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3:27 AM
>> reduce [%"/foo^/bar/" %/foo^/bar/ to string! %/foo^/bar/ <foo^/bar>]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [%/foo%0Abar/ %/foo "/foo" <foo^/bar>]
 
rebol2> reduce [%"/foo^/bar/" %/foo^/bar/ to string! %/foo^/bar/ <foo^/bar>]
rebol2> reduce [%"/foo^/bar/" %/foo^/bar/ to string! %/foo^/bar/ <foo^/bar>]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [%/foo%0Abar/ %/foo "/foo" <foo^/bar>]
 
Hm.
I think ^ escapes make sense for %"" file notation, percent-encoding seemingly fits with the idea that regular file notation is related to url notation...
rebol2> reduce [%"/foo^/bar/" %/foo^/bar/ to string! %/foo^/bar/ <foo^/bar>]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [%/foo%0Abar/ %/foo "/foo" <foo^/bar>]
 
3:31 AM
rebol2> system/version
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 2.7.8.4.2
 
Weird, I get a different result for Rebol 2 and the above line...
rebol2> reduce [system/version %"/foo^/bar/" %/foo^/bar/ to string! %/foo^/bar/ <foo^/bar>]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [2.7.8.4.2 %/foo%0Abar/ %/foo "/foo" <foo^/bar>]
 
Oh, right—it's filtered through Rebol 3...
rebol2> do {reduce [%"/foo^^/bar/" %/foo^^/bar/ to string! %/foo^^/bar/ <foo^^/bar>]}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [%/foo%0Abar/ %/foo^/bar/ "/foo^^/bar/" <foo^/bar>]
 
4:07 AM
Similarly not pro-caret escaping in tags either. As with URLs, should be able to paste them in from one source or another without having to hand-escape them.
>> mold probe load "<!-- foo^/bar -->"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
<!-- foo
bar -->
== "<!-- foo^/bar -->"
 
>> type? load "<!-- foo^/bar -->"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== tag!
 
@Feeds I guess this question precludes using Rebol 3 from serving binary (images, etc.) via CGI...
 
@rgchris As with other things , if anything like the workings of write/etc. are holdups, put them in the "fasttrack" list for Ren/C
@rgchris You mean not pro-caret escaping of slashes, specifically? Yes, that does not make sense.
 
4:21 AM
@HostileFork Any pro-caret escaping in tags.
@HostileFork There is no SYSTEM/PORTS/OUTPUT in Rebol 3. This is either a problem, or the solution is as yet unknown.
 
@rgchris Hmm. Well how do you propose > wind up in a tag then?
 
@HostileFork Not certain, but not caret either.
 
@rgchris Please add your thoughts to #2209, which I don't fully remember all the details of at this time... but that's why I wrote it down.
I wonder if my rule shouldn't be violated ever... e.g. that ^(1) has to be written instead of ^1 ...
 
@HostileFork Will think about it, but agree with using carets for escaping in words to the degree that I'd support escaping in words.
 
@rgchris Well you are one of the heavy users of tags in practice and the most likely to have a picture of what you'd like to see, so don't be shy about explaining what you want. For my own feelings, I turned away from multi-line tags and other things... so presenting compelling use cases and how things "should look" can help set the stage.
I think with a construction syntax like tag!{--whatever--} it starts to mean the edge cases can be picked up without being too ugly
 
4:32 AM
I'd be for recognising some XML patterns for tags, like <!-- being closed with --> to allow some Javascript <!-- a > b -->
 
Then the desire to reclaim cool symbols like >>= or <-- start to be viable.
I'm not sure if those applications are worth messing up the symbolic word opportunities
Remember: XML is what Rebol is coming to replace and be more beautiful than
 
It still would be, don't really think this'd be a violation of that principle.
 
Well we do need to study it and you raise a good example, I didn't think about ending a comment with --
I sort of would rather that these cases be addressed at a dialect level and produce that output instead of bend Rebol to it.
comment {a > b} => <!-- a > b -->
I know it's tempting to really let Rebol speak in the domain of the source, and I know HTML is big in people's minds as a domain they think of as "source", but I think there needs to be care taken with the bowing to it.
Being able to dip one's toes into the domain with something looking tag-like such as <div> is a nice compromise, but no one is going to be satisfied with it being an HTML equivalent anyway. Pushing a little bit closer is going to need demonstrable benefit.
 
I know it isn't everything, but it does loom large in every day usage. Whether it's construction or analysis.
 
4:47 AM
Granted, but adhering not just to the language style but its comment style as well when it impinges pretty heavily on the source syntax may be pushing too far.
Remember: people from other languages are used to "<!-- some /"stuff/" -->" and they don't fall off the universe and die. (slash used instead of backslash due to chat markdown)
TAG! has some beautiful applications, like your answer scraper I like the source to and point everyone at to say "Look! Rebol is literate". But I feel like that's probably some of its sweet spot... giving you the part, but not actually encoding the attributes as strings. With attributes as string, structural manipulation is out anyway.
 
Fair enough. I still think it's worth trying to figure out a reasonably elegant compromise though.
(also, it's too bad @BrianH didn't expand on his non-markup related tag usage)
 
@rgchris Elegant compromises are (well, should be) the name of this game, so yup.
 
I guess the other case would be: <some thing="a > b">
>> map-each thing [<some thing="a > b">] [type? thing]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [tag!]
 
IIRC that's not legal in HTML5 and you have to write <some thing="a &gt; b"> ... though I may be wrong
 
4:56 AM
>> map-each thing [<some> thing="a b">] [type? thing]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [tag! word! string! word!]
 
Or... [<some> thing: "a b"]
(Plan -4 wouldn't skip the equals like that; you'd need spaces if you were to express yourself that way as [<some> thing = "a b"])
With expression barrier you might escalate syntax to [<some> \ thing = "a b" \ else = "c d"]
 
I don't think either are valid tags in any markup language, but are there cases where you might want either form? <some> thing=""> or <some thing="a > b">
Well: <some thing="a > b"> is valid in Rebol currently, I suppose :)
 
I'll continue with my terminology of "naturals" and say that I am not permanently opposed to <some thing="a > b"> being a "natural tag". My mind isn't set in concrete or anything with that.
However, guts suggest that <!-- some /"stuff/" --> is probably stealing too many symbols to be a "natural"
Too many nifty imaginable uses for -->, <--, -> and all their friends.
And I think that's when Rebol can actually get fun and people go "whoa, this is slick"
 
Doesn't seem to onerous for bnf though: ["<" ["!--" thru "-->" | other tag types]]
 
5:03 AM
I'm less confident they'll have their minds blown by getting .02% closer to representing HTML directly in Rebol source.
Well, like you say, maybe it's a strategic decision. Maybe it's a tradeoff where it's worth it to say --> surrounded by spaces requires a bit of looking around to see which it is.
But remember, it's easier to loosen than to tighten.
 
[ <!-- --> --> <!-- --> ] == [tag! word! tag!] :)
 
Well, that's the kind of weirdness I'm hoping to limit of course
But then again, what are the odds someone's using both?
The design of C++ has a lot of things in it where they don't disallow things... the standard collection classes don't have virtual destructors so you really should not be deriving from them. And people say "well, if odds are you're doing something by deriving from them, why aren't they final to stop you?" But it's about control, and people who are doing it and know why they're doing it will be mad.
C
You shoot yourself in the foot.
C++
You accidently create a dozen instances of yourself and shoot them all in the foot. Providing emergency medical assistance is impossible since you can't tell which are bitwise copies and which are just pointing at others and saying "That's me, over there." http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/joke/foot.htm
 
I don't think it's too obscure either: <!-- is fairly deliberate and familiar (perhaps not forever when HTML/XML is dead) sequence that's visually hard to miss.
 
It's not one I'm too worried about losing from the "natural word" space, no.
 
Similarly <![CDATA[ (though matching <![ with ]> might be enough for this one :)
 
5:11 AM
Ugh. There's one I haven't seen in a while.
 
@HostileFork Pretty, isn't it?
 
@rgchris In that sort of way, I guess. :-)
 
:)
Some BrianHisms:
Feb 6 '13 at 4:46, by BrianH
The current tag type is more flexible than just HTML/XML-style tags. The question is whether this is better done with a datatype or with a set of functions and data model. The functions and data model is more flexible, because you can change it, while it is exceedingly difficult to make changes to a datatype. If you need something different you need the module full of addon functions anyway.
Feb 10 '13 at 21:26, by BrianH
Right, but that still assumes that tags are XML/HTML-like. Which the current tag type doesn't, and I use that advantage a lot.
Feb 6 '13 at 4:40, by BrianH
@HostileFork That would require changing a tag to be like a block type. That doesn't really work with non-html and non-xml tags, like the current type supports, which would prevent us from generating code for page generation languages. The path stuff doesn't require changing the datatype, just runtime manipulation.
Just bringing them up as he's mentioned tags beyond HTML/XML.
 
5:26 AM
@rgchris For those who don't remember--when BrianH and I had our first discussion... when I'd just found Rebol and had no clue what TAG! was: page, talk, archive
 
Thks.
 
>> parse <aaa> [copy x 3 (probe x)]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: x has no value
** Where: parse
** Near: parse <aaa> [copy x 3 (probe x)]
 
>> parse "aaa" [copy x 3 (probe x)]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: x has no value
** Where: parse
** Near: parse "aaa" [copy x 3 (probe x)]
 
5:32 AM
copy x 3 skip
 
Hm.
>> parse <aaa> [copy x 3 skip (probe x)]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
<aaa>
== true
 
So if you copy content out of a tag, should it be a tag? Hmmm
 
rebol2> parse <aaa> [copy x 3 skip (probe x)]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
"aaa"
== true
 
5:33 AM
For whatever reason, that seems more useful to me.
 
Deliberately changed...
 
More consistent.
I said "for whatever reason" to acknowledge my arbitrary "user mindset" bias.
 
I guess one consideration for my thoughts on special treatment of <!-- comment tags --> is what if you do:
remove <!-- comment -->
It'd become <-- comment --> and that'd be different (requiring construction syntax?).
 
Yup. Going to re-pitch my term "natural" vs. "non-natural"
@RebolBot
reverse hostilefork.com
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== moc.krofelitsoh//:ptth
 
5:40 AM
Natural vs. unnatural.
 
That'd be fine by me.
 
To speed things up, there could be a dirty bit on things
If they load successfully and don't get touched, they know they're natural and mold out without needing to check
If you ever mold something that's dirty, you check it and then decide if you can clean the bit.
 
Seems reasonable.
 
There are still several bits to play with in value cells.
Not a lot, but some.
I just freed a pointer sized element out of series references.
So 32 or 64 bits available there now.
We need to collapse all the function types into a single FUNCTION!
All we need now is a syntax for saying what kind of function you want to make function!
Brain-dead method: make function! [closure [..spec...] [..body..]]
I think we can do better than that.
Firstly, I don't know that CLOSURE is the right word... in general something is wrong with all these words.
They do not properly color what the actual implementation differences or tradeoffs are.
But it will be more convenient to have a single FUNCTION! type... the only problem child being ACTION! because it may mean something very different.
 
Is there going to be some write-down (doc) to all those underlying changes? It would be imo of a great value, albeit of interest mainly to gurus (those who can contribute to lang development itself)
 
5:52 AM
@pekr I am not making any such user level changes in the initial Ren/C release. Except where basically impossible to maintain compatibility in light of correctness, it should be fully compatible.
A few things had to break; there is no QUIT/NOW for instance.
red> help quit
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl

USAGE:
      /return  status

DESCRIPTION:
     Stops evaluation and exits the program.
     quit is of type: function!

ARGUMENTS:

REFINEMENTS:
     /return
         status  [integer!] => Return an exit status.
 
Red doesn't have it either, though.
And some of the other things I "broke" were logged as bugs in CureCode and had consensus.
 
yeah, but you go via the process of redesigning R3 internals anyway. And while your changes might be just "cosmetic" initially, you might have various ideas, of how to get further. And imo noone apart you (as a person who dig really deep into the topic) is better suited to describe/propose some further options ... well, just imo ...
 
@pekr Well, it was supposed to be a big group unity thing, I was the "Red is Rebol4" promoter and no one fought harder for there being a coherence than I did. I do not want to be making decisions alone. Some of my bristling is the "just because you're voting doesn't mean it will be read" and "Nenad makes the ultimate decision" which is reminiscent of the "Carl has final say" from the Parse project wiki...
So I don't want to be doing that. I do hold back from the temptation to slip changes into this release as I fix lots of other bugs, by saying "no, I'm not going to make unilateral decisions like that"
 
It is a group thing. It is just that those skilled to participate actively, are not present here (Ladislav, BrianH, Andreas lately), not sure about MarkI, WiseGenius or some other guys, who could possibly contribute to Rebol/Red internals ...
And Doc is simply busy and it is not realistic for him to contribute to R3 changes/ideas at this stage.
But for e.g. just recently they re-opened the topic of exposure of collation tables. I asked for the reason and the answer is - because recent solution is not multiprocessor friendly ...
 
6:06 AM
I'm starting to almost enjoy trying new ideas with the Rebol core. It's starting to get explicable and safe. I think more people will be able to contribute if they want to.
But we can't avoid the fact that not all that many young coders with time to burn know C these days. Some do.
I think that twisting and experimenting with Rebol Core will be easier to do than messing with Red will be, and certainly the instrumentation protecting you to modify with confidence will be far better. My hope was that this would be a resource for Red to build upon and ditch Rebol2
I think Ren/C++ (which I'm trying out as the new name for RenCpp, and thinking about whether its SEO unfriendliness makes it less good) is very spiffy, and so there's a major axis of why I decided Rebol needed the bugs fixed.
There was no viable way to pitch Ren/C++ if once you get past the "WOW!" part with someone, it all crashes and has memory leaks and goes to hell in a handbasket
And my websites got stuck in Rebol due to those web scrapes I did, and @rebolek said he was all in on Lest and was a believer, and I said... okay. I'll fix the bugs.
I think people will like it, and the empowerment stuff. If you liked the watch features of Ren Garden... nothing stopping you from throwing them into a Ren/C console. You want breakpoints? Not too hard to add.
(Those are very difficult to add today, and I've tried to explain some of the reasons why.)
 
7:15 AM
0
A: file stop read when line reached

sqlabYou have always to read the file before you can search in the content of the file. Maybe you are looking for something like clines: read/lines %myfile found: false start: "mysearch" foreach line clines [ if any [ found found: find line start ] [ print line ...

 
 
1 hour later…
8:19 AM
Guys, as you are discussion various improvements and consistency thruout language is being a topic here too, what do you think about the removal of parens from path values? 'Cause Doc is thinking about doing so in Red ...
Any thoughts here?
The reasoning is: "I am not sure I want to keep paren! in path, they create a big syntactic problem, as paths are mono-line literal forms while paren! can be multi-line."
 
@pekr I think that it makes more sense than randomly prohibiting them in the first position, because it represents a more firm and pure stance. Yet I think that they are very useful and that forbidding them turns paths into this second-class-citizen status; which is hard to explain and harder to cohere in implementation.
As with the discussions, I think it's talking about tolerance of "natural" syntax vs. what is prohibited, as I doubt Red is considering disallowing the mechanical construction of paths with structure in them.
 
Yes, but weren't parens added to path for a good? Why to pick an extreme case, where user would use multiline parens and break the path that way? Here's the initial REP, which might lead to the addition of parens to path: rebol.org/ml-display-thread.r?m=rmlMVDS
 
I didn't say I approved of prohibiting the paths, I just think that if he wants to say he doesn't want parens in paths at all that is coming more clean than fighting parens in the first slot.
So I approve of the clarification in stance.
I'm not super comfortable with:
(foo
bar baz)/(thing
other thing)/2
However, we are talking about other things that sort of impinge on our comfort zone and compromises, and when something is the user's business vs the syntax's business.
I'm a Draconian person by nature; very much about controls and locks. Yet in "the most freeform language ever created" it's worth it to think deeply and to consider what to prohibit vs. what to merely discourage
I think that making the "three" BLOCK! types more similar than different has value.
This goes again to dialecting. As I've said before, one of the reasons Doc doesn't really want to worry about the "ugliness" potential of parens in paths is because he can always put that component in a variable and then get it. Instead of foo/(baz + bar)/mumble he can write x: baz + bar foo/:x/mumble. With an easy transformation available, why worry with a potentially confusing syntax with newlines and spaces?
And the error in thinking is the thing I've been saying all along: the sales pitch is supposed to be dialecting. The only way you can do that transformation is if you're in a situation where x: baz + bar is processed imperatively in DO. So much for paradigm neutrality at that point.
I could live without parens in paths if coding in Rebol at the APPEND, MOLD, HEAD, TAKE BACK TAIL kind of level. But then again, I could live without Rebol if that's all it was for.
What I want parens in paths for is dialects. They have potential.
NewPath needs some review, even today I need to do an update... I've learned more.
Perhaps my shift is toward earl's "PredictablePath", but he hasn't written it down, so I could be projecting.
 
8:55 AM
OK, thanks for some thoughts ...
 
 
3 hours later…
11:28 AM
Question: Let's say I had:
red>> h: make hash! [{a} {x} {b} {y} {c} {z}]
== make hash! ["a" "x" "b" "y" "c" "z"]
red>> f1: function [the-key] [select/skip h the-key 2]
== func [the-key][select/skip h the-key 2]
red>>
red>> f1 {a}
== "x"
red>> f1 {b}
== "y"
red>> f1 {c}
== "z"
Is there a way to define f2 so that I get:
red>> f2 {x}
== "a"
red>> f2 {y}
== "b"
red>> f2 {z}
== "c"
at the same speed?
 
11:56 AM
https://github.com/red/red/pull/1197
GitHub
Red Pull Req—FIX: set none value to map will cause crash
qtxie
1433310751
 
 
3 hours later…
3:25 PM
@WiseGenius You should look at the Red source for how it does HASH!. Be aware that Doc has said that the long term plan is (as I would hope) that HASH! is not a separate user-facing type, but a property of blocks so you don't have to write function signatures as foo: func [blk [block! hash!]] [...]... I'm not sure exactly how in-flux that means the whole thing is.
 
Well, unless it is officialy implement, I would not bet on that :-)
 
I still think a HINT dialect could be interesting... hint blk [whatever]
The idea would be that the system would not guarantee it would read your hint, and it would not change the semantics...but it would be some cherry-picking of performance advice you could give the system.
hint blk [max-length: 100000 min-length: 50000] or whatever.
Then, gerrymander the hints to basically suit the needs of the most prominent and interesting programs
 
we already have query, but it works on ports only ...
 
When those programs don't use the hints any more, stop paying attention and treat them as no-ops; rip out the support code.
Essentially, the "cheat" to get certain programs to be faster, but a cheat more than one program can use
 
How often would you want a block! to NOT be a hash!?
 
3:42 PM
@WiseGenius Having the sidestructure costs. Often the cost of the sidestructure isn't worth it... even if you're just doing lookup. There's a break-even point for searches where something has a small number of elements you want to do a linear search vs. hashing and such.
I say "sidestructure" (although you could implement it as a map of some kind) because you are retaining the linear index/insertion/deletion ability.
One way or another you will need those indexes, and probably the easiest way is to retain a copy in plain old vector form
But Ren/C is getting... closer to an allowance for some maniac to throw in fancy new tech to underlie everything. I've mentioned std::deque but that's far from the only idea.
Though our claim is that this is brick and mortar stuff; buildable on old Amigas or AIX systems or whatever. So I'm not doing it.
(Also not doing it because: iterators instead of pointers, and I'd have to turn every REBVAL* used when used in iteration via ++ and -- into a P(REBVAL) which was a pointer in the C build and an iterator class in the C++ build.)
 
@HostileFork So no syntax component?
 
@MarkI My point in part about HINT is its disposability; a short term need. So no.
Never write your program using hints to start with. Add them only if you need them.
 
@HostileFork Right, I see. I was just thinking that, if we are thinking about syntax components for function!s, why not block!s too ...
 
@MarkI Well, this touches upon something HINT can't handle which is decisions that need to be made at the time of creation.
But only if the cost is at creation time. For instance, the FUNC maker could be a hint, because it's not more expensive to make a closure than a function... just to invoke one...
func: make function! [spec body] [hint make function! reduce [spec body] 'no-context]
Assuming that we allow hint to return its first argument, which seems sensible.
Hum, that actually does work.
 
@HostileFork OK, but in the function/closure case (as different from block/hash) there are operational differences, not just speed.
 
3:57 PM
Hrmmm... darn. You're right. Can hint make your code buggy? :-)
Although here's another; what if blocks had their memory allocated lazily? Then you could hint make block! # 10000 and not do two mallocs...
But do another native function call :-)
When I was a kid I remember reading a "comic book", one of few I've ever read in my life, from Disney. It was something like this:
And there is a part in it where Goofy is driving his car and saying he likes to save energy by not running the air conditioner... that leaving the windows down was just better overall because he liked having his ears flap in the wind.
And Mickey says "uh, Goofy..."
That's not how it works. :-)
Early childhood Moment of Zen.
 
4:12 PM
@MarkI Bah. C. I think I mentioned that I do not care for the IF comparisons on zero to be false, which is also not Rebol-compatible, so no if (memcmp(...)) stuff... always if (memcmp(...) != 0). But I made peace with null pointers, so I accept if (ptr) ... sort of treating NULL as NONE.
But then in FOR loops something bothers me about for (ptr = head; ptr; ptr = ptr->next) as opposed to for (ptr = head; ptr != NULL; ptr = ptr->next). I can't decide if I have a good reason for specifically not liking the former.
There's no big fat if on it to make it clear it's a condition, true... but what else would it be? A mistake. Maybe that's why... to have the urge to say 'you made a mistake there, it's incomplete'. But if you assume the code correct, it's briefer and fine.
 
There is a happy medium between Perl and COBOL. But goodness is harder to nail down than evil.
 
@MarkI I would say "If the Romans could do it, so can we.", but some would consider that to not be funny, so I won't say it, even though it's kind of funny.
 
Expressivity, compactness, readability, clarity, how to prioritize? I want them all.
On top of completeness, robustness, reliability, security, and correctness, of course.
 
@MarkI I took all the variable fetches that bypass the protect check because they "promised they wouldn't modify" and they return const REBVAL* now, caught several violators. But this doesn't help /HIDE. What do you think of /HIDE ?
 
@HostileFork Frustratingly underspecified?
gtg sorry HF back tonight
 
4:24 PM
@MarkI TTYL...
 
 
4 hours later…
8:52 PM
Tags III: now with backslash!
If a tag <X> forms into an unloadable, it gets molded out as <\X>; if X is empty, as <!>.I have defined "loadable" for tags as
1) begins with alpha, underscore, !, or ?
2) begins with / and is followed by alpha or underscore, then only alphanumword or underscores until the closing '>'
So <!> loads to the tag that forms as <>, the empty tag.
<\!> loads to the tag that forms as <!>, the tag whose contents are "!".
Further examples: <\"a tag with quoted contents">
<\\> - a tag with contents consisting of a single backslash
<\\\\\\> - a tag with contents consisting of 5 backslashes
<\backslash not needed> - loads as a tag that molds out to <backslash not needed>
 
9:12 PM
<\/backslash_needed_because_of_this_-_minus_sign!>
 
-1
Q: How to make a new app for the Red Pitaya

Matt HaywoodI was wondering how to make new applications for the Red Pitaya. I need a way to make my own programs that I can run using a GUI. I would like to use Python to do this but I don't know how I would display the results as it connects to the internet.

 
 
1 hour later…
10:38 PM
@MarkI Hm, this is... new. Why backslash? FYI (before I went and removed the red tag from that question above and advised the poster about a more appropriate venue, don't ask why I'm still doing cleanup for red... habit?) when I saw it I didn't realize it was a backslash; because psychologically I wasn't expecting it. So I saw a forward slash and didn't understand. Data point.
Per the discussion earlier with @rgchris, I think that the main value of TAG! has to do with a somewhat narrow range of legible interaction and styling within the HTML5 standard. So I'd say natural tags in Rebol should almost certainly be a subset and not a superset of that.
My own thinking on backslash remains the idea that it be used very narrowly as a literal notation for unset used as an expression barrier.
And as things I've tinkered with and tried, so far, I like that. Other things I've thought of and then tried have fallen from favor quickly.
If push comes to shove and empty tag is either tag!{} if you want construction syntax, or make tag! # (I still think literal none is a good 'give me the default' vs encoding a meaningless size)... I think that's not the end of the world.
If we outlaw <> for the time being, it opens the door that someday <> can become legal as empty tag.
It's too accident prone for the moment with how often <> is used for !=
So given that no code currently expects to make an empty tag via <>, it's not like we need to step in with some weird way to do it in natural notation.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:50 PM
Hmmm. If objects can expand... that suggests you can expand a closure's frame.
I'm not sure about the ramifications of that off the top of my head. But one thing it prohibits is doing a memory layout of a code stack frame which is compatible with a closure frame. If closure frames could not expand, you could make them compatible.
Just contemplating it, I would imagine that the existing closure behavior is probably buggy if you were to get ahold of the frame via bind? and expand it. But maybe it isn't due to the purely additive nature, and there aren't any gaps.
Has anyone consciously taken advantage of the fact that you can expand a closure's frame?
 

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