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01:00 - 21:0021:00 - 23:00

1:12 AM
@HostileFork Well, nothing TOO exciting, other than Carl is working on ideas to help with Rebol adoption including a lot of consideration about what the hangups are that other programmers have.
Lunch was really good, though!
 
@Respectech Any non-NDA things you can say about what he has to say on not being willing to let github rebol/rebol even integrate known/clear bugfixes, and letting it languish for years? How does he see that? He's expressed (at times) willingness to give a nod to letting others do what he won't put the time into...then it gets held up.
It's just not tenable, so he's forcing a fork, is that what he wants? Rebol can't be fixed, at all, by anyone but him? If he had said that--and that was clear from the start--we'd have not wasted time on the premise that rebol/rebol would be a place to look to
I realize that the whole project is everyone bringing in their own ideas to the point where it's not what he intended. (I'm guessing much of what I'm doing now is not anything he would want, but then again the cat doesn't like having the flea stuff put on either and will howl and scream) But I don't think I've asked for what I'm doing to be accepted... I was just hoping that the rebolsource/rebol fork could be avoided.
Now I have to fork rebolsource, which is already a step removed, and it hurts coherence.
Lately I've been rather condemning of the code practices, because the negligence has pushed me to the side of beginning to assume deliberate ill will. I'd be less critical if the process were allowed to flow and fixes happening, but it starts to feel like a stubborn and stonewalling position. To know that people are willing to work with you, hear you, and to care nothing about it. I've spent years being the last person to give up, but I'm kind of there now.
I have told him that if I had that much attention on any project, I wouldn't waste it. I guess it just doesn't mean much to him.
Maybe this is what happens to megalomaniacs who had world takeover projects and they're more resentful of their dozen-or-so followers because of how few they seem. I dunno.
Perhaps I romanticize it a bit. Like Jerry Maguire taking the fish and the one secretary who goes with him. "These fish have manners, and they're coming with me."
Heh, that's a recut! Original: youtube.com/watch?v=6ZZI6-zh0GM
The viral hacked video outranks the official. Welcome to the new age.
 
 
5 hours later…
6:33 AM
@HostileFork Why? You have seen this? theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/07/…
Is he afraid gay's want to marry HIM??
 
@iArnold JavaScript does let you make things with lots of pretty rainbow colors. Maybe.
Well, didn't know about that. I dunno. I actually think it's the wrong direction to try and get the government more involved in people's personal lives or giving you different rights due to married or non-married status. It seems very "none-of-the-governments-business" to me. If I want to visit someone in the hospital and they're unconscious or something, or manage an inheritance, I think we should be doing that using a system that is more legitimate and vetted.
@iArnold But people have their flaws. Thomas Jefferson and George Washington owned slaves. And both of them also designed programming languages in under two weeks that wrecked the art of software development, causing untold damage for decades to come. So who are we to judge?
 
6:51 AM
Government is holding most of its citizens as slaves LOL. Keeping slaves was more common practise back then, so it is easy to condemn that by the standard we now have.
 
And that's beyond the status quo of pedestrian slavery--all in the privately contracted prison industry.
But who are we to speak of such things in this forum.
 
We have a discussion in this country too about our slavery history. A small minority of people descending from slaves, never ever had to suffer slavery themselves is constantly pionting out this issue to the nation effectively stating all of our ancestors did own slaves but only a small minority of our nation was rich enough to own slaves, most of people we are descending of were only hardworking people barely making a living of the land.
 
And I need a break in any case, l8r...
@iArnold If it moves you, do something about it. But Rebol and Red are tackling a different piece of the puzzle... so let us focus on that part here. Emancipating people from technology they cannot read or understand or control.
 
@HostileFork Yes that is a very problematic situation, and completely unneccesary if punishment were more realistic, more opportunity to make a decent living so less need to do desperate things involving drugs and guns.
 
Zzzz....
 
6:57 AM
@iArnold What does his personal opinion on some unrelated subject has to do with being CEO of Mozilla?
 
@HostileFork The other battle is fought already by others and that fight just goes on without an end. Fighting the fight using improvements in Rebol and Red is a better cause I chose
@rebolek As if firefox does not have gay developers, great boss then you have.
You should be very reluctant in choosing what to support if you are CEO.
 
Well Steve Jobs was a terrible person but successful CEO.
 
7:20 AM
We all have our flaws, I have many myself :-) Time to go back to work, back to Red. And Rebol.
 
 
1 hour later…
8:43 AM
@HostileFork Thomas Jefferson and George Washington designed programming languages?
 
 
4 hours later…
1:19 PM
@Morwenn Pretty abstract. :-) I've been going through some of the Nine Inch Nails I skipped over and it has some instrumentals in it that are interesting: youtube.com/watch?v=6P_YISMJ4sQ
 
Phishing emails are silly:
Dear Valued Bluehost Customer **************.

Your account contains more than 2732 directories and may pose a potential performance risk to the server.
Please reduce the number of directories for your account to prevent possible account deactivation.
 
1:51 PM
posted on May 21, 2015 by szeng

[Comment] Should be fixed by this commit: https://github.com/zsx/r3/commit/961cd59eb39433d93b2843c0774514d835a30cc7

 
@HostileFork That's indeed some pretty interesting sound.
 
2:49 PM
posted on May 21, 2015 by Ed

I use that script: System/ports/serial:[com4] mx: open/binary/direct/no-wait serial://port1/38400/8/none/1 it works fine, but i need a second port on com3 to read data - how can i do this. close mx and set a new port does´t work many thanks

 
3:41 PM
@Morwenn Think I already sent you "Architect" stuff... I met him. I think "The Analysis of Noise Trading" was a particularly interesting album title, and relevant here. :-) youtube.com/watch?v=zsYeWA-BPFA
 
 
2 hours later…
5:28 PM
ello
 
@HostileFork We didn't have a chance to discuss that because of packet-loss due to there being a third-wheel in attendance at lunch. However, I expect to have another chance to talk to Carl in person in the next month or so.
 
@HostileFork just hit this, github.com/red/red/issues/543, I'm surprised such a thing hasn't been fixed yet but I know little of such matters
 
@OMGtechy The reason it hasn't been fixed yet is that Rebol2 is not open source, so the simple tweak to do it cannot be tweaked.
 
damn
 
5:43 PM
@OMGtechy I got very close to a Rebol3 port of Red: github.com/red/red/pull/421
Which would sort all of that out.
Also, it would mean 64-bit Red, and Red on Android building for OS/X or Windows or whatever :-)
 
well all of those things sound good!
When you say close, what happened?
 
I learned a bit through the process, and decided that some things needed to happen.
I'm doing one of those things now
 
ah good to hear :D
 
Red's audience is techie enough right now that my workaround works for that bit for now
 
I'm writing an entropy coder in red just cus
 
5:47 PM
@OMGtechy Bleeding edge stuff... well as I said, do feel free to ask all the questions you might run into. I don't myself do that much Red dev. I did write this as a little test a while ago: github.com/hostilefork/teenage-coding/blob/master/DUNGEON/…
I felt that Red's error reporting and unfinished status made it rather arduous, so I'd suggest starting with Rebol unless you really like digging into "so new no one runs it" stuff.
Hum, well it's not the best example of code by any means, haven't looked at it for a while
 
Does it work? Yes? Then it can't be that bad! xD
 
Yea, it works. But this guy won the prize:
7
A: Dungeon Construction Set

marinusCommodore 64 Basic Man, that was fun. And hard. C64 Basic is almost undebuggable, you can't even use print debugging because the screen is already taken for rendering the dungeon. You know you're having fun when you're writing code like 55250 goto 55110. Dijkstra will kill me. The program uses ...

Too cool.
I just threw in a bounty for that.
 
Clearly it should have been written in Malbolge.
man it's a lot harder to learn a language that doesn't have a ton of content about it around
 
@OMGtechy I'll Rebmu it at some point. If you want your mind blooown: codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/36114/57
 
no no I've been at work all day the last thing I want is my mind blown xD
I can hardly read right now zzzzzz
aww I read it anyway damn
must stop ...
 
6:01 PM
@OMGtechy Hopefully you read what the challenge was...
 
na I'm all over the place at the moment
anyway I need to stop reading
ok success I have stopped
now to read about rebol and red facedesk
 
@OMGtechy Well if you're doing some language design, we might be able to save you time... either by quickly telling you that you're attacking a problem not in the domain being solved, or showing you other ways to model a problem.
But that means publishing!
 
what?
 
You should describe your language, its goals, etc. and put it up on GitHub.
 
I will, in time.
well, on bitbucket but open sourced
 
6:04 PM
Publish early, publish often...
 
you see I normally do that, but for something like this it's a matter of "too many chefs" if the whole world suddenly starts poking at it
I need to do my thing
add more peeps
get the flow going
then release to the wild
I am normally the guy nagging for something to be open sourced
 
@OMGtechy Stay normal, then.
 
Be patient :P
wow I just found one of my old projects that was about compiling random strings of english aha
completely useless of course, but damn fun to play with
and some later stuff which was very English-esk in syntax
once again not nice to use but fun to play with
anyway, back to red
 
yeah seen it, it's cool :D
intercal is one of my favourite esoterics
 
6:11 PM
@OMGtechy Rebmu is the best of all esoterics. No bias here.
Cited on the GolfScript page, even: golfscript.com/golfscript
 
I think our definitions of esoteric vary
ah seems it's quite vague
An esoteric programming language (sometimes shortened to esolang) is a programming language designed to test the boundaries of computer programming language design, as a proof of concept, as software art, or as a joke. The use of esoteric distinguishes these languages from programming languages that working developers use to write software. Usually, an esolang's creators do not intend the language to be used for mainstream programming, although some esoteric features, such as visuospatial syntax, have inspired practical applications in the arts. Such languages are often popular among hackers and...
I thought of them as "as hard to use as possible"
seems that's just a subset
@HostileFork could you point me to some info about reading files in red? Everything I'm finding about rebol says "read" but that doesn't seem to work in red
 
@OMGtechy Well that sits in one of the many "bleeding edge" bits, and if I didn't have to take off I could explain to you why file I/O is dependent on PORT! and how PORT! is underlyingly an OBJECT!, and that Red hasn't put any official file I/O in yet as objects were only recently done... so everyone messing with I/O to files is doing it via bindings at-the-moment: groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/red-lang/_oVbZGaVid4/W7w3h81wv-EJ
I do not personally use Red at this time. I'm working on upgrading Rebol.
 
Ah ok, thanks :) Looks like I should just use rebol in the meantime ...
 
I test things when I see Red deviating, and go "hey... hey. Look."
 
34 mins ago, by HostileFork
I felt that Red's error reporting and unfinished status made it rather arduous, so I'd suggest starting with Rebol unless you really like digging into "so new no one runs it" stuff.
I should have listened D:
and aha
 
6:23 PM
Well, it's okay to be interested in new things that are half finished, that can be a good time or bad time. Depends on your psychology. Do you think of yourself as a user or a co-designer? This is the open source era.
(And isn't it odd, after all, that only two industries refer to their customers as "users"?)
 
Well I think some understanding of rebol will help with understanding red
I would like to get involved with designing, but learning the rebol way of thinking whilst trying to use a language that isn't very user friendly yet it a little much
one at a time I think
 
Really the thing about Rebol is when you do something weird, like try and write C in it, and get all mad and want to think of it as "the worst language ever"...
 
I felt the same about Haskell at first
 
Then you bring your complaint to those who've used it for a while and they show you a refactorization that you go "whoa"
Yeah, same kind of thing
 
I was the same with vim too
and C
although not Python interestingly
C# had a few eeks
 
6:27 PM
If you're thinking at the C level or Java level or any of the rest, and you don't use Rebol as intended, you will write really bad C or Java styled Rebol.
You can do it, but it will be miserable.
I think the "you can do it" isn't an insignificant point, though.
@OMGtechy A Deep Lake
 
Well in Python I started writing very C-like code at first, but the more I learnt about the language the more I moved over to the Python way of doing things
I except more of the same from rebol
 
@RebolBot
condition: [n < 4]
body: [
    print n
    n: n + 1
]
n: 0
while condition body
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
0
1
2
3
== 4
 
@OMGtechy ^-- There's a sort of poignancy in that, in terms of the mechanics and what the deal is with the language.
And not all of these mechanics are trivial.
 
?
 
6:36 PM
@OMGtechy ? you don't understand the example?
 
I don't see what point you're trying to make?
I understand the example
 
@OMGtechy Do you know any language that does that?
 
I'm pretty sure Haskell can do something similar
i.e. referring to variables that don't yet exist
but it's more a pattern matching thing I guess
 
Haskell isn't imperative, so what it does is always forcing you into its way
 
agreed
 
6:37 PM
Which isn't bad; it's discipline, but it's not always what you want or need
 
well I've got a file reading now which is nice
which makes me think ...
@RebolBot
print read http://chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/291/rebol-and-red
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/access-cannot-open.html
    *** ERROR
** Access error: cannot open: %index.html reason: -3
** Where: read
** Near: read %index.html
 
dammit!
 
There's some level of security options
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
#{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 
6:39 PM
boom
 
Yes, you can remotely ask RebolBot to get URLs
 
@RebolBot
print list-dir
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Not found:
 
I could have endless fun with this thing aha
 
@RebolBot
copy/part to-string read hostilefork.com 100
 
6:46 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== {<!doctype html>
<html lang=en>
<head>
^-<meta charset=utf-8>
^-<meta name="google-site-verification" c}
 
Ugh. I have tabs in my HTML? That's gotta go.
New item in the infinite queue.
 
ahaha
hell yeah
I am starting to get some of the key ideas down and so far it's nice
 
@OMGtechy If you hit anything that's confusing ask around here first; because we can tell you if it's "endemic design issue" or "just this thing no one has fixed yet"
There's stuff in both categories, but the latter is the one I'm focusing on
 
7:12 PM
Thanks :)
 
@OMGtechy You have piqued my curiosity:
>> list-dir
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Not found:
 
>> what-dir
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== %/users/try-REBOL/program/
 
@MarkI aha glad to :D
 
7:22 PM
>> change-dir %.. list-dir
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Not found:
 
>> what-dir
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== %/users/try-REBOL/program/
 
>> source list-dir
 
dammit
 
7:22 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
list-dir: make function! [[
    "Print contents of a directory (ls)."
    'path [file! word! path! string! unset!] {Accepts %file, :variables, and just words (as dirs)}
    /l "Line of info format"
    /f "Files only"
    /d "Dirs only"
    /r "Recursive"
    /i indent
    /local files save-dir info
][
    save-dir: what-dir
    switch type?/word :path [
        unset! []
        file! [change-dir path]
        string! [change-dir to-rebol-file path]
        word! path! [change-dir to-file path]
 
Ah. It's the read that fails (files: attempt [read %./]).
 
>> list-dir %./
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Not found: ./
 
>> list-dir %/users/
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Not found: .
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
1              CMS            ODS            OSM            Rui
run            tmp            Barend         Bart           Wilf
demo           klad           open           test           DeRoos
AnneSedee      Freddy         REBOL          Peter          hosts
config.sqlite  Mulder         Tiffin         Syllable       MartinDudokVanHeel
last-request.txt              _mongrel2.conf mongrel        fossil
EnlightenedSculptures         administrator  Lenneke        .template
 
7:24 PM
oo
 
@OMGtechy Now now be careful!
 
>> list-dir %/usr/bin/
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Man            SEd            TAr            Zip            bin
etc            kbd            lib            man            Less
PCRE           Ruby           _lib           dhcp           gawk
glib           grub           gzip           info           sbin
tiny           wget           BinaryUtilities               Cheyenne
diffutils      7-Zip          Fossil         BLFS-BootScripts
AltME          Boron          liberation-fonts              Links
NginX          _include       bzip2          expat          gnupg
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
env            gcc            make           perl           clear
rsync          dbus-daemon    ranlib         python         install
dbus-uuidgen
 
@MarkI :P
 
We know it's not completely sandboxed yet ...
 
7:26 PM
well now I want to see if I can make it execute arbitrary python code
 
@OMGtechy You are joking I assume.
 
Nope, but I'm not going to do anything nasty don't worry
>> call /usr/bin/python -h
 
We love our RebolBot, and get offended if she's abused ...
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-expect-arg.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: call does not allow refinement! for its command argument
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
hmm, I wonder if I can do this elsewhere then
yeah I can on try.rebol.nl
 
7:28 PM
@OMGtechy You can try it directly on try.rebol ... jinx
 
thanks :)
ahaha
 
and call takes a string argument....
 
yep got it working now :D
 
Is there a python code for ideone?
 
as in can it run python?
yes
 
7:30 PM
@OMGtechy Ok thanks I forgot.
 
no probs :)
are escape characters in rebol like in other languages?
i.e. \n \t \" etc
 
@OMGtechy Horribly, horribly, NOT. :)
 
oh :P how do I escape a double quote then?
 
They are their own beasties ... use hat ^
 
thanks :)
alright enough breaking the bot
back to work for me
as rebol 3 in a "usable" state?
or is it much like red atm?
ah I've hit a difference between rebol 2 and 3 already xD
 
7:51 PM
@OMGtechy Which one? Rebol 3 should be very usable.
 
read/binary
thanks :)
I was reading rebol 2 documentation and wondering why it wasn't working in 3
 
@OMGtechy Yah, that's a big 'un, read in R2 auto-converted to strings, now you have to do it yourself.
 
@OMGtechy we (Atronix) use R3 in production
 
@ShixinZeng well that's as certain an answer as ever!
thanks to you both
 
@OMGtechy You are welcome, from both of us :)
 
8:03 PM
anyone feel like helping me debug ? :)
given that I know naff all of rebol it's gunna be fairly simple stuff
 
8:21 PM
@HostileFork are values passed by assignment by any chance? getting some odd behaviour which reminds me of a gotcha in python
 
8:35 PM
@OMGtechy What's the problem?
 
source: open %encode.rebol

map: []
foreach data read source [
	either current: select map data [
		print current
	][
		append map [data [count: 1]]
	]
]

print map
is not doing what I think it should
all the "data" bits are the same
like some kind of reference or something is being passed and mutated each loop iterations
 
Well, for one thing, your block [data [count: 1]] is not reduced, so you will be appending that literal pair of values every time.
There are other issues though, give me a sec here ...
 
yeah that's fine
the end goal is to have the count incremented
 
Can you post a line or two of your encode.rebol file?
 
for now I just want them all set to 1 with the value as the key
that's all of it
it's reading itself :P
it's rebol 3 btw
 
8:42 PM
One other thing is that read source returns a binary, so all of your data items will be integers, not what you were expecting I am sure ...
So you have to to-string it, if that's what you want.
 
no I'm expecting integers :)
 
OK then.
Looks like read doesn't like port!s, which is what open returns.
 
thing is though, when I just print out what it reads it gives me some sane values
 
Can you try source: read %encode.rebol and then foreach data source [your stuff]?
 
will do :) thanks for this
does exactly the same
 
8:47 PM
@OMGtechy I can't get mine to return anything but #{} when I read my port ...
 
yeah I had that issue earlier
 
@OMGtechy And you fixed it by ... ?
 
read/part source 1 works, and so on
and looping through it in a foreach works
source: open %encode.rebol

map: []
foreach data read source [
	print data
]
 
OK I got it working.
 
:D
 
8:58 PM
And both copy and read seem to work!
 
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