@ElimGarak Isn't that more the scope of OpenCL?
 
Ell
Vulkan supports compute
 
@Ell Vulkan's basis was done by AMD. Engine developers were mostly consulted on what additional features they'd want. But DirectX 12 and Vulkan are on par.
So the only question is who gets there first.
 
Ell
I'm not sure, vulkan will be available on android I think
 
but, what about blackberry?
 
@Lalaland Compute is an integral part of modern games. That's why OS X is such shit for games, it only does OpenGL 4.1. It can interop with OpenCL 2.0, but that's it (really limited)
 
Ell
6:15 PM
Obviously android Can't use metal and I think it will want to Move. To. Vulkan.because of tiled renderers or W/e
 
@Ell Yes, for now theoretically. DirectX 12, though, will be hitting mobile soon.
 
I just got an invite to wokrspace.io
 
Ell
windows phones? :P
 
Ell
Cmon man ;)
 
6:16 PM
So you have DirectX 12 on the left of them, Metal on the right of them... And imaginary Vulkan support. :Đ
 
Ell
But seriously I hope Vulkan wins
 
It will be weird on mobile.
 
Ell
Open standard is better plus I'm on linux :P
 
user406009
@Ell As far as Microsoft and Apple are concerned, fragmentation is good :(
 
It's good to have different APIs for different platforms. Each can utilize it to the maximum.
 
It shits on the developer, extra work. But they don't care.
 
I like how Bjarne just grabs the mic
 
Ell
@elim I don't undetsand this
 
AINT NO NEED TO INTRODUCE ME
 
Ell
Why isn't it better to utilise it to the maximum across platforms?
 
6:18 PM
@Ell The jack of all trades is a master of none.
 
user406009
But we are running the same kind of graphics chips on all desktops ...
 
Ell
@elim aren't all abstractions the jack of all trades?
 
That's the sour truth. Vulkan will probably be fine everywhere. But a calibrated DirectX 12 engine will always win on Windows.
 
Ell
(No, imho)
 
user406009
I can understand a separate mobile api and desktop api, but Windows Desktop and Linux Desktop are running similar hardware.
 
user1804599
6:19 PM
template isAddable(T) {
    // Works by attempting to add two instances of type T
    const isAddable = __traits(compiles, (T t) { return t + t; });
}
 
user1804599
__traits(compiles, ...) is funny.
 
user1804599
It returns true if the given code could compile.
 
DirectX 12 is only a part of the rendering equation. There is also getting stuff on the screen, the composition engine, redundant copies, DXGI.
 
@ʞɔᴉN I'm not going to get a 4790K if I already have a 4770K. I'm not even sure if there's a BIOS update for my mobo to handle Devils Canyon.
 
SIT STILL BJARNE
bjarne jus so fidgety
 
6:20 PM
@Mysticial good point
don't you already have a 5th gen anyways?
 
Ell
@elim I just don't understand that. Vulkan can do everything dx12 can do plus tiling
 
user406009
@Prismatic Bjarne's giving a talk at your company?
 
@ʞɔᴉN I don't have Broadwell. And I don't intend to get it.
 
Ell
Intel will have open source vulkan drivers
 
why not?
 
6:21 PM
@Lalaland No the comment was referring to the link I posted
 
I mean me neither, they seem overpriced for what they deliver but thats just my opinion
 
@ʞɔᴉN It doesn't have anything I want that I don't already have. And it costs money.
 
@Ell Vulkan has to go through Windows, whose display model is intrinsically based on DirectX tech with Windows 10. DirectX 12 knows how to dance with it efficiently.
 
Ell
What does "go through windows" mean?
 
@Ell Composition engine. The content of your window. Redundancy copies.
 
user406009
6:22 PM
@ElimGarak For a full screen application, are those factors that important?
 
@Lalaland There is no more fullscreen in Windows 10. Everything is a borderless window behind the scenes.
 
Ell
Doesn't the driver deal with all of that?
 
The days of exclusive fullscreen are gone.
@Ell In the case of Vulkan, if they don't work it out with Microsoft, you first render your stuff, it gets shuffled back to system memory, then copied into a proper DXGI surface for the compositor then passed back to the GPU where it is composited.
 
user406009
@Ell I think there would also be the issue of driver quality. The DX12 drivers might be better due to more DX12 software. There might be more DX12 software due to better drivers.
 
user406009
etc etc
 
user406009
6:24 PM
@ScottW You can go into the PHP room?
 
With DirectX 12 and the flip model, there is no such issue anymore. No round trip.
 
Ell
Driver software may always be an issue. But open source drivers will help. Intel only Of course
Actually AMD may have open drivers maybe?
 
@Ell Intel has open documents for constructing drivers. Nvidia is closed shut. AMD is partially open.
Nvidia are a bunch of dicks, IMO.
 
@ElimGarak Why would something you render get passed back to system memory in opengl or vulkan
 
@ScottW it's OK man, don't forget I'm here
 
user406009
6:26 PM
Also, open source doesn't guarantee driver quality.
 
@Prismatic Because you need to composite it with the desktop, and it won't take the Vulkan output. It needs a special surface.
 
Ell
@ElimGarak hmm. If this is the case, couldn't the vulkan driver use the dx driver just to render the surface? :P
 
user406009
The most qualified people are working at the graphics companies already.
 
user406009
@Ell That would be an unnecessary copy.
 
They may work it out, but that's the sitrep right now.
 
Ell
6:27 PM
hmm
Okay vOv
 
Would you help Vulkan if you were Microsoft?
 
user406009
No
 
Ell
me personally? yes
 
user406009
Microsoft wins by killing Vulkan.
 
Ell
But of course I'd say that :P
 
6:27 PM
@ElimGarak It'd be interesting if a driver let you blit framebuffers gpu side without doing a copy to system memory
 
Vulkan helps the spread to other platforms. Windows doesn't win that way.
@Prismatic It is possible, with DirectX and the flip model :P (it is preferable, not only possible)
 
Ell
Microsoft can win while not screwing everyone else over
They just need to not be anti competetive :/
 
user406009
@Ell Microsoft's goal is to maximize shareholder value.
 
but PC master race
 
user406009
Killing Vulkan maximizes shareholder value.
 
6:28 PM
@ElimGarak I meant blit from a Vulkan context to a DX one
 
Ell
It's anticompetitive
 
user406009
Welcome to free market capitalism.
 
user406009
I hope you enjoy your stay.
 
There was exactly one discussion topic regarding Vulkan during the development of DirectX 12. It was started by me (back when it was glNext)
 
@Ell Have you ever read about project farenheit?
 
6:30 PM
Basically, the stance of the developers is that PC gaming is Windows gaming.
Vulkan is a pipe dream, yet DirectX 12 is coming out this summer. And they've been working with it for a year.
 
I can't imagine window composition causing any kind of slow down. The extra fb copy with a non directx composer seems like... I dunno I can't see how itd ever be a bottleneck
 
user406009
Valve is trying to support other OSes.
 
user406009
I hope they succeed.
 
@Prismatic You go back over the PCIe to system memory where the copy is performed. And then made resident in GPU memory for compositing.
@Lalaland Valve should look at their own HW surveys.
 
user406009
Isn't the issue that you are trying to combine DX12 rendered content and Vulkan rendered content?
 
6:32 PM
And DirectX is closed source. :P
 
user406009
Cause windows using DX12 to render the windows, menu bars, etc.
 
@ElimGarak Consider a non mobile system running DX12. You should be able to estimate the amount of time it'd take to copy a frame buffer of a given size
 
Mobile systems are APU-like, with a UMA-esque, shared memory.
 
and I think compared to your application's frame() call, its very small
 
Ell
@lala Microsoft is government sponsored, is it not?
 
user406009
6:33 PM
No.
 
@ElimGarak It's an idiotic argument when you're trying to push more content onto a platform
 
Would you guys rather set a member pointer to nullptr in the class or list initialize it in the constructor?
 
Guys, you're looking at it the smart way. Look at the publisher's way.
 
"Steam has no users on Linux therefore we won't make content on Linux therefore Steam has no users on Linux"
 
Mobile systems don't really have multiple API support so it doesn't matter
 
6:34 PM
It's a dumb circular nonsense
 
Ell
I'm still pretty happy with the number of games going to linux anyway
 
i'm trying to break some code that uses wcstombs, but I can't find a codepage that will convert any wide char to a two byte character in a multibyte string.
 
Don't work with stupid shortsighted publishers
 
does anybody know of a codepage and a widechar that would work?
 
user406009
@ElimGarak Humble bumble isn't doing too bad. They usually measure ~75% windows, ~12.5% mac, ~12.5% Linux.
 
6:35 PM
@Nooble I prefer to use constructor
 
@Prismatic Really? For what reason?
 
All I know is that they are barely supporting Windows PC in the today's AAA climate. We're constantly left behind, waiting for months and years. Let alone Linux and OS X.
 
Just for consistency. I dont ever init members in the declaration unless its a POD
 
@Prismatic Ah ok.
 
We're going to have cool indie games there, sure. But you know who drives adoption.
 
6:36 PM
init-ing half your stuff in the declaration and half in the constructor is ugly
 
Object needs to be usable once ctor is done
 
It's not that I am joyful about it, I've just learned to be Cat-cynical.
 
Fuck AAA
 
Ell
Well time will tell anyway
 
It's going to collapse on itself
 
6:37 PM
I hope it does it soon.
 
user406009
Why do you think AAA is going to collapse on itself?
 
user406009
They sell a product people like.
 
@Lalaland Greedy practices, shitty games. People get tired of it.
 
They sell broken products that try to get even more money from people
 
oh god rob pike taking pot shots at bjarne
 
6:38 PM
Because their budgets are overblown, processes terrible, and business model unsustainable
 
user406009
AAA is at least better than the state of mobile games.
 
bjarne uncomfortably fidgeting when rob says "go is an easier language"
 
It's not false
 
Their budgets are hyperoverblown. They're throwing money into a black hole.
 
user406009
BASIC is also an easier language.
 
6:39 PM
@Lalaland Garbage meet more garbage
 
The shit they make doesn't require a budget of 150 million dollars. They're just incompetent.
 
@Lalaland And coincidentally also better
 
user406009
People seem to want the movie quality graphics.
 
I think Bjarne is a little biased with C++ some times. Like when he advocated to teach C++11 as a first programming language because its nice and easy
 
user406009
The voice-acting, etc, etc.
 
6:40 PM
They're already starting to hit diminishing returns on photorealism eye candy nonsense
 
@Lalaland You know how long it takes to copy SIGGRAPH equations into a working renderer? 3-4 weeks.
 
GTA 5 cost $265m to make
totally overblown
 
user406009
@ElimGarak I'm talking more about all the art assets that go into modern AAA games.
 
The issue is asset production, those equations need data to chew on. And they're overfocusing on it.
Yeah.
 
And yet they can't fucking launch anything without a ton of bullshit involved
 
user406009
6:41 PM
Truthfully I don't care that much about graphics. But a lot of people do.
 
"We can't admit that we're setting prices too low and budgets too high, enjoy thousands of worthless DLC and microtransactions"
 
But even with high end graphics, their budgets are still overblown. Heavily. And then they sell a game for 60-70-80 bucks. And then microtransactions.
 
user406009
They buy these games which are pretty much movies, with like no gameplay.
 
Really there soon will be little difference between AAA and mobile nonsense save for presentation
 
and yet they make fuck tons of money so what exactly is there to complain about?
 
6:42 PM
Shallow games made to exploit
 
user406009
Which AAA games are doing microtransactions?
 
It will turn into a cycle, successful indies will become AAA and slowly become fat like today's AAA schmucks. As long as the old generation falls, games will do fine.
 
user406009
Are you referring to DLC?
 
indie games typically start out bloated anyways
 
6:43 PM
It started around Portal 2 I guess? Maybe earlier but it wasn't that visible
 
Ell
@elim 3-4 weeks for the renderer? Woah. How long for a n00b?
 
@Ell Basic shit working, yes.
 
@Ell We're talking about teams of 100 people with years of experience
 
@Lalaland graphics must reflect gameplay. for instance, Software Inc. is trying to peg that 'we are so hip we don't care about graphics' look. it takes away from the game IMO
 
> "Compilation times have become an unmanagable problem. Even the standards committee has noticed it"
 
6:45 PM
Graphics are really simple in engine design, since for most developers, researchers already prepare both basic methods of implementation and the equations. Other aspects are usually what takes time. Decent animation engines, etc.
 
man bjarne is sharp with that humour
 
Super photorealistic graphics and we're still in the red and can't live without additional removed value nonsense
 
@Lalaland Jim Sterling talks specifically about those in his monday video.
 
I'm looking forward to one of the big publishers just outright going bankrupt
It'll be glorious
 
It's not going to be Activision, tho.
 
6:46 PM
Mostly because it no longer exists
Blizzard is kinda grasping at straws too
 
user406009
@Prismatic Perhaps modules will save us.
 
I have two VPS on in UK and one in US. They both have a public IP. If I login on one of them and send a ping to the other one, will an ARP get involved?
 
Though it'll probably take a while for WoW to completely wind down
 
WoW has pretty much bloated them with cash.
 
user406009
I don't want Blizzard to fail. Their Starcraft line of games is quite good.
 
6:48 PM
@StackedCrooked No
 
@Lalaland we'll get modules one day, you'll see! you'll all see!
 
Well in local segment yes
But not over WAN
 
The issue is that the game industry started in the last century and all of the newcomers then are pretty much on top now, bloated and out of ideas.
They just need to roll over and die already.
 
user406009
@Prismatic That's what people claimed when C++14 got released. And now it's been pushed back from C++17.
 
Does it send a naked IP header on the wire directly?
 
6:50 PM
@Lalaland c++17 is right around the corner! we'll have modules before you know it
 
@Prismatic Just not on Visual Studio. Fuck.
 
user406009
@Prismatic I'll stick to Rust.
 
Goddamn integrated graphics tools.
 
I was being sarcastic
@ElimGarak doesn't VS support clang now
 
@Prismatic VS is still trying to suck its own dick.
 
6:51 PM
@StackedCrooked What else would it send?
 
Good question :)
 
@ElimGarak well it is a microsoft product
 
I don't have fucking std::to_string, let alone something else.
 
I should have asked it myself..
 
@ElimGarak Why?
 
6:52 PM
@nabijaczleweli What do you mean?
 
@ElimGarak there there, I had to write a 'to_string' function too because android's ndk doesnt have it either
 
@ElimGarak Why don't you have std::to_string?
 
@nabijaczleweli Because MSVC is still a bit bonkers.
inb4 v140.
 
> 2015
> uses MSVC
 
user406009
Visual Studio is a decent product.
 
6:53 PM
Yeah, no
 
user406009
Perhaps you were using it wrong?
 
I was not using it
vendor lock-n
 
user406009
Then how can you claim it's a bad product?
 
Visual Studio is decent. But its C++1x support is shoddy. At least C++11 is more or less there.
 
@Lalaland It's a passable product if you're doing not C++
 
6:54 PM
woah
 
Also, without system provider's solid graphics tools, you're dead in the water in my field.
 
And that's only because it hosts R#
 
someone in chat has rightfold's avatar
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Mostly.
 
in BGL is there anything special that I need to do for serialization ? If I use listS or setS instead of vecS for VertexListS with adjacency_list ?
 
6:57 PM
So, what have you linux lovers been using these days, which distro?
 
user406009
Debian is very solid.
 
0
Q: My program is using an invalid compiler, how do I find the right compiler?

Jason RosenbergWhen I try to build and run my program I get this error message: "First Project": The compiler's setup (GNU GCC Compiler) is invalid, so Code::Blocks cannot find/run the compiler. Probably the toolchain path within the compiler options is not setup correctly?! (Do you have a compiler instal...

lol
 
morning
 
user406009
@Erik Welcome.
 
howdy
 
6:59 PM
Debian is mostly garbage, but it might work okay if you're not doing anything with it
 
@CatPlusPlus Oh, I love you ahaha <3
 
Ubuntu probably ships with better out of the box config
For desktops
 
I was thinking about this one distro, and then I forgot its fucking name.
 
I'm running Debian on a server fleet right now, it's annoying as fuck
Gentoo is decent if you have the patience
Arch breaks every 2 weeks but you might be fine
 

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