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7:02 PM
ahaha good call :P
I'll order chinese food that'll do me xD
 
@OMGtechy Well you picked a kind of problem that is well-suited to Haskell, and done nicely and efficiently in that model. The thing is that in Rebol it is more likely to try and flatten things out so that you'd have [1 3 4 7] and an understanding that it is treated as records skipped by 2, or more verbosely [[1 3] [4 7]].
That absence of markup and semantic structure can be very much like skydiving without a parachute if you're like me and think everything should have a nice lockdown, as graphs of meaning. It would seem like Rebol encourages an even less formal model than what I've already complained about with Python/JS/Ruby
And in the particular case of MAP! it was certainly one of the things that people wanted to have as its own type, unique from handling a block as block.
 
Which begs the question, why do you like rebol?
 
@HostileFork not where I'm from; begs the question is more common
 
I wouldn't care if there wasn't an implicit thing begs the question is used for, which has a historic basis and is useful in the toolbox of argumentation.
 
7:11 PM
it's a figure of speech which you understood perfectly :P
 
@OMGtechy I am interested to see just how much can be accomplished with a very controlled dependency stack, especially where domain specific languages are concerned. See slides: metaeducation.com/media/shared/rebol/e-rebolus-unum.pdf
I suppose it would be analogous to asking why you should have a good solid toolbox in your house of useful tools that don't require electricity to run.
A good power drill can do lots of things...if you have different screwhead bits, it's good for putting in or taking out screws.
But not so great when your power is out and you need to unscrew some box related to fixing the power system.
Rebol and Red are drawing some lines in the sand about how large they'll get, or what dependencies to permit. It's not constantly pushing and making you press "Y" to accept a sudo apt-get that needs to install more and more. And in an era where every app update is pushing tens of megabytes around, you really have no idea what's happening.
 
I don't agree with that
but I do agree with what's in the slide
the basic tools making the language rather than the language making the basic tools
it's very ... meta
 
I don't think I said anything particularly contentious.
 
@HostileFork I just talked to Carl. He said he gave the rebol/rebol github keys to Andreas. And also he thinks that @kealist has admin control. He told me he gave Andreas permission to handle the administration of admin privileges. :-)
8
 
@Respectech Reaaaally?
 
7:24 PM
@HostileFork Yup. He said he had been breathing more easily because he felt it was in good hands.
 
@Respectech @earl ^-- Is that enough that we migrate rebolsource to become github rebol/rebol? At this point RenC is going to need to be a fork, but I guess just slowly take features/fixes out of it under more of a due process.
So one step of unforking, then one step of forking, so we've got two and both can stay in motion.
@Respectech Thanks for getting the word. I assume what will be done is as initially planned however... to keep a branch and download available for "how things were". If Andreas could get rebol.org DNS as well then rebolsource could presumably comfortably become downloads.rebol.org (or whatever)
 
I don't think I have access to rebol/rebol...
 
@OMGtechy A bit more of the spirit to understand is also here. Rebol is sort of the "anti-XML" rebol.com/article/0108.html
The space it carved out is how it gets some credit from Douglas Crockford, for getting him to make JSON. (Back in the day, Crockford was trying to open-source or clone Rebol, but decided he'd found more interesting stuff to do as a "JavaScript superstar", which apparently now grants him the right to be rude to people over email.)
 
7:43 PM
@Morwenn Got the undefined behavior thing to work, and yay, lots of new fun things like:
../src/core/f-enbase.c:250:19: runtime error: left shift of 1701733421 by 4 places cannot be represented in type 'REBINT' (aka 'int')
../src/core/t-typeset.c:106:5: runtime error: store to misaligned address 0x60c00001148c for type 'REBU64' (aka 'unsigned long long'), which requires 8 byte alignment
0x60c00001148c: note: pointer points here
  ec 00 00 00 fc ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff be be be be  be be be be be be be be  00 00 00 00 be be be be
 
@Respectech That is really good news.
 
@HostileFork I agree it is good news!
 
7:59 PM
:-)
 
@Respectech Thank you very much for explicitly confirming.
 
We've had it informally confirmed for a while here. The approved plan from the conference was that we'd continue to keep a marked branch as Carl had approved available, and associated downloads.
Then the master branch would climb along forward as bugs and such were patched.
@MarkI So now looking at these: undefined behavior sanitizer. "Fun." :-/
 
8:24 PM
Not sure it is a good news, imo just talks ...
When actually this rights delegation happened?
 
@pekr If Carl has said "yes, I consider it delegated, Andreas is in charge now--it is in good hands" and is confirmed and committed to saying that publicly...that would be a first, because he has not said that to me. He has said delegation needed to happen but always left it hanging to "Let me get in touch with Andreas and talk about it..."
So if @Respectech has quoted him accurately, saying "it has been done" if that is his opinion, then we can consider it done also.
 
@HostileFork Well, only if @earl thinks it has been done.
 
@MarkI There's a related question of "what's the benefit if others don't step up". But I think at minimum just getting beyond CureCode would be good.
 
Well, the question is - when actually did that happen? Is that a new news? Because - if it is like that for a year e.g., and nothing happened since then, it is not good ...
 
@pekr Maybe it's purposeful... to give Red time to catch up. :-)
And for people to do some thinking before being too worried about coding.
Bugs can be fixed, design flaws... harder.
 
8:35 PM
Pity Earl does not have much time for rebolling lately. BrianH contributes to Ruby, Ladislav is MIA ... so - you seem to be almost the alone soldier of fortune for R3 :-)
 
@pekr @ShixinZeng works on it every day...
 
He works on the needs of his company. If R3 benefits, that's cool. But it is a bit different situation imo ...
Of course that's cool, that we have Atronix onboard ... Saphir seems to be MIA too ...
 
My multi-pronged goal is to have a next-generation C++ binding set up for Red that it uses when the C++ embedded moment comes... as well as to assist with the incubation pre-bootstrap with an open-source and debugged cross-platform interpreter from a conventional toolchain.
(And of course, bring my Rebmu nanovirus goals to fruition...)
 
8:50 PM
@HostileFork Could be done. Can you send me a sketch of how you see the lettering working around the current logo?
Or proposed [c]
 
@rgchris No vision in particular other than written as "Ren/C" and looking somewhat stylistically consistent in the same sketchy style, with maybe the Ren being less sketchy than the C somehow. (?)
A bit in the spirit of how I did Flatworm (a case where I found the picture, and then kind of tried to get the text style to match)
 
9:24 PM
@HostileFork Told ya. Things work while they probably shouldn't.
 
@Morwenn Apparently most processors these days can still do it (read/write unaligned), just slower
 
Everything has a price.
Put some alignas(something) and we're done.
(Joking, I never used that and don't know how it should be used)
 
@Morwenn That particular one is actually "my bug" -- well, as in the alignment issue was something that I caused to happen (I think). But it's because I was taking invisible dependencies out between types, where routines were assuming the same offset in two different structures of an unsigned 64-bit int
So macros would pick the field out and not know which struct type was actually behind it.
I've been axing all that
And actually deliberately reordering the cells so that anything with the old assumption would mess up
 
Eh, that's exactly the kind of things I don't want to have to deal with :D
 
Old-style C casts ... eeeevil
 
9:36 PM
Evil, but the worst is that you can't do a global file/project search to find them.
 
I think I like doing padding by throwing in a native void *pad; into the union, vs having ifdefs and such to try and figure out how to compensate.
Then if you are feeling extra paranoid, assert the union is a correct multiple of sizeof(void*) or something.
I'd say rather than:
#if defined(__LP64__) || defined(__LLP64__)
	REBINT	padding; //make it 32-bit
#endif
It'd be cleaner to just throw void *pad into the union. What do you think?
 
@HostileFork Carl made it explicitly clear to me that Andreas had the keys to move rebol/rebol forward, up to and including assigning other admins.
 
@Respectech Well it's enough for me, and what I'd really like to see as task #1 is the GitHub issue migration...
 
alignas(int64_t)
 
@Morwenn Still trying to keep it building more or less under C89... and the more plain it can be the better.
 
9:43 PM
Oh... It would have worked with C11.
 
Just trying to finesse it with less conditional behavior on the 64-vs-32-bit builds
@Morwenn Overall the build as C vs C++ stuff is going pretty well, though if I ever made the structs anything other than POD then all hell is going to break loose, but I actually have laid some rough groundwork for it
 
Food for thought (and ears).
@HostileFork Too bad that PODs are more restrictive in C++03 than in C++11.
 
@Morwenn Yup, hm, makes me wonder how much you've followed the history and if you missed some of the stuff: youtube.com/watch?v=lVcCCW8puSY
 
@HostileFork Time to listen to another music and I jump to yours.
Too much noise around me, I don't understand what it says :/
 
9:54 PM
« becoming a pope or something like that »
 
@Morwenn Or something.
 
That's how I roll with my friends.
 
Well, I get up every morning and it's either work on software or go be Pope... and usually the software wins.
 
Well, realizing how fucked up the society is is one thing. Finding your place in it is another one.
 
10:08 PM
Up to 7 chapters in my Rebol 3 interactive tutorial: video.respectech.com:8080/microbo/invoice.r3
 
@Respectech You might want to run by @rebolek what it would take to adapt that to delegate the web-structure stuff to lest
 
@Morwenn Good sounds but possibly does pace a bit better at 1.25x. It's hard to follow a theme. I think the challenge in software and information in general going forward is going to be this differentiation of signal from noise... and authenticity vs. inauthenticity. Recurrent Neural Networks link, via Adrian.
 
10:23 PM
Haha, I forgot that you liked structure in music while I liked structured chaos :D
 
10:53 PM
@HostileFork I'm using my JSID dialect for the tutorial. Lest is good, but I have a different end target in mind with JSID.
 
11:19 PM
@HostileFork I like this, HF. But wouldn't readability imply you'd have to grok by typedef name how many void*s big they were supposed to be?
Some overarching design document, maybe, just wondering ...
 
@Respectech I like JSID and it's different from Lest, Both are coming from different directions. Lest's main purpuse is to build static HTML page. JSID builds everything with JS. Lest should use JSID for interactive stuff, not replace it.
 
@MarkI Well I've asserted here that there's one "pointer sized thing" for all the header data, and then three more "pointer sized things" that each type defines.
I guess if cells are going to be canonized that strongly, then saying a value has "three slots" or something would make a standard of pointing out slot one, slot two, slot three...
 
@HostileFork Works for me! Simple and clear.
 
@MarkI @qtxie drew some pictures some time ago for Red, and I think that if Rebol and Red converged as much as possible that would be good. For one thing, Red would someday need to be 64-bit so having consensus on plans/terms is good.
It seems there are so many different terms used here, like Cell vs. Value, or Node vs. Series, and hammering it all into consistent shape would be good
 
@Respectech Also, JSID could use Lest for static pages when required. It looks huge (it's around 100 kB now), but the core is much smaller. It just needs to separate different parts properly (I'm trying to use R3's module system for this and it's HHAAARRDDDD).
 
11:31 PM
@rgchris Permalinks on the altme Rebol reflector seem to give a random message vs. the one you click on... are they working for you?
 
11:48 PM
Jeez. It's harder than I thought to find pictures of the original, pre-minifig LEGO people
They are the LEGO people time forgot...
That's all I got so far. Did they have a name?
I think they represent a good example of how a design was corrected, and you might ask me how I would consider the minifigs to be a step up from these given my LEGO alligator philosophies
The reason minifigs are better is because, well, firstly I don't think they're that much worse in terms of breaking the LEGO model. These things are monstrosities which make a vague nod toward being LEGOs, sort of, as body segments are whatever they call those 2x2 unit blocks.
Minifigs are cuter and they have a unique property that other LEGO things do not. They are a focal point for projection of the self. As such, they are properly scaled to the kinds of constructions a LEGO set as distributed was expected to be able to build.
 
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