« first day (1677 days earlier)      last day (2103 days later) » 

1:59 AM
hmmm why backslash indeed, good question HF
1) assuming all strings can be tags, and can form out similar to strings (but with the bracketing <>)
2) there has to be something, to indicate upcoming scannable but non-tag-loadable input
3) it only needs to be in one place, at the beginning, to detect at scan time
4) it can't be a word char, !, ?, op-word char, or even a char that would commonly start an arbitrary (!) tag
All roads lead to (4), and that limits the options, by my rough calculation that leaves ; and backslash
As far as confusion with / goes, that's a good thing. That's it's prime purpose, as in <\/>, which loads as the tag </>
Having it only ever seen right after the '<' makes it stand out enough IMO.
@HostileFork Rebol's natural tags not being a superset of HTML and XML tags would be bad IMO, am I misunderstanding you?
That's why I chose the specific form of the close tag, since in both XML and HTML it can contain the tag name only.
Is this too confusing? To sum up: We've got Rebol tags (which can have any-string contents), comprised of unnatural tags (which mold out with, and can only load with, a leading backslash) and natural tags (tags which mold and form to identical strings) which last are also a superset of all HTML and XML tags, including processing instructions and comments.
@HostileFork The empty tag is fine. Printing it as <> is not fine. It is not an acceptable tag in either HTML or XML.
So yes, I have taken a liberty with <!>, as someone could object on the grounds of it being a valid PI. But it isn't. And it, well, can't be.
 
2:20 AM
Has anyone successfully built rebol3 on Debian 8 64-bit? Please look at my [question] (stackoverflow.com/questions/30563566/…)
 
I'll admit it, there's a part of me that likes the empty tag being "like" the empty processing instruction, so ... er ... shoot me :)
But I have to admit that that's probably the weakest part of my proposal, too, so I remain open to any and all alternatives.
<_>? <^>? There're a few others. <?> ...
That's all detail though. Everyone has to get behind me on the backslash first. Nay-sayers, have at me!
 
2:39 AM
@kjanz1899 Hello. Yes, I have done so. Give me a sec, be right back to answer.
@MarkI But... <\\\\> is not an acceptable tag in HTML or XML I don't think either is it?
 
@HostileFork No indeed, you are 100% correct. But, it is unnatural, right?
There will also be natural tags that are not acceptable.
 
I think the most important part of your work is likely just making an inventory of the problem cases and getting the bugs out. If it's easy to make a list of these and go through them the questions can be debated later. I'm going to say we err on the side of not worrying too much about expanding TAG! to get new powers, and perhaps even reducing it for the cases like the <!-- foo bar --> given how useful --> would be as a word symbol in the language.
So basically, I'll take a limited tag without bugs over supertag in the near term
 
@HostileFork Even if that limits it to a subset of HTML/XML?
Well, yes, he said, answering his own question, you just gave an example of that ...
 
@MarkI Rebol already cannot embed arbitrary HTML or XML, it's a different source structure. I don't know if pushing that line to 100% compatibility purely on TAG! is going to really please anyone... again when Rebol was supposed to be the XML killer in the first place...
 
But can I also take it to mean that you would disallow arbitrary strings in tags? I thought we were discounting that notion.
That there has to be some way to mold arbitrary tag strings so that they can be loaded as tags.
 
2:49 AM
Well, I'm only speaking about a state of mind in which to contemplate the questions. You seem to be trying to solve a problem with backslash which may not need to be solved.
Well, that's construction syntax. tag!{!-- blah blah --}
 
My points 1 through 4 were meant to prove it needs to be solved. I failed obviously :(
 
But as I said in the discussion yesterday, the whole thing about XML comments and CDATA and such is they're pretty awful. Why is your dialect using them?
Wouldn't it be cooler to use a BINARY! and then transform it to a CDATA in the output?
 
@HostileFork To match stuff that's been loaded?
 
>> load to-string read rebol.com/index.html
 
@HostileFork I thought we'd also discarded the "you can always do it as a binary" mindset.
 
2:52 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/syntax-invalid.html
    *** ERROR
** Syntax error: invalid "word" -- "&#9635"
** Where: to case load
** Near: (line 31) <div class=nav-bar><span class=min-note>26-Nov-2014 UTC</span> <a href="http://www.rebol.com/cgi-bin/wip3.cgi?edit=index.txt" class=nav-sym>&#9635;</a> &nbsp;</div>
 
@MarkI I meant that CDATA is probably better captured as a BINARY! vs. catering to the notation XML picked
 
@HostileFork Well, that's content you're loading. The tags'd load fine :)
@HostileFork I understand and to some degree share that opinion. But that's not what's out there.
 
Yes, but the point is who's going to be impressed by that subset? What range of application does that have?
 
@HostileFork Tag-grabbing? Are you seriously asking me that question? I need that today! Right now even ...
 
@kjanz1899 Hey you're thinking of building Rebol for AROS? Ask if you need any help, that would be very cool...
Not sure what kind of tweaks that would take, and we've been curious about it
@MarkI Well, I'm not here to shoot anything down as long as you're fixing bugs and getting things under control. I'll shoot things down later. :-P
 
2:57 AM
@HostileFork Awesome plan. Looking forward to it.
 
I am not a big user of TAG! and so I really think those who do use it more should be the ones speaking up for what it needs and doesn't need.
 
@HostileFork Who doesn't need more users :)
Fortunately, tags are the last content model that needed to be pinned down.
And, I think I have built enough of a framework that we can implement whatever is decided.
So, while still looking forward to tag discussions, with the vision this "complete" I think I can continue with my fixing.
To reward people who have followed this so far, here is an example of a "natural" tag that is not valid HTML or XML: <a$b>
 
@HostileFork Yeah sure I'll report back what it takes to build Rebol on AROS.

Can someone provide me those precious C headers created by `make prep` until I figure out why this command fails. Once have have those files I can cross compile on AROS.
 
@kjanz1899 Which OS_ID you want them for?
@MarkI Well that's the question to decide... is it good or bad to allow such a thing as a "natural"?
 
@HostileFork to be honest I have no clue about OS_ID, is there a list somewhere?
 
3:06 AM
@HostileFork I liked your other viewpoint: as long as "natural" includes valid, who cares whether the invalid ones are natural or not?
 
@kjanz1899 So I guess you'd pick whichever one you think is the closest match and suffer from there. I added Haiku support and it did require a few tweaks. This video may be helpful or not: youtube.com/watch?v=jImeByEkV8Y
 
We can sure rule out the isomorphism natural <=> valid, agreed? So some naturals will be invalid. In the best case.
 
@HostileFork 0.1.03 would be the closed match to AROS since it's suppose to be API compatible with Amiga
 
@kjanz1899 Can't make any promises on the maintenance on that one...
@kjanz1899 Hopefully you're a C hacker and know your way around a linker and stuff, because it's unlikely to "just work". ;-)
 
@HostileFork Most my C hacking was done 20+ years ago on a DEC VAX. I've had some luck cross compiling static libraries. I'm willing to give a try and hope for the best.
 
3:17 AM
@kjanz1899 Giving things a shot is how things happen. Although 0.1.03 is giving me an error.
Option set for building: 0.1.3 amiga
** Script error: cannot access os-specific-objs in path fb/os-specific-objs
** Where: if do either either either -apply-
** Near: if flag? +SC [remove find fb/os-specific-objs 'host-readline...
Let's see what that's about
Code rot. host-readline isn't on os-specific-objs, it's in os-posix now.
Oh, I see. No there just isn't an os-amiga anymore, to be produced
 
Bummer. Then it's not much hope for an AROS port. I'm a bit surprised since the Amiga binary is still available from the download page.
 
@kjanz1899 Well let us not give up too quickly. :-)
I ran it on Haiku. If you have a C compiler I'm hard pressed to believe you can't get a console build. A GUI build is unlikely.
Does AROS have a POSIX layer, more or less?
 
I believe it does have a POSIX layer.
32-bit linux would be the next closet OS choice
perhaps 0.4.04
 
Haha, oh I see what's going on
How do you get to a parent directory on Amiga?
Not ../ ?
When I do the makefile for Amiga it doesn't use ./ or ../ but doesn't fill in anything else for them
 
3:34 AM
cd /
so not ../ but simply /
 
@kjanz1899 Well you might well have to edit the makefile, but I'll send you what I got. You can unzip a .ZIP I presume?
 
yes
@HostileFork thanks for the help.. I need to go off-line for the night and I'll see what tomorrow brings
 
@kjanz1899 Good luck, let us know how it goes...
 
@HostileFork I got your file :) take care
 
That's the make prep version from rebolsource at 0.1.03 -- look at the makefile for the commands of UP and CD.
Adjust appropriately.
 
4:35 AM
Er...whoa. The code stack and data stack separation compiled. I didn't expect it to yet. There are at least a dozen ways in which I know it to be broken at this moment; it will not boot for another day at least. How did it... compile? Well, it's good news... sort of.
One known problem is that the chunked function calls can't slipstream another argument in and bounce to another call. For instance, something like FIRST is based on PICK... but in the native implementation it does not build another stack frame with 1 argument instead of zero. It used to just push an integer on the data stack and then "bounce" to the PICK implementation in the same stack frame.
Really that's the only case of this, though. It could be covered by just allocating one extra cell of space in the stack chunk. Or even just saying you have at least one cell when a native is called, even if it's not used at first. :-/
Or make first/second/third... mezzanines, and sending people into conniption fits. :-)
It makes me wonder if there is a more general mechanism rather than maintaining this one hack.
A sort of "inlining" of functions, so you get the performance of if you'd written pick foo 1 if you write first foo vs. having the whole overhead of a function call.
Without thinking it through fully, one thing for sure would be the inlined code would not have its own foo, so any changes you made to foo would affect it in the caller before you pushed the "real frame" to pick or whatever.
(or just disallow changes entirely)
Talking out loud to myself in public as usual, I have decided this is what I will do. Invent more clever and general optimization for inlining, make them mezzanines for the moment.
The lamest incarnation would look a bit like an apply and do no evaluations. So first: inline [x] :pick [x 1] for instance.
 
5:15 AM
Hm, what's the best way to write LAST as a mezzanine? pick back tail value 1 ?
It also uses the stack trick, but that's a harder one and my simplistic inline idea would not cover it.
 
5:33 AM
I don't believe I agree that also shouldn't evaluate blocks by default.
I also think that also is cool, and not given enough exposure.
 
5:51 AM
>> ? also
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
USAGE:
    ALSO value1 value2

DESCRIPTION:
    Returns the first value, but also evaluates the second.
    ALSO is a native value.

ARGUMENTS:
    value1 (any-type!)
    value2 (any-type!)
 
>> also [1 + 2] [3 + 4]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [1 + 2]
 
@johnk The argument is that you can use parens vs. having an /only, but sometimes your code is in blocks. I dunno. I feel also belongs in the either/if/unless family.
>> also (1 + 2) (3 + 4)
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 3
 
6:04 AM
By virtue of some of my other arguments, the idea that also would execute blocks by default when both clauses will be executed regardless runs against the idea of "unnecessary boilerplate". I'm on the fence. I just keep hitting it and wanting it to process blocks as code.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:53 AM
Stack separation is turning out harder than I thought, and I am also distracted. Expand prior two day estimate to 3, this won't get finished today.
I will say that under the interpreter paradigm, liberation of the code stack from the nature of a block! (that irregularly doesn't track its end!) has a lot of upside, though.
And it's not that much code; rather little. It's just about lining everything up.
 
 
1 hour later…
9:06 AM
posted on June 04, 2015 by qtxie

FEAT: allowed use arithmetic in float! vector FIX: fix type-checking for arithmetic actions of vector

 
 
2 hours later…
11:22 AM
0
Q: write a block array of data to a file

sgroves855I'm stuck on this after many attempts, I have an array of items and I'm trying to output this to a file but the problem is that it writes all at once and ignores newline. I'm beginning to wonder if rebol even has such a simple ability. file1.txt contains multiple lines myArray: [] foreac...

 
11:45 AM
@sqlab write/lines - I forgot about that one
Just beat me to the answer
 
1
A: write a block array of data to a file

sqlabRebol keeps newlines as they are. But after reading with read/lines you just get a block of items without the newlines. If you want a block of items written as lines separated by newlines, you should write them again with the refinement write/lines and Rebol adds the newlines again. myArray: []...

0
A: write a block array of data to a file

johnkWhen you use read/lines Rebol discards the line ending data and gives you an block of strings. If you want to write the block to a file you can add in the newline to each line. myArray: [] foreach line read/lines %file1.txt [ append myArray join line newline } write %file2.txt myArray

https://github.com/red/red/pull/1201
GitHub
Red Pull Req—Map datatype
qtxie
1433396709
 
Some of those r3 docs are very accurate
It does look handy although I can see myself ending up with an occasional also also also if overused
 
12:01 PM
It's astonishing that 'insert fp' does not work and noone complains about
 
12:14 PM
@sqlab What's more astonishing is that port! appears twice in the spec for insert:
>> spec-of :insert
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [
    {Inserts element(s); for series, returns just past the insert.}
    series [series! port! map! gob! object! bitset! port!] "At position (modified)"
    value [any-type!] "The value to insert"
    /part "Limits to a given length or position"
    length [number! series! pair!]
    /only {Only insert a block as a single value (not the contents of the block)}
    /dup "Duplicates the insert a specified number of times"
    count [number! pair!]
]
 
Unfortunately, with Rebol's current user set, "no-one does X on Ys" is true for almost all X and Y.
 
So noone uses Rebol3
 
@sqlab I said almost! But I actually agree; for my purposes the difference between the number of R3 users and zero is not significant.
 
Do you useR3?
 
12:22 PM
@sqlab Every day.
 
For what?
 
@sqlab Several things actually; nothing really big, mailbox scraping, computer usage statistical report generation, stuff like that.
I use it mostly because it runs on every machine I use, which is ... several.
 
A few yeard ago, I used Rebol2 almost every day. But R3 does not offer any advantage and now I have almost no use for it.
 
@sqlab I admit R2 can do what I use R3 for currently. But I hope to change that.
 
@sqlab If you think that R3 does not offer any advantage, you probably never seriously used it.
 
12:29 PM
It's not really what it does that appeals to me. It's how. It's half shell, half calculator, and half word processor.
 
@MarkI Does that mean, you will change R3 or you will not use any of both?
 
@sqlab Haha funny guy. The former of course.
 
@rebolek True. When I saw, that it was slower and I had to use more lines to get the same, I abandoned it
 
 
2 hours later…
2:43 PM
@sqlab I mainly use R3 over R2 (which I only use because of Cheyenne at moment). I've found Rebol 3 to be much faster than R2 and also more robust when it comes to recursion or stack overflows
>> delta-time [a: make block! [] for i 1 10'000'000 1 [append a i]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/internal-no-memory.html
    *** ERROR
** Internal error: not enough memory
** Where: append for do delta-time
** Near: append a i
 
delta-time [a: make block! [] for i 1 1'000'000 1 [append a i]]
aaah too big for RebolBot :(
>> delta-time [a: make block! [] for i 1 10'000'000 1 [append a i]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/internal-no-memory.html
    *** ERROR
** Internal error: not enough memory
** Where: append for do delta-time
** Near: append a i
 
delta-time [a: make block! [] for i 1 1'000'000 1 [append a i]]
>> delta-time [a: make block! [] for i 1 10'000'000 1 [append a i]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/internal-no-memory.html
    *** ERROR
** Internal error: not enough memory
** Where: append for do delta-time
** Near: append a i
 
2:45 PM
>> delta-time [a: make block! [] for i 1 1'000'000 1 [append a i]]
oh dear... anyway when I run that here on R2 & R3 I get nearly 7 times faster on R3.
 
3:04 PM
what is a link to -4 proposal?
 
@RebolBot alive?
 
>> delta-time [a: make block! [] for i 1 10'000 1 [append a i]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 0:00:00.019227
 
@RebolBot do/2 delta-time [a: make block! [] for i 1 10'000 1 [append a i]]
 
3:14 PM
@MarkI Can you elaborate on that?
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 0:00:00.091325
 
5 times slower even for only 10K appends. Interesting.
 
 
1 hour later…
4:18 PM
@RebolBot do/2 delta-time [a: make block! 10'000 for i 1 10'000 1 [append a i]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 0:00:00.089354
 
And the cost is not even in growing the block!
 
R3 is around 3 times slower than R2 when using read/lines
It's always a matter what you are doing
 
@sqlab This is totally to be expected. Unicode is a pig. Actually "only 3 times slower" is incredibly good.
 
But unicode is not always needed
 
4:21 PM
@sqlab It needs to always be expected, unfortunately, such is the nature of Unicode.
Reading without /lines will be just as fast or faster in R3.
 
but then you have to use parse to-string ...
 
@sqlab You can parse binaries if you like. Or even do your own to-string conversion w/o Unicode.
 
or even split
anyway, it was not enough interactive for how I used Rebol. I mention tcp and the console, even I wrote a console that allowed multiline commands.
but without unicode
 
@sqlab We are trying to fix the console too, and I totally understand people being turned off by R3 just for that reason.
 
I am curious how and when
 
4:31 PM
?
 
When available and how will it look?
 
Real soon now and amazing?
Seriously, those questions are hard to answer.
 
There have been many promises regarding R3 and approaches. Sooner than later they felt asleep. But I wish you good luck.
 
@sqlab I understand your feelings and appreciate where they're coming from. I am fighting hard, so I thank you for your wishes.
 
5:12 PM
Er, also scratch what I said about rolling your own to-string. Way too slow, needs to be a native.
Maybe we should have a read/ascii? Uses only bottom 7 bits of every byte? Would be fast ...
 
 
4 hours later…
9:21 PM
@sqlab Can't promise a date, but I can tell you things are looking promising for a more stable and adaptable Rebol3 core. The work was motivated by my needs for stability and cleanliness of Ren/C++ and Ren Garden; and this means that what's coming is going to be tailored to that. It will be up to those with stakes in other areas (R3 GUI, etc) to take charge of making sure those things work.
 

« first day (1677 days earlier)      last day (2103 days later) »