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12:00 AM
But I was confused because I was getting them even though I had the updated valgrind. I wondered what was up, because things were seeming to work...
@ShixinZeng ^-- Any of your memory checks catch this one, BTW? Are your deployments 64-bit or 32-bit to clients?
@iceflow19 (Dunno if you watched the Atronix video or not to know who they are...but they've invested in Rebol, and Shixin works there.)
 
I look forward to a polished RenCpp. I think that will really help bridge the gap with the c++ programmers.
@HostileFork Ya I have, interestingly I live in Toledo, where one of their two locations are. And I also have a background with automation, Ive worked for both Rockwell and ABB as an intern.
I wonder if Atronix would be hiring?
 
@iceflow19 If they are, you've got the contacts here :-) I was thinking it would be good if they had someone, even just an intern, to help with the integration of what I'm doing so that we can fuse up RenC and their repo
Are you coming up on general job market stuff or still schooling for a bit?
 
Summer work predominantly, maybe part time in the fall. This summer though Im already working for a company out in Maumee. But I may be available this fall and next summer depending. I'm planning on going for Masters.
@HostileFork :-)
 
12:25 AM
@iceflow19 Well worth keeping in mind. And contribution to Rebol and Red may be a bit of a risk, but so were other things at certain points. I know the guy who made Rails Tutorial, and by getting in early while it was still bleeding at the edges he found a profitable niche.
(It may not seem "early" to get involved with this stuf, but I still say it is. So it is. :-P)
 
@HostileFork lol
 
@iceflow19 As I go over it, I find things like this: github.com/red/red/issues/1181
And it's not that it can't be fixed, it can. But how do you rewrite a digital elephant? (One byte at a time...)
And the thing that you get after you whittle it away has this really pleasing set of properties, which if the unpleasant properties can be eliminated or at least reigned in... will leave something very unique.
 
Personally I think Red and Rebol have so much potential. Red is consistently making progress, and Rebol (Official) is sort of in limbo though.
 
@iceflow19 Well, if I survive the process, it's about to get unstalled.
A couple of reasons. One: I think Red needs a stable bootstrap from a conventional toolchain, to Rebol, to Red... and should not bootstrap Red-to-Red any time soon at all. Only after some mature clients feed back into the design.
Two: Red as currently conceived doesn't have answers to some of the more interesting dynamism of Rebol. Not to say it can't find tradeoffs and compromises--it could draw boundary lines and say "this module is interpreted" vs. "this module is compiled", but a true hybrid raises a lot of issues that have not been formally analyzed...and will be tough to do.
Three: Red/System is simpler and not as well-instrumented as C with all of its tools, including an optional C++ build. I can (with time, and sweat, and puzzlement) understand and bolt down the Rebol sources. The same compile-time and runtime tools are simply not available in Red/System yet.
 
@HostileFork I think Red should wait on bootstrapping too. Preferably if R3 were to unstall, then it might be better to port it to that, :/
 
12:38 AM
Four: DocKimbel's likelihood to accept the kinds of changes I'd like to see or experiment with are very low, even if it's modest. He has his plan, he'll do his plan, you follow it or you go on your own.
 
@HostileFork True. But I cant imagine that it isn't solvable, like you said its going to take time and analysis.
 
So really, I'm just joining the evolutionary mindset here. That the only way to "win" in this ecosystem is to stand up for your ideas, show them hold water, and see whose attention it can draw. I'm biasing some of that toward Ren Garden--which is my short-term bet against Rebol-Rewrites-every-GUI-on-Every-Platform-in-Rebol.
 
@HostileFork Once Red is a little more rounded. I'd like to see R/S get some TLC.
 
@iceflow19 He says a later iteration will have (for instance) const.
I'm still huffy about things like not tending to the idea that print in Red/System doesn't append a newline...
 
@HostileFork I find it annoying myself...
@HostileFork Any word on how that would be implemented?
 
12:44 AM
@iceflow19 I'm not privvy to details, you might ask in red dev chat. But I think it's a good example of the sort of thing that I find very important, while some other people say it's of marginal importance... or even, that the "code pollution" you see when 'const' pops up all over the place sacrifices readability that is not proportional to the benefit given.
 
@HostileFork Well and remember we do need to think about trying to stay within the general bounds of red syntax.
 
(Not only do I disagree on that one, but even the C89 standards committee disagreed)
@iceflow19 Well using a keyword isn't necessarily how to do it. I dunno, there might be applications of a get-word to mean read only, a set-word to mean you write it...
Who knows.
But one thing that you might want to start ramping up an opinion on is the indexing model.
Something about the Rebol C sources is that when it needs an index, it's C, so it's going to be zero based.
When you ask for an index? out of something, though, there's a +1 on that.
Red/System aimed for consistency with Rebol/Red, in using 1-based indexing
 
x: as-const 123 ??
 
@RebolBot
x: 123
protect 'x
x: 456
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-locked-word.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: protected variable - cannot modify: x:
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
12:50 AM
@iceflow19 I was thinking more parameters than arbitrary variables, but I don't know what the syntax answer would be in Red/System.
In Rebol proper, you could write:
 
In Red system though x is, well, a classic variable. So I would think that would have to be taken care of on initialization.
 
@RebolBot
const: func ['var [set-word!] value] [set var value protect to-word var]

const x: 123
print [{x is} 123]

x: 456
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-locked-word.html
    x is 123
*** ERROR
** Script error: protected variable - cannot modify: x:
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
@iceflow19 ^-- Perhaps you see why this language is, known to only a few people, as "programming crack". :-)
Reminds me of Go (the game, not the language)
 
@HostileFork Yes, I'll admit I'm addicted to Rebol, just ask my friends at college :)
 
12:56 AM
@iceflow19 Well I hope to not let you down with the RenC release, it's... coming.
 
@HostileFork Go is a fun game, I'm not to good at it though. Me and a friend sometimes play.
 
I did some "filing" and now I'm back on this one:
@RebolBot
        a: copy []
        loop 200'000 [a: append/only copy [] a]
        recycle
        true
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
 
Hmmm... RebolBot didn't care for that :-)
@iceflow19 Any guesses why?
 
200'000 ?
 
1:00 AM
>> 200'000 + 100
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 200100
 
Apostrophes are legal for helping delimit things, I think that's another french-ism perhaps that they use instead of commas (they use comma for decimal point)
The problem is that the garbage collector uses a mark and sweep that is recursive on the C stack.
So a nested block structure of depth N can require N recursive function calls to check it.
A real stack overflow is a bad thing, worse than other kinds of errors...because really there is no standard way to prevent it. If you're writing an interpreter you have to become the warden and bound your client.
This is where a memory allocation differs from a stack overflow. If you ask for more memory you have a place where you may be denied... via a throw in C++, or a NULL back from malloc in C. And yet, everything you had before is still good.
But if you go to call a function and run out of stack space, how would you be told that?
 
idk... == ** Internal error: stack overflow?
 
@iceflow19 When you get a stack overflow in Rebol, it's not talking about the C stack--which is running and calling functions and started at main and kept calling things afterward...
It has an interpreter data stack, and it is responsible for that, via malloc and reallocating via copying and freeing the old one.
 
@HostileFork The last comment was meant as a joke.
 
1:08 AM
@iceflow19 Well, there is a stack overflow error emitted by Rebol, but it pertains to that data stack.
And the controls on that aren't terribly rigorous (yet)
 
Is there some way to estimate if your getting close to overflowing the c-stack?
 
Anyway, the reason that Rebol dies on the code above is from overflowing the C stack, just calling Mark_Series too many times... you wind up trying to get a 200,000 deep stack... and it crashes way before that.
@iceflow19 There is nothing in the C or C++ standard about it. There are OS-specific APIs to set your stack, query how much you have left, etc.
 
Actually it can kill rebols stack too, just try it with 2000 loops.
Are the API's in assembly or C?
 
11
Q: Increase stack size in Linux with setrlimit

asdfreading information about how to increase stack size for a c++ application compiled with gnu, at compilation time, I understood that it can be done with setrlimit at the beginning of the program. Nevertheless I could not find any successful example on how to use it and in which part of the progra...

@iceflow19 Last time I had to mess with that was answering this:
1
A: How many numbers with length N with K digits D consecutively

HostileForkIf one is looking for a mathematical solution (vs. necessarily an algorithmic one) it's good to look at it in terms of the base cases and some formulas. They might turn out to be something you can do some kind of refactoring and get a tidy formula for. So just for the heck of it...here's a take...

 
1:25 AM
@HostileFork Anyways, nice talking. I need to go grab some food. gnight.
 
@iceflow19 Nite!
 
Reading the mythical man month as background entertainment and came across this: "This notion can be fruitfully applied whenever a programming language is being defined. One can be certain that several interpreters or compilers will sooner or later have to be built to meet various objectives. The definition will be cleaner and the discipline tighter if at least two implementations are built initially." ref
2
 
1:49 AM
You could read from this that having both Red and Rebol is a good way of strengthening the language design
 
@HostileFork SIGILL can also be generated when the stack overflows but the real problem is restoring to a sane state.
 
@johnk While not news, it's good to repeat it. :-)
In this case, the dependency of Red on Rebol makes it doubly important.
 
@johnk 1975. Wow. But how would you separate language from implementation, if there was only one implementation :)
 
@MarkI With some kind of thing... starts with S. Rhymes with tech. :-)
 
At least you have a chance for proper language abstraction with two.
@HostileFork Speck? Er, spec, also a non-word ...
 
1:59 AM
@MarkI A speck of a spec is sometimes all you git. :-P
 
@MarkI 1975, but still a lot of the comments are quite valid. I only intended on reading the last chapter which was written ~20 years later by the author on what he would have changed based on his learning since the book was first published.
FYI book this is the source of the famous "nine women can't make a baby in one month." quote
 
@HostileFork But we're talking about a language here, not a function. Languages don't have "spec"s ...
Well, that's dumb, I guess they do.
But they're nothing like function specs, which is all Rebol and Red care about, right? :)
 
@johnk In looking at Rebol's C code I've frequently thought it would have been beneficial for Carl to have read Writing Solid Code and taken its advice seriously.
 
Anyway, I know you know what I mean, technically the source code for any implementation of a language is in and of itself an exact, accurate, and totally useless language "abstraction", to wit, the language that it implements and no other.
 
I've done very little raw C in the past decade and a half, outside of reading/answering SO questions and "catching up"
 
2:04 AM
Said abstractions can only really be useful if they apply to multiple implementations.
But I personally have a big headache when I start hearing talk about "language version numbers". Wait, what? Languages don't change!
It's your implementation of the "language in the abstract" that changes, and may or may not be a more accurate model of it.
 
@MarkI I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean, but I do know that some of the things that needed to be in the Rebol book of foundations would have been a take on "Bindology" (for instance). Non-naive people coming to the language were frequently frustrated by the "what's the point? I've seen appends... I've seen all this...tell me what's different".
An inventory of the mechanics of how to append to series, or deal with them, in the absence of a mathematical model seemed arbitrary and many who might have been intrigued by the actual new concepts were bored by the presentation.
 
@HostileFork Yes, I agree, introductory mind-bending exercises are necessary, perhaps vital, accompaniments.
 
@HostileFork makes that xkcd lisp cartoon event more relevant
 
But what I'm talking about here is that, even at the highest level of understanding, multiple implementations are required for proper abstraction.
 
@MarkI Hence why Don Knuth released TeX initially at version 3... then version 3.1... then version 3.14... then 3.141... etc. Until his death, at which time it will be declared version pi, and all remaining bugs are documented as features.
 
2:09 AM
@HostileFork As tongue-in-cheek as you can get (of course, that's him all over), but I am sure he was trying to get at the point I'm discussing.
 
@MarkI We need an iTeX dialect...
 
@HostileFork I don't know if Carl could read that, unfortunately, and I actually don't blame him. I even think if he had, we'd just be hunting different bugs right now :)
Besides, it's so much fun, repairing mistakes you never would have made, right? SARCASM
I think I just described every job I've ever had.
And, more's the pity, here I am doing it for fun ...
 
@MarkI Well, the thing being that I've not really done any "serious" interpreter work before
 
This dream, this dream, this crazy dream ...
@HostileFork It's all been fun, has it?
 
No.
But... I do like testing out some little ideas and seeing what comes of them, especially the forbidden land of "C/C++"
 
2:15 AM
@HostileFork I meant all the interpreter work you've done before ... not my best joke
 
There is no quicker way to get yelled at on SO than to tag a question as both C and C++ and ask about how to do something in "C/C++"
But if there is "no such language", what is it I'm doing exactly? :-)
 
@HostileFork True dat. I love putting on my resume "I program in C/C++".
 
Heckfire, there was even once a time when I knew C-sharp, C-minus, even C-minus-minus ...
 
@Morwenn --^ video :-)
Fun fact: C-sharp was the name of a project that Microsoft trademarked, which was cancelled... one of the team members from the canceled project had the vanity license plate CSHARP
Years after that failed project, when looking through the "names we have" bin, it was pulled out to name a Java / network based competitor...having no relation whatsoever to what the name was originally taken for.
Kind of like how I repurposed hostilefork into a... uh. Whatever this is.
And I downloaded some stuff called C-minus and/or C-minus-minus back in the day. Might or might not be the same thing.
IIRC some bias toward better native inline assembly support.
@MarkI Was going to ask if you'd looked into Haskell's low level thing, but that seems to be the thing called C minus minus. I haven't messed with that. But I think the thing called C minus I used was indeed an old DOS-style EXE off of BBSes
Anyway, one thing about writing an interpreter is that you really are sort of making the whole thing swim in tar; deferring everything to runtime, to the point where the usual kinds of cleverness for optimizing an ordinary compiled program has less impact. Your input isn't data but a program itself. And every cycle in your processing snowballs on every statement that interpreter runs.
Optimizing an interpreter certainly does seem to lead one to start thinking along wacky lines of where to shave cycles.
Starting a little reading on V8 and trying to learn a bit from it, but it may be hard to apply.
Still trying to avoid dependencies.
 
2:34 AM
Wikipedia calls Lua, Perl, Haskell, and PowerShell "C-family" languages. Looks like Rebol is one of the few that isn't!
@HostileFork And, hopefully, where not to ... :)
 
@MarkI I wonder if some time in the future there will be many "Rebol-family" languages born out of Red?
 
@MarkI There seemed to be some misunderstandings e.g. rebol.net/cgi-bin/r3blog.r?view=0060
 
@WiseGenius As long as there's One Rebol To Rule Them All ...
Or should that be One REN?
 
@WiseGenius I'm not sure, but one reason getting Rebol healthy and in shape is good IMO is because Red gaining momentum could feed people who find themselves more served by the requirements/model of Rebol could go to that instead of just walking away entirely.
 
@MarkI Which one?
 
2:40 AM
@MarkI Best idea I've had so far, I think.
@WiseGenius "THE BATTLE IS BETWEEN TWO 'WOLVES' INSIDE US ALL." => "WHICH WOLF WINS?..." => "THE ONE YOU FEED."
 
@HostileFork Yes, and I think the more popular something gets, the harder to fix things later.
 
@WiseGenius Hence, let's not squander the period that is either pre-popularity or pre-vanish-into-obscurity.
 
@HostileFork Would you say TLS issues are not a concern? The comments don't help me much ...
 
@MarkI I am not precisely a fan of thread-local storage in general. It wasn't up until recently part of the standard (does TCC support it?) And the problem I have specifically with interpreter engines using them is that it suggests you can't have two interpreter engines constructed on one thread that you sandbox from each other and bounce data between... because you've got this one-data-stack-per-thread idea going on.
I'd like to be able in RenC and RenCpp to make N independent Rebol engines and each keep their own state, even in a single threaded program.
And if you guessed that I've got a few steps in this direction already going, you guessed right.
The idea of feeling you have to manually cache thread-locals is not an appealing one to me... and just forgetting about thread locals fits my worldview, but that means a bit more parameter bleed to any stack manipulating function
 
Thanks HF that helps a lot. And FWIW we are in basic agreement so far. Keep up the good work!
Like I need to say that :)
 
2:56 AM
@MarkI Well, doesn't hurt. Sometimes I work, sometimes I watch YouTube videos and try dismantling my MIDI keyboard to figure out why it's not responding to USB power anymore. It's a mixed bag, life.
But the keyboard case in point: technology seems to be defined as "anything really cool that you don't know how it works...and when it breaks, you have to buy a new one"
Not a very sustainable way of working with stuff. More push-back needed. :-) But for now, sleep...
 
@HostileFork Here as well. To the morrow ...
 
 
7 hours later…
10:06 AM
@MarkI I'd like us to draft up a coding conventions document. I've been experimenting with varying levels of tolerance for certain practices, like the if (!(one_line = condition)) return do_stuff(all_on, one_line);
Which is very Rebol-ish. And I think some practices could cross-pollinate, but when the idea of writing Rebol-style C would suggest that you shouldn't be writing the likes of value-100.
My list of things has come to be things like spaces instead of tabs (running against my beliefs of many years ago, but now a certainty), fitting in 80 columns, following the "links" strategy here vs. writing essays in the code itself: blog.hostilefork.com/comments-vs-web-links-2014
In terms of where to migrate issues and how to manage things, I am thinking that there is little choice for me at this time other than to put issues on the RenC tracker.
@rgchris I was thinking of a variant on your "sketchy" logo for RenC, something along these lines:
What do you think? If you're in favor, would you mind doing a retouch and getting it prepped for the "announcement"?
Would be nice if it had some matching typography in the same shading style that said (likely) Ren/C. I'm wondering if Ren/C++ is what the proper RenCpp branding should be (while directories and projects named ren-c and ren-cpp respectively)
 
 
1 hour later…
11:31 AM
@MarkI What's your GitHub account? Is this you?
 
11:48 AM
@HostileFork Unfortunately, no, it was taken. I had to settle for MarkEye.
 
@MarkI Well it's important not to rush into things. Prudent.
 
@HostileFork Files should have an opening block comment, and so should many functions, and if essays are essential to understanding an algorithm or its necessity, that's where they should go, but otherwise I agree with all your points.
@HostileFork I am afraid that that reference escapes me HF.
 
Make a Sphinx documentation to put the essays in (random ad).
 
@Morwenn I really have shifted over into thinking some kind of collaborative out-of-band thing is the right choice for many notes. If a StackOverflow question doesn't exist to probe the phenomenon, make one. It brings it into the open. So I'm sort of becoming anti-comment for anything essay-ish (in implementation)
 
StackOverflow questions are great, unless the essay is really specific to the intrinsics of your projects and there are many of them.
 
11:59 AM
And then all interface documentation should be actionable somehow. With me shifting Rebol into RenC what was once implementation becomes API... so it will need documentation. Not going to use Doxygen though
 
@HostileFork Some necessary comment essays won't make SO's bar, echoing Morwenn, great minds think alike ...
 
@Morwenn Then GitHub issues ATM.
 
Yep, GitHub issues are good too.
 
@Morwenn @HostileFork I need to become more familiar with them, early days yet.
 
I wish there was a really compelling no-lock-in story under GitHub for the non-git-stored material. They've been pretty good in general and I get a "good vibe" but nobody's perfect, and interests change.
 
12:01 PM
I've no issue on any of my GitHub projects, but I don't have any serious project to begin with.
 
Even my "joke" projects are actually quite dead serious. :-)
 
I had this project to compose music and have the beeper play them.
But it was with Game Maker, I didn't know of GitHub back then.
 
@Morwenn Beeper? Like ATOM.EXE?
 
Well, not that good.
That's a screen of the PyQt reboot of the project, but it didn't go anywhere.
The Game Maker version was way more complete despite having hard-coded GUI elements.
Yay, found an old screen.
 
@Morwenn Had easy screencast video capture existed back in the day, I would have captured way more things just as the artifact in action...because ideas age better than implementations.
 
12:12 PM
He, that's not untrue.
 
That's indeed an interesting idea :)
 
@Morwenn It's all part of my "Pathological application framework", which I may wind up just folding into Ren Garden
 
12:46 PM
posted on May 20, 2015 by Stéphane Aulery

Hi Brian, Le lundi 18 mai 2015 à 12:15:08, Brian Dickens a écrit : > > It is lost between two discussions. There is no place to record the > > results of these reflections as a wiki? > > > > You'd been reluctant to sign up for chat...so I didn't want to send you off > to sign up for a Cure

 
@HostileFork thanks for invite, but I'm not sure I can help with C sources.
 
@rebolek You don't have to; it gives you edit/veto/issue power. It's more a sign of bringing people on board and trying to start doing what we have (so far) failed to do, which is make a new umbrella for the C side of the project.
 
Ok then.
 
I am considering even if the best idea is to have no executable in the RenC repo.
To make it a clear "non-competitor", because it is offering something different; the language core as a library.
(Though the fact is that I could hack up a multi-line readline enabled console trivially with that; a far, far easier proposition than Ren Garden was...)
But by holding off on that angle, I can position it as the kernel/core that Rebol distributions would use vs. a brand or distribution in and of itself, which may ruffle fewer feathers.
So it will--at least--not be what I do initially
I will be eliminating the "a-lib" and "RL*" API. It sounds like @ShixinZeng won't miss that much, and I really do not think anyone will. Those interested in those APIs can stick with the existing codebase and I wish them goodluckwiththat.
 
1:30 PM
Er, @HostileFork, just curious, are you MetaEducation?
 
@MarkI I own the domain name metaeducation.com, but that's an organizational account. HostileFork is my individual account. You cannot have a GitHub account that is both user and organization.
So you have to name it something. I like reusing things.
It gives me some slight illusion of control.
 
@HostileFork Right, but check my link, it's referring to a Wikipedia user that I'm sure is you ...
 
@MarkI Seems likely. Only way to tell is if I can provide the source of that hash code eh? :-P
 
I can also be mistaken, if that's important :)
It's just rare to see a "committed user" on Wikipedia.
 
@MarkI Not that rare, that's their recovery process. Whoever hashes a commit earliest on the user page owns it. (Note that I challenge the practice itself, while seemingly participating.)
That's actually inspired by hashing the USCII for "Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." - but the real truth of it is tricky enough that I don't feel telling that gives too much away :-)
The only thing is I need to be able to remember how to regenerate the source if I need to.
 
1:39 PM
Would it be OK with you if I stalled on accepting your invitation? I promise to accept it, but after I'm finished with this phase of l-scan -- I've got too many things competing for my attention right now, sorry.
 
@MarkI Well there's no real obligation entailed, I'm just working on pre-announce. It would be nice to announce with some show of support and people being on board.
Meant as a gesture of trust and paying it forward to try and make the thing we've all not wanted to make.
 
I am 100% committed to (1) REN (2) better C source for (3) better Rebol, and will do my best to further them, but I fear that that can only help you and not the people you are trying to help ...
 
@MarkI Who is it I'm trying to help? :-)
 
@HostileFork I just meant the people you are "announcing" to/for ...
 
Just sorting and organizing things for the people we don't know yet.
 
1:53 PM
@HostileFork Essato (exactly).
 
I may be able to help with better C source code (may) if it's just being pedantic.
 
@Morwenn Def. wait to start looking until I do my commits :-)
I'm lining it all up to build as strict compliant C99 (and C++14) with pedantic and warnings as errors and all that.
While still building as C++98, and... it's a bit tough, because it's not C89 and probably shouldn't be... so it's "sloppy C89 compliant"
 
@HostileFork continue what we discussed about memory poisoning, I have this new commit: github.com/zsx/r3/commit/…
 
Kind of sucks that--for instance--you can't put it in --std as ANSI-C and say "warn me about everything that isn't a C++ style end-of-line comment".
 
which moves the newly free'd node to the end of the free list, so it would be picked up right away upon reallocation
 
2:05 PM
@ShixinZeng Yup, def. going to be better. But still, not quite the degree of freedom a valgrind or address sanitizer has. If you've got one page in the pool you might recycle an address quickly still.
 
@HostileFork in that case, you just need to make the pool bigger. :)
And this commit already helped me reproduce curecode.org/rebol3/ticket.rsp?id=2169 in Atronix builds
 
@ShixinZeng I pinged you on the mistakes of the wchar_t already above... hopefully you saw that bit
 
Yep, I saw that. Thanks for pinging
 
So you want code that compiles with both a C99 compiler and a C++03 compiler with -Wpedantic?
Or C99 and C++14?
 
@Morwenn -Werror -Wextra -pedantic as C++98 and C99... and C++14 and C11. (One cheat though: -Wno-long-long ... there was no standard long long in C++98, though it had been around in a non-standardized form.)*
So I am truly coding in the language StackOverflow claims does not exist: "C/C++" :-)
 
2:17 PM
Let's call that a C/C++ polyglot :)
So you're working in a strictly compatible subset or 4 norms.
 
It has been interesting
 
Sounds interesting.
 
I'm a bit mad about the inlining story though
inline functions seem to be perpetually done incorrectly
 
Same syntax, different semantics, yeah.
 
I'd like to scrap the preprocessor macros as inline technique from Rebol... which also helps in namespacing things. But (a) there's no pre-C99 inline and (b) it's all f'd up even when it's "in the standard"
"What part of inline is so hard to understand? Was it the IN or the LINE part?"
 
2:21 PM
The good thing about macros is that you can make light templates with them.
 
The bad thing about macros is... everything else
 
:-)
 
Macros truly are as fun as they're not.
 
#define RETURN(result) return (result);}

int myfunction1(args) {
    int x = 0;
    // do something
    RETURN(x)

int myfunction2(args) {
    int y = 0;
    // do something
    RETURN(y)

int myfunction3(args) {
    int z = 0;
    // do something
    RETURN(z)
@Morwenn When will the fun end...
^-- apparently someone ran across that in actual code: stackoverflow.com/questions/652788/…
 
Haha, that story about a russian programmer :D
Pushups and stuff if I'm not mistaken.
 
2:32 PM
Rebol's main usage is due to no trustworthy inline functions, and some constants. Nothing too weird.
Which leads me to wonder if all the macros should be spat out by generated code that can pick inline functions vs. macros depending
 
Rebol code generating C code?
 
It already does
And it does it pretty nicely, actually
 
That's roughly what glbinding does: Python code generating XML from C code, then generating C++11 code.
 
Rebol is just really solid and clear with basic expression, and I've got a number of bolts tightened even on that.
I still feel nothing for Python or Ruby or any of those... if you're going to take away my compiler and my certainties, and I'm not going deeper toward Haskell and more certainty, then I should be getting something out of the deal
 
I use Python for quick filesystem manipulation and for scientific programming where it has more than all the libraries you might want.
 
2:41 PM
@Morwenn If one is going that angle I'm sure something evolved from Wolfram Alpha / Wolfram Language and internet connected is better. Shades of OS/1
(note the Rebol logo is third in the icon stack... :-P)
 
Well, something evolved from Wolfram Alpha is probably best suited, but does it also do more common programming tasks? :p
That's what you get with Python: scientific programming and general purpose programming utilities.
 
@Morwenn Anything you don't know how it works and rely on libraries and megabytes of code can do lots of things you want...(and possibly lots of things you don't want)
 
There's also SageMath for scientific and mathematical stuff.
 
Simple and clean.
 
Wondering about criterion for release... but I have a few ambitious targets that I can hopefully hit shortly
 
simple and clean
and clear :-)
What is your take on the Extension mechanism, devices, networking?
IIRC, @earl stated sopmething like some of those parts would be candidates to reimplementation ...
 
@pekr Well, it's much easier to say things should be done differently than to sit down and actually do it differently... everyone's a critic. Not so many people sit down and put their time/money where their mouth is.
Some of the things in the evaluator I have critiqued as "cowboy coding"; few checks, no debug build, lack of any clear invariants. Yet funny enough, I can often find there was a reason it didn't crash. It's non-obvious, but I can trace out why it works... and as long as no one ever changes the system, it will keep working for that incidental reason.
And I have here and there learned new things going over it. But I will say that while I can critique the core, there is a steep drop-off even from there in control and quality of the system as you push outward.
Any ambiguities over who is responsible for freeing allocated memory get much worse
Still, there's some interesting stuff in there. Ideas I'd not have come up with. Broken implementations across the board... but new ideas nevertheless.
I think it's best to treat it as a sketch. A concept can be refined, if there was an idea in the initial drafts.
 
3:30 PM
Random genius syndrome.
 
With no idea, there's nothing. But in Rebol there are a lot of ideas.
For RenCpp's purposes I will probably trend toward scrapping the wacky "let's reinvent IOCTLs" stuff
One guy I knew had a sort of CORBA/C++ based approach to IOCTLs on his own hobby OS, where everything was typed and stamped with GUIDs and such
A project dragged out every few years to poke at.
I'm not sure exactly what the general answer is for when the core cross-platform interpreter needs "stuff done" is... but I know that a lot of what's in there is classic raw-cast junk and cruft that has no future.
Still, it works well enough for some users today. So I say keep it working, just zoned off.
If you really go down to the wire looking at the code underneath a lot of things, it's terrifying... and only works because of an evolutionary iterative process of piecewise patching.
Rebol is by no means unique in having that property in various parts
I can produce crashes or bugs on demand, by inspection or by something caught with a simple addition of a const here or there.
You might be hard pressed to beeline for those cases just throwing random code at the interpreter
But if you work with the code itself you can go "yeah, this just doesn't work, here's how you crash it"
Hrm. If I'd spent my time doing all this with Chrome I think they like, pay you for that
Take over browser, win money
 
It's true that it does not const-qualify most of what should be const-qualified. It struck me when I read through the code because I couldn't tell from the names of the functions what would happen to the variables I fed them and whether they would be latered or not.
 
@Morwenn RenC is const-corrected :-)
 
Already?
 
Yup
 
3:40 PM
That's great news ^^
 
There's lots of great news rolled up in it
I'm just waiting to make the right announcement in a way that "my way or the highway" starts favoring my way vs. the highway :-)
 
Be careful, otherwise you might end up with a new highway near your house and lots of noise.
 
But really, I have to frame it up so that even if it's just me that I still have a success scenario. So patch back into RenCpp, then keep pushing Ren Garden
May 9 at 18:14, by rgchris
@HostileFork @RudolfW.Meijer If nothing else, if Rebol 3 can meet its potential as envisaged here, then it'll force Red to be better.
@Morwenn Gotta run, nice to have you back and talking tho!
 
@HostileFork I might disappear again like I always do :p
See you later :)
 
 
2 hours later…
5:41 PM
Carl asked me out to lunch today. He generally only does that when he has some news. I wonder what this might be about...
Mind you, I might have to sign an NDA before we eat, so I may not be able to tell you all. But if I am allowed to tell, I will.
 
5:56 PM
@Respectech Exciting!
 
6:54 PM
@Respectech :-D
@Respectech Bring a keyhanger with you, you might get the key to the R3 github repo!
 
 
1 hour later…
8:14 PM
@Respectech Feel free to tell him about pending Rebol forkitude and that we still do hold out, hopefully, for rebol/rebol to be delegated... it still would be best!
(Though RenC still needs to be its own thing, it would push the fork-stack down a level because we could make rebol/rebol into more what rebolsource is having to do by proxy by now...to take the bugfixes and such, and be the baseline with less extreme changes.)
 
8:36 PM
Checking for recent mentions of Red. The insightful study of exception handling at hp-code.org/omar/2015/05/20/compiler-construction-how-is-exception-handling-imp‌​lemented-by-programming-languages is a recent top Google hit:
        we wanted to advantage in-depth bargain of how programming languages implements difference doing and how accurately it works inside a hood. we have try to word this in many sub-questions as below.
    What is a apparatus used by programing languages to exercise try { } locate { } blocks (under a hood)? How accurately smoke-stack unwinding works inside? What are a pivotal differences between try { } / locate {} implementations between opposite languages like C++ and Java?   Do they offer differ significantly or are they same?
 
@HostileFork That is some spiffy Japanese-to-English machine translation!
 
@MarkI It's some spiffy Inauthentic Text/Splog generation, by people who really do need to be found and summarily dealt with. But mostly we live in a world where 'may the best spammer win' is kind of the going principle.
 
9:01 PM
Discovered PeterWAWood has a blog apparently, talks about Raspberry Pi a lot: peterwawood.blogspot.com
 
9:42 PM
@Respectech I hope the NDA is not regarding the food.
 
Hey folks
 
>> print ["Yo there," (reverse "yhcetGMO@")]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Yo there, @OMGtechy
 
@HostileFork aha, is that rebol or red? xD
 
red> print system/version
 
9:45 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
0.5.3
 
@OMGtechy Depends on how you ask. :-)
 
>> print system/version
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
2.101.0.4.2
 
nice
red> print ["Yo there," (reverse "yhcetGMO@")]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Yo there, @OMGtechy
 
9:46 PM
So it's both valid rebol and red?
 
looks like it.. red should be able to do that by now
 
@OMGtechy That particular bit of code is. Consistency between languages is an objective, but a less important objective than them sharing a common source structural standard.
 
I see. Interesting.
I've never written any rebol or red until just then aha
I've come to the dark side clearly
 
red is not a direct clone of rebol. they are just some of the same ideas.
 
yeah thought as much, they seem like best buddies that go to the same workplace
they do everything together but they're still not the same person
if rebol and red were programmers, they'd be pair programming all the time
 
9:50 PM
IMHO, red probably has a better future, because of it's slightly more clever underpinnings, but rebol is more complete.
 
mini tangent over
well, I'm interested in learning about red and rebol etc, so I thought just hanging around here would be a good place to start
and alongside that doing "hello world" etc
 
@RebolBot
code: [print ["Yo there," reverse "ychetGMO@"]]
print [{First item is type:} (type? first code) {and value} (mold first code)]
print "Now let's look at the second item... (a block!)"
foreach item second code [
    print [{Item type:} (type? item) {and value} (mold item)]
]
 
yeah, that's fine
 
@RebolBot delete
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
First item is type: word! and value print
Now let's look at the second item... (a block!)
Item type: string! and value "Yo there,"
Item type: word! and value reverse
Item type: string! and value "ychetGMO@"
 
9:52 PM
@OMGtechy You've come to the right place. :-)
 
you're mentioned here :D
So what's your background? I'm guessing you work in software somewhere?
thanks for the code snippet btw, I'll try and parse it with my mind for a bit
 
@OMGtechy On a remote island location, I do a bit of software. hostilefork.com/hire-the-fork
 
full time rebol developer here, hmkdesign.dk
 
> Not actually hostile (just a bit irate.)
 
@OMGtechy I also do the icons around here, which I remain rather proud of.
 
9:55 PM
I can tell :P
@Henrik one man company? I bet that's ... volatile (i.e. you've got no backup)
 
@OMGtechy it is a bit, but I know rebol, and not many people do, so that's an advantage.
as a java or php drone, I would not have a chance
 
@OMGtechy Largest deployed Rebol-using company (that we know of, which we didn't know of until they showed up at a conference): youtu.be/jIw7aRP6JPU?t=84
 
Indeed, it's like being that one MUMPS programmer
So, whilst I'm going to get a biased answer here, what makes the REBOL family so great? :D
@HostileFork thanks :)
 
rebol is dangerous, because once you start getting used to it, other languages become rather painful to use.
 
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